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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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17mika

Bora gulari nacra 17 incident

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Very serious incident for bora

Edit: best source from the front page. http://sailinganarchy.com/

EDIT. I'm trying to get some more info from some moth friends.. it seems like He got cut 3 fingers (hopefully only the top part) from hitting the trailing edge of the daggerboard ina capsize

 

Hope the best for a quick recovery

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I'm so sorry to hear that! Best of luck getting past this, Bora......

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Mika,

  thank you for correcting the inaccuracy of the article: "sailboat rigging" doesn't quite equal "sharp carbon foil". I assumed it was the latter. Speedy recovery Bora.

-Sam

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My thoughts go out for Bora. I hope he can recover his fingers. 

So far I detect 2 inconsistencies from the different sources:

Did he wear full gloves and have the cut extremities remained in them so he may be lucky in the doctors can restate the fingers?

Did he impact the rigging or the trailing edge of the foil?

 

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5 hours ago, pa_ubach said:

My thoughts go out for Bora. I hope he can recover his fingers. 

So far I detect 2 inconsistencies from the different sources:

Did he wear full gloves and have the cut extremities remained in them so he may be lucky in the doctors can restate the fingers?

Did he impact the rigging or the trailing edge of the foil?

 

I don't really know, few friends told me foils; source should be reliable but I'd trust more the USST on the front page.

Still it seems hard to me that rigging (I guess it cannot be less than 3mm?) is able to cut fingers at 20 knots. I can easily believe the trailing edge of a foil can, especially if Bora finishes his nacra foils the same way he does with his moth foils (blooody blades) . We'll know as some more info come; I could easily be wrong.

Most important thing seems that he is not that bad if he expect to sail again in a month :)

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I have the scars from hitting catamaran rigging in capsized. While they can bruise and even cut, slicing fingers off? I find that very very hard to believe. Sharp trailing edges? Absolutely. Years ago in an epic local distance race on Nacra I20's (think 20' floating mode N17), a team member on the lead boat got flung into the back of the daggerboard trailing edge with the board raised at speeds in excess of 20 kts. He was airlifted off the boat to the local hospital and received over 30 stitches in his leg. That is why I'm thinking this was a foil based injury and the PR spin has been applied to keep the N17 Mk. 2 class from facing more public humiliation, most of which I will say is not deserved.

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 It was not the foil. It was traveller rope wrapped around hand. 

 

Big slow down when they came off the foils and stuck the nose in. 

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20 minutes ago, macca said:

 It was not the foil. It was traveller rope wrapped around hand. 

 

Big slow down when they came off the foils and stuck the nose in. 

That mode of injury can be more damaging than a clean slice!

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1 hour ago, macca said:

 It was not the foil. It was traveller rope wrapped around hand. 

 

Big slow down when they came off the foils and stuck the nose in. 

Not good. Time to rethink how you wrap rope around the hand, which I am sure we all do. 

I have heard that the N17's crash off the foils in a very unpredictable way. Story is that you sail along foiling nicely and then the foils ventilate for now apparent reason. Don't know if this is what happened here but it doesn't sound a ideal.

The injury sounds like one of those freak things that you couldn't do again if you tried (which i don't think anybody will be doing). Tough break for Bora at a time when he should be shining. He had given up a fair bit for training in the N17. I hope he is back in action soon.

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6 hours ago, macca said:

 It was not the foil. It was traveller rope wrapped around hand. 

 

Big slow down when they came off the foils and stuck the nose in. 

Thank you Macca for the correction. That is a real problem we should all learn from.

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On 8/31/2017 at 2:15 AM, samc99us said:

Mika,

  thank you for correcting the inaccuracy of the article: "sailboat rigging" doesn't quite equal "sharp carbon foil". I assumed it was the latter. Speedy recovery Bora.

-Sam

 

 

Bora told me it was the traveler line, but he is still a little foggy and groggy and jacked up on pain pills.  

I'll be going to visit him when I get home from the 49er worlds, and we'll talk about the whole thing so I can share it with you guys and his many fans around the world. 

Short update is: He is good mentally, in some pain physically, and still has "most of four fingers".  Bora expects to be back on the water as soon as possible, and is confident he'll be able to cope with the loss of those bits.

Italian coach said it was the foil that cut his hand, but that was also an assumption.  The nature of the wounds was not really consistent with that type of cut, but as I said Bora is still quite fuzzy about it all and we're all hoping to find out if there's any coach video showing exactly what happened.  Bora doesn't want to watch it if there is, but he sure does want to know exactly what happened so he can prevent it in the future.  My suggestion was something I used to use when I was diving for sea urchin and lobster, but if it was indeed line than this wouldn't really be relevant.  Regardless, kevlar is going to be everyone's friend on these boats.

https://dipndive.com/akona-bug-hunter-gloves.html

 

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Traveller car trapping glove?  The only thing I could think of on the boat that could do that.

