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AC 36 Protocol

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Marian, and she never let on that she had very personal connections with Alinghi...

I always knew she was the third part of the EB-RC-?? love triangle :D

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2 minutes ago, ezyb said:

I always knew she was the third part of the EB-RC-?? love triangle :D

No chance - Did you ever see a photo of her? She was pretty frail when she passed, sadly.

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Marian, and she never let on that she had very personal connections with Alinghi...

Marian had personal connections with many in the world wide sailing community..you once asked for an in to EB, forgetting that you had got all up in his business in FL and promoted the story that Russel had fucked EB's wife...

She had had an intense dislike of clean, she said she had proof that clean was hacking her SA IM account and towards the end would only use email...

I see down thread that spinbot is making comments on her appearance, but then you have to remember that he and his elk had taken to referring to her as a hag and a cunt..it was pretty nasty around here if you had an opinion different to the oracalites...

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23 hours ago, ro! said:

Marian had personal connections with many in the world wide sailing community..you once asked for an in to EB, forgetting that you had got all up in his business in FL and promoted the story that Russel had fucked EB's wife...

She had had an intense dislike of clean, she said she had proof that clean was hacking her SA IM account and towards the end would only use email...

I see down thread that spinbot is making comments on her appearance, but then you have to remember that he and his elk had taken to referring to her as a hag and a cunt..it was pretty nasty around here if you had an opinion different to the oracalites...

Totally agree. Aside of her being an inconditional EB defender, she was awfully treated by Clean.

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On 13/10/2017 at 9:56 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

Marian, and she never let on that she had very personal connections with Alinghi...

Yes she was a rogue. As I said, she just lifted stuff I wrote verbatim  for her site without asking me or even telling me. I still miss her.

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On 10/13/2017 at 11:35 PM, ro! said:

I see down thread that spinbot is making comments on her appearance, but then you have to remember that he and his elk had taken to referring to her as a hag and a cunt..it was pretty nasty around here if you had an opinion different to the oracalites...

There is only one person I can think of that felt so negativity towards Marian that he would of called her names, and he had no qualms about using foul language to make a point, was good old Gusmus.  But his issue with Marian, if I remember correctly, is she hired Gus to work for BYM during AC32 in Valencia and she terminated their business relationship at one point in the middle of AC32.  I believe their editorial opinions did not jibe and their may have also been an issue with unpaid debts.  Far from a bunch of Oraclites using vulgar terms directed at Marian.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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12 minutes ago, WetHog said:

There is only one person I can remember that felt so negativity towards Marian that he would of called her names, and he had no qualms about using foul language to make a point, was good old Gusmus.  But his issue with Marian, if I remember correctly, is she hired Gus to work for BYM during AC32 in Valencia and she terminated their business relationship at one point in the middle of AC32.  I believe their editorial opinions did not jibe and their may have also been an issue with unpaid debts.  Far from a bunch of Oraclites using vulgar terms directed at Marian.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

She actually called me for that job... But I couldn't because my boss wouldn't give me the free days needed to go to Valencia  so I called a friend of mine who was living there and he did the job... He even got an article published in our mythical FP.

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On 10/13/2017 at 11:35 PM, ro! said:

she said she had proof that clean was hacking her SA IM account and towards the end would only use email...

 

Wow she really was losing it at the end, I never heard that particular bit of paranoid delusion, but that wasn't the only one.

 

She was also convinced that Tracy Edwards was trying to take down BYM the same way some other guy was trying to take down SA (with Marian's help).   Not sure how many other boogeymen were going after poor Marian.  

 

 

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On 10/14/2017 at 10:54 PM, jorge said:

Totally agree. Aside of her being an inconditional EB defender, she was awfully treated by Clean.

That's because she was a liar, and someone who passed along information she had promised would be confidential.  Sorry, no love for those who break their word.

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8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Yes she was a rogue. As I said, she just lifted stuff I wrote verbatim  for her site without asking me or even telling me. I still miss her.

You say rogue, I say unethical liar, and you added to it thief and plagiarist.

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8 hours ago, WetHog said:

There is only one person I can think of that felt so negativity towards Marian that he would of called her names, and he had no qualms about using foul language to make a point, was good old Gusmus.  But his issue with Marian, if I remember correctly, is she hired Gus to work for BYM during AC32 in Valencia and she terminated their business relationship at one point in the middle of AC32.  I believe their editorial opinions did not jibe and their may have also been an issue with unpaid debts.  Far from a bunch of Oraclites using vulgar terms directed at Marian.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Gussie and Marian had thier dispute and I think there was blame on both sides, but the real vitriol was from the west coast maf who hated her for defending EB, and couldn't believe that EB was not the only arsehole in his dispute with lazza and Russ...

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Wow she really was losing it at the end, I never heard that particular bit of paranoid delusion, but that wasn't the only one.

 

She was also convinced that Tracy Edwards was trying to take down BYM the same way some other guy was trying to take down SA (with Marian's help).   Not sure how many other boogeymen were going after poor Marian.  

 

 

There was nothing wrong with her mind when she died, as for lying that's rich coming from you, you've been conservative with the truth since you first showed up here...and revising history is your MO..

poor marian indeed..

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A one off post, to set the record straight.

Very few warned of the evils of Larry Ellison when he went after Alinghi and Ernesto Bertarelli. Everybody who did was seriously abused and accused of being both an Alinghi supporter and an apologist. Of that few, Marion was the only one who I can recall who really was a supporter and apologist, because she had an agenda and relationship she never disclosed. Clean is right that she couldn't be trusted, she dealt in mistruths (the original "false news"?) and was actually very bitter and didn't trust many, if any. But for all her faults, Marion was right about 2 people, Ellison and MSP, both of whom were touted as saviors of the AC and both of them were shown to be anything but. She deserves some credit for that.

The few I remember warning that there was no difference between Ellison and Berarelli were Marion, Dogwatch and myself. I am sure there were a couple of others, so sorry for not name checking them, but it was very, very few. 

The other big thing I remember was Spinbot and his promise that if Larry ever pulled any of the tricks that EB was accused of, he would be just as vigerous in his condemnation as he was against EB. That never happened. Shame on him.

