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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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Maybe it's Nancy's tatas. He's under their spell.....  

Ryan and McConnell not happy. Trump cut them off on the knees on the debt, Harvey relief, and the budget. And is about to do the same with the Dream Act. Who'da thunk that Trump would get his (only) legislative wins from Dem votes?

 

Updated at 2:20 p.m. ET 

Democratic congressional leaders announced Wednesday that they had reached a deal with President Trump in an Oval Office meeting to pass hurricane relief funding this week, along with measures to push off pressing fiscal deadlines to December — over the apparent objections of Republican leaders. 

"In the meeting, the President and Congressional leadership agreed to pass aid for Harvey, an extension of the debt limit, and a continuing resolution both to December 15, all together," House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said in a joint statement. "Both sides have every intention of avoiding default in December and look forward to working together on the many issues before us." 

The agreement includes bundling relief for Hurricane Harvey with a three-month continuing resolution that would keep the government funded through Dec. 15, in addition to a three-month fix to raise the debt limit to be passed this week. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said he will be adding those measures to the hurricane relief measure and support it on the floor. 

 

An aide briefed on the meeting said that Republican leaders originally proposed an 18-month hike, which would extend past the 2018 midterms, then offered a six-month extension before the president agreed to the Democrats' desired three-month extension.

It's a major development given the pressing list of tasks Congress had to take on over the next month and the fact that Trump sided with Democrats' desires over those of Republicans.

House Speaker Paul Ryan had criticized the proposal from Pelosi and Schumer on a three-month debt ceiling hike earlier on Wednesday as "playing politics" with the debt ceiling. 

Trump described the meeting to reporters on Air Force One: "We had a very good meeting with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. We agreed to a three-month extension on debt ceiling, which they consider to be sacred — very important — always we'll agree on debt ceiling automatically because of the importance of it." Those comments came while the president was en route to a tax reform event in North Dakota, and he did not mention his own party's congressional leaders. 

Trump also hinted there could be a deal reached to protect so-called "DREAMers," after his administration announced the end to the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program which puts in limbo the fate of 800,000 young people who came to the U.S. illegally as children and now could face the possibility of deportation.

"We discussed that also today, and Chuck and Nancy would like to see something happen, and so do I," Trump said. "And I said if we can get something to happen, we're going to sign it and we're going to make a lot of happy people." 

Pelosi and Schumer said in their statement that "we also made it clear that we strongly believe the DREAM Act must come to the floor and pass as soon as possible and we will not rest until we get this done."

During the Obama administration, Congress failed to pass the DREAM Act, which would have provided protections to immigrants who came here illegally as children.

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Hmm, Maybe Sol's warning that the only thing that could hurt Trump was switching to D - may be closer to reality than we'd think:

 

Trump was in "apprentice mode" when he sided with Democrats, GOP official says

From CNN’s Jeff Zeleny and Dana Bash:

The deal President Trump cut with Democratic leaders today is one of the most fascinating – and mysterious – moves he’s made with Congress since taking office.

Three Republican officials — one close to the White House, two close to Congressional leaders — say they were stunned by the president’s abrupt decision to align with Democrats on the three-month deal. They had no heads up or warning this would happen today, the officials said.

“The president was in deal-cutting mode,” a Republican familiar with the meeting said. “He was sick of this fight.”

Another senior GOP official viewed Trump as in "apprentice mode."

Leader McConnell and Speaker Ryan were “blindsided by this,” a Republican official said, a point made clear by Ryan’s own words a few hours earlier, deriding the plan as “ridiculous.” 

One thing is clear: This is new territory for Trump, signaling he will work with Democrats, at least on this. It even took Democrats by surprise, one senior Democratic Congressional aide said.

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Can you imagine if the Democrats actually have to start praising Trump for his 'leadership'.  

BWA HA HA HA HA!  Politics is strange bedfellows.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Can you imagine if the Democrats actually have to start praising Trump for his 'leadership'.  

BWA HA HA HA HA!  Politics is strange bedfellows.

 

 

I can almost guarantee what Mark Levin is going to say - it'll be something like:

 

Why do republicans always let the democrats win?!?  We've got the White House, the Congress, The Supremes, and Still!!!! Nancy "big tits" Pelosi wins!  And don't get me started on Chuckie!

