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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Marian, and she never let on that she had very personal connections with Alinghi...

I always knew she was the third part of the EB-RC-?? love triangle :D

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2 minutes ago, ezyb said:

I always knew she was the third part of the EB-RC-?? love triangle :D

No chance - Did you ever see a photo of her? She was pretty frail when she passed, sadly.

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Marian, and she never let on that she had very personal connections with Alinghi...

Marian had personal connections with many in the world wide sailing community..you once asked for an in to EB, forgetting that you had got all up in his business in FL and promoted the story that Russel had fucked EB's wife...

She had had an intense dislike of clean, she said she had proof that clean was hacking her SA IM account and towards the end would only use email...

I see down thread that spinbot is making comments on her appearance, but then you have to remember that he and his elk had taken to referring to her as a hag and a cunt..it was pretty nasty around here if you had an opinion different to the oracalites...

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23 hours ago, ro! said:

Marian had personal connections with many in the world wide sailing community..you once asked for an in to EB, forgetting that you had got all up in his business in FL and promoted the story that Russel had fucked EB's wife...

She had had an intense dislike of clean, she said she had proof that clean was hacking her SA IM account and towards the end would only use email...

I see down thread that spinbot is making comments on her appearance, but then you have to remember that he and his elk had taken to referring to her as a hag and a cunt..it was pretty nasty around here if you had an opinion different to the oracalites...

Totally agree. Aside of her being an inconditional EB defender, she was awfully treated by Clean.

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On 13/10/2017 at 9:56 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

Marian, and she never let on that she had very personal connections with Alinghi...

Yes she was a rogue. As I said, she just lifted stuff I wrote verbatim  for her site without asking me or even telling me. I still miss her.

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On 10/13/2017 at 11:35 PM, ro! said:

I see down thread that spinbot is making comments on her appearance, but then you have to remember that he and his elk had taken to referring to her as a hag and a cunt..it was pretty nasty around here if you had an opinion different to the oracalites...

There is only one person I can think of that felt so negativity towards Marian that he would of called her names, and he had no qualms about using foul language to make a point, was good old Gusmus.  But his issue with Marian, if I remember correctly, is she hired Gus to work for BYM during AC32 in Valencia and she terminated their business relationship at one point in the middle of AC32.  I believe their editorial opinions did not jibe and their may have also been an issue with unpaid debts.  Far from a bunch of Oraclites using vulgar terms directed at Marian.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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12 minutes ago, WetHog said:

There is only one person I can remember that felt so negativity towards Marian that he would of called her names, and he had no qualms about using foul language to make a point, was good old Gusmus.  But his issue with Marian, if I remember correctly, is she hired Gus to work for BYM during AC32 in Valencia and she terminated their business relationship at one point in the middle of AC32.  I believe their editorial opinions did not jibe and their may have also been an issue with unpaid debts.  Far from a bunch of Oraclites using vulgar terms directed at Marian.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

She actually called me for that job... But I couldn't because my boss wouldn't give me the free days needed to go to Valencia  so I called a friend of mine who was living there and he did the job... He even got an article published in our mythical FP.

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On 10/13/2017 at 11:35 PM, ro! said:

she said she had proof that clean was hacking her SA IM account and towards the end would only use email...

 

Wow she really was losing it at the end, I never heard that particular bit of paranoid delusion, but that wasn't the only one.

 

She was also convinced that Tracy Edwards was trying to take down BYM the same way some other guy was trying to take down SA (with Marian's help).   Not sure how many other boogeymen were going after poor Marian.  

 

 

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On 10/14/2017 at 10:54 PM, jorge said:

Totally agree. Aside of her being an inconditional EB defender, she was awfully treated by Clean.

That's because she was a liar, and someone who passed along information she had promised would be confidential.  Sorry, no love for those who break their word.

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8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Yes she was a rogue. As I said, she just lifted stuff I wrote verbatim  for her site without asking me or even telling me. I still miss her.

You say rogue, I say unethical liar, and you added to it thief and plagiarist.

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8 hours ago, WetHog said:

There is only one person I can think of that felt so negativity towards Marian that he would of called her names, and he had no qualms about using foul language to make a point, was good old Gusmus.  But his issue with Marian, if I remember correctly, is she hired Gus to work for BYM during AC32 in Valencia and she terminated their business relationship at one point in the middle of AC32.  I believe their editorial opinions did not jibe and their may have also been an issue with unpaid debts.  Far from a bunch of Oraclites using vulgar terms directed at Marian.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Gussie and Marian had thier dispute and I think there was blame on both sides, but the real vitriol was from the west coast maf who hated her for defending EB, and couldn't believe that EB was not the only arsehole in his dispute with lazza and Russ...