FWIW, I believe that Clean was also in the camp of not trusting Ellison's intentions.

My final thought is that we now have a new defender and COR. Some are already suspicious and some are already totally blind to anything that may be wrong. The reality of the AC is that there will never be a perfect defender and there will always be mistakes. The reality is always in the event itself and AC34 was pretty special. AC35 was interesting for me but I suspect far less interesting for many. How AC36 will be judged will be interesting and I am pretty open minded about it. I think it is possible to hav spectacular monohulls, but I wonder how you do it and still get good match racing. However, I also suspect that match racing is way over rated in the AC and there have been very few occasions, if any, when proper match racing decided the AC. I will check back in after 2021 to see what the judgement is.

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59 minutes ago, SimonN said:

A one off post, to set the record straight.

Very few warned of the evils of Larry Ellison when he went after Alinghi and Ernesto Bertarelli. Everybody who did was seriously abused and accused of being both an Alinghi supporter and an apologist. Of that few, Marion was the only one who I can recall who really was a supporter and apologist, because she had an agenda and relationship she never disclosed. Clean is right that she couldn't be trusted, she dealt in mistruths (the original "false news"?) and was actually very bitter and didn't trust many, if any. But for all her faults, Marion was right about 2 people, Ellison and MSP, both of whom were touted as saviors of the AC and both of them were shown to be anything but. She deserves some credit for that.

The few I remember warning that there was no difference between Ellison and Berarelli were Marion, Dogwatch and myself. I am sure there were a couple of others, so sorry for not name checking them, but it was very, very few. 

The other big thing I remember was Spinbot and his promise that if Larry ever pulled any of the tricks that EB was accused of, he would be just as vigerous in his condemnation as he was against EB. That never happened. Shame on him.

FWIW, I believe that Clean was also in the camp of not trusting Ellison's intentions.

My final thought is that we now have a new defender and COR. Some are already suspicious and some are already totally blind to anything that may be wrong. The reality of the AC is that there will never be a perfect defender and there will always be mistakes. The reality is always in the event itself and AC34 was pretty special. AC35 was interesting for me but I suspect far less interesting for many. How AC36 will be judged will be interesting and I am pretty open minded about it. I think it is possible to hav spectacular monohulls, but I wonder how you do it and still get good match racing. However, I also suspect that match racing is way over rated in the AC and there have been very few occasions, if any, when proper match racing decided the AC. I will check back in after 2021 to see what the judgement is.

Nice to see you SimonN. 

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We might as well talk about Marian, there's fuck-all AC news and won't be until late November when there is further information about the boat.

This is what I wrote after her death was announced. I still quite like it.

I believe we should mourn the dead the way they'd want to be mourned, and we don't need to be too reverential about Marian. She liked a discussion. Actually she liked a bloody good argument. Like, it seems, many here, I was in PM discussion with Marian at times and I once asked her why she persisted here in the face of so much hostility. She said she wanted to present the truth as she saw it and counter the bias of this forum: ironically her own evident bias made few receptive to her arguments.

Having written some nice words about her a couple of months ago following the second "retirement" of BYM News, I'd smiled as she set out on yet another "farewell tour" but alas this time it really was her final fling.

I'd like to picture her right now on a cloud with George Schulyer, asking him why he made such a hash of writing the DoG. Unfortunately this time she won't be posting a link back to a BYM News article on her findings and nobody will be boasting (and lying) about not reading it. Goodbye Marian, it will be duller without you.

 

From this thread, SAAC at its best and worst.

 

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

We might as well talk about Marian, there's fuck-all AC news and won't be until late November when there is further information about the boat.

This is what I wrote after her death was announced. I still quite like it.

I believe we should mourn the dead the way they'd want to be mourned, and we don't need to be too reverential about Marian. She liked a discussion. Actually she liked a bloody good argument. Like, it seems, many here, I was in PM discussion with Marian at times and I once asked her why she persisted here in the face of so much hostility. She said she wanted to present the truth as she saw it and counter the bias of this forum: ironically her own evident bias made few receptive to her arguments.

Having written some nice words about her a couple of months ago following the second "retirement" of BYM News, I'd smiled as she set out on yet another "farewell tour" but alas this time it really was her final fling.

I'd like to picture her right now on a cloud with George Schulyer, asking him why he made such a hash of writing the DoG. Unfortunately this time she won't be posting a link back to a BYM News article on her findings and nobody will be boasting (and lying) about not reading it. Goodbye Marian, it will be duller without you.

 

From this thread, SAAC at its best and worst.

 

Thanks for the link...hope most of the old 'friends" in that thread are still healthy and will hopefully return for the AC36 threads...

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22 minutes ago, Indio said:

hope most of the old 'friends" in that thread are still healthy and will hopefully return for the AC36 threads..

Wow, I just read the thread and checked some of the old SA'rs profiles, some haven't showed up around here for a long time...

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4 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Wow, I just read the thread and checked some of the old SA'rs profiles, some haven't showed up around here for a long time...

Yeah it was like stepping back in time. I miss not seeing posts from our old friends from that thread..

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I wonder why I never posted in that thread?

Seem to recall being late to it, might have been away from home a few days?

Otherwise I guess chose not to post anything rather than something douchey.

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Good lord ( not dougie). 8 years allready. Lot's of water under the bridge.- We're getting older. The issue is not getting older, it's remembering we once were young.

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Yeah, really strange going through that thread. It was a wild time that helped keep my sanity by distracting me from dwelling on being out of work for a year and a half. With the economy like it was there was not much to work on looking for a job, so the time spent on the SAAC forums kept me going, sad to think of these days, seems like an eternity ago now.

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When we go back to this thread we are struck by the extreme agressivity of the posters.

My explanation is that most of them were stupidly naïve fans, thinking that EB was the devil, LE the white knight. Obviously both, not only had the same vision, but tweeked the Deed the same way, the second not doing the basic mistake of the first one.

TNZ is no much better, giving absolutely no right to other challengers thanks to a dark agreement, P$B supposingly defending their interests, hilarious.  And what is the answer ? Fuck you, that's the AC !