Get well Bora.

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The problem with accidents like this is that they are freak accidents and it wouldn't surprise me if you could go another 50 years with N17's and never see the same thing happen again. I also don't think it is just N17's that are potentially dangerous. Any foiling boat that is travelling in excess of 22-25 knots has the potential to bite. the question is just how many precautions do you take, and even if you take all you can think of, it's always something nobody has though of that will get you. Short of full armour, there is always a risk of injury. It seems to me that a full wetsuit, a good helmet, eye protection and gloves are the minimum. After that i would go for a body armour PFD such as the Forward sailing one and maybe Foreward WIP padding, there gets to be a point of diminishing returns.

All the best to Bora for a speedy recovery. I know from personal experience how unsettling freak accidents can be and he is doing well not to want to dwell on it. I hope he is back on the water quickly. 

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good luck on the rehab, tough break.

Knew a girl who had her finger tip nipped off by her bodyboard leash in a big wipeout.

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Clean, thanks for following up on this.  Bora may have had the skin pulled off his fingers by the wrap of traveller sheet.  This could just as well happen with the mainsheet wrapped around your hand, in a violent capsize. I think they call it after "debridement" with burned skin. Following from a skin graft article... "Any skin graft must be protected from further trauma, such as being hit, or heavy stretching for at least 2 to 3 weeks".  Nobody needs this traumatic damage.

Owie.  This is not just a blister.  This is a serious injury, probaby much worse than when Randy Smyth got a nasty antibiotic-resistant skin infection from a rope burn on his leg halfway thru the 1998(?) Worrell 1000, winning the race and going straight to the hospital for IV drug treatment.  Kevlar gloves here we come!   My $3 Harbor Freight black rubber gloves are good for ??? 

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A very well known coach had the same injury this spring. Had a thin dyneema bowline wrapped around his fingers, bow of the coach boat went one way, bow of the sailboat went the other. Pretty violent force in opposite directions.   

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Best wishes for your speedy recovery Bora, and thanks for posting here where you and Helena have many fans and supporters.

Regarding Nacra 17 foil trailing edges, I cut my wetsuit boot pretty badly on one of the previous generation ones. I could see cutting your skin pretty badly in the right crash but it's hard to imagine how the forces would work to get you to what happened to Bora. Having said that, I think this is yet another reason it's great the new foils stay down as the helm can't hit the boards from the trailing side in big deceleration.

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On 9/1/2017 at 2:54 AM, bgulari said:

Truth is I was wearing gloves and they got chopped off too and I don't know what exactly happened

Jeez! Back up and typing already!

 

Kick butt, man

 

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On 9/2/2017 at 8:49 PM, dacarls said:

Bora may have had the skin pulled off his fingers by the wrap of traveller sheet.  This could just as well happen with the mainsheet wrapped around your hand, in a violent capsize. I think they call it after "debridement" with burned skin. Following from a skin graft article... "Any skin graft must be protected from further trauma, such as being hit, or heavy stretching for at least 2 to 3 weeks".  Nobody needs this traumatic damage.

My wife is a highly specialized ICU burn and an Officer In Charge (OIC) of one of the units at the Army's Institute of Surgical Research, pulling the skin off with a line wrapped around it is a "degloving" injury.  She's shown me pictures and described injuries that she's dealt with in person... gives me nightmares, lol.  Debridement is when the clean the site by scrubbing in order to remove dirt and dead tissue, etc.

Having seen the Facebook post that Helena put up of Bora's right hand... was that the glove he was wearing during the accident, or just one that's been modified?... if you know what I mean

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That is the same type of glove, the one I was wearing in the incedient had full fingers at the beginning of the day.  

I cut the tips off that one as everything between the pinky and the thumb is a bit shorter now

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Sad stuff. Going by Bulgaris description it sounds like an amputation(multiple). Now,whats the best gloves in this situation? Sawmills now have revised glove material where there is risk of being dragged into a machine by a kevlar/extremely strong glove. Rubber is now used so this doesnt happen.Same with bandsaws in butcher shops.Better to get a cut or abrasion rather than lose a body part. There is a place for gloves with kevlar/cut resistant materials on the palm surface and other relatively weak material on the back which can breakaway when needed. Dyneema(UHMWPE) is a fantastic material but its uses need to be modified as the cross sectional area means it cuts like a knife when under extreme pressure and speed. Solution when sitting out trapezing-one for those more experienced.