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Wow she really was losing it at the end, I never heard that particular bit of paranoid delusion, but that wasn't the only one.

 

She was also convinced that Tracy Edwards was trying to take down BYM the same way some other guy was trying to take down SA (with Marian's help).   Not sure how many other boogeymen were going after poor Marian.  

 

 

There was nothing wrong with her mind when she died, as for lying that's rich coming from you, you've been conservative with the truth since you first showed up here...and revising history is your MO..

poor marian indeed..

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A one off post, to set the record straight.

Very few warned of the evils of Larry Ellison when he went after Alinghi and Ernesto Bertarelli. Everybody who did was seriously abused and accused of being both an Alinghi supporter and an apologist. Of that few, Marion was the only one who I can recall who really was a supporter and apologist, because she had an agenda and relationship she never disclosed. Clean is right that she couldn't be trusted, she dealt in mistruths (the original "false news"?) and was actually very bitter and didn't trust many, if any. But for all her faults, Marion was right about 2 people, Ellison and MSP, both of whom were touted as saviors of the AC and both of them were shown to be anything but. She deserves some credit for that.

The few I remember warning that there was no difference between Ellison and Berarelli were Marion, Dogwatch and myself. I am sure there were a couple of others, so sorry for not name checking them, but it was very, very few. 

The other big thing I remember was Spinbot and his promise that if Larry ever pulled any of the tricks that EB was accused of, he would be just as vigerous in his condemnation as he was against EB. That never happened. Shame on him.

FWIW, I believe that Clean was also in the camp of not trusting Ellison's intentions.

My final thought is that we now have a new defender and COR. Some are already suspicious and some are already totally blind to anything that may be wrong. The reality of the AC is that there will never be a perfect defender and there will always be mistakes. The reality is always in the event itself and AC34 was pretty special. AC35 was interesting for me but I suspect far less interesting for many. How AC36 will be judged will be interesting and I am pretty open minded about it. I think it is possible to hav spectacular monohulls, but I wonder how you do it and still get good match racing. However, I also suspect that match racing is way over rated in the AC and there have been very few occasions, if any, when proper match racing decided the AC. I will check back in after 2021 to see what the judgement is.

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59 minutes ago, SimonN said:

A one off post, to set the record straight.

Very few warned of the evils of Larry Ellison when he went after Alinghi and Ernesto Bertarelli. Everybody who did was seriously abused and accused of being both an Alinghi supporter and an apologist. Of that few, Marion was the only one who I can recall who really was a supporter and apologist, because she had an agenda and relationship she never disclosed. Clean is right that she couldn't be trusted, she dealt in mistruths (the original "false news"?) and was actually very bitter and didn't trust many, if any. But for all her faults, Marion was right about 2 people, Ellison and MSP, both of whom were touted as saviors of the AC and both of them were shown to be anything but. She deserves some credit for that.

The few I remember warning that there was no difference between Ellison and Berarelli were Marion, Dogwatch and myself. I am sure there were a couple of others, so sorry for not name checking them, but it was very, very few. 

The other big thing I remember was Spinbot and his promise that if Larry ever pulled any of the tricks that EB was accused of, he would be just as vigerous in his condemnation as he was against EB. That never happened. Shame on him.

FWIW, I believe that Clean was also in the camp of not trusting Ellison's intentions.

My final thought is that we now have a new defender and COR. Some are already suspicious and some are already totally blind to anything that may be wrong. The reality of the AC is that there will never be a perfect defender and there will always be mistakes. The reality is always in the event itself and AC34 was pretty special. AC35 was interesting for me but I suspect far less interesting for many. How AC36 will be judged will be interesting and I am pretty open minded about it. I think it is possible to hav spectacular monohulls, but I wonder how you do it and still get good match racing. However, I also suspect that match racing is way over rated in the AC and there have been very few occasions, if any, when proper match racing decided the AC. I will check back in after 2021 to see what the judgement is.

Nice to see you SimonN. 

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We might as well talk about Marian, there's fuck-all AC news and won't be until late November when there is further information about the boat.

This is what I wrote after her death was announced. I still quite like it.