Basically, once a defender, W're the best, Fuck the rest. And that is the attitude a THE kiwi troll here, not necessary to name him or her.

I have more respect for GD speaking openly, with or without the truth, than for some naïve believers.

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5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

When we go back to this thread we are struck by the extreme agressivity of the posters.

My explanation is that most of them were stupidly naïve fans, thinking that EB was the devil, LE the white knight. Obviously both, not only had the same vision, but tweeked the Deed the same way, the second not doing the basic mistake of the first one.

TNZ is no much better, giving absolutely no right to other challengers thanks to a dark agreement, P$B supposingly defending their interests, hilarious.  And what is the answer ? Fuck you, that's the AC !

Basically, once a defender, W're the best, Fuck the rest. And that is the attitude a THE kiwi troll here, not necessary to name him or her.

I have more respect for GD speaking openly, with or without the truth, than for some naïve believers.

EB was screwing the DoG and LE made the appearance that he was going to do right by it. Only after getting his hands on it did the real LE appear, EB 'lite' with a more proper challenger YC instead of a fabricated one. I thought Oakley and HIYC were going to be OK but that did not last. Along with cost I wonder if health was concern seeing that he did not last that much longer past their withdrawal.

The defender dealing directly with the CoR is not bad, it is the way it should be. It will be the responsibility of the challengers to keep LR honest. RNZYS only has the obligation to worry about who shows-up on race day. I do not think there was ever any challengers 'commision' back in the day, they had to deal with the CoR. Same with the defense candidates, they had to deal with the NYYC and the club could do as they pleased since it was their defense to win. That is why they did not run a defender selection series, only trials where they did keep score but were ultimately looking for the best boat and crew that they thought could defend the Cup. Other than that they did not care.

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2 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

EB was screwing the DoG and LE made the appearance that he was going to do right by it. Only after getting his hands on it did the real LE appear, EB 'lite' with a more proper challenger YC instead of a fabricated one. I thought Oakley and HIYC were going to be OK but that did not last. Along with cost I wonder if health was concern seeing that he did not last that much longer past their withdrawal.

The defender dealing directly with the CoR is not bad, it is the way it should be. It will be the responsibility of the challengers to keep LR honest. RNZYS only has the obligation to worry about who shows-up on race day. I do not think there was ever any challengers 'commision' back in the day, they had to deal with the CoR. Same with the defense candidates, they had to deal with the NYYC and the club could do as they pleased since it was their defense to win. That is why they did not run a defender selection series, only trials where they did keep score but were ultimately looking for the best boat and crew that they thought could defend the Cup. Other than that they did not care.

I do not blame the fans at the time, they were just naïve.

I have never been an Oracle supporter, everybody here knows that, but I have to be honest, both EB and LE offered much more to the challengers.

Most kiwis hated EB and than LE, the irony is that TNZ is even more biased with the challengers than former bad guys. More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

Perhaps because I supported TNZ until now I don't want to blame them for that, I think they just had no choice with P$B.

I agree with most of your post but not that it will be challengers responsability to oblige the CoR to do well, at the end it's defender responsability.

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The normal historical standard has been that the CoR convenes a Challenger group & takes consensus to negotiate with the Defender.

This protocol is returning to that & its a good thing.

 

The bizarre spectacle of the London 5 coordinating with the Defender to skew the rules in favour of the Defender, that was perverse & people should be ashamed for supporting it.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

When we go back to this thread we are struck by the extreme agressivity of the posters.

My explanation is that most of them were stupidly naïve fans, thinking that EB was the devil, LE the white knight. Obviously both, not only had the same vision, but tweeked the Deed the same way, the second not doing the basic mistake of the first one.

TNZ is no much better, giving absolutely no right to other challengers thanks to a dark agreement, P$B supposingly defending their interests, hilarious.  And what is the answer ? Fuck you, that's the AC !

Basically, once a defender, W're the best, Fuck the rest. And that is the attitude a THE kiwi troll here, not necessary to name him or her.

I have more respect for GD speaking openly, with or without the truth, than for some naïve believers.

ETNZ has been defender multiple times before...

Please illuminate us as to when they fucked others as hard as EB and LE did...

Of course, then consider that EB and LE fucked ETNZ without prejudice

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49 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

ETNZ has been defender multiple times before...

Please illuminate us as to when they fucked others as hard as EB and LE did...

Of course, then consider that EB and LE fucked ETNZ without prejudice

Ignore TC. He seems to have spun out of control since the demise of the AC50s. 

He's normally a pain in the arse but I could generally see his point. At the moment,  I can't figure out what crawled up his arse.

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TC usually gets lost when it comes to Protocol matters.

^^^ The only thing HIYC ever had going for it was having a paid OTUSA schill in place to 'negotiate' the AC35 Protocol - with OTUSA.

That set the tone for all the self-serving manoeuvres to follow - and is apparently the standard TC doubts RNZYC & CVS can come up to! :lol:

Is there a single poster from a losing team (those that even had a team) not trolling?

 

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

Why do you keep persisting with this?  We've explained it a dozen different ways to Sunday why you're wrong, yet you keep throwing out this "deed non-compliant" BS.  When you can show us that each "replacement challenger" as you call them has to file a new challenge with each passing of the torch, then you will have a basis for your argument.

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9 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I do not blame the fans at the time, they were just naïve.

I have never been an Oracle supporter, everybody here knows that, but I have to be honest, both EB and LE offered much more to the challengers.

Most kiwis hated EB and than LE, the irony is that TNZ is even more biased with the challengers than former bad guys. More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

Perhaps because I supported TNZ until now I don't want to blame them for that, I think they just had no choice with P$B.

I agree with most of your post but not that it will be challengers responsability to oblige the CoR to do well, at the end it's defender responsability.

When a replacement challenger wins the selection series the original challenge is withdrawn, settling the original challenge, then the new challenge is submitted based on the winner of the selection series. I remember this being discussed when OR lost on '07 and withdrawing their challenge, then ETNZ filing the replacement challenge. That way it remains DoG compliant that no other challenge can be accepted until the current one is settled. It should be in there on the transfer of the challenge if someone other than the CoR. We all know it is a formality since the multi-challenger format was accepted by the NYYC, but should be followed to comply with the terms of the DoG and not leave an opening for someone with enough money to drag it through the courts.

