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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Point Break

Gun Recommendation

210 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

 No need to rack the gun in an effort to scare anyone away. I used that to warn assholes that I was getting ready to greet them and that would break them up a little since they were just looking for trouble. Anyone coming in your space is looking for more than trouble... 

It's an interesting thing - it seems that the sound of a shotgun being racked is instinctively known by everyone even if they've never heard it before - it seems to exist on some visceral level like the roar of a big cat or the growl of a dog.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Thanks Streamer.

Seems to all go out the window when guns are involved - sort of like pregnancy, either you are or you aren't.

Even the fact that I have owned guns and shoot sometimes carries no weight with the true gunnies if they perceive some sort of criticism - I must want their weapons confiscated.

My first pistol target.

 

 

First Pistol Target.JPG

I guess your instructor must have used a firearm in self defense in the past to have taught you so well? 

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I didn't have an "instructor" as such - my kid the cop - whose Smith 9 we were using - showed me around the weapon and then I just started slinging lead. ;)

I've always been a good shot - ever since I got my first .22 at age 12 - 54 years ago.

If I wanted advice on a defensive weapon I think my kid is knowledgeable enough - he was solicited to be a weapons instructor for the RCMP.

 

And just by the way, my questionable question was just curiosity, not criticism but as I noted to Streamer, gunnies can be pretty touchy.

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Sorry, I misunderstood your post to mean no one should opine if they hadn't shot someone. 

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Seems a lot of gunnies thought that too.

I thought prefacing it with "serious question" might alleviate that defensiveness ;) but nooooo.

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18 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I didn't have an "instructor" as such - my kid the cop - whose Smith 9 we were using - showed me around the weapon and then I just started slinging lead. ;)

I've always been a good shot - ever since I got my first .22 at age 12 - 54 years ago.

If I wanted advice on a defensive weapon I think my kid is knowledgeable enough - he was solicited to be a weapons instructor for the RCMP.

 

And just by the way, my questionable question was just curiosity, not criticism but as I noted to Streamer, gunnies can be pretty touchy.

Well, I didn't exactly say that but as a gunnie myself, I tend to agree with it. 

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21 hours ago, Mark K said:

Defending the mobile home? Shotgun will do splendidly. Nothing packs more stopping power, period. First load can be rock-<chrome_find class="find_in_page">salt</chrome_find> to hopefully mitigate a mistake and/or educate a drunken punk who has convinced himself you haven't got the guts to fire.  

   

Total fallacy for the rock salt!  If you have reason to shoot, you shoot to kill!  No Hollywood.  No 'Just shoot him in the leg'!  You shoot in the K Zone until the threat is stopped!  The first shot of Double Aught should be enough to let the perp know that you are serious!  

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

It's an interesting thing - it seems that the sound of a shotgun being racked is instinctively known by everyone even if they've never heard it before - it seems to exist on some visceral level like the roar of a big cat or the growl of a dog.

You're absolutely right about the sound!

It just takes a half second longer and I think the muzzle flash and thunderous roar will do a better job even if you miss and they haul ass. Just survival in confined quarters.

Anyway, the dog was already barking and you can always yell "I've got a gun and I'm gonna use it!!!" At the top of your lungs when the pry bar is in the doorjamb...that's all the warning you can legally use anyway:(. In most states racking the firing pin before the actual confrontation occurs can cause trouble.

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5 hours ago, Dorado said:
8 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Apparently so, according to what I saw on calguns. As I mentioned earlier, if you're one of those people who is $pecial to a Sheriff and can get a concealed weapons permit, it would make things easier.

The real process:

http://legalbeagle.com/5136430-concealed-weapons-permit-los-angeles.html

PB has no chance at the "show good cause" part, so unless he's $pecial to a Sheriff, no chance of getting a permit. The rest of that discussion belongs here.

PB does indeed have a decent chance of obtaining a permit. Firefighters are held in very high esteem in Southern California. The show good cause Clause is a filter used at the sheriff's discretion to reject the deplorables. A distinguished gentleman of PB's caliber does have a realistic chance.

It's worth a try

I guess a fireman could just be special without being $pecial. I'd be interested to see the outcome.

Our deplorables can just get a permit by meeting the objective requirements, even if the Sheriff doesn't care for them, but very few seem to do so.

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On 9/4/2017 at 0:07 PM, SloopJonB said:

Serious question - has anyone on this thread ever fired a gun at another person in self defense?

Has your son ever fired a gun at another person in self defense?

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14 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Has your son ever fired a gun at another person in self defense?

Don't think that question is appropriate to ask

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2 hours ago, silent bob said:

Total fallacy for the rock salt!  If you have reason to shoot, you shoot to kill!  No Hollywood.  No 'Just shoot him in the leg'!  You shoot in the K Zone until the threat is stopped!  The first shot of Double Aught should be enough to let the perp know that you are serious!  

It doesn't feel near as good as you think it does. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:
1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Has your son ever fired a gun at another person in self defense?

Don't think that question is appropriate to ask

It's not how I qualify instructors, but it's how Sloop does, so I was wondering. Most of our cops have never shot anyone in self defense, Unfortunately, a large number of them would not be good firearms instructors, but not for that reason. Just because they're not interested.

