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Australians surrender 26,000 firearms

163 posts in this topic

Australians surrender 26,000 firearms as part of the national gun amnesty

September 8, 2017 2:57pm

“There’s guns that’ve been handed in that would’ve been used during World War II, guns from the 1850s,” Justice Minister Michael Keenan said.

“Among the more unusual firearms handed in under the amnesty have been a Beaumont Adams revolver circa 1856, a WWI era Lee Enfield rifle and two WWII US M1 carbines.”

One farmer told the Herald Sun he handed in some of his family’s rare weaponry because “there are some real bad buggers out there”.

As part of the first amnesty since John Howard’s scheme after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, Australians have handed in approximately 464 firearms a day.

 

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How does it feel to watch your countrymen bend over and spread their cheeks

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6 minutes ago, Moderate said:

How does it feel to watch your countrymen bend over and spread their cheeks

Better to leave unused/unwanted guns laying around?  My dad died in '02 and he had a licensed .38 revolver and none of us wanted it.  I took it to the local PD for "disposal. "  Did I bend over and spread my cheeks?  With all your ass talk, I can only assume you want something up yours...maybe shut you up for a minute.   

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22 minutes ago, Moderate said:

How does it feel to watch your countrymen bend over and spread their cheeks

1ec69ea80b7beaf38ec6dcf999ce3fcb--fabulo

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3 hours ago, Moderate said:

How does it feel to watch your countrymen bend over and spread their cheeks

Hi Moderate. This attitude is pretty typical of Americans today, certainly, but it has evolved in an aggressive direction since the founding fathers.  It seemed to shift massively at the time of the civil war, and the 14th Amendment happened soon after. At that time 44% of state constitutions restricted guns and recognized only militia gun rights, but the nation was flooded with guns. Values changes based on the psychology of gun use. Self defense laws began to be supporteded and re-defined at that time.

I don't deny what the values are today...but I can intelligently present many angles which show that the FF and their English contemporaries were quite restrained about justifying personal violence based on self defense. 

I found an interesting scholar, Darrel Miller, quoted in MacDonald vs Chicago. He examines the values during the FF era.

Quote

Self-Defense, Defense of Others, and the State  see p98

  • The power to kill another human being was, according to English common law history, a power traditionally exclusive to the sovereign.
  • the state cannot rid itself of the responsibility to ensure that deadly force in service of the law is exercised according to constitutional constraints.112
  •  “[t]he government may delegate the task but not the responsibility, and the private actor performing that governmental function must act within the constitutional limitations that apply to the government.”110

  •  Outlawry at common law was the power of the king to declare a person outside the sovereign’s protection—outside of the law.
  •  It is the state’s removal of the person from a baseline of legal protection that raises due process concerns.    

 

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Game set match to Cal20 and Jocal.

Glad to see it's still worth having Moderate on ignore. 

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Mr Keenan said this about the gun amnesty-

Quote

Despite talking up the amnesty, Keenan also said it is:

… probably not going to be the case [that] we would have hardened criminals who have made a big effort to get a hand on illegal guns [who] would necessarily be handing them in.

https://theconversation.com/a-national-amnesty-will-not-rid-australia-of-violent-gun-crime-79563

 

Rolande Browne from Gun Control Australia said this about the amnesty-

Quote

But Tasmanian lawyer and Gun Control Australia vice chair Roland Browne said the amnesty would just pick up old or unwanted guns.

"Amnesty won't fix this problem, amnesty is a band-aid," Mr Browne told AAP.

"By its definition, it will not take the guns away from criminals or would-be terrorists."

 

Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party Victoria MP Jeff Bourman backed the amnesty, but doubted that it would reduce the black market.

"It's not going to solve the crime problem we have at the moment," he told AAP.

He thought it was more likely people would hand in old weapons "like granddad's shotgun".

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/06/16/05/17/amid-terror-threat-govt-offers-gun-amnesty

 

Also in today news a meth addict caught with drugs, pistol and self loading rifle which means semi auto or full auto. He wasn't going to hand them in. Mr Keenan said you can get 14 years jail for having an unregistered gun these guns were unregistered criminals cannot have firearm licenses so why did he get 2 years, is 2 years the average sentence for someone with nearly 20 grams of high purity meth?

