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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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From this one (more speculation)

.. Awaiting official announcements for a few days, there are numerous rumors about the competition that comes: we talk about the nationality of team members, the choice of single-hulled foil and the possibility - all to be checked - to play the final stages not in New Zealand but in Europe, favorite destination by sponsors.

http://www.velaveneta.it/2017/09/17/americas-cup-addio-alla-louis-vuitton-cup-arriva-la-prada-cup/

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11 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Ok...here are my guess estimates what I think will be in the new Protocol:

# 1 The Venue for the 36th AC will be Auckland...quite obvious :D

# 2 The Boat will be a monohull...quite obvious :D

# 3 Every Challenger will be allowed to built two boats.

# 4 There won't be any AC-related Racing (Events) until the 2nd Half of 2018 or the first half of 2019 (Acts). AC Boats will be used for that.

# 5 The Nationality Requirement will be around 70% or higher.

# 5 The Period (Time Frame) to challenge for the 36th AC will open early next year.

So it's definite that you're not leaving after all?

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

From this one (more speculation)

.. Awaiting official announcements for a few days, there are numerous rumors about the competition that comes: we talk about the nationality of team members, the choice of single-hulled foil and the possibility - all to be checked - to play the final stages not in New Zealand but in Europe, favorite destination by sponsors.

http://www.velaveneta.it/2017/09/17/americas-cup-addio-alla-louis-vuitton-cup-arriva-la-prada-cup/

If they mean that the A.C. match will be held in Europe then they are dreaming.

Only way that would happen is if Auckland acted like a bunch of cunts. Actually....

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4 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

So it's definite that you're not leaving after all?

It's like the old saying SBD: "Quitting smoking is easy. I've done it heaps of times!"

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15 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

In Italian, speculation that LV is out, replaced by Prada.

Hmm :huh:

Challengers running their own Challenger series is good but not entirely sure as a potential Challenger I'd be happy to see the sponsor of CoR as title sponsor though.

Definitely better not be full title sponsor like LV had last time with Prada logos on wing/sails during the AC Match.

 

11 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

# 1 The Venue for the 36th AC will be Auckland...quite obvious :D

# 2 The Boat will be a monohull...quite obvious :D

# 3 Every Challenger will be allowed to built two boats.

# 4 There won't be any AC-related Racing (Events) until the 2nd Half of 2018 or the first half of 2019 (Acts). AC Boats will be used for that.

# 5 The Nationality Requirement will be around 70% or higher.

# 5 The Period (Time Frame) to challenge for the 36th AC will open early next year.

# 7 ETNZ won't get to build more boats than the other teams

# 8 ETNZ won't be anywhere near the Challenger series

# 9 No 'Bonus Points'

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I think one bonus point will be on the table for the defender if the challenging skipper is a ginger. Would seem only fair. 8)

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24 minutes ago, Nutta said:

I think one bonus point will be on the table for the defender if the challenging skipper is a ginger. Would seem only fair. 8)

Didn't help the last one at all. Why bother?

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Purely for spite. 

 

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1 hour ago, Nutta said:

Purely for spite. 

 

Is spite necessary/desirable after you've just handed out a total humiliation? 

Yeah. Maybe you're right. ;)

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It's not necessary, nor an admirable quality to wish ill fortune upon the defeated/humiliated, however I'll just have to live with my weakness... 8P

 

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3 hours ago, hoom said:

Hmm :huh:

Challengers running their own Challenger series is good but not entirely sure as a potential Challenger I'd be happy to see the sponsor of CoR as title sponsor though.

Definitely better not be full title sponsor like LV had last time with Prada logos on wing/sails during the AC Match.

 

Maybe Louis Vuitton will be the main AC36 Sponsor - now that would fire up Bertelli!!

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Here's an idea...

Have the Defender seek sponsorship for the supposedly 'team-neutral' and very marketable AC, then take same for themselves and for a poodle team as well!?

All perfectly legit apparently.....

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Have a feeling that these boats will be quite a bit  more conservative than many think. Probably something like the maxi 72's with some enhanced features to make it faster down wind. I think that they want to ensure that they can sail in a real breeze with swell

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On 9/15/2017 at 3:40 PM, nav said:

PB said monos, monos it is, the rest is clearly still being worked out by those best fit, so Protocol in September, with some ACClass generalities - details to follow.....

Alles klar?

...... to follow in November

+ La Stampa confirming lots of wrong guesses....