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10 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1: I do not blame the fans at the time, they were just naïve.

2: I have never been an Oracle supporter, everybody here knows that, but I have to be honest, both EB and LE offered much more to the challengers.

3: Most kiwis hated EB and than LE, the irony is that TNZ is even more biased with the challengers than former bad guys. More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

4: Perhaps because I supported TNZ until now I don't want to blame them for that, I think they just had no choice with P$B.

5: I agree with most of your post but not that it will be challengers responsability to oblige the CoR to do well, at the end it's defender responsability.

re. 1: Never been naïve, I assume, many of us just did not care. The most pressing problem was getting rid of SNG/EB/Alinghi and their made-up CoR. Then, we could bitch about the next problems, which were GGYC/LE/Oracle. This way we ensured permanent fun.

re. 2: As long as the DoG is honored, all is good. No need for the Defender to "offer" anything to the Challenger(s). 

re. 3: I was educated by several posters here (thanks for that!) that I read the phrase in a wrong way, respectively drew the wrong conclusions. All is good as it is, as the Challengers have to deal with the CoR, and the CoR can set up requirements for the CSS participation at its own discretion. In fact, as the CoR does not even need to set up a CSS, the YCs/teams that will take part in the CSS are lucky that this opportunity is there.
It would have been better to separate the Defender/CoR = AC section in the Protocol from the CoR/Challengers = CSS sections more clearly, but maybe it was just me not reading carefully enough.

re. 4: Most of us do not know what has been negotiated between RNZYS and CVS, but since you speculate, I do too: I think, GD is very happy with the outcome of the negotiations (Protocol and boat).  

re. 5: The CSS is not the Defender's responsibility, not at all. This is what went so totally wrong during AC34 and 35. The Defender should keep its hands away from the CSS, as it is solely the CoR's playground - and has been since it was established and until EB (first AC33 protocol) and later LE came along. As a consequence, it's up to the other Clallengers to keep the CoR honest.

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14 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Please illuminate us as to when they fucked others as hard as EB and LE did...

Of course, then consider that EB and LE fucked ETNZ without prejudice

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

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6 hours ago, ezyb said:

Why do you keep persisting with this?  We've explained it a dozen different ways to Sunday why you're wrong, yet you keep throwing out this "deed non-compliant" BS.  When you can show us that each "replacement challenger" as you call them has to file a new challenge with each passing of the torch, then you will have a basis for your argument.

Just think of him as Inspector Jacques Clouseau and everything he posts becomes easier to ignore.

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If ETNZ thought the Oracle AC Protocols were in any way unfair then they would not have structured their own to be so similar, to then proclaim (with reason) its fairness.

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23 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

Not to mention how in 2 successive competitions against Oracle under Oracle AC Protocols, ETNZ dang nearly won the first and did win the second. 

Toss out a lot of conspiratorial bullshit and you're left facing the fact that things were fair, it was a level playing field.

ETNZ did address the one flaw in the AC36 Protocol: The Class Rule can't ever be changed to a different one except by full consent of all competitors. Even if it might ultimately be a good idea to do so, it clearly won't happen - the Prot has that 75' monohull essentially signed and chiseled in stone.

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Pathetic revisionism - the AC35 Protocol said exactly the same thing, changes to AC Class Rule only by unanimous vote.

.....and this classic bit of spin: "Oh look, that team came 2nd in a 2 team competition what wonderful fair rules there must have been" :(

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The point is, that in the AC36 Prot they can't change to a different Class from the AC75, which is already defined to be a 75' Monohull. Yes, the internals of that rule could be otherwise changed after COR/D sign to it, but only by unanimous vote.

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44 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

If you look at the pattern, anytime you juke with the rules, you lose.

EB in 2010 and LE in 2017. 2007 & 2013 were fairly clean.

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10 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

The end justifies the means?? No thanks. ETNZ learned the hard way - 2003 Bertarelli gutted TNZ who never managed to fill the void left by the departees and lost. 2007 ETNZ were good enough but made mistakes - including persevering with Barker. 2013 they were cheated out of the Cup. 2017 they learned from 2013 and humiliated the cheaters.

Nothing wrong with remembering history so we never repeat the mistakes of the past.

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18 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The point is, that in the AC36 Prot they can't change to a different Class from the AC75, which is already defined to be a 75' Monohull. Yes, the internals of that rule could be otherwise changed after COR/D sign to it, but only by unanimous vote.

That's easy to understand. It's ETNZ running the show, not the cheating self-dealing OR-Xerox mob who thankfully are gone. You're too dumb bitter and twisted to see the certainty for Challengers knowing the AC75 won't be changed to an AC50.5 as the cheaters OR-Xerox did in AC35.

Keep drowning in the kool-aid. Btw, why aren't you rooting for the African Diaspora Maritime Challenge?:lol:

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

Geez - projecting much?

Let me break it down for your small.little.mind

I never suggested ETNZ were victims mate, those are your words... the point was made by TC that the defender always fucks people because of recent history proving this, and that ETNZ as now the defender will become the fucker.

I don't agree, so I then responded that if you look back far enough you can find multiple times the defender didn't fuck anyone, and that in many of these cases that defender was ETNZ - still waiting for someone to argue this is wrong btw...

I *also* added EB and LE fucked others - including themselves and ETNZ - and did so at times even when they weren't the defender.

My point was the EB and LE are always fuckers irrespective of holding the cup, and holding the cup doesn't make you a fucker, as evidenced by ETNZ...

If you don't understand that you are the victim - of too few brain cells or too many jugs...

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8 hours ago, ezyb said:

 We've explained it a dozen different ways to Sunday why you're wrong, yet you keep throwing out this "deed non-compliant" BS.  When you can show us that each "replacement challenger" as you call them has to file a new challenge with each passing of the torch, then you will have a basis for your argument.