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It's interesting (or maybe not....) I compete in "practical shooting" competitions, and we often see two phenomena with cops.... one, at their first match they have the attitude that they're going to do really well because they carry a gun all day and they qualify once or twice a year.... and then, two, they go away a little more humble after they get their asses handed to them. 

At my home club, for example, one of our regulars is an unimpressive-looking woman (by that I mean, doesn't look like she'd be a pro-athlete) who is actually a multi-time world champion in IPSC... we're all used to being beat by her, but apparently that's hard for a cop to absorb.  Many times cops never come back for a second match... but if we do see them for a second match, they tend to advance pretty quickly, because they learn a lot about prioritizing accuracy *and* speed *and* movement, which is something their qualification program doesn't apparently cover.

The average cop may shoot a couple of boxes (100 rounds) of ammunition in the course of a year, generally when it is time to re-qual.  Our average competitor shoots 300-400 rounds a *week* in practice, and a couple hundred more at each match.  Just carrying a gun does not make one an expert... as with many things, there's no substitute for thoughtful and intentful skill-building

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Thanks Streamer.

Seems to all go out the window when guns are involved - sort of like pregnancy, either you are or you aren't.

Even the fact that I have owned guns and shoot sometimes carries no weight with the true gunnies if they perceive some sort of criticism - I must want their weapons confiscated.

My first pistol target.

 

 

First Pistol Target.JPG

Nice, at least you have the choice to own and fire them. 

We don't have that choice. Unless of course you're a criminal. 

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

:(. In most states racking the firing pin before the actual confrontation occurs can cause trouble.

Where did you come up with this? Racking the firing pin? Wtf does that even mean?

 

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Has your son ever fired a gun at another person in self defense?

Thankfully not. Hasn't been shot at either.

With the increasingly violent gun activity amongst the punk gangsters here it could happen any time though. Luckily they rousted them pretty thoroughly out of his area and they seem to be concentrated out in the valley now - ironically that's also the local Bible Belt.

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55 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

It's not how I qualify instructors, but it's how Sloop does, so I was wondering. Most of our cops have never shot anyone in self defense, Unfortunately, a large number of them would not be good firearms instructors, but not for that reason. Just because they're not interested.

If you actually fucking READ what I wrote and - heaven forbid, thought about it - instead of sort of looking at every third word and plugging in your own assumptions, you would know that's NOT what I said.

But that would require you to be something less than a fanatic so.....

Nevermind.

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On 9/4/2017 at 5:08 AM, Point Break said:

So.........I'm going to be traveling a bit in a month or two and RV camping in some remote places along the Cali Coast and maybe Oregon as well. It will just be myself and the dog. I'm considering acquiring a handgun for self protection. Wondering what our resident gun afficinados might recommend.  A few parameters below:

1) I won't be target shooting for pleasure/sport so that isn't a factor in choice.

2) The range would be quite close because avoidance is my primary strategy. I doubt if I would use it any farther than 5-10 feet away. 

3) My primary concern isn't critters, its opportunistic bad guys. The scenario I am planning for is a break in and confrontation inside the RV at night while sleeping. I think I can avoid most any other situation. Hopefully the dog would be enough of a deterrent/warning that the use would not ever be necessary. I do not plan to carry it around.

4) I won't be using it or having it available at home. I'm happy with my current situation and plans should the very unlikely intrusion happen there. My plan is to keep it very locked away safely when home.

I've used both handguns and a variety of semi and auto weapons in the military (45+ years ago) and am not at all uncomfortable with handling and firing one. I can handle a reasonably large caliber weapon. I was very good at the range with the old classic military 1911. I'm very fastidious about my "stuff" so cleaning and care won't be a problem. I don't know anything about the current handgun choices. 

Recommendations?

PB assuming you've researched the laws and will be in compliance - honestly I would recommend any semi-auto handgun that feels comfortable to YOU. Any of a number of top brands and models will be all equally effective. THE most important thing is to try several out and find one that fits your hand and is comfortable to shoot. Some people love Glock, others hate them. Same with a 1911 style frame. 

My advice is to to to an indoor range nearby and try several of the common brands - Glock 21 or 23. Springfield XD, Ruger, S&W, the myriad of 1911 clones etc.  Focus on how it fits your hands how it feels when your raise it to the eyeline, how the sight feel, etc. and given your application of an intruder in the dark, make sure it has night sights. You don't need all the fancy laser and red dot sights.  Weed out the ones you pick up and go, nope.  You'll know. Test shoot a box of Ammo through each gun that fits your hand and might be a candidate  

As someone said, I would stick to one of the bigger calibers like .40S&W or .45. 9mm would be the smallest I'd consider and it will do the job.  But you don't know if you're going to face some meth head hopped up looking for money to get his next fix I would rather have the bigger knockdown power of the bigger calibers.