The finals for the Cup will be in Auckland in 2021. Various countries will host pre-America’s Cup racing: when and with which yachts?  

«In 2019 and 2020, with the same yachts as the finals». 

.....

But that way you lost the advantage acquired with the catamarans.  

«Let me start by saying that we believe our design team is capable of giving us another great yacht, and that catamarans wouldn’t be ideal for the chop in Auckland. But I want it to be clear that winning the America’s Cup is a privilege, a privilege that includes the duty to safeguard it’s sporting value. That comes before individual advantage». 

.....

What kind of America’s Cup will it be?  

«Fair, with clear rules. And for the general public. Not alienating like Bermuda, there even the sailors didn’t understand what was going on». 

So that sounds like new RRS - or just use the same ones as every other sailor

 

*good scoop SR

 

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1 hour ago, nav said:

«In 2019 and 2020, with the same yachts as the finals». 

Suggests (non) surrogate boats will not be part of the early events; and that some new boats will launch as early as 2019.

May even suggest 1 boat allowed per team, depending if on he meant 'yacht' as opposed to 'yacht class.'

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4 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

No, it will be much like AC 34 where we had a heap of Teams early and one-by-one they withdrew leaving only 3 Challengers to contest the LVC.

Disagree because most of the teams who raced AC45's in Plymouth, something like 12 of them, had no money and likely didn't even pay for their boats.

If teams show up with AC36 built-up boats, they are already serious.

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20 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Stingers,

Luna Rossa IMO has been given too much leverage over AC 36 for my liking. What do you think?

I wanted to keep pressing the tech edge with foiling multi's, so I'm disappointed. But even if it was a big $ell-out by GD to P$B I am open-minded and actually guardedly optimistic about the new boat GV is designing and, as importantly, the coming Protocol.

I've also come around to thinking that even 4 good quality teams would be plenty fun to watch. News, promotion and current info on teams is so readily available nowadays that the 6 in Bermuda was almost overkill, for close-followers.

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3 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I trend to agree. While AC 32 for example was spectacular Areva, + 39, UITG and China Team were just making up Numbers. I'd rather have 5 or 6 Challengers who are really good providing close Racing than 8-10 Teams with the bottom 4 only making up Numbers.

Encouragingly, de Noro has expressed that same sentiment.

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2 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Luna Rossa IMO has been given too much leverage over AC 36 for my liking. What do you think?

How dare the CoR be strong!

We must have conformity & strongly Defender biased rules that are so warped even sailors have a hard time understanding how/where that 'bonus point' penalty happened :angry:

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36 minutes ago, hoom said:

How dare the CoR be strong!

We must have conformity & strongly Defender biased rules that are so warped even sailors have a hard time understanding how/where that 'bonus point' penalty happened :angry:

The move back to monohulls was a sellout by a financial goldfish to a financial shark. P$B announced it, very explicitly.

It may work out but I think GD and Russell Greene should be a little nervous about what they are now facing. P$B was for example insistant that the Protocol will be provided on the promised time, September. And that guy is a hard-ass..

 

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Oh noes! Can't have important documents released on time <_<

Must have huge delays & lots of late Defender favouring rule changes!

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Just now, hoom said:

Oh noes! Can't have important documents released on time <_<

Must have huge delays & lots of late Defender favouring rule changes!

Yes, early is good, let's hope it happens on schedule.

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Come on guys and gals GD wanted mono's so the fact that P$B wanted the same in return for $ and expertise is no great bend over on GD's part. What's the big deal? FFS get a grip.

 

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21 minutes ago, kiwi777 said:

I think GD wants to do the VOR and win it because he hasn't. So making AC36 boats close to the VOR's as possible would give him a good head start

 

^ Oh yeah? Maybe you should tell him to give his trophy back, I'll hold you coat.....

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Yacht Racing Forum posted this on Facebook:

Grant Dalton on the next America's Cup:

-Fair, with clear rules. And for the general public. Not alienating like Bermuda, there even the sailors didn’t understand what was going on.

-Large and powerful monohulls, a development class.

-Grinders are coming back.

-The Deed of Gift requires that mutual consent be the basis for working with the challenger’s representatives. Only that, dazed by years of the defender’s regime, and with marionettes as Challengers of Record, we had lost sight of this.

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On 9/18/2017 at 6:36 PM, nav said:

...... to follow in November

+ La Stampa confirming lots of wrong guesses....

The finals for the Cup will be in Auckland in 2021. Various countries will host pre-America’s Cup racing: when and with which yachts?  