Quote

Ice addict drives car full of drugs and weapons to report for bail at police station and is busted

After receiving the tip-off, police searched the young man's car, which he had driven to the station on a disqualified licence, where they discovered a smorgasbord of illegal items.  

They found 19.917 grams of meth at 74 per cent purity, seven knuckle busters, a self-loading firearm, a hand gun, two vials of steroids, oestrogen, a loaded magazine and a second magazine,

A 23-year-old meth addict and 'weapon enthusiast' has been sentenced to two years prison following an 'almost comical' arrest in Rockhampton.

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4862370/Ice-addict-caught-driving-car-drugs-weapons.html

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Mr Keenan said this about the gun amnesty-

 

Rolande Browne from Gun Control Australia said this about the amnesty-

 

Also in today news a meth addict caught with drugs, pistol and self loading rifle which means semi auto or full auto. He wasn't going to hand them in. Mr Keenan said you can get 14 years jail for having an unregistered gun these guns were unregistered criminals cannot have firearm licenses so why did he get 2 years, is 2 years the average sentence for someone with nearly 20 grams of high purity meth?

 

Mohammed, you must have the Dabs syndrome. You seem to be gauging your behavior by criminal behavior. You want meth addicts leading the way for you?

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2 hours ago, LenP said:

 

Macho nonsense.

I disagree, Len. In fact, I'm calling you on it, he's role model material IMO. True macho is when one is bigger than violence.

The National Organization for Women has taken a gun stance. Their plea isn't for gun regulation, directly. What they want is the definition of U.S. masculinity to be re-examined. They would roll with Rollins, random and me. They'd quiz you about your hollow point preferences, and the extreme Pennsylvania statutes you support.

Quote

Gender Roles Must be Part of Dialogue on Gun Violence    

Posted December 18th, 2012 (SIx days after Sandy Hook)

But the aspect of this crisis that deserves more time and thought is our society’s continued attachment to rigid gender roles. The killings listed above involve people of various races and income levels, but the one thing they all share is a male perpetrator.

You may have seen it by now, but zooming around on the internet is an advertisement from Bushmaster Firearms, the maker of the rifle Lanza used to kill 20 schoolchildren. The ad shows a picture of a rifle with the words “Consider your man card reissued.”

That’s not a feminist claiming men are more violent than women — that’s the maker of an assault weapon telling men they aren’t really masculine until they’ve got a deadly gun in their hands. No, Bushmaster didn’t make up sexist stereotypes, but they are cynically exploiting and perpetuating centuries of sexist bullsh*t.

 

N.O.W., STOP GUN VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

WHEREAS, research by the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) indicates that 700 women are murdered with a gun each year; 81% of them were dating or married to the attacker, and another 10% knew the attacker; and

WHEREAS, it costs $67 billion per year to provide for women and children who are victims of domestic violence; and

WHEREAS, the American Journal of Public Health found that  femicides, or intimate partner homicides, occur at an alarming rate of five times more often when there is access to a firearm; this puts the United States death rate at 19 times higher than that of any other industrialized nation in firearm homicides; and...

 

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Gun related deaths per 100,000 per year:

   Australia: 0.93

   USA: 10.54

What else needs to be said?

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2 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Gun related deaths per 100,000 per year:

   Australia: 0.93

   USA: 10.54

What else needs to be said?

If you wait a bit longer, Jeff will be along to tell you that there are black people in the USA.  It's different apparently, supposedly the difference has nothing to do with Laws.

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2 minutes ago, random said:

If you wait a bit longer, Jeff will be along to tell you that there are black people in the USA.  It's different apparently, supposedly the difference has nothing to do with Laws.

I don't really care to wait. As you know, stats don't lie. A gun related death is a death that wouldn't have happened without that gun. More guns equals more dead people. Anybody who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves.

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Uh huh.

tumblr_ljh0puClWT1qfkt17.gif

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1 hour ago, Nice! said:

More guns equals more dead people. Anybody who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves.

If you keep repeating a lie you can deceive yourself and others it's true.

Gun licenses and registered firearms in Australia have nearly double since 1996 while the population has increased from 18 million to 24 million people a huge per capita increase in guns. Gun crime and deaths have simultaneously decreased while gun numbers have increased, an inconvenient truth.