I understood what you said but I am not sure you understood mine. Have you read 6.3. If all challenges are received at the same time and have to comply with the Deed, how can some require different conditions than the Deed itself ?

If the CoR may impose his requirements to other challengers, how can the defender treat differently equivalent challenges ?

For the purposes of the Deed of Gift, all challenges accepted by RNZYS ( {'Challenges") shall be deemed to have been received by the RNZYS at the same time, being the time of the conclusion of the Final Race 2017.

 

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7 hours ago, Rennmaus said:


re. 2: As long as the DoG is honored, all is good. No need for the Defender to "offer" anything to the Challenger(s). 
re. 5: The CSS is not the Defender's responsibility, not at all. This is what went so totally wrong during AC34 and 35. The Defender should keep its hands away from the CSS, as it is solely the CoR's playground - and has been since it was established and until EB (first AC33 protocol) and later LE came along. As a consequence, it's up to the other Clallengers to keep the CoR honest.

2. I agree with you but was comparing with the 2 previous "evils"

5. I understand your vision, but it not about the CoR only, all challengers apply to RNZYS

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If ETNZ thought the Oracle AC Protocols were in any way unfair then they would not have structured their own to be so similar, to then proclaim (with reason) its fairness.

It will depend of LR behaviour

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Bit of a change of pace here, not exactly a protocol subject, but any thoughts on which sail brands might try to outfit AC teams?

North is clearly the default choice, but with Quantum in the race, they will likely want their wardrobe on display for at least their own team.

Are there any other likely vendors? Has anyone other than North been used since 2003? North, Quantum .. who are the best of the rest?

 

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https://www.americascup.com/en/news/16_AC36-CHALLENGER-ENTRY-PERIOD-OPENS-ON-1-JANUARY-2018.html

19 Dec 2017

AC36 CHALLENGER ENTRY PERIOD OPENS ON 1 JANUARY 2018

America's Cup Trustee Memorandum No. 1 - Entry Requirements

The Challenging Period under which the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron will accept further challenges from eligible yacht clubs ( in addition to the challenge received from the Challenger of Record, Circolo della Vela Sicilia ) starts on the 1st of January 2018  and closes on the 30th of June 2018. There is also a late entry period requiring payment of a higher entry fee which is open until the 30th of November 2018.

RNZYS has today issued Trustee Memorandum No 1 to provide prospective challengers with details of how to file a Notice of Challenge and make the first entry fee payment.

This Memorandum may be downloaded HERE

The opening of this Challenging Period is another important milestone for the 36th America’s Cup competition.

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According to this article (Italian) there is an Amendment 1 out. http://ventoevele.gazzetta.it/2017/12/30/anno-nuovo-parte-la-coppa-n-36/

Gtran:

Meanwhile, the defender, the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron with the challenger of Record, the Sailing Club of Sicily have published the amendment number 1 to the Protocol that reduces from five to three years of activity necessary for a club to sign up for the Cup. Furthermore, the variation to the Protocol prohibits the use of "every" type of boat (previously specifying "monohull") above 12 meters for direct and indirect development in the design of the new AC75. The boats of existing classes, such as the TP52 (and Luna Rossa will be with one of its TP52s in the Super Series 2018) are excluded, but they can only be used for the preparation and training of the crews in regattas reserved for these classes.

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^ So.. the use of (for example) AC45’s and AC50’s is now banned? and the club ‘age’ reduction may be the result of a particular Club wanting to enter?

Am not seeing those changes in the Prot linked at AC.com, on my teeny screen anyway. 6.2 a ) for example still has ‘it must have been in existence for a minimum of 5 years.’ The definition of Surrogate Yacht is also unchanged, has ‘any monohull yacht.’

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^ Here's the announcement... https://www.americascup.com/en/news/17_Protocol-Amendment-No-1.html

On the 22nd of December 2017 the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and Circolo della Vela Sicilia, the Challenger of Record, agreed on Amendment No 1 to the Protocol Governing the 36th America’s Cup.

This amendment reduces the period a challenging yacht club has to have been in existence from five to three years and changes the defintion of a Surrogate Yacht from “any monohull yacht exceeding 12m LOA ” to “any yacht exceeding 12m LOA ”.

The  Protocol Amendment is... HERE.

image.png.8d6c922043c98d20356cda24360e5c00.png

It does not ban the use of any vessel  unless it is >12m and ...... is capable of producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht....

So any YC's that exist now - but didn't say 4 years ago?

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Thanks for the links. I liked it when AC35 began republishing the Prot with the changes included and marked up - perhaps this crew will start doing the same at some point. Copy-able would be nice too.

I had figured the AC45’s and AC50’s as possibly useful, so why would they go and make the change?

And the younger club.. the Chinese outfit that some Kiwi (I forget his name) is over there helping to set up? Could have been a McFadden article. edit: Craig Monk http://www.sail-world.com/news/200066/China-makes-moves-to-enter-the-Americas-Cup

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

.....

I had figured the AC45’s and AC50’s as possibly useful, so why would they go and make the change?

If you mean useful as in producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht....

then it's obvious why they made the change - not to have done so would have made the pre-existing surrogate clause redundant

But if you mean just to sail about in  and not producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht.... then there is no change  - because you still can

 

1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

And the younger club.. the Chinese outfit that some Kiwi (I forget his name) is over there helping to set up? Could have been a McFadden article. edit: Craig Monk http://www.sail-world.com/news/200066/China-makes-moves-to-enter-the-Americas-Cup

   

You read it here first! Looking forward to that regatta

 Carmel Sailing Community 21px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png Haifa, Israel

2014   :o

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19 minutes ago, nav said:

If you mean useful as in producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht....

 

Yes, that is what I meant especially after listening to Simmer in the WSS vid where he’s trying to think of useful boats for LRBAR’s preparations. It could be a significant Protocol change there, now also ruling out multihulls.

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Broken record: it's towed tests - with a 12 m token hull, rudder on a gantry, foils initially without the canting mechanism - stupid

 

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4 hours ago, nav said:

^ Here's the announcement... https://www.americascup.com/en/news/17_Protocol-Amendment-No-1.html

On the 22nd of December 2017 the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and Circolo della Vela Sicilia, the Challenger of Record, agreed on Amendment No 1 to the Protocol Governing the 36th America’s Cup.