«In 2019 and 2020, with the same yachts as the finals». 

.....

But that way you lost the advantage acquired with the catamarans.  

«Let me start by saying that we believe our design team is capable of giving us another great yacht, and that catamarans wouldn’t be ideal for the chop in Auckland. But I want it to be clear that winning the America’s Cup is a privilege, a privilege that includes the duty to safeguard it’s sporting value. That comes before individual advantage». 

.....

What kind of America’s Cup will it be?  

«Fair, with clear rules. And for the general public. Not alienating like Bermuda, there even the sailors didn’t understand what was going on». 

So that sounds like new RRS - or just use the same ones as every other sailor

 

*good scoop SR

 

 

^ SR posted a link direct to the original LA Stampa interview Rennie

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3 minutes ago, nav said:

 

^ SR posted a link direct to the original LA Stampa interview Rennie

Thanks, I've hidden my double post (the delete function is gone since the "upgrade")

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The English translation at La Stampa was online before the Italian version and since the English has marionettes instead of puppets then the Italian may be closer to accurate. At FV somewhere, Michelle T wrote in his translation that GD's response about early-event races specified using the same Yacht Class whereas the widely-quoted La Stampa English one did not.

Even though we will hear by the 28th, 29th NZ time, I am mildly curious if the original in Italian implied 'Class' because the distinction could imply a lot about how boat development is supposed to happen if only one, versus more, boats can be built.

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18 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Yacht Racing Forum posted this on Facebook:

Grant Dalton on the next America's Cup:

-Fair, with clear rules. And for the general public. Not alienating like Bermuda, there even the sailors didn’t understand what was going on.

-Large and powerful monohulls, a development class.

-Grinders are coming back.

-The Deed of Gift requires that mutual consent be the basis for working with the challenger’s representatives. Only that, dazed by years of the defender’s regime, and with marionettes as Challengers of Record, we had lost sight of this.

I love each and every one of these words...

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^ please DW, you belittle yourself by griping about matters not even close to fruition.

Save your venom until the show starts and there are facts, then your considered opinion will carry much more weight as counterpoint.

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15 minutes ago, barfy said:

^ please DW, you belittle yourself by griping about matters not even close to fruition.

Save your venom until the show starts and there are facts, then your considered opinion will carry much more weight as counterpoint.

Barfy,

3JRKOBJQ6jxx.jpg

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Monohull - 75 feet, design details revealed Nov 30. Teams can run two boats.
Nationality - Citizenship defined 20% of sailors must be from one country – Rest of sailing team must meet strict criteria of residents of 380 days in country from 1 Sep 2018 to 1st Sep 2020
Event - Intent is Auckland, 2021 - but no infrastructure exists. Must start by mid next year. No host city agreement.
Pre-regattas - Events in 2019, 2020 in the AmCup race boats. Challenger series will be organised by Challenger of Record (Luna Rossa)

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2 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

20% Nationality Requirement for Sailors is a joke. Changes a lot for Oracle.

AC 35 had 25%

Nationality plus residency

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3 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

So it looks like if for example Slingsby wants to sail for an American Team he has to get a Green Card to compete in AC 36.

No he doesn't. He just needs an athlete visa that we give out like candy and are usually good for 5 years.  

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That nationality rule is really smart from ETNZ means they can select any crew they want and train on the eventual race course while other teams have to choose between having imports or training in NZ.

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The nationality rule is a joke that gives ETNZ a huge advantage. Think about it. If you have 100% citizens from 1 country, you can set up a base in Auckland or wherever the event is going to take place from day 1 and base the team at the venue. If your sailors need to gain residency, you cannot.

ETNZ will race their race boat against the challengers. they have been clear on that. Sure, they won't sail against them in the challenger series, but having first gauged the performance of the opposition, they then have the time of the challenger series to modify and test their boat.

I hate one design elements in a boat but they will keep that. 2 boats adds to the costs but i guess with a new class it is unavoidable. I bet we see cyclors as well.

I find it very uncomfortable that Prada is the title sponsor. How much due diligence has been done to be sure they are the best option? I think as trustees RNZYS have a duty to do that.

I also couldn't help note that they kept refering to ETNZ as the defender and LR as the Challenger of Record. Considering how much BS there was about preserving the inegrity of teh Cup, you would have hopes they could get that right. It is the clubs, not the teams!

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Um... because the challengers get to participate in the Prada Cup? 