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I'm sure McConnell is retracting his head into his shell as we speak :)

I'm just a fan of Irony. Bottom line is if this gets them to work together, so be it.  They've kicked the can down the road so many times I'm not sure if any politician actually remembers what a 'decision' looks like.

 

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Ryan and Mitch have been telling Trump shit can't be done and he showed them that shit can be done if you have the balls to work with Democrats. Fact is the Speaker of the House should not view his job as that of championing the wishes of the majority party above all. Mitch and Ryan have been so accustomed to that they may not be able to see it any other way.

  The question now is do they have the balls to go to war on Trump? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it and neither has Trump. He has bet that the "base" will continue to support him even if he works with Democrats. He may be right too. He has bet on the spinelessness of Ryan and Mitch. Not a bad bet to make, actually, but he is betting "the house" on it.

Trump loves to play "Chicken", that game where two drivers head at each other to see who will flinch first. There is always "another day" in real estate business though...

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8 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Ryan and Mitch have been telling Trump shit can't be done and he showed them that shit can be done if you have the balls to work with Democrats. The question now is do they have the balls to go to war on Trump? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it and neither has Trump. 

I truly don't think that the republican leadership particularly likes the 'freedom caucus' and would secretly delight in a way to circumvent them.  I think what they really want is a group of 20 or so 'conservative leaning democrats' to buck the Democrat leadership so they can eject the Freedom Caucus and cut whatever deals they want to cut and save face but that's not going to happen.  

The problem, of course, is that the freedom caucus could try and force Ryan out but I don't actually think that helps their cause. 

 

'.  

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6 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I truly don't think that the republican leadership particularly likes the 'freedom caucus' and would secretly delight in a way to circumvent them.  The problem, of course, is that they could try and force Ryan out but I don't actually think that helps their cause. 

 

'.  

I edited the post you replied to, adding what I think is behind it.

 

  Essentially Trump is betting that if the "base" has to choose between him and Ryan/Mitch, they will go with him, even if he works with Democrats, and he is betting Ryan/Mitch don't collectively have the balls to go to war with him.   

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7 minutes ago, Mark K said:

 Essentially Trump is betting that if the "base" has to choose between him and Ryan/Mitch, they will go with him, even if he works with Democrats, and he is betting Ryan/Mitch don't collectively have the balls to go to war with him.   

I don't think it's that planned. Nothing Trump does is. This is the standard Trump "do what people don't expect to disorient everyone" move, mostly to focus more attention on who really matters - Trump.

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1 minute ago, Mark K said:

I edited the post you relied to, adding what I think is behind it. Essentially Trump is betting that if the "base" has to choose between him and Ryan/Mitch, they will go with him, even if he works with Democrats, and he is betting Ryan/Mitch don't collectively have a the balls to go to war with him.   

I agree.

There was a comment made that Trump was 'tired of hearing about it' and basically cut a deal so he didn't have to listen to it.  Although it plays into a narrative and has no corroborating evidence, I could totally see that being the impetus for this.

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Smoke and mirrors. Trump's playing both sides against each other, and if they (both sides) are too stupid to see such an obvious ploy, then we deserve what they get.

 Trump is not a fucking genius. He's not a master deal maker. He's a fucking Coney Island huckster, making clams off the shills!

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1 hour ago, Mrleft8 said:

Smoke and mirrors. Trump's playing both sides against each other, and if they (both sides) are too stupid to see such an obvious ploy, then we deserve what they get.

 Trump is not a fucking genius. He's not a master deal maker. He's a fucking Coney Island huckster, making clams off the shills!

He's a bit more than a carnival barker though. Here's Bill Polk's analysis in the context of predicting him on the Korea issue, using his business history as a model. Well worth a read:  

  

 On November 12, 2015 Mr. Trump declared, “I love war.” In fact, as the record showed, he went to considerable trouble to deny himself the pleasures of going into harm’s way during the Vietnam war.  And, now, should he decide to take America to war, he would not put his own life in danger.  In my time in Washington, such “war-lovers from afar“ were often referred to as “chicken-hawks.”  They loved to talk about war and to urge others to get into it, but, like Mr. Trump, they never volunteered for action and never, in their pronouncements, dwelt on the horror of actual combat.  For them war was another TV episode where the good guys got a bit dusted up but always won.