This amendment reduces the period a challenging yacht club has to have been in existence from five to three years and changes the defintion of a Surrogate Yacht from “any monohull yacht exceeding 12m LOA ” to “any yacht exceeding 12m LOA ”.

The  Protocol Amendment is... HERE.

image.png.8d6c922043c98d20356cda24360e5c00.png

It does not ban the use of any vessel  unless it is >12m and ...... is capable of producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht....

So any YC's that exist now - but didn't say 4 years ago?

I wonder why the Amendment does not also address Appendix 4 of the Protocol, the Notice of Challenge form, which also includes ‘Has been existence for a minimum of 5 years’ ?

The recent Memorandum 1 refers to that Appendix 4, in its very first instruction: AC-36-Trustee-Memorandum-No-1.pdf

 

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"This amendment reduces the period a challenging yacht club has to have been in existence from five to three years and changes the defintion of a Surrogate Yacht from “any monohull yacht exceeding 12m LOA ” to “any yacht exceeding 12m LOA ”.

So, they are afraid to be challenged on the definition of a mono and trimaran ? :)

As far as the 3 years, I am waiting to see the same posters scream and moan it is to accept weak competitors in order to control the forum. Wait,.... which forum ? there is no forum, Defender and CoR control everything, unlike these previous cheaters, you know. :D

 

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On 12/30/2017 at 2:38 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

This amendment reduces the period a challenging yacht club has to have been in existence from five to three years 

A second Italian team has been rumored for some time, P$B even mentioned the possibility. The team Adelasia of Torres, based in Sardinia, has been pointed to, example at https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/second-italian-syndicate-announces-intent-challenge-team-nz-americas-cup

Torres has not been associated in the reports with any particular Yacht Club but here’s a possible one with a (2018 minus 3) 2015 formation date that could fit the puzzle, Protocol-change wise.

Gtran

"The club was founded in November 2015 and is mainly made up of shipowners who revolve around the Marina of Portus Karalis" E 'Guido Sanna, the President of the newborn Sailing Club Cagliari

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.sailingsardinia.it/sailing-club-cagliari/&usg=ALkJrhhCdfmHTPDlJ8JEHQ444TNx5lihBg

http://www.sailingclub.cagliari.it/chi-siamo/

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47 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A second Italian team has been rumored for some time, P$B even mentioned the possibility. The team Adelasia of Torres, based in Sardinia, has been pointed to, example at https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/second-italian-syndicate-announces-intent-challenge-team-nz-americas-cup

 

Strange to see how some here who were accusing RC to make up the number with TJ and TF are now  keeping silent as tide changes.

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Strange to see how some here who were accusing RC to make up the number with TJ and TF are now  keeping silent as tide changes.

If you think back to EB, in this case you’d have to also wonder about the Sardinia Sailing Club’s annual regatta, and about when that will be held :)

Kidding aside, IF both Italian teams were to enter with both sailing out of Cagliari, there’s the potential for a lot of, ahem, ‘cooperation’ from P$B.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Strange to see how some here who were accusing RC to make up the number with TJ and TF are now  keeping silent as tide changes.

Difference is whether you'll see Emirates, Omega, Toyota and Nespresso plastered all over their yacht and two boat racing in between the Challenger final and the AC match itself like we did with TJ. Making it easier for a team to enter is a lot different to having a 2 boat campaign and calling it a "challenger" 

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42 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Difference is whether you'll see Emirates, Omega, Toyota and Nespresso plastered all over their yacht and two boat racing in between the Challenger final and the AC match itself like we did with TJ. Making it easier for a team to enter is a lot different to having a 2 boat campaign and calling it a "challenger" 

There has been no tighter relationship between any two syndicates over the past two AC cycles than the one between ETNZ and LR. 

As Defender now, ETNZ has not only continued the right to share/sell designs, they are even letting their BFF LR have PRADA ‘plastered all over’ the entire AC36!

So.. Get a grip! ;)

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22 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There has been no tighter relationship between any two syndicates over the past two AC cycles than the one between ETNZ and LR. 

As Defender now, ETNZ has not only continued the right to share/sell designs, they are even letting their BFF LR have PRADA ‘plastered all over’ the entire AC36!

So.. Get a grip! ;)

It's called sponsorship you wanker - you need to ease off on that grip....

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Difference is whether you'll see Emirates, Omega, Toyota and Nespresso plastered all over their yacht and two boat racing in between the Challenger final and the AC match itself like we did with TJ. Making it easier for a team to enter is a lot different to having a 2 boat campaign and calling it a "challenger" 

Not calling TJ a challenger is not only false, it's mainly insulting for them, the team, their effort.  Have you even seen them racing ? I have total respect for them.

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11 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Not calling TJ a challenger is not only false, it's mainly insulting for them, the team, their effort.  Have you even seen them racing ? I have total respect for them.

I'd have total respect for them, if they had acted like a Challenger instead of a defender. Their intention was not to win the Americas Cup, or they would not have bought a design package from Oracle and continued to work as closely as they did. The intent of every challenger should be to win the cup themselves, failing that, to encourage other challengers to do the same. LR had made it very clear in AC34 that due to their late start, that their intention was to learn and get stronger for AC35, which is exactly what they did until they withdrew. Yes, ETNZ and LR had/ have a close relationship, but that relationship was born out of necessity. Both teams did what had to be done to win the Cup, not help the defender retain. I have absolute respect for what every one of the team members of Team Japan have accomplished. But the challenge itself, and the way they assisted (or tried to assist) Oracle to beat the challenger and retain the cup IMO is contrary to the intent of the DoG and the AC. Make no mistake, LR will do everything in their power to defeat the Kiwi's, where TJ would have rolled over for Oracle Racing had they made the final.