I believe we should mourn the dead the way they'd want to be mourned, and we don't need to be too reverential about Marian. She liked a discussion. Actually she liked a bloody good argument. Like, it seems, many here, I was in PM discussion with Marian at times and I once asked her why she persisted here in the face of so much hostility. She said she wanted to present the truth as she saw it and counter the bias of this forum: ironically her own evident bias made few receptive to her arguments.

Having written some nice words about her a couple of months ago following the second "retirement" of BYM News, I'd smiled as she set out on yet another "farewell tour" but alas this time it really was her final fling.

I'd like to picture her right now on a cloud with George Schulyer, asking him why he made such a hash of writing the DoG. Unfortunately this time she won't be posting a link back to a BYM News article on her findings and nobody will be boasting (and lying) about not reading it. Goodbye Marian, it will be duller without you.

 

From this thread, SAAC at its best and worst.

 

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

We might as well talk about Marian, there's fuck-all AC news and won't be until late November when there is further information about the boat.

This is what I wrote after her death was announced. I still quite like it.

I believe we should mourn the dead the way they'd want to be mourned, and we don't need to be too reverential about Marian. She liked a discussion. Actually she liked a bloody good argument. Like, it seems, many here, I was in PM discussion with Marian at times and I once asked her why she persisted here in the face of so much hostility. She said she wanted to present the truth as she saw it and counter the bias of this forum: ironically her own evident bias made few receptive to her arguments.

Having written some nice words about her a couple of months ago following the second "retirement" of BYM News, I'd smiled as she set out on yet another "farewell tour" but alas this time it really was her final fling.

I'd like to picture her right now on a cloud with George Schulyer, asking him why he made such a hash of writing the DoG. Unfortunately this time she won't be posting a link back to a BYM News article on her findings and nobody will be boasting (and lying) about not reading it. Goodbye Marian, it will be duller without you.

 

From this thread, SAAC at its best and worst.

 

Thanks for the link...hope most of the old 'friends" in that thread are still healthy and will hopefully return for the AC36 threads...

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22 minutes ago, Indio said:

hope most of the old 'friends" in that thread are still healthy and will hopefully return for the AC36 threads..

Wow, I just read the thread and checked some of the old SA'rs profiles, some haven't showed up around here for a long time...

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4 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Wow, I just read the thread and checked some of the old SA'rs profiles, some haven't showed up around here for a long time...

Yeah it was like stepping back in time. I miss not seeing posts from our old friends from that thread..

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I wonder why I never posted in that thread?

Seem to recall being late to it, might have been away from home a few days?

Otherwise I guess chose not to post anything rather than something douchey.

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Good lord ( not dougie). 8 years allready. Lot's of water under the bridge.- We're getting older. The issue is not getting older, it's remembering we once were young.

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Yeah, really strange going through that thread. It was a wild time that helped keep my sanity by distracting me from dwelling on being out of work for a year and a half. With the economy like it was there was not much to work on looking for a job, so the time spent on the SAAC forums kept me going, sad to think of these days, seems like an eternity ago now.

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When we go back to this thread we are struck by the extreme agressivity of the posters.

My explanation is that most of them were stupidly naïve fans, thinking that EB was the devil, LE the white knight. Obviously both, not only had the same vision, but tweeked the Deed the same way, the second not doing the basic mistake of the first one.

TNZ is no much better, giving absolutely no right to other challengers thanks to a dark agreement, P$B supposingly defending their interests, hilarious.  And what is the answer ? Fuck you, that's the AC !

Basically, once a defender, W're the best, Fuck the rest. And that is the attitude a THE kiwi troll here, not necessary to name him or her.

I have more respect for GD speaking openly, with or without the truth, than for some naïve believers.

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5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

When we go back to this thread we are struck by the extreme agressivity of the posters.

My explanation is that most of them were stupidly naïve fans, thinking that EB was the devil, LE the white knight. Obviously both, not only had the same vision, but tweeked the Deed the same way, the second not doing the basic mistake of the first one.

TNZ is no much better, giving absolutely no right to other challengers thanks to a dark agreement, P$B supposingly defending their interests, hilarious.  And what is the answer ? Fuck you, that's the AC !

Basically, once a defender, W're the best, Fuck the rest. And that is the attitude a THE kiwi troll here, not necessary to name him or her.

I have more respect for GD speaking openly, with or without the truth, than for some naïve believers.