Based on your requirements - you do not need a small concealable handgun.  So go for a basic normal side frame.  No need to go for the really tiny guns that you can hide under a T-shirt.  Personally I would look at a good 1911.  Especially if you were comfortable with it before in the .mil

I disagree with the shotty recommendation for this main reason:   because in the tight space of an RV, it will be unwieldy and slow to get out and into action. An RV is obviously MUCH smaller than a typical house.  Very tight spaces.  You want something that you can get out of your lock box before you go to bed or once parked and have it immediately at hand.  A handgun is also much easier to secure when your driving and away from the RV.  I also disagree with Mark's rock salt suggestion. Sorry, but you shoot to STOP an intruder in a self defense situation. You do not shoot to wound or to scare.  If you can't live with that mindset, then stick with just the dog and takes your chances. 

Im a big fan of a shotgun or a rifle in a full size house where there is a lot of room and time before an intruder can get to your bedroom after kicking in the back door.  But in a RV, you are essentially sleeping right next to the door for all intents and purposes. 

Finally once you decide - PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! as tom said, it has to be almost muscle memory. When you can comfortably raise from a "ready" position and double tap into the center of Mass consistently at 10-15 ft, then you are ready to hit the road.  

One last thing, I have nothing against revolvers - but I think a semi-auto is far superior in a SD situation.  They are slower to fire accurately because of the double pull for every trigger shot, they have too limited a round capacity and they are slow to reload.  There is a reason every military and every police force in the world has moved away from revolvers. THey are fine weapons and in the hands of a super practiced wheel gun shooter - they can be just as fast and accurate.  But for the average mortal, no way!  

Good luck.

a related question if it's not out of bounds for me asking - why the sudden solo road trip in an RV?  Getting bored in retirement?  

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

It doesn't feel near as good as you think it does. 

Again, you don't shoot to Injure, you shoot to KILL!  If you don't have the right to kill, you don't have the right to shoot!  Once you have pulled the trigger, you keep pulling the trigger until the threat has stopped.  If you don't follow these rules, you end up as the dead one or the one in the back of the Police Car!  This is not Hollywood!  

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Just now, silent bob said:

This is not Hollywood!  

Don't kid yourself - 95%+ of it IS Hollywood.

The vast majority of gun enthusiasm is thinly veiled Rambo fantasies - I've seen it countless times at the range.

 

Fat slob with gun.jpg

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On 9/4/2017 at 9:09 PM, SloopJonB said:
On 9/4/2017 at 8:15 PM, Chum said:

So, if you were looking for firearms instruction you would discount anyone who hasn't shot someone in self defense?

I would give a lot more credence to someone who had used a gun to defend themselves - as opposed to someone who was just a gun enthusiast.

Idiot. Most golf "pros" have never golfed in professional tournaments. Most race car driving "instructors" have likely never professionally raced in pro circuit. 

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Yeah, and your a genius - a golf swing is no different than shooting at a person, particularly one who might be shooting back. :rolleyes:

Good to know that you know so much about the reality of guns, self defense, shooting and being shot at.

I'll definitely hire you as my self defense instructor.

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21 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

don't have to worry about aim...   the slide action noise will scare most people off

 

80215.jpg

Both of those myths are BS!  

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6 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Again, you don't shoot to Injure, you shoot to KILL!  If you don't have the right to kill, you don't have the right to shoot!  Once you have pulled the trigger, you keep pulling the trigger until the threat has stopped.  If you don't follow these rules, you end up as the dead one or the one in the back of the Police Car!  This is not Hollywood!  

A load of rock salt can stop a threat.

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6 minutes ago, Mark K said:

A load of rock salt can stop a threat.

A load of Rock Salt can stop a threat.  A few rounds of Double Aught WILL stop a threat!  When facing an intruder, do you want to debate the difference?

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9 minutes ago, Mark K said:

A load of rock salt can stop a threat.

Probably

But... pulling that trigger is considered "use of deadly force", no matter what's in the shell.  So the discriminating factor is whether or not the use of deadly force was justified.

Using rock-salt doesn't get you around that.  If you fired rock-salt in what turned out to be a *not*-justified encounter, at the very least you'd be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon".  Same as if you'd fired a load of double-ought.

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6 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Probably

But... pulling that trigger is considered "use of deadly force", no matter what's in the shell.  So the discriminating factor is whether or not the use of deadly force was justified.

Using rock-salt doesn't get you around that.  If you fired rock-salt in what turned out to be a *not*-justified encounter, at the very least you'd be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon".  Same as if you'd fired a load of double-ought.

It is better to be on trial for wrongly wounding someone than wrongly killing them.  

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19 minutes ago, Mark K said:

It is better to be on trial for wrongly wounding someone than wrongly killing them.  

It's better to be sure it is truly a "deadly-force is justified" scenario before you pull the trigger.

ObNote, a load of rock-salt can kill.  Hell, people have died being shot with *blanks*. 

Bottom line (for me) - pulling the trigger in the defense of myself or others is the absolute last resort, and if needed, it's not about "warning", or "wounding", it's all or nothing.  My life or theirs.  If I'm not prepared to go "there", I'm not going to pull the trigger.  No matter what's in the chamber.

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Don't kid yourself - 95%+ of it IS Hollywood.

The vast majority of gun enthusiasm is thinly veiled Rambo fantasies - I've seen it countless times at the range.