Mr. Trump presumably meant by the word “war” something very different from real war since he explained, “…I’m good at war.  I’ve had a lot of wars on my own.  I’m really good at war.  I love war, in a certain way but only when we win.” 

For Mr. Trump, as his actions show, every business deal was a sort of war.  He conducted it as what military strategists call a zero-sum game:  the winner took all and the loser got nothing.  There was little or no negotiation.  “Attack” was the operational mode and his opponent would be driven to defeat by the threat of financial ruin. This was the “certain way” he called his many “wars on my own.”  The record bears him out.  He overwhelmed rivals with thousands of law suits against which they had to defend themselves at ruinous cost, convinced them that if they did not acquiesce he would destroy them and was unrelenting.  He was very good at it.  He made his fortune in this form of “war.”  He seems to believe that he can apply his experience in business to international affairs.  But nations are not so likely to go out of business as the rivals he met in real estate transactions and some of them are armed with nuclear weapons.

*          On several occasions, Mr. Trump set out his understanding of the role of nuclear weapons.  In 2015, as a candidate, he was quoted as saying, “For me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me.”  But, I find no evidence that he realizes what “devastation” really means.  It is one thing to drive a business rival into bankruptcy and quite another to oversee the burning to death of hundreds of thousands or millions of people and relegating still more to homelessness and starvation in a ruined environment.  One supposes that he is aware of what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but they are misleading.  Modern nuclear weapons are far more powerful: a one megaton weapon, for example, is about 50 times as powerful as the weapon that destroyed Hiroshima.  Those of us who dealt with the threat of nuclear war in the Cuban Missile Crisis were aware of the effects of such “standard” weapons.  I see no evidence that Mr. Trump knows what a nuclear war would actually do.  Indeed,  he is quoted as saying, “what is the point of having nuclear weapons if  you don’t use them?”  He will find advisers who will tell him that they must be used.  The ghost of General Lemnitzer hovers near the oval office.

    *            Mr. Trump prides himself on unpredictability.  Unpredictability was his business strategy.  As he told an interviewer from CBS on January 1, 2016, “You want to be unpredictable…And somebody recently said — I made a great business deal. And the person on the other side was interviewed by a newspaper. And how did Trump do this? And they said, he`s so unpredictable. And I didn`t know if he meant it positively or negative. It turned out he meant it positively.”  Another time he said on TV “I want to be unpredictable.”   The  record shows his use of the ploy, but perhaps it is more than just a ploy.  Perhaps it is a manifestation of his personality, so I want to probe its meaning.

            Years ago, I was informed that the CIA maintained a staff of psychoanalysts to profile foreign leaders.  If the office still exists, the doctors presumably do not practice their arts on American officials, and certainly not on the president.  As part of their professional code, psychiatrists are not supposed to diagnose anyone they have not personally examined,  and I doubt that anyone will be able to get Mr. Trump to lie down on the coach.  But, as psychiatrists Peter Kramer and Sally Satel have pointed out, Mr. Trump has shown himself to be “impulsive, erratic, belligerent and vengeful” so “many experts believe that Mr. Trump has a narcissistic personality disorder.”  Reacting to having such a leader with his hand on the nuclear trigger, Maryland Congressman Jamie Raskin introduced a bill to establish an “Oversight Commission on Presidential Capacity” (H.R. 1987) as authorized by the 25th Amendment to the Constitution.  It has not been acted upon and it allows the president latitude to “pardon” himself. 

Since his actions and the efforts of others do not offer much insight,  I suggest his actions lend themselves to a perhaps instructive analogy, the game of “chicken.”

            *          In chicken two drivers aim their speeding cars at one another.  The one who flinches, turns aside, or (as Secretary of State Dean Rusk put it to me during the Cuban Missile Crisis)  “blinks,” is the chicken.  The winner is the driver who convinces the loser that he is irrational, deaf to all appeals and blind to danger. He cannot get out of the way.  In Mr. Trump’s strategy of war, the irrational man wins because he cannot be reached with any warning, argument or advice.  Knowing this, the other man loses precisely because he is rational.