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8 minutes ago, sclarke said:

 Their intention was not to win the Americas Cup,

I am 100% convinced of the contrary, would have they won the CSS that they would have been a formidable enemy for Oracle

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40 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I am 100% convinced of the contrary, would have they won the CSS that they would have been a formidable enemy for Oracle

Agreed

OR took a chance with giving TJ that Design start, and TJ did almost beat Artemis (were very, very competitive) and the Artemis/ETNZ Series was actually very close too, considering the MOB and the wrong umpiring call at the bottom mark. Any of those three were in the mix and if the wind had been stronger during the Match then either of AR and TJ may have been the better series against OR than foils-challenged ETNZ would have been.

We don’t know yet if ETNZ will two-boat test between the CSS and Match this time; we also don’t know if they will two-boat against whoever else is knocked out and available - possibly including LR.

Sclarke is still drinking the Koolaid about TJ being ‘OR’s second boat’ as the conspiratorial GD always charged; plus, OR and TJ practiced for barely a day or two after the CSS in Bermuda regardless - and in heavy breeze.

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agreed

OR took a chance with giving TJ that Design start, and TJ did almost beat Artemis (were very, very competitive) and the Artemis/ETNZ Series was actually very close too, considering the MOB and the wrong umpiring call at the bottom mark. Any of those three were in the mix and if the wind had been stronger during the Match then either of AR and TJ may have been the better series against OR than foils-challenged ETNZ would have been.

We don’t know yet if ETNZ will two-boat test between the CSS and Match this time; we also don’t know if they will two-boat against whoever else is knocked out and available - possibly including LR.

Sclarke is still drinking the Koolaid.

Yes, TNZ was optimized for lighter conditions in which they were invincible. Both Artemis and TJ could have beaten OR in the match.

Considering that TJ was not willing to win is the same as to say LR does not want to win next AC. Nonsense.

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

IF both Italian teams were to enter with both sailing out of Cagliari, there’s the potential for a lot of, ahem, ‘cooperation’ from P$B.

They are not allowed to train together, but they can "cooperate".

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21 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They are not allowed to train together, but they can "cooperate".

If P$B helped financially to sustain his Cagliari neighbor to try a variation boat design, also ‘Constructed in Italy,’ easily observable in very close proximity, and with favors owed in the bar-talk, well... coercive cooperation, as has been P$B’s method recently, is a very real possibility. Again, even back in the original ‘the monohull was our condition’ breakthrough interview about the hidden deal already made with ETNZ, in that interview in Italy, P$B also said he ‘expected’ a second Italian Challenger. When he says ‘expected’ well.. that could be also a done deal he’s already made. Maybe even done a while back, or else why this Protocol change? Will he in effect get 4 boats to choose from? With one or more boats based on a Design purchased from ETNZ in some other hand$hake pre-deal we never know about?

Here’s another Q: Could there already be an agreement where if LR wins AC36 then ETNZ will be the CoR? And visa versa? There’s precedent, given what we now realize.

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Nice little fantasy echo chamber you guys got going there, you considered trying out as Russia Experts for TV? :rolleyes:

 

Oracle team Japan got whomped hard by TNZ in the higher wind RR, there is no way they could have beaten Orifice in the Match.

Their actions were clearly actual collusion with Orifice.

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ETNZ cringed with their compromised only set of boards cringed every time they had to race in wind, by many accounts including GD.

No Kiwi fanboys should be raising ‘Collilusion’ charges, given the recent history as we now have come to understand it originally through P$B’s admittance and later confirmed even by ETNZ. The money/COR/boat choice fix was on and we don’t know how deep this all goes beyond that.

 

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2 hours ago, hoom said:

Nice little fantasy echo chamber you guys got going there, you considered trying out as Russia Experts for TV? :rolleyes:

Oracle team Japan got whomped hard by TNZ in the higher wind RR, there is no way they could have beaten Orifice in the Match.

 

How can you say that ? just look at the results.

Artemis eats Oracle May 28 and June 2

AR beats Artemis May 27 and May 30

TJ beats AR May 27

To consider TJ as a puppet is nonsense, and, if so, let's wait for the second Italian team, if real.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

ETNZ cringed with their compromised only set of boards cringed every time they had to race in wind, by many accounts including GD.

They had the high wind boards, which showed to be plenty quick in the higher wind.

The fear was that the wind would increase without time to switch down & the whompers would fold.

 

1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

No Kiwi fanboys should be raising ‘Collilusion’ charges, given the recent history as we now have come to understand it originally through P$B’s admittance and later confirmed even by ETNZ.

Challenger to Challenger assistance was allowed, especially so after LR pulled out.

Fundamentally the CSS is all about finding the strongest single Challenger with best chance to beat the Defender.

Likewise Defender to Defender assistance has been a significant part of the AC history eg BBDDC used the better Young America hull for his failed '95 Defense, that was OK because it was the Defenders working together to provide the strongest single Defender with best chance to beat the Challenger.

 

Its entirely something else for a supposed Challenger to actively train & share significant resources with the Defender.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I am 100% convinced of the contrary, would have they won the CSS that they would have been a formidable enemy for Oracle

This isn't about disrespect for many talented people at TJ, and irrespective of your interpretation of their intent its an open secret that many of TJ were on OR's fucking payroll... co-funded = co-defender (albeit talented)

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6 hours ago, rh2600 said:

This isn't about disrespect for many talented people at TJ, and irrespective of your interpretation of their intent its an open secret that many of TJ were on OR's fucking payroll... co-funded = co-defender (albeit talented)

I don't challenge the cooperation agreement between TJ and OR, we know that. I challenge the interpretations that we had here, that TJ did not want to win, that TJ the enter of TJ was a plot from OR to control the forum and change the rules, that it was an attack against TNZ and all this nonsense.

I cannot be suspected of being an Oraclite, I just want to try to have a fair judgement. If we take the same accusation it would not translate as: TNZ changed the rules (5 to 3 years) in the middle of the game in order to attract more teams, it's a direct and unfair attack to possible US challengers. It would be the same nonsense.

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13 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

ETNZ cringed with their compromised only set of boards cringed every time they had to race in wind, by many accounts including GD.