 

Fat slob with gun.jpg

You're  practicing at the wrong range. I wouldn't shoot at a place where 95% of the shooters were Rambo types.

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We have limited options but I've been at a few, both indoor and outdoor and there was plenty of "fondling" of the weapons going on at both.

When I was managing the early cash machines as part of my operation we had armoured car people servicing them and more than a few admitted taking the job because they got to pack.

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

Probably

But... pulling that trigger is considered "use of deadly force", no matter what's in the shell.  So the discriminating factor is whether or not the use of deadly force was justified.

Using rock-salt doesn't get you around that.  If you fired rock-salt in what turned out to be a *not*-justified encounter, at the very least you'd be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon".  Same as if you'd fired a load of double-ought.

Wouldn't that be "A Salt with a deadly weapon" ?

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

It is better to be on trial for wrongly wounding someone than wrongly killing them.  

Actually, you would probably be better off if there was only one side of the story presented to the jury...just sayin...

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

It is better to be on trial for wrongly wounding someone than wrongly killing them.  

24 minutes ago, Timo42 said:

Actually, you would probably be better off if there was only one side of the story presented to the jury...just sayin...

I'd rather be on trial than DEAD!  Very little chance of being prosecuted for using deadly force inside your domicile.  

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On 9/3/2017 at 10:08 PM, Point Break said:

I was very good at the range with the old classic military 1911. 

Recommendations?

Get a 1911.  It's a good pistol.  .45 is a good round.

 

The downside is there's a zillion 1911's ranging from excellent in quality to horseshit.  I have a match grade Springfield I'm happy with, but I wouldn't take that as a recommendation.

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Time for a reading from the Good Book...

jmblogo (2k gif)
As translated from the original ancient manuscripts by Fr. Frog.
© copyright 2002, 2015 by John C. Schaefer

 1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good.  And behold the Lord said, "Thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith.  For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain."

 2 "And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm."

 3 And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911.  The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4 Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase.  For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it,  and these profaners didst try and fit more rounds of ammunition into the magazines than the holy number of seven, appointed for the .45.

5 And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord.  For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim.  And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. a

6 And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7 Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

 8 And being a deceitful spirit, the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

 9 And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10 But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken.  Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11 And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men.  And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12 Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the Lord had intended.

13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation b by the followers of John.


a  Several old manuscripts add the following text. "And they [also rendered as "these men"] didst chamber it for cartridges who's calibers startith with numbers less than the Holy Number 4.  And lo the Lord did cause great grief amongst these men when their enemies who were struck in battle with these lesser numbers didst not fall but did continue to cause great harm."

b or Hell

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On 9/4/2017 at 3:09 PM, SloopJonB said:

I would give a lot more credence to someone who had used a gun to defend themselves - as opposed to someone who was just a gun enthusiast.

It's called credibility.

I wouldn't. For example, you can dig up the old Gun Nutter thread and find numerous examples of untrained people who used a gun exactly once in their lives, in self defense. They lived to tell about it. That doesn't mean they know a lot about the subject. People who have studied the subject can know more despite not having that one traumatic incident. Glad to hear your son hasn't had such an incident but I do take issue with your idea that such an incident necessarily qualifies someone as an authority with credibility on the subject.

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My recommendation would be to drop any weapons you have in your house  or boat in salt water for a week, then rinse and repeat.  

You'll be much safer.

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PB I have a few guns to choose from.

when I go in my RV I always take the same gun. Springfield XD40 4" barrel with a taclight mounted on the bottom. 

 I have used it once to deter a fella from entering my RV. hence the Taclight. when you hit the switch it lights up the world and scares the bejeesus out of 99% of criminals. the last 1% get the business end.

 

40 cal is nice as it hits your hand similar to 9mm but hits the bad guys like a 45. cheap ammo to buy and readily available. I have two Springfield pistols and they are rock sold for reliability. comfortable in your hand, easy target aquisition. I would trust my life to that gun without question. 

 

If not the 40 I would suggest a 38 revolver. only thing more reliable than that is a hammer. 

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On Tuesday, September 05, 2017 at 6:01 AM, Caferacer59 said:

Bob and Mae come up from little town
Way down by lake Texoma where he coaches football
They were two A champions now for two years running
But he says they won't be this year no they won't be this year
And he stopped off in Tushka at that "Pop's Knife and Gun" place
Bought a SKS rifle and a couple a full cases of that steel core ammo
With the berdan primers from some East bloc nation that no longer needs 'em
And a Desert Eagle that's one great big ol' pistol 
I mean .50 caliber made by bad ass Hebrews 
And some surplus tracers for that old BAR of Slayton's
Soon as it gets dark we're gonna have us a time
We're gonna have us a time

My cousin Roscoe is Slayton's oldest boy from his second marriage up in Illinois. Raised in East St Louis, by his mama's people, where they do things different, thought he just come on down

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THE biggest advantage of the 38 revolver is the ability of your wife to use it instinctively and safely should the need arise when you are not around.

Caveat : you always have to be nice to her. 

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16 hours ago, silent bob said:

 

I'd rather be on trial than DEAD!  Very little chance of being prosecuted for using deadly force inside your domicile.  

definately. i'd rather be trialed by my pairs then carried by my friends.