EB was screwing the DoG and LE made the appearance that he was going to do right by it. Only after getting his hands on it did the real LE appear, EB 'lite' with a more proper challenger YC instead of a fabricated one. I thought Oakley and HIYC were going to be OK but that did not last. Along with cost I wonder if health was concern seeing that he did not last that much longer past their withdrawal.

The defender dealing directly with the CoR is not bad, it is the way it should be. It will be the responsibility of the challengers to keep LR honest. RNZYS only has the obligation to worry about who shows-up on race day. I do not think there was ever any challengers 'commision' back in the day, they had to deal with the CoR. Same with the defense candidates, they had to deal with the NYYC and the club could do as they pleased since it was their defense to win. That is why they did not run a defender selection series, only trials where they did keep score but were ultimately looking for the best boat and crew that they thought could defend the Cup. Other than that they did not care.

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2 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

EB was screwing the DoG and LE made the appearance that he was going to do right by it. Only after getting his hands on it did the real LE appear, EB 'lite' with a more proper challenger YC instead of a fabricated one. I thought Oakley and HIYC were going to be OK but that did not last. Along with cost I wonder if health was concern seeing that he did not last that much longer past their withdrawal.

The defender dealing directly with the CoR is not bad, it is the way it should be. It will be the responsibility of the challengers to keep LR honest. RNZYS only has the obligation to worry about who shows-up on race day. I do not think there was ever any challengers 'commision' back in the day, they had to deal with the CoR. Same with the defense candidates, they had to deal with the NYYC and the club could do as they pleased since it was their defense to win. That is why they did not run a defender selection series, only trials where they did keep score but were ultimately looking for the best boat and crew that they thought could defend the Cup. Other than that they did not care.

I do not blame the fans at the time, they were just naïve.

I have never been an Oracle supporter, everybody here knows that, but I have to be honest, both EB and LE offered much more to the challengers.

Most kiwis hated EB and than LE, the irony is that TNZ is even more biased with the challengers than former bad guys. More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

Perhaps because I supported TNZ until now I don't want to blame them for that, I think they just had no choice with P$B.

I agree with most of your post but not that it will be challengers responsability to oblige the CoR to do well, at the end it's defender responsability.

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The normal historical standard has been that the CoR convenes a Challenger group & takes consensus to negotiate with the Defender.

This protocol is returning to that & its a good thing.

 

The bizarre spectacle of the London 5 coordinating with the Defender to skew the rules in favour of the Defender, that was perverse & people should be ashamed for supporting it.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

When we go back to this thread we are struck by the extreme agressivity of the posters.

My explanation is that most of them were stupidly naïve fans, thinking that EB was the devil, LE the white knight. Obviously both, not only had the same vision, but tweeked the Deed the same way, the second not doing the basic mistake of the first one.

TNZ is no much better, giving absolutely no right to other challengers thanks to a dark agreement, P$B supposingly defending their interests, hilarious.  And what is the answer ? Fuck you, that's the AC !

Basically, once a defender, W're the best, Fuck the rest. And that is the attitude a THE kiwi troll here, not necessary to name him or her.

I have more respect for GD speaking openly, with or without the truth, than for some naïve believers.

ETNZ has been defender multiple times before...

Please illuminate us as to when they fucked others as hard as EB and LE did...

Of course, then consider that EB and LE fucked ETNZ without prejudice

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49 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

ETNZ has been defender multiple times before...

Please illuminate us as to when they fucked others as hard as EB and LE did...

Of course, then consider that EB and LE fucked ETNZ without prejudice

Ignore TC. He seems to have spun out of control since the demise of the AC50s. 

He's normally a pain in the arse but I could generally see his point. At the moment,  I can't figure out what crawled up his arse.

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TC usually gets lost when it comes to Protocol matters.

^^^ The only thing HIYC ever had going for it was having a paid OTUSA schill in place to 'negotiate' the AC35 Protocol - with OTUSA.

That set the tone for all the self-serving manoeuvres to follow - and is apparently the standard TC doubts RNZYC & CVS can come up to! :lol:

Is there a single poster from a losing team (those that even had a team) not trolling?

 

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

Why do you keep persisting with this?  We've explained it a dozen different ways to Sunday why you're wrong, yet you keep throwing out this "deed non-compliant" BS.  When you can show us that each "replacement challenger" as you call them has to file a new challenge with each passing of the torch, then you will have a basis for your argument.

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9 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I do not blame the fans at the time, they were just naïve.

I have never been an Oracle supporter, everybody here knows that, but I have to be honest, both EB and LE offered much more to the challengers.