Three things follow from this analogy.  They seem evident in Mr. Trump’s approach to the issues or war or peace:

  • the first is that irrationality, ironically becomes a rational strategy. If one can convince his opponents that he is cannot be reasoned with,  he wins.  This has worked for years in business for Mr. Trump. I see no reason to believe that he will give it up.
  • The second is that the driver of the car does not need information or advice. They are irrelevant or even detrimental to his strategy.  So, we see that Mr. Trump pays no attention to the professionals who man the 16 agencies set up by previous administrations to provide information or intelligence.  One example where his professed plan of action flies in the face of the intelligence appreciation is Iran.  As the former deputy director of the CIA David Cohen found “disconcerting,” Mr. Trump has repeated said that Iran was not abiding by the terms of the Iranian-American deal on nuclear weapons before “finding the intelligence to back it up.”  But that is inherent in Trump’s strategy of confrontation.  He surely knows – but does not care -- that the entire intelligence community holds that Iran has abided by the deal. In Trump’s mind, intelligence analysts are “back seat drivers” and should keep quiet.  By questioning his blindness, they suggest to the driver of the other car that Mr. Trump might swerve aside.  Thus, they threaten to destroy the irrationality that is the essence of his strategy.
  • And, third, what Mr. Trump, the “driver” of the car in the “chicken” confrontation, does need is absolute loyalty. Those who sit beside him must never question how he is driving.  Any hint of their trying to dissuade his actions threatens to destroy his strategy.   So, as we see almost daily, at any hint of disagreement, he pushes his copilots out of the car.  Indeed, at least one hardly even got into the “car” before being pushed out the door.

            His actions both in business and in the presidency illustrate these points.  He takes pride in irrational actions, shifting from one position to another, even its opposite, on what appears to be a whim.  He disdains advice even from the intelligence services and also from presumably loyal members of his inner circle.  What he demands is absolute loyalty.

            Finally, it seems to me that Mr. Trump has understood, far better than most of us, that the public likes to be entertained.  It is bored by consistency.  It doesn’t pay much attention to explanation or analysis. And as the financially successful record of the TV industry and the sorry record of the book publishing industry show,  the public wants entertainment.  Mr. Trump caters to popular taste: every episode is new; every remark, simple; every threat, dramatic; and, perhaps most powerfully of all, he echoes angers, disappointments, hurts, desires that many of his supporters also feel.

This mode of operation worked for Trump in the business world.  His image of ruthlessness, determination and even irrationality caused some of the biggest potential rivals to get out of his way and many others to accept his terms rather than risk a collision.  It is not Trump or his mode of operation that has changed but the context in which he operates.  Citibank with which he clashed did not have nuclear weapons; North Korea does. 

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Trump is not happy with the republicans.  This is just a spoiled brat making nice with the enemy just to piss off his friends.  He's such a child.  Dems should play him though.  Lie to him.  Tell him they will help him destroy Obamacare and fund the wall.  Then like Lucy with the football....

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"............Stupid woman! You knew I was a snake when you took me in!"

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4 hours ago, cmilliken said:

I truly don't think that the republican leadership particularly likes the 'freedom caucus' and would secretly delight in a way to circumvent them.  I think what they really want is a group of 20 or so 'conservative leaning democrats' to buck the Democrat leadership so they can eject the Freedom Caucus and cut whatever deals they want to cut and save face but that's not going to happen.  

The problem, of course, is that the freedom caucus could try and force Ryan out but I don't actually think that helps their cause. 

 

'.  

What you're looking for is the "blue dogs"......

I think,

No affiliation.....http://bluedogdems.com

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That's what is supposed to happen.  Work across the aisle, compromise, get stuff done.  Good on the President for making it happen and getting it done without holding the country and our debt rating hostage.  

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3 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

That's what is supposed to happen.  Work across the aisle, compromise, get stuff done.  Good on the President for making it happen and getting it done without holding the country and our debt rating hostage.  

It ain't done until the fat man sings.

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Just now, Sol Rosenberg said:

True.  We need to see it happen to be sure, like anything EVERYTHING he talks about.  

FTFY

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Making deals with the Russians we can forgive, but Democrats! Unforgivable.

 

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Shouldn't this thread have at least one old Tweet about how bad it is to raise the debt ceiling?