Triple Jack rebuild. What are the guys doing under the boat suspended by a crane truck?I understand what happens in situations but there is a simple rule about getting under a suspended load...........DONT..........Tag lines could have been used easily in this situationCheers Bottman

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Bora your bravery is shining through. Acceptance is the first part of recovery and you are getting there rapidly. Next step is learning the tricks to overcome your injury. There will be difficult times initially, as you will now be aware, but I recall the words of an old farmer I once looked after when I first started nursing when I expressed some doubt about my ability.He said you only have to learn one new skill a day and you will be thirty things smarter each month. Cheers, Bottman or as Smiley Williams (Williams Cranes and rigging)says jib up.

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Hi Bora. Have been playing with dyneema for some time my latest invention is threading dyneema or other rope  inside the piece in use to make it easier to grip. You can fatten a sheet up so that you can grip it or make it able to be used in cleats. Another invention is to dip the end of dyneema in epoxy or super glue , it can then be successfully bolted to equipment. I devoleped this when making a quadrant for the steering on Bullfrog and could not easily attach the dyneema. Works extremely well with no creep at the fitting. Havent tried this with DUX only on a cheaper generic variety.Dux has a chemical coating which may affect glues. Will send photos. Have developed a few pieces of equipment for hospital use over the years and dyneema has opened up a whole new world with its strength and size. Jib up, cheers bottman. PS, need more ideas to make sailing safer as the speed of the boats combined with the growing number of fast boats = more accidents

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10 hours ago, juniordave nz said:

Some people mount cleats to the cross bar on their harness. Seems to work ok for some.

Those are used for chicken lines that run fore and aft on the boat, NOT for cleating sails. Its not advisable to cleat the main or kite on a high performance boat like a Nacra 17, and chicken lines are generally too cumbersome for use in buoy racing.

My biggest takeaway from this is its generally best to use 8mm line for sheets, they can be tapered inside the blocks but I have a hard time believing an 8mm line is going to do serious damage to a hand on a dinghy (big boat on a winch is a different story). Boras traveler control line is 5mm if its the line I believe it is (FSE Robline PolyTech, available in 3.5mm and 5mm sizes). Dropping line size to save a few grams isn't a worthwhile trade IMO, but I'm not the pro.

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Smaller line size isn't just about weight. For a given block size, the thinner the line, the easier and quicker it goes through the block (until you get to around 1mm when it starts to jam in the cheeks…).

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Was the size of the rope the real issue? I didn't think it was a garroting injury because that would have led to the bone shattering. I thought the wrap around his hand got jammed and pulled his fingers off when he flew forward.

I have had a situation like that where the wrap of the mainsheet around my hand has become jammed by something like a riding turn and that was with a normal mainsheet thickness. It just kept pulling tighter and wouldn't unjam. If I had been thrown forward with force, it would have lead to a serious injury. From what I understood, when Bora was thrown forward, the knuckle joints took that load and failed, and the fingers were pulled off at the knuckle.

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Was the size of the rope the real issue?

I doubt it. I jumped off a yacht onto a jetty once with a 10mm mooring line made from old poly mainsheet in my hand. Somehow it looped around my middle finger and half way through the jump, while in mid air, it pulled tight and tried to de–glove my finger. Fortunately, I was wearing gloves so I was literally de–gloved. Sore but with digits intact, it was a lucky escape.

If 10mm rope can do that, I expect anything on a Nacra 17 can too.

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On 14/12/2017 at 4:42 AM, juniordave nz said:

Some people mount cleats to the cross bar on their harness. Seems to work ok for some.

You are perfectly right JuniorDave NZ,

The A-Cat world champion in 1996, had a pulley winch at the middle of the trampoline, like today's standard,  without cleat, and he had two big cleats on each side of his trapeze belt.

In addition his trapeze line was as simple as possible, so to change his height, he unhook from one position to hook to the other one, that is when the cleats on the trapeze belt were useful, AFAIR.

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3 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

You are perfectly right JuniorDave NZ,

The A-Cat world champion in 1996, had a pulley winch at the middle of the trampoline, like today's standard,  without cleat, and he had two big cleats on each side of his trapeze belt.

In addition his trapeze line was as simple as possible, so to change his height, he unhook from one position to hook to the other one, that is when the cleats on the trapeze belt were useful, AFAIR.

I stand corrected on that front. Good idea for an A. I'm still not sure how practical that is on a 2 man boat.

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10 hours ago, RobG said:

Smaller line size isn't just about weight. For a given block size, the thinner the line, the easier and quicker it goes through the block (until you get to around 1mm when it starts to jam in the cheeks…).

Yes, that is common knowledge, and why there are tapered sheets. 8mm line runs just fine through 2-3 57mm blocks. I won't disagree that any line can do serious damage to a persons hand if held incorrectly and heavily loaded. My point with using thicker line is it is easier to grip without a wrap around the hand.

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