I mean... Teams are all allowed to build the same number of boats so at least that's fair. A recent event seemed to leave a lot of leeway for the Defender and questions re whether partially funded subsidiaries were really independent or two boat testing partners or boat 2. 

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Wouldn't loose to much sleep over it. With the ability to capture data these days limiting the times 2 boats form a team can sail in the vicinity of each other is meaningless.

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Nationality rule a little stiffer than I would have guessed. Good on them though. (A bit confusing; it's 20% citizens + the remaining 80% doing 380 days residency - so 100% have some level of requirement). I'd think the 380 days might be a bit challenging even for well-meaning mercenaries given that they are probably travelling with other regattas (Volvo etc) and then from summer 2019 they'll need to spend a lot of time in Auckland.

No Constructed in Country mentioned? And no questions about it? Did I miss something? Or would that be expected to be part of the design rule.

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Also, +1 that having the COR as the title sponsor is a bit suss. The Louis Vuitton Cup is quite a tradition by now.

And the party starting in Auckland from late 2019 with super high tech 75 footers - brilliant, can't wait.

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51 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Why is that disappointing?

Because it removes a lot of the uncertainty of who has the fastest boat.

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Just now, Miffy said:

Um... because the challengers get to participate in the Prada Cup? 

 

The key being race, that means taking less risk in terms of which boats to 'race test' as you still have to win to making through the challenger series.

It'll likely have an impact on the design choices of the teams right from the start, with NZ giving the opportunity to build 2 very similar boats and tune them up against each other where as the other teams will have to look at evolution with their second boat.

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Looks like they have brought back spectator seats for billionaires during racing  - good move from a fundraising point of view

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13 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

The nationality rule is a joke that gives ETNZ a huge advantage. Think about it. If you have 100% citizens from 1 country, you can set up a base in Auckland or wherever the event is going to take place from day 1 and base the team at the venue. If your sailors need to gain residency, you cannot.

ETNZ will race their race boat against the challengers. they have been clear on that. Sure, they won't sail against them in the challenger series, but having first gauged the performance of the opposition, they then have the time of the challenger series to modify and test their boat.

I hate one design elements in a boat but they will keep that. 2 boats adds to the costs but i guess with a new class it is unavoidable. I bet we see cyclors as well.

I find it very uncomfortable that Prada is the title sponsor. How much due diligence has been done to be sure they are the best option? I think as trustees RNZYS have a duty to do that.

I also couldn't help note that they kept refering to ETNZ as the defender and LR as the Challenger of Record. Considering how much BS there was about preserving the inegrity of teh Cup, you would have hopes they could get that right. It is the clubs, not the teams!

Oh dear, the whinging Pom as usual has mouthed off before the brain engages. Read the summary of the Protocol below and feel free to wipe that white stuff off your face

170929_AC36_Protocol_Media_Summary.pdf

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35 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Proper starts! Thank fucking god

+1. We may even get proper wind limits and courses.

Countries that have spent time and effort developing homegrown sailing talent should do well.

Definately expect an Aussie challenager or two.  

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+1 on the nationality rule being a joke

Focusing on sailors only? Meh. Not real national teams on that basis.

 

.. Also, if it does head for Italy I wonder what the EU will make of that in terms of restraint of trade

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6 minutes ago, eurochild said:

 

No Constructed in Country mentioned? And no questions about it? Did I miss something? Or would that be expected to be part of the design rule.

1

The Yacht Construction
• The requirement for a yacht to be constructed in the country of its yacht club is a
fundamental principle of the Deed of Gift and this Protocol returns to the rule in previous
America’s Cup cycles requiring the lamination of the hulls of the race boats to be
undertaken in the competitors own country.

!
• All other components including the decks, masts, appendages, fittings are free to be
manufactured anywhere.

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48 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Pretty smart negotiating move to Auckland - put up or we're going to Italy.

I wonder if Ashby's absence is telling?

He's with  the Swiss challenge

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4 minutes ago, Indio said:

The Yacht Construction

Thanks Indio, was just reading same. That just seems to step back to the circa 2000 expectations so nothing too dramatic. Should still provide plenty of opportunity for people in Warkworth I'd think.

One other thing in the dates is that the Challenger entry cutoff is in June, ahead of the venue confirmation cutoff in August, though it says 31 Dec 2018 for "Late entries close"

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17 minutes ago, rgeek said:

With the ability to capture data these days limiting the times 2 boats form a team can sail in the vicinity of each other is meaningless.