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-debt-ceiling-schumer-pelosi-deal-2017-9

 

"According to Damian Paletta and Ashley Parker at The Washington Post, one person familiar with the meeting called said Schumer and Trump have a "gentleman's agreement" to work on a deal to get rid of the debt ceiling."

 

I don't think it's possible anymore to have a meaningful conversation about the deficit.  Any sense of restraint is gone and medical costs / entitlements are simply going to overwhelm any discretionary funding anyway so it becomes a sham vote.  We've crossed the rubicon.  It's math and demographics at this point and unless we're willing to accept the immigration solution, we're left with 'accounting games'.

Congress critters can't say no and the Fed can't stop printing so why pretend?

Personally, I think it is a good reminder and they SHOULD keep voting on it every so often but the Treasury should get rid of all these 'emergency measures' which are now 'normal operating procedures'.  It's an annual colonoscopy - deal with it.

 

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A brilliant political move. This is being framed as Trump collaborating with Democrats the big losers being the feckless Republican congressional leadership with their 8% approval. It's also a case of Democrats collaborating with Trump.  The images of the smiling Trump, Pelosi and Schumer are poison to the "Resistance" and their impeachment agenda. The big winner politically...Donald Trump.

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You are projecting, Dog. Democrats don't have the same response as the GOP to compromise solutions and the unsightly process of democracy. As a Republican, if you compromise you end up a RINO. Democrats just accept political and governing realities and move on.org  Dems are in favor of responsible governance.

Face it, Houston's bailout was needed, as was raising the debt ceiling. Although he's a turd, striking a deal with Drumpf was a way to keep the economy chugging while we hope responsible partners in leadership emerge from the GOP Congress. Dems have been taking responsibility for the economy since they continued Bush's bailout plans. Unfortunately, the military industrial complex and the spiraling costs of healthcare, a reality only temporarily slowed by a hamstrung Obamacare, has continued to batter our nation with bills. These environmental disasters are our existential threats, ISIS and NK are sideshows which enable/encourage military spending. Healthcare is the elephant in the room.

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59 minutes ago, Dog said:

A brilliant political move. This is being framed as Trump collaborating with Democrats the big losers being the feckless Republican congressional leadership with their 8% approval. It's also a case of Democrats collaborating with Trump.  The images of the smiling Trump, Pelosi and Schumer are poison to the "Resistance" and their impeachment agenda. The big winner politically...Donald Trump.

This will only erode any tacit support the Chump has enjoyed with the right wing.  He will gain zero support from the left.  Net lose.  His problem is he will now be seen from the right as what the left has seen all along.  Unreliable.  Impeachment is more likely now then ever.

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

A brilliant political move. This is being framed as Trump collaborating with Democrats the big losers being the feckless Republican congressional leadership with their 8% approval. It's also a case of Democrats collaborating with Trump.  The images of the smiling Trump, Pelosi and Schumer are poison to the "Resistance" and their impeachment agenda. The big winner politically...Donald Trump.

Geez Dog, go easy on the President.  Do you always have to be so critical about everything he does?  

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Look! The doggie's dreaming..... Isn't it cute how his little feet twitch? And those little yips....He thinks he's chasing a rabbit! (Or Caribou Barbie)

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Geez Dog, go easy on the President.  Do you always have to be so critical about everything he does?  

I just think demonstrating a willingness to put partisanship aside and to reach across the aisle will play to his advantage. Others obviously think of cooperation as a negative.

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3 hours ago, Dog said:

I just think demonstrating a willingness to put partisanship aside and to reach across the aisle will play to his advantage. Others obviously think of cooperation as a negative.

You mean, like the tea party, planning the Ryan coup?

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2 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You mean all of the actual conservatives concerned with US spending and the deficit?

I thought you knew, unicorns don't exist.

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It may be that when nobody is looking Ryan and Mitch are saying "YES!!" to this.   

 Trump provides a shield for the moderate R's to buck the Teahadi "Freedom" caucus, who have ruled because they can get the tiny proportion of the population who vote in R primaries to do just about anything, and the traditional tool to fight radical factions, aligning with the other party to check them, has for whatever reason not been available...and now it is....

 One of the perils of conditioning them to support Donald Trump no matter what he does has just been delivered,  and in the manner of a hot kiss on the end of a wet fist.

 

 

 

  

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21 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You mean all of the actual conservatives concerned with US spending and the deficit?