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Wondered if the question would turn into a shitfest..................shouldn't have (wondered that is).............

But there were some pearls in there for me to consider. Thanks to those who directed your answers at the OP. A little more research in the direction of some of the suggestions and I'll decide.

Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Dorado said:

My cousin Roscoe is Slayton's oldest boy from his second marriage up in Illinois. Raised in East St Louis, by his mama's people, where they do things different, thought he just come on down

We should hijack this thread to point out that James McMurtry is the greatest living songwriter in america today.  There is a lot to choose from but complicated game is a master piece.  Anyone from the Chesapeake Bay should listed to the Carlisles Haul track 

By the way:  Roscoe tried to miss em, but he didn't quite......

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1 hour ago, Dorado said:

THE biggest advantage of the 38 revolver is the ability of your wife to use it instinctively and safely should the need arise when you are not around.

Caveat : you always have to be nice to her. 

Don't you be yelling at me when I'm cleaning my gun

I'll wash the blood of the tailgate when deer seasons done. 

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3 hours ago, Caferacer59 said:

We should hijack this thread to point out that James McMurtry is the greatest living songwriter in america today.  There is a lot to choose from but complicated game is a master piece.  Anyone from the Chesapeake Bay should listed to the Carlisles Haul track 

By the way:  Roscoe tried to miss em, but he didn't quite......

"Ruth Ann and Lynn they wear them cut off britches and those skinny little halters
And they're second cousins to me
Man I don't care I want to get between 'em
With a great big ol' hard on like a old bois d' arc fence post"...

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22 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Both of those myths are BS!  

From personal experience during Ivan, I can assure you the second one isn't...

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5 minutes ago, Grabbler said:

From personal experience during Ivan, I can assure you the second one isn't...

Probably a good thing if you can't aim for shit. 

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

Probably a good thing if you can't aim for shit. 

Both of those fuckers were waaaay bigger than a dove if I'd had to shoot...

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2 minutes ago, Grabbler said:

Both of those fuckers were waaaay bigger than a dove if I'd had to shoot...

Big fucker stationary at 10-15 feet is one thing, a dove flying at 40-60 yards away is something completely different. 

 

Thanks for for proving my point. 

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59 minutes ago, Grabbler said:

From personal experience during Ivan, I can assure you the second one isn't...

Plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that

But 

It will betray your location and signal your intentions. Could be a big problem in some scenarios. The steely - eyed bastard that I trained with was of the opinion that stealth was always the best option. 

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Stealth is always the best option.

I used to tell my girlfriends that...... "If you never hear me coming, you won't get pregnant...."

I can't say it worked 100% of the time, but it was worth a shot...... So to speak......

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On 9/5/2017 at 4:51 PM, Shootist Jeff said:

PB assuming you've researched the laws and will be in compliance - honestly I would recommend any semi-auto handgun that feels comfortable to YOU. Any of a number of top brands and models will be all equally effective. THE most important thing is to try several out and find one that fits your hand and is comfortable to shoot. Some people love Glock, others hate them. Same with a 1911 style frame. 

My advice is to to to an indoor range nearby and try several of the common brands - Glock 21 or 23. Springfield XD, Ruger, S&W, the myriad of 1911 clones etc.  Focus on how it fits your hands how it feels when your raise it to the eyeline, how the sight feel, etc. and given your application of an intruder in the dark, make sure it has night sights. You don't need all the fancy laser and red dot sights.  Weed out the ones you pick up and go, nope.  You'll know. Test shoot a box of Ammo through each gun that fits your hand and might be a candidate  

As someone said, I would stick to one of the bigger calibers like .40S&W or .45. 9mm would be the smallest I'd consider and it will do the job.  But you don't know if you're going to face some meth head hopped up looking for money to get his next fix I would rather have the bigger knockdown power of the bigger calibers.

Based on your requirements - you do not need a small concealable handgun.  So go for a basic normal side frame.  No need to go for the really tiny guns that you can hide under a T-shirt.  Personally I would look at a good 1911.  Especially if you were comfortable with it before in the .mil

I disagree with the shotty recommendation for this main reason:   because in the tight space of an RV, it will be unwieldy and slow to get out and into action. An RV is obviously MUCH smaller than a typical house.  Very tight spaces.  You want something that you can get out of your lock box before you go to bed or once parked and have it immediately at hand.  A handgun is also much easier to secure when your driving and away from the RV.  I also disagree with Mark's rock salt suggestion. Sorry, but you shoot to STOP an intruder in a self defense situation. You do not shoot to wound or to scare.  If you can't live with that mindset, then stick with just the dog and takes your chances. 

Im a big fan of a shotgun or a rifle in a full size house where there is a lot of room and time before an intruder can get to your bedroom after kicking in the back door.  But in a RV, you are essentially sleeping right next to the door for all intents and purposes. 

Finally once you decide - PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! as tom said, it has to be almost muscle memory. When you can comfortably raise from a "ready" position and double tap into the center of Mass consistently at 10-15 ft, then you are ready to hit the road.  