Quote

Table 2.24: Records and searches on the National Firearms Licensing and Registration System

Total number of firearms , 5,798,980 Total number of licences 1,973,522

Page 63-https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/files/net1491/f/2016/10/crimtrac_ar_2015-16_final_071016.pdf
 

 

What caused the pre existing decline in all firearm deaths before our gun laws from 1980-1995 when semi auto rifles with sound moderators and pump action shotguns were allowed for self defence? Why do people ignore the pre existing downward trend with all firearm deaths before our gun laws does it go against the narrative they are trying to construct?

Quote
FIREARM DEATHS BY TYPE OF DEATH
ecblank.gif
Number of deaths
Number of deaths
Number of deaths
Number of deaths
Standardised death rate (a)
Standardised death rate (a)
Standardised death rate (a)
Standardised death rate (a)
Year
Accidents
Suicides
Homicides
Total(b)
Accidents
Suicide
Homicide
Total(b)
1980
62
516
109
700
0.4
3.7
0.8
4.9
1981
36
495
87
632
0.2
3.5
0.6
4.4
1982
48
541
100
701
0.3
3.7
0.7
4.7
1983
40
512
92
654
0.3
3.4
0.6
4.3
1984
32
523
120
687
0.2
3.4
0.8
4.5
1985
35
550
97
710
0.2
3.5
0.6
4.5
1986
28
548
101
696
0.2
3.5
0.6
4.4
1987
27
571
96
711
0.2
3.5
0.6
4.4
1988
30
521
123
695
0.2
3.2
0.7
4.2
1989
19
450
80
569
0.1
2.7
0.5
3.4
1990
30
486
79
614
0.2
2.9
0.5
3.6
1991
29
505
84
629
0.2
2.9
0.5
3.6
1992
24
488
96
622
0.1
2.8
0.5
3.6
1993
18
431
64
522
0.1
2.4
0.4
2.9
1994
20
420
76
529
0.1
2.3
0.4
3.0
1995
15
388
67
479
0.2
2.1
0.3
2.6

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbytitle/9C85BD1298C075EACA2568A900139342?OpenDocument

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2 hours ago, Nice! said:

Gun related deaths per 100,000 per year:

   Australia: 0.93

   USA: 10.54

What else needs to be said?

The Czech Republic has a similar gun death rate to Australia with similar rights to own guns as the USA, the gun grabbers will never cite Czech gun laws it goes against the narrative they're trying to construct.

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See!

giphy.gif

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16 hours ago, Nice! said:

Gun related deaths per 100,000 per year:

   Australia: 0.93

   USA: 10.54

What else needs to be said?

Don't live in Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, ...?   It's where all the weak, violent, stupid people DumbDumb and JokeOff continuously post about.

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20 hours ago, jocal505 said:

I disagree, Len. In fact, I'm calling you on it, he's role model material IMO. True macho is when one is bigger than violence.

The National Organization for Women has taken a gun stance. Their plea isn't for gun regulation, directly. What they want is the definition of U.S. masculinity to be re-examined. They would roll with Rollins, random and me. They'd quiz you about your hollow point preferences, and the extreme Pennsylvania statutes you support.

 

I bet your wife would prefer you were weak and use violence to stop here rape than be macho and allow it to happen.

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14 hours ago, random said:

See!

giphy.gif

Yet you can't answer the question.  Can't think for yourself?

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Pusstrailia at its best.  Fill yer boots, girls.  Different culture, different laws, different history.

Meh.  

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Pusstrailia at its best.  Fill yer boots, girls.  Different culture, different laws, different history.

Meh.  

What they do better than the US is keep weed out criminals before they can become murderers.  If the US did that in major urban areas the country would have similar murder rate stats of where I live.

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Huh??

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On 9/7/2017 at 11:58 PM, random said:

1ec69ea80b7beaf38ec6dcf999ce3fcb--fabulo

God made man. Samuel Colt made them equal.

Just sayin'.......

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21 hours ago, Nice! said:

Gun related deaths per 100,000 per year:

   Australia: 0.93

   USA: 10.54

What else needs to be said?

If only these stats were for the wealthy?

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5 hours ago, Rockdog said:

I bet your wife would prefer you were weak and use violence to stop here rape than be macho and allow it to happen.

People get permaflicked for race baiting or posting an image, while you and others post this shit.  I'm pretty tolerant but I object to this, don't like it at all.

The next time I see you or anyone else use this approach I'm reporting it with links to all the other times I've seen it, including a compelling paragraph on why the poster