It's amusing to see the libs reaction to a Republican who does reach across the aisle. For all their talk you would have thought they would be applauding but their own partisanship prevents that and talk is cheap.

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Just now, Dog said:

It's amusing to see the libs reaction to a Republican who does reach across the aisle. For all their talk you would have thought they would be applauding but their own partisanship prevents that and talk is cheap.

If you haven't noticed, the libs aren't actually criticizing your messiah for this, but are skeptical about him.  Its you conservatives that have your hair on fire for the reach around.

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5 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

If you haven't noticed, the libs aren't actually criticizing your messiah for this, but are skeptical about him.  Its you conservatives that have your hair on fire for the reach around.

So do you applaud Trump for this?

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1 minute ago, Spatial Ed said:

Anything that gets conservatives upset is a positive.

Ha ha...I didn't think so.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

So do you applaud Trump for this?

debt limit extension and harvey funding? yep.  but not really applause.

 

Sucker punching Ryan and McConnell? Definitely applause worthy.

 

90 Republitards who voted against harvey funding? dicks of the first order.

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2 minutes ago, Dog said:

Ha ha...I didn't think so.

Tweeting out Nancy's request to calm down the Dreamers was a total cuck move.

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3 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

debt limit extension and harvey funding? yep.  but not really applause.

 

Sucker punching Ryan and McConnell? Definitely applause worthy.

 

90 Republitards who voted against harvey funding? dicks of the first order.

How about that....Raz is a Trumpette...

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15 minutes ago, Dog said:

How about that....Raz is a Trumpette...

If Trump moves to the center? I'll support the policies. I still think he's an abhorrent individual and an embarrassment. I'm highly concerned about how he handles most things, and find his Twitter obsession obscene.

But I'll take a little win when it's available. 

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6 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

If Trump moves to the center? I'll support the policies. I still think he's an abhorrent individual and an embarrassment. I'm highly concerned about how he handles most things, and find his Twitter obsession obscene.

But I'll take a little win when it's available. 

He would need to abandon the Wall, abandon Repeal, fund the EPA, replace his entire cabinet to move to the center.

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1 minute ago, Spatial Ed said:

He would need to abandon the Wall, abandon Repeal, fund the EPA, replace his entire cabinet to move to the center.

those would be a good start....

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43 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

If Trump moves to the center? I'll support the policies. I still think he's an abhorrent individual and an embarrassment. I'm highly concerned about how he handles most things, and find his Twitter obsession obscene.

But I'll take a little win when it's available. 

Well that's the thing, Trump is repugnant but he's the most centrist president since Clinton. I don't care much for the wall but illegal immigration needs to be stopped one way or the other. There's no point in talking about reforming something you don't control. As for Obamacare, if it's not repealed it will collapse.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

Well that's the thing, Trump is repugnant but he's the most centrist president since Clinton. I don't care much for the wall but illegal immigration needs to be stopped one way or the other. There's no point in talking about reforming something you don't control. As for Obamacare, if it's not repealed it will collapse.

The wall is an expensive nothing burger. Illegals come over the border on many ways. 

Obamacare collapse. That's funny.

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4 minutes ago, Dog said:

Well that's the thing, Trump is repugnant but he's the most centrist president since Clinton. 

Trump is right or left of Bush?

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7 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Trump is right or left of Bush?

Yes..... I wouldn't say that Trump is Centrist at all - as you can't balance a far right position with a far left position, and end up with centrist. You end up with an Authoritarian Populist. Authoritarian Populists aren't centrists. Think Mussolini...  

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Trump is repugnant but he's the most centrist president since Clinton.

Here's how I rank political leanings of presidents from Clinton on....

Left                              Right  

Obama Clinton Bush Trump

 

What has Trump done, said or promised that puts him left of Bush?  

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Just now, Spatial Ed said:

Here's how I rank political leanings of presidents from Clinton on....

Left                              Right  

Obama Clinton Bush Trump

 

What has Trump done, said or promised that puts him left of Bush?  