No Kiwi fanboys should be raising ‘Collilusion’ charges, given the recent history as we now have come to understand it originally through P$B’s admittance and later confirmed even by ETNZ. The money/COR/boat choice fix was on and we don’t know how deep this all goes beyond that.

 

Its pretty simple. A challenger working with a defender to retain, versus a challenger working with a challenger to win a "challenge" trophy. The ETNZ - LR partnership is much different to the Oracle - TJ partnership, in that Oracle and TJ were one team in actuality, and two teams by name only. ETNZ and LR were two separate teams working together to win the Cup. 

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

 Oracle and TJ were one team in actuality, and two teams by name only

Yeah right, same crew, same director, same boat, same training program, same results...

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Sounds like Amendment 1 is designed to get the Challenger numbers up.  Shocking.

I wonder what Amendment 2 will be.  Naming of venue before the Challenger entry period ends?  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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21 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yeah right, same crew, same director, same boat, same training program, same results...

Two boats, two crews, same sponsors, same training program, which was exactly why yes, same results... they both lost. 

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

Two boats, two crews, same sponsors, same training program, which was exactly why yes, same results... they both lost. 

What the hell is your point?

TJ did nothing at all to help OR, it was completely the other way around.

And if it’s so bad for a Defender to allow Challengers to buy base designs, then why is it allowed again in the GD/P$B Protocol?

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

sclarke is sure they had the same result, it tells us all. :)

Oh did they have different results? I thought they were both losers - and one was/is a cheat.:o

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OR is a cheat and ETNZ is a choker.  Both are cemented in AC history forever.  Lets move on.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

 

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6 hours ago, WetHog said:

OR is a cheat and ETNZ is a choker.  Both are cemented in AC history forever.  Lets move on.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

 

OR is a cheat and ETNZ are winners. Cemented in AC history forever. 

20 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What the hell is your point?

TJ did nothing at all to help OR, it was completely the other way around.

And if it’s so bad for a Defender to allow Challengers to buy base designs, then why is it allowed again in the GD/P$B Protocol?

The point is the two relationships are completely different so the comparisons need to stop. One was born out of necessity, the other was not.

"TJ did nothing at all to help OR, it was completely the other way around" so I guess those tune up sessions between the challenger final and the AC match were a figment of the imagination? Japan effectively gave OR a two boat campaign without OR having to focus on a 2 boat campaign. You might say "well LR did the same for ETNZ in 2013" again...completely different situations.

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On 1/2/2018 at 9:21 AM, sclarke said:

Its pretty simple. A challenger working with a defender to retain, versus a challenger working with a challenger to win a "challenge" trophy. The ETNZ - LR partnership is much different to the Oracle - TJ partnership, in that Oracle and TJ were one team in actuality, and two teams by name only. ETNZ and LR were two separate teams working together to win the Cup. 

This has been, and continues to be, a stupid claim.  No Billionaire jumps into a game like the America's Cup without wanting to win. 

The Team Japan boss was the 2nd richest in the sport, had an opportunity to buy a legitimate contender, both with respect to sailing talent and boat, and went for it later than would be possible had they not bought the boat.  Sure, they took advantage, also, of Oracle, which gave TJ an opportunity to train up with an advantage against the other challengers, but that does not make it the case that they would not have worked their asses off to win if they had the opportunity in the finals.  The claim that they were two teams in name only, as if different than ETNZ/LR, is pure convenience for a hopeless TNZ fanboy.

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

"TJ did nothing at all to help OR, it was completely the other way around" so I guess those tune up sessions between the challenger final and the AC match were a figment of the imagination?

They did go out together on a couple days before OR had to start into the Match but hth did it benefit OR? Starting practice maybe, for all the good that evidently helped. OR couldn’t stay on the foils under 10 knts of wind, there’s nothing on that account that TJ could have helped them with at that stage of the cycle and the only 2 days they did practice head to head had solid breeze anyway.

The only figment of the imagination appears to be a figment in your own brain, in your own imagination, guided by a GD conspiracy theory that you blindly subscribe to. TJ was no help to OR, it was the other way around.

I recently pulled some more stats and the fastest avg speed race was in the highest avg wind speed race (about 22 knots) and the highest top speeds were also in that race. It was in early June, think it was June 6, between AR and TJ. Both boats exceeded 47 knots, TJ was fastest on the Leg 1 reach and was first to the turn but both boats set AC50 records on the Leg 6 downwind when AR hit 47.22 knots and TJ 47.20.

I could easily repost a chart of that race if anyone cares to see it, later this week. They were f’ing screaming.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Indio said:

Oh did they have different results? I thought they were both losers - and one was/is a cheat.:o

 

10 hours ago, WetHog said:

OR is a cheat and ETNZ is a choker.  Both are cemented in AC history forever.  Lets move on.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

 

excluding the lead pellets in the AC45's which proved to have similar performance gain as a crew member sitting forward 10cm,

when did they cheat?

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2 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

This has been, and continues to be, a stupid claim.  No Billionaire jumps into a game like the America's Cup without wanting to win. 

The Team Japan boss was the 2nd richest in the sport, had an opportunity to buy a legitimate contender, both with respect to sailing talent and boat, and went for it later than would be possible had they not bought the boat.  Sure, they took advantage, also, of Oracle, which gave TJ an opportunity to train up with an advantage against the other challengers, but that does not make it the case that they would not have worked their asses off to win if they had the opportunity in the finals.  The claim that they were two teams in name only, as if different than ETNZ/LR, is pure convenience for a hopeless TNZ fanboy.

And the refusal by both the OR-Xerox and OR-JPN to practice-race with ETNZ was purely coincidental?? It was a cunning move by OR-Xerox to facilitate OR-JPN's entry into AC35 because it effectively allowed them to have 2-boat testing under the Protocol, for 2 years or so. The Protocol constraints on when they could launch a second boat and more crucially when they could 2-boat test with any second boat effectively meant they only had 5 days in which to 2-boat test before the Match!!

Speculating on what might have happened had they both ended up in the Match is totally pointless. Given the way AR handed OR-JPN a thumbing from match-point, AR were the only other Challenger likely to have made it to the Match. And they would have thrashed the fucking cheaters.

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