One last thing, I have nothing against revolvers - but I think a semi-auto is far superior in a SD situation.  They are slower to fire accurately because of the double pull for every trigger shot, they have too limited a round capacity and they are slow to reload.  There is a reason every military and every police force in the world has moved away from revolvers. THey are fine weapons and in the hands of a super practiced wheel gun shooter - they can be just as fast and accurate.  But for the average mortal, no way!  

Good luck.

a related question if it's not out of bounds for me asking - why the sudden solo road trip in an RV?  Getting bored in retirement?  

Have you seen the Mossburg shockwave? Somehow they found their way through the Regis to get a legal 14" shotgun Barell. Apparently it's considered a firearm and not a shotgun. 

 

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12 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Have you seen the Mossburg shockwave? Somehow they found their way through the Regis to get a legal 14" shotgun Barell. Apparently it's considered a firearm and not a shotgun. 

 

Legally it is considered a pistol as it does not have a stock, just a pistol grip. If you put a stock on it which you could shoulder, then it would be considered a short barrelled rifle and you would need to have the STF tax stamp to be legal.

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PB

If you are seriously considering the scatter gun route.  Look at a .410.  Small, light kick but it has enough umph to protect you and yours.  Also puts smaller holes in the wall. 

Remington makes a good one as part of their 870 line.

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15 minutes ago, pbd said:

PB

If you are seriously considering the scatter gun route.  Look at a .410.  Small, light kick but it has enough umph to protect you and yours.  Also puts smaller holes in the wall. 

Remington makes a good one as part of their 870 line.

doesn't put smaller holes in anything, just less of them

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The Shockwave is cannot legally be sold in CA.  Only became legal in TX last week.

PB, if you buy a new pistol, consider buying several different brands of ammunition.  I wouldn't trust any new firearm without running a 100 rounds or so of each particular brand to see if it will feed and extract reliably.  Then mail order a case of what it likes.  Run several hundred more through it.

Oh, yeah.  Safety glasses are a must, too.

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This guy is in CA, anything he can buy here has to be on the CA approved list. That limits his selection quite a bit.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

If its not there you can't buy it without heroic measures. That said there are a bunch of revolvers and semi-autos CA approved.

I don't write the laws and most knowledgeable people see this approved list as a bad joke.

 

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No shit - just don't try to bring one - especially a handgun.

Expect an expensive bureaucratic nightmare if you do.

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seconded on the revolver recommendation, but if you're looking for a semi i think the walther p99 is unbeatable

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On 9/6/2017 at 8:55 AM, Caferacer59 said:

We should hijack this thread to point out that James McMurtry  is the greatest living songwriter not named "Bob Dylan" in america today.  There is a lot to choose from but complicated game is a master piece.  Anyone from the Chesapeake Bay should listed to the Carlisles Haul track 

By the way:  Roscoe tried to miss em, but he didn't quite......

FIFY

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On 9/7/2017 at 4:46 AM, LenP said:

Legally it is considered a pistol as it does not have a stock, just a pistol grip. If you put a stock on it which you could shoulder, then it would be considered a short barrelled rifle and you would need to have the STF tax stamp to be legal.

 

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Given that you were comfortable with the 1911, suggest you get back to it but you may have to verify that the magazines are currently legal in CA law (this is a very strange state we live in related to the 2nd Amendment).  For example, Glock 19 Gen 4 isn't legal-don't ask me why because I don't care.

Given that I was horrible with the 1911 back in the military; I elected to get a Henry Big Boy Carbine in .357 magnum/.38 special since I can hit what I aim at with it and it is sorta cool looking and not military looking.  It's short enough, light enough and packs a nice load.

I decided against any shotgun just because they are too heavy and in SD quickness is helpful.

Concur that a .38 revolver would also be a good choice.

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On 9/4/2017 at 11:12 PM, Timo42 said:

You can get a folding stock with pistol grip for either the Mossberg or the 870, I like and have an 870 with an 18" riot barrel, maybe a flashlight mounted on the foregrip. They aren't very accurate with the stock folded, but it would work better in a close environment. The SoCal chapter of the SA gun nut club has kind of died out, only Silent Bob and I are still in state as far as I know, but maybe we could set up another bangfest, I have some new toys  to try out now that racing season is almost over.

Hey Timo, yeah miss the SA Gun Blasts.  We're now in the Gunshine state, hunkering down away from that bitch Irma.  

PB, we did invite you to a couple of the Gun Blasts...;)

For your mission, I'm going to recommend TRAINING, and after that.... a Glock 19 3rd Gen in 9mm.  The munificent state of Cali still allows their sale. A rifle or shotgun will be too clumsy in a motorhome.   

Timo, say hi to SB for me.  And.... what new toys?

 

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Scary black rifle and M&P Shield, looking at a Howa M1500 chassis in 6.5 Creedmoor. All we have left is King of the Hill, then it's either shooting or bowling for the winter...and I don't look good in polyester.B)

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15 minutes ago, Timo42 said:

Scary black rifle and M&P Shield, looking at a Howa M1500 chassis in 6.5 Creedmoor. All we have left is King of the Hill, then it's either shooting or bowling for the winter...and I don't look good in polyester.B)

Ooooooh, nice.  I was able to parlay my Gander employment into a Savage AR-10 Long Ranger in 308 -- for half price.  Reach out - and @#$% something up. 