I don't think you can do that.

taxes, civil not-rights, courts; right of all

public works spending, tariffs, withdrawal from international markets? Left of all

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Lets look at individual issues and how he falls left/right/center

War - Trump loves war (right)

Foreign entanglements - Afganistan redo (right)

Taxes - Cut cut cut (right)

Healthcare - Repeal, privatize (right)

Immigration - Kick out brown people (right)

Religion - give Christians everything they want (right)

Muslims - keep them out (right)

Environment - Cut, repeal regs (right)

Gays - kick the trannies out (right)

Debt - well he just kicked the can (center)

Disaster aid - he just agreed with the dems and didn't demand cuts (center)

Ivanka - I think we all can agree she's hot (center)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Lets look at individual issues and how he falls left/right/center

War - Trump loves war (right)

Foreign entanglements - Afganistan redo (right)

Taxes - Cut cut cut (right)

Healthcare - Repeal, privatize (right)

Immigration - Kick out brown people (right)

Religion - give Christians everything they want (right)

Muslims - keep them out (right)

Environment - Cut, repeal regs (right)

Gays - kick the trannies out (right)

Debt - well he just kicked the can (center)

Disaster aid - he just agreed with the dems and didn't demand cuts (center)

Ivanka - I think we all can agree she's hot (center)

 

 

Doesn't matter. He talked to the lefties and made a deal. (Mega Left)

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14 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Lets look at individual issues and how he falls left/right/center

War - Trump loves war (right)

Foreign entanglements - Afganistan redo (right)

3

Yep seems to be the only thing you neoliberals and neocons have in common. Thanks, Obama!  

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14 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Lets look at individual issues and how he falls left/right/center

War - Trump loves war (right) No more than Obama

Foreign entanglements - Afganistan redo (right) Obama supported the Afghan war

Taxes - Cut cut cut (right) True 

Healthcare - Repeal, privatize (right) True

Immigration - Kick out brown people (right) Leftist bullshit

Religion - give Christians everything they want (right) Leftist bullshit

Muslims - keep them out (right) Leftist bullshit

Environment - Cut, repeal regs (right) true

Gays - kick the trannies out (right) Leftist bullshit

Debt - well he just kicked the can (center) Left

Disaster aid - he just agreed with the dems and didn't demand cuts (center) true

Ivanka - I think we all can agree she's hot (center) True

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Dog said:

Well that's the thing, Trump is repugnant but he's the most centrist president since Clinton. I don't care much for the wall but illegal immigration needs to be stopped one way or the other. There's no point in talking about reforming something you don't control. As for Obamacare, if it's not repealed it will collapse.

You have a rather warped view of the political spectrum. A person who defends Nazis and the KKK is not a "centrist."

Oh and "collapsing" is your word for "seven years of hard legislative work on the state and federal level to undercut"? I just want to make sure, so this can go in the new dictionaries.

-DSK

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

You have a rather warped view of the political spectrum. A person who defends Nazis and the KKK is not a "centrist."

Oh and "collapsing" is your word for "seven years of hard legislative work on the state and federal level to undercut"? I just want to make sure, so this can go in the new dictionaries.

-DSK

Cite his defense of Nazis and KKK.

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Just now, Spatial Ed said:

Tell us why you think Trump is a centrist.

I didn't say he was centrist, I put him center right.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

Cite his defense of Nazis and KKK.

Trump called them "really fine people," what does your new rightie dictionary say that means?

1 minute ago, Spatial Ed said:
29 minutes ago, Dog said:

 

Tell us why you think Trump is a centrist.

Because it sounds better?

-DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Trump called them "really fine people," what does your new rightie dictionary say that means?

Because it sounds better?

-DSK

He said the same about leftist domestic terrorists. Yes it was stupid. He says stupid things.

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2 minutes ago, Dog said:

I didn't say he was centrist, I put him center right.

No, you said he was the most centrist prez since carter.  That puts him to the left of Bush.  Care to explain that?

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3 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

No, you said he was the most centrist prez since carter.  That puts him to the left of Bush.  Care to explain that?

Yes, I think he is left of Bush and right of center. 

And it was Clinton not Carter.

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

Yes, I think he is left of Bush and right of center. 

Examples please, what issues is he left of bush.

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Just now, Spatial Ed said:

Examples please, what issues is he left of bush.

Primarily foreign affairs. I see him as less hawkish and less interventionist than Bush. Domestically they are similar.

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10 minutes ago, Dog said:

Primarily foreign affairs. I see him as less hawkish and less interventionist than Bush. Domestically they are similar.