Most kiwis hated EB and than LE, the irony is that TNZ is even more biased with the challengers than former bad guys. More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

Perhaps because I supported TNZ until now I don't want to blame them for that, I think they just had no choice with P$B.

I agree with most of your post but not that it will be challengers responsability to oblige the CoR to do well, at the end it's defender responsability.

When a replacement challenger wins the selection series the original challenge is withdrawn, settling the original challenge, then the new challenge is submitted based on the winner of the selection series. I remember this being discussed when OR lost on '07 and withdrawing their challenge, then ETNZ filing the replacement challenge. That way it remains DoG compliant that no other challenge can be accepted until the current one is settled. It should be in there on the transfer of the challenge if someone other than the CoR. We all know it is a formality since the multi-challenger format was accepted by the NYYC, but should be followed to comply with the terms of the DoG and not leave an opening for someone with enough money to drag it through the courts.

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10 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1: I do not blame the fans at the time, they were just naïve.

2: I have never been an Oracle supporter, everybody here knows that, but I have to be honest, both EB and LE offered much more to the challengers.

3: Most kiwis hated EB and than LE, the irony is that TNZ is even more biased with the challengers than former bad guys. More, IMO, the requirements for being a replacement challenger are not even Deed compliant. (Rennie was the first to see it)

4: Perhaps because I supported TNZ until now I don't want to blame them for that, I think they just had no choice with P$B.

5: I agree with most of your post but not that it will be challengers responsability to oblige the CoR to do well, at the end it's defender responsability.

re. 1: Never been naïve, I assume, many of us just did not care. The most pressing problem was getting rid of SNG/EB/Alinghi and their made-up CoR. Then, we could bitch about the next problems, which were GGYC/LE/Oracle. This way we ensured permanent fun.

re. 2: As long as the DoG is honored, all is good. No need for the Defender to "offer" anything to the Challenger(s). 

re. 3: I was educated by several posters here (thanks for that!) that I read the phrase in a wrong way, respectively drew the wrong conclusions. All is good as it is, as the Challengers have to deal with the CoR, and the CoR can set up requirements for the CSS participation at its own discretion. In fact, as the CoR does not even need to set up a CSS, the YCs/teams that will take part in the CSS are lucky that this opportunity is there.
It would have been better to separate the Defender/CoR = AC section in the Protocol from the CoR/Challengers = CSS sections more clearly, but maybe it was just me not reading carefully enough.

re. 4: Most of us do not know what has been negotiated between RNZYS and CVS, but since you speculate, I do too: I think, GD is very happy with the outcome of the negotiations (Protocol and boat).  

re. 5: The CSS is not the Defender's responsibility, not at all. This is what went so totally wrong during AC34 and 35. The Defender should keep its hands away from the CSS, as it is solely the CoR's playground - and has been since it was established and until EB (first AC33 protocol) and later LE came along. As a consequence, it's up to the other Clallengers to keep the CoR honest.

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14 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Please illuminate us as to when they fucked others as hard as EB and LE did...

Of course, then consider that EB and LE fucked ETNZ without prejudice

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

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6 hours ago, ezyb said:

Why do you keep persisting with this?  We've explained it a dozen different ways to Sunday why you're wrong, yet you keep throwing out this "deed non-compliant" BS.  When you can show us that each "replacement challenger" as you call them has to file a new challenge with each passing of the torch, then you will have a basis for your argument.

Just think of him as Inspector Jacques Clouseau and everything he posts becomes easier to ignore.

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If ETNZ thought the Oracle AC Protocols were in any way unfair then they would not have structured their own to be so similar, to then proclaim (with reason) its fairness.

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23 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

Not to mention how in 2 successive competitions against Oracle under Oracle AC Protocols, ETNZ dang nearly won the first and did win the second. 

Toss out a lot of conspiratorial bullshit and you're left facing the fact that things were fair, it was a level playing field.

ETNZ did address the one flaw in the AC36 Protocol: The Class Rule can't ever be changed to a different one except by full consent of all competitors. Even if it might ultimately be a good idea to do so, it clearly won't happen - the Prot has that 75' monohull essentially signed and chiseled in stone.

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Pathetic revisionism - the AC35 Protocol said exactly the same thing, changes to AC Class Rule only by unanimous vote.