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3 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Hey Timo, yeah miss the SA Gun Blasts.  We're now in the Gunshine state, hunkering down away from that bitch Irma.  

PB, we did invite you to a couple of the Gun Blasts...;)

For your mission, I'm going to recommend TRAINING, and after that.... a Glock 19 3rd Gen in 9mm.  The munificent state of Cali still allows their sale. A rifle or shotgun will be too clumsy in a motorhome.   

Timo, say hi to SB for me.  And.... what new toys?

 

Stay safe!  No new toys for me.  Any $ go to the boat!

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Quote

I elected to get a Henry Big Boy Carbine in .357 magnum/.38 special

 

damn, that rifle is cute..

 

On 9/5/2017 at 3:59 PM, silent bob said:

Again, you don't shoot to Injure, you shoot to KILL!  If you don't have the right to kill, you don't have the right to shoot!  Once you have pulled the trigger, you keep pulling the trigger until the threat has stopped.  If you don't follow these rules, you end up as the dead one or the one in the back of the Police Car!  This is not Hollywood!  

No you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the threat, if the perp happens to die, C'est la vie...     never ever admit that you shot to kill, that'll get you in legal hot water..

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41 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

No you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the threat, if the perp happens to die, C'est la vie...     never ever admit that you shot to kill, that'll get you in legal hot water..

Yep

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What a lovely country you all live in. 

America is militarily the most aggressive country on the planet.

Is that why you all are like you are?

Or is your foreign policy a reflection of you as a people?

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Back to the question...for a RV trip..a can of wasp killer...I travel a lot for work in rural Oregon lots of great folks and some questionable... I have a cc permit and do carry a Ruger 380 but the wasp killer is legal and spays a high volume with good pressure and the intruder  will need and seek medical attention  when you are done with him... enjoy the trip my friend...

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33 minutes ago, By the lee said:

What a lovely country you all live in. 

America is militarily the most aggressive country on the planet.

Is that why you all are like you are?

Or is your foreign policy a reflection of you as a people?

Yes, it is a beautiful country.

I don't think USA is the most aggressive; depends on the politics of the times.  We certainly do go out of our way to appease first.  Didn't we pay off Iran to release hostages in the not too distant past?

Foreign policy is a reflection of we, the people--after all, it is our government and our foreign policy.  That's the sine qua non of our republic.  Unfortunately, we, the people, have been more divided in the past 50 years than we were in the previous 150 years.  A large part of what divides us is liberal and conservative media who celebrate extreme viewpoints. 

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3 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

damn, that rifle is cute

Yep, fun to shoot, too.  Definitely not military looking (unless you are in the 7th Cavalry from 1880).

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Yes, it is a beautiful country.

I don't think USA is the most aggressive; depends on the politics of the times.  We certainly do go out of our way to appease first.  Didn't we pay off Iran to release hostages in the not too distant past?

Foreign policy is a reflection of we, the people--after all, it is our government and our foreign policy.  That's the sine qua non of our republic.  Unfortunately, we, the people, have been more divided in the past 50 years than we were in the previous 150 years.  A large part of what divides us is liberal and conservative media who celebrate extreme viewpoints. 

Our foreign policy has been sadly regressive, and built on violent aggressive foreign  intervention during my entire 6 decades on the planet.  I don't agree with any of it.

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Glock .40 with spare mag. (Glock 35 Gen4)

Skip the revolvers, although they are great looking, but too hard to load when you really need it, even with a speed loader.

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4 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Yep, fun to shoot, too.  Definitely not military looking (unless you are in the 7th Cavalry from 1880).

Thought they used Trapdoor carbines downloaded w/50grs bp? 

Quote

Skip the revolvers, although they are great looking, but too hard to load when you really need it, even with a speed loader.

Jesus! He's just trying to scare/stop an intruder coming through the door of his R/V, he's not battling house-to-house urban warfare!

:wacko:

As a gun owner who plinks and occasionally bust clays this is what pisses me off about "gun culture" (if such a thing can be said to exist) escalate escalate escalate - I'm lookin' at you NRA. Crazy fuckers.

Keep up this arms race and it will be what finally lowers the boom on gun ownership in 'merica..

Quote

Our foreign policy has been sadly regressive, and built on violent aggressive foreign  intervention during my entire 6 decades on the planet.  I don't agree with any of it.

+1

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 10:38 AM, Zonker said:

If he gets that far North I have a 2nd gun vault that's only half full. Lots of room to store various tools.

 

WL

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4 hours ago, ovb said:

Back to the question...for a RV trip..a can of wasp killer...I travel a lot for work in rural Oregon lots of great folks and some questionable... I have a cc permit and do carry a Ruger 380 but the wasp killer is legal and spays a high volume with good pressure and the intruder  will need and seek medical attention  when you are done with him... enjoy the trip my friend...

I'd be inclined to back that up with a hand held boat horn at close range while he was rubbing dirt in his eyes!

 

WL

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When we were passing through Marina del Rey I sold a bunch of paper charts of Alaska to a LA based sailor. He wanted to know if he should take his 38 revolver to Alaska.