So the saber rattling against NK and the destruction of relationships with allies is less hawkish?  He threatened to send troops to Mexico.   As for less interventionist, how is that demonstrated with his Afghan and Syria policy?

8 minutes ago, Dog said:

Do you approve of his recent collaboration with the Democrats?

Yes, but that doesn't make him left of Bush.

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18 hours ago, Dog said:

So do you applaud Trump for this?

It appears you see the only two options are "Criticize" and "Applaud".

Is it possible to be cautious in our optimism, and not have to ask you to loan us some red pom-poms?

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4 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

It appears you see the only two options are "Criticize" and "Applaud".

Is it possible to be cautious in our optimism, and not have to ask you to loan us some red pom-poms?

Now if you would only apply that standard to me.

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34 minutes ago, Dog said:

He said the same about leftist domestic terrorists. Yes it was stupid. He says stupid things.

Sorry, that doesn't make him "centrist." Saying stupid things, and not realizing it.... or worse, angrily insisting that he never said it.... makes him stupid. He is still a hate-mongering right-winger

 

Just now, Spatial Ed said:

If Trump sides with the democRats 50% of the time, I will think he's a centrist.

It will also get him impeached, bigly.

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Sorry, that doesn't make him "centrist." Saying stupid things, and not realizing it.... or worse, angrily insisting that he never said it.... makes him stupid. He is still a hate-mongering right-winger

 

It will also get him impeached, bigly.

Do you have comprehension issues. How are we supposed to have a conversation if you can't understand what is written? I never said he was a centrist.

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1 minute ago, Spatial Ed said:

Lets look at his cabinet.  A centrist would staff it with members from both political leanings. 

One more time...I did not say he was a centrist.

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Just now, Dog said:

One more time...I did not say he was a centrist.

Yes you did.  You said he was the most centrist since Clinton.  Why do you deny that?

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Just now, Spatial Ed said:

Yes you did.  You said he was the most centrist since Clinton.  Why do you deny that?

Was Clinton a centrist, did Clinton staff his cabinet with members from both sides?

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18 minutes ago, Dog said:

Was Clinton a centrist, did Clinton staff his cabinet with members from both sides?

Yes and yes.  What has Trump done, said or tweeted that makes him even being considered a centrist.

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You're trying to argue where Trump is on the political spectrum? Trump is political white noise. He's whatever he needs to be at any given moment. He has no vision or ideology that extends past his nose. Trying to label him using conventional political terms, other than tyrant, is fruitless.

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4 minutes ago, bhyde said:

You're trying to argue where Trump is on the political spectrum? Trump is political white noise. He's whatever he needs to be at any given moment. He has no vision or ideology that extends past his nose bank balance.Trying to label him using conventional political terms, other than tyrant, is fruitless.

Just trying to help

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25 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Just trying to help

spot on.

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3 hours ago, Dog said:

Now if you would only apply that standard to me.

You continued defense of President Trump and virtually everything he does/says, while taking great pains to assure us you do not support him, makes it rather silly to do that.

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59 minutes ago, bhyde said:

You're trying to argue where Trump is on the political spectrum? Trump is political white noise. He's whatever he needs to be at any given moment. He has no vision or ideology that extends past his nose. Trying to label him using conventional political terms, other than tyrant, is fruitless.

I think I get why Dog feels President Trump is centrist.  Because President Trump has taken both sides of just about every major issue.

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

You're trying to argue where Trump is on the political spectrum? Trump is political white noise. He's whatever he needs to be at any given moment. He has no vision or ideology that extends past his nose. Trying to label him using conventional political terms, other than tyrant, is fruitless.

"Political white noise" is a pretty good description, but IMHO Trump is just a salesman. He mirrors whatever the group around him thinks, he seeks status and approval by hating whatever you hate, only he hates it a lot more. Presumably, he has picked his companions by his own free will, and since he hangs around with / seeks the approval of, the Nazis and the KKKers and the hard-core reich-wingers who -really- hate libby-rulls and people with a different skin color than themselves, those are the values he blabbers about the most. His family history fits that picture, too.

Tyrant? Too much work. Trump is too lazy to be a dictator. But the people around him can be pretty damn dangerous to the country.

-DSK

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