.....and this classic bit of spin: "Oh look, that team came 2nd in a 2 team competition what wonderful fair rules there must have been" :(

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The point is, that in the AC36 Prot they can't change to a different Class from the AC75, which is already defined to be a 75' Monohull. Yes, the internals of that rule could be otherwise changed after COR/D sign to it, but only by unanimous vote.

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44 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

If you look at the pattern, anytime you juke with the rules, you lose.

EB in 2010 and LE in 2017. 2007 & 2013 were fairly clean.

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10 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

The end justifies the means?? No thanks. ETNZ learned the hard way - 2003 Bertarelli gutted TNZ who never managed to fill the void left by the departees and lost. 2007 ETNZ were good enough but made mistakes - including persevering with Barker. 2013 they were cheated out of the Cup. 2017 they learned from 2013 and humiliated the cheaters.

Nothing wrong with remembering history so we never repeat the mistakes of the past.

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18 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The point is, that in the AC36 Prot they can't change to a different Class from the AC75, which is already defined to be a 75' Monohull. Yes, the internals of that rule could be otherwise changed after COR/D sign to it, but only by unanimous vote.

That's easy to understand. It's ETNZ running the show, not the cheating self-dealing OR-Xerox mob who thankfully are gone. You're too dumb bitter and twisted to see the certainty for Challengers knowing the AC75 won't be changed to an AC50.5 as the cheaters OR-Xerox did in AC35.

Keep drowning in the kool-aid. Btw, why aren't you rooting for the African Diaspora Maritime Challenge?:lol:

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Getting totally sick of this victim mentality and excuses from ETNZ fanboys. It's the mentality of losers. In 2003, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2007, EB won because TNZ was not good enough. In 2013, OR won because ETNZ was not good enough. In 2017, ETNZ won because they were the best. It doesn't matter what the defender does, if you are the best you will win. ETNZ as a team realised that and delivered. It is a shame the fanboys don't seem to get it.

Geez - projecting much?

Let me break it down for your small.little.mind

I never suggested ETNZ were victims mate, those are your words... the point was made by TC that the defender always fucks people because of recent history proving this, and that ETNZ as now the defender will become the fucker.

I don't agree, so I then responded that if you look back far enough you can find multiple times the defender didn't fuck anyone, and that in many of these cases that defender was ETNZ - still waiting for someone to argue this is wrong btw...

I *also* added EB and LE fucked others - including themselves and ETNZ - and did so at times even when they weren't the defender.

My point was the EB and LE are always fuckers irrespective of holding the cup, and holding the cup doesn't make you a fucker, as evidenced by ETNZ...

If you don't understand that you are the victim - of too few brain cells or too many jugs...

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8 hours ago, ezyb said:

 We've explained it a dozen different ways to Sunday why you're wrong, yet you keep throwing out this "deed non-compliant" BS.  When you can show us that each "replacement challenger" as you call them has to file a new challenge with each passing of the torch, then you will have a basis for your argument.

I understood what you said but I am not sure you understood mine. Have you read 6.3. If all challenges are received at the same time and have to comply with the Deed, how can some require different conditions than the Deed itself ?

If the CoR may impose his requirements to other challengers, how can the defender treat differently equivalent challenges ?

For the purposes of the Deed of Gift, all challenges accepted by RNZYS ( {'Challenges") shall be deemed to have been received by the RNZYS at the same time, being the time of the conclusion of the Final Race 2017.

 

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7 hours ago, Rennmaus said:


re. 2: As long as the DoG is honored, all is good. No need for the Defender to "offer" anything to the Challenger(s). 
re. 5: The CSS is not the Defender's responsibility, not at all. This is what went so totally wrong during AC34 and 35. The Defender should keep its hands away from the CSS, as it is solely the CoR's playground - and has been since it was established and until EB (first AC33 protocol) and later LE came along. As a consequence, it's up to the other Clallengers to keep the CoR honest.

2. I agree with you but was comparing with the 2 previous "evils"

5. I understand your vision, but it not about the CoR only, all challengers apply to RNZYS

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If ETNZ thought the Oracle AC Protocols were in any way unfair then they would not have structured their own to be so similar, to then proclaim (with reason) its fairness.

It will depend of LR behaviour

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Bit of a change of pace here, not exactly a protocol subject, but any thoughts on which sail brands might try to outfit AC teams?

North is clearly the default choice, but with Quantum in the race, they will likely want their wardrobe on display for at least their own team.

Are there any other likely vendors? Has anyone other than North been used since 2003? North, Quantum .. who are the best of the rest?

 

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