"Why?" I wanted to know.

"You know - self defense. And the bears"

I told him that the BC North Coast and Alaska was remarkably limited in numbers of armed intruders who would bother him. And if he shot a grizzly with a 38 revolver he would only irritate it.

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4 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Our foreign policy has been sadly regressive, and built on violent aggressive foreign  intervention during my entire 6 decades on the planet.  I don't agree with any of it.

One of the nice things about our republic is you have the freedom to find like minded individuals and work to boot them out of office if their implementation of your policy lacks your support.  As a country, at least we don't have the goal of imperialism. However, our policy is pointed toward keeping our homes safe from foreign aggressors.  Our policy failed 16 years ago today.  We've done a little better since.

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Not sure if you chose a firearm yet as I stopped reading after the first half of the page.

For what your looking for I would recommend a smaller firearm such as an LC9/380 revolver in an on the belt holster covered by a tshirt. A model without an external safety.  

Any compact act size like a G19 would likely be to big for you to be comfortable carrying around as a person  not used to carrying a firearm. Then you wouldn't end up carrying it. Also Inside the waistbands suck for outdoors if you walk more than 1/2 mile.

Dont get a firearm with a safety if your carrying it, unless you train repeatedly with a safety at a pro-place like the sig sauer academy. Any situation when you will be required to use it your hands turn into blocks your brain will be incapable of thinking no matter how attuned to stress you are, and you will never take the safety off unless its muscle memory. A good holster will be your safety, if it's not in the holster it's unloaded or down range.

So my recommendation for camping/hiking is a smaller sub compact size. A decent holster I prefer leather pancake styles with a thumbreak for outdoor concealment. And of course https://www.thegunbox.com/pages/echo for storage. My battery in mine has gone 8 months on one charge and you can check on your phone.

But it if you want a range/carry gun, I'd lean towards a sig p320 as they come with night sights and sig quality. Although If I didn't have a M&P for carry I would definatly buy the CZ10c. 

 

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12 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Yep, fun to shoot, too.  Definitely not military looking (unless you are in the 7th Cavalry from 1880).

Why the fear and angst about it being "military looking"???  Did the people in 1880 look at it and cower and piss their pants and go "oooh that's looks too military". 

Meanehile in 2069, the gun grabbers will look at the AR-15 and think "oooh, that's a cute rifle" in comparison to the current phased plasma rifles in the 40-watt range. 

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Just what you see, pal.

 

oytT9WY.jpg

 

Not that there will be any gun grabbers left.

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why the fear and angst about it being "military looking"???  Did the people in 1880 look at it and cower and piss their pants and go "oooh that's looks too military". 

Meanehile in 2069, the gun grabbers will look at the AR-15 and think "oooh, that's a cute rifle" in comparison to the current phased plasma rifles in the 40-watt range. 

You could be right about 2069.  In any case, I dislike military looking firearms for the sole reason that police officers will believe I am a sports shooter (which is accurate) with this carbine and not an alt-right wacko.

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21 hours ago, By the lee said:

What a lovely country you all live in. 

America is militarily the most aggressive country on the planet.

Is that why you all are like you are?

Or is your foreign policy a reflection of you as a people?

personally, I would prefer we withdraw all our forces and quit being the world police , cut the military budget down to 1/3, and let all the corporations pay for their own protection ( which is basically what we're doing) and let europe fight all it's own battles as it did so well in ww1&2   but this is all PA so take it there..

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20 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Yep, fun to shoot, too.  Definitely not military looking (unless you are in the 7th Cavalry from 1880).

 

advantage of one calibre ove the others..  I could see if carrying a pistol to match up cartridges, any other reason for one over another?

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2 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

advantage of one calibre ove the others..  I could see if carrying a pistol to match up cartridges, any other reason for one over another?

If you are a hunter, that'd be the only other reason to pick one over the other. 

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17 hours ago, MultiThom said:

One of the nice things about our republic is you have the freedom to find like minded individuals and work to boot them out of office if their implementation of your policy lacks your support.  

Doesn't make any difference. Unless you own a yacht.

 

Quote

As a country, at least we don't have the goal of imperialism.

Good god.

Quote

personally, I would prefer we withdraw all our forces and quit being the world police , cut the military budget down to 1/3, and let all the corporations pay for their own protection ( which is basically what we're doing) and let europe fight all it's own battles as it did so well in ww1&2

+1 :P

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1 hour ago, By the lee said:

Doesn't make any difference. Unless you own a yacht.

+1 :P

See, if you refuse to do anything but bitch and moan, the country will go directions you don't want.  Can't be lazy and expect things to go your way.   Granted, it is MUCH easier to just bitch and moan.

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18 hours ago, MultiThom said:

You could be right about 2069.  In any case, I dislike military looking firearms for the sole reason that police officers will believe I am a sports shooter (which is accurate) with this carbine and not an alt-right wacko.

So anyone who owns a military looking firearm is by your definition an "alt-right whacko"??

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So anyone who owns a military looking firearm is by your definition an "alt-right whacko"??

dammit I knew people were looking at me weird for same reason. 

I must be a whacko

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