Presume that's re "Each competitor is only permitted to sail one boat at a time... [except the defender during the challenger series]".

What's the thinking there (re the first part not the defender part), trying to even the playing field for 2 vs 1 boat challenges?

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3 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I'm asking that myself too. And no testing with Computer Simulations, Wind Tunnels, etc.

This is junk by the Defender.

 

???? Where did you see this? Thought it said no wind tunnel/fluid tank testing. Computer simulation was allowed?

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There was no tank testing or wind tunnel allowed last time either. God - breath thru your nose man !

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9 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

???? Where did you see this? Thought it said no wind tunnel/fluid tank testing. Computer simulation was allowed?

Ignore him he's fucking retarded... ETNZ specifically stated that CFD is the only way permitted to test (ie computer simulations). Real world tank/tunnel testing is banned due to the cost/access making it something that can give big budgets a massive advantage.

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AUCKLAND (Reuters) - The next America's Cup regatta will be sailed in Auckland in 2021 in 75-foot monohull yachts but only if New Zealand's largest city can build the infrastructure needed to stage the regatta, holders Team New Zealand said on Friday.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/09/29/americas-cup-could-move-italy-if-auckland-not-ready

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

The nationality rule is a joke that gives ETNZ a huge advantage. Think about it. If you have 100% citizens from 1 country, you can set up a base in Auckland or wherever the event is going to take place from day 1 and base the team at the venue. If your sailors need to gain residency, you cannot.

Precisely! This is the point - use real existing local talent and there is zero problem, or try and import talent and be ready to jump through hoops to make it work in time.

Seems like a pretty ingenious way of stopping teams getting around typical nationality rules by handing out visa/passports as a mere formality.

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At https://www.odt.co.nz/sport/sailing/americas-cup-could-be-held-italy

Key dates:
30th November 2017: AC75 Class concepts released to key stakeholders
1st January 2018: Entries for Challengers Open
31st March 2018: AC75 Class Rule published
30th June 2018: Entries for Challengers Close
31st August 2018: Location of the America's Cup Match & The PRADA Cup confirmed
31st August 2018: Specific race course area confirmed
31st December 2018: Late entries Deadline
31st March 2019: Boat 1 can be launched
2nd half of 2019: 2 x America's Cup World Series Preliminary Events
1st February 2020: Boat 2 can be launched
2020: 3 x America's Cup World Series Preliminary Events
10th-20th December 2020: America's Cup Christmas Race
January & February 2021: The PRADA Cup Challenger Selection Series
March 2021: The America's Cup Match

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23 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Ignore him he's fucking retarded... ETNZ specifically stated that CFD is the only way permitted to test (ie computer simulations). Real world tank/tunnel testing is banned due to the cost/access making it something that can give big budgets a massive advantage.

It mainly gives massive advantage to the team able to test 2 boats in real conditions, that means the defender.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Most probably no foiling start, we come back to the old mono upwind start.

I'd understand your displeasure if catamarans were possible under the class rules. But since they're not... I hardly see upwind as being bad?

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5 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Precisely! This is the point - use real existing local talent and there is zero problem, or try and import talent and be ready to jump through hoops to make it work in time.

Seems like a pretty ingenious way of stopping teams getting around typical nationality rules by handing out visa/passports as a mere formality.

Except it will take a year for them to have a boat ready to sail and etnz turned up 4 months before the cup and crushed everyone. 

Ruh roh! 

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It mainly gives massive advantage to the team able to test 2 boats in real conditions, that means the defender.

Possibly - but it all depends on how good your simulation tech is - seems ETNZ did fine with just one boat whilst the others had much more comparison time together and Oracle/SoftBank basically had a 2-boat setup ;-)

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On 9/20/2017 at 0:27 AM, nav said:

 

^ Oh yeah? Maybe you should tell him to give his trophy back, I'll hold you coat.....

Your right of course he won the super maxi part in 93 in Endeavor however the official Whitbread cup that year was the 60 footers. Just like now it's the VOR 65 however if Comanche took part in it I'm sure she would win line honours. Doesn't count for the real cup though.

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Except it will take a year for them to have a boat ready to sail and etnz turned up 4 months before the cup and crushed everyone. 

Ruh roh! 

Weren't you among those who thought Luna Rossa owned the cup victory and ETNZ was just a puppet challenger? Why would LR agree to rules that you seem to suggest the Kiwis would default to victory?

 

I guess I'm struggling to understand the arguments - because basically they don't seem internally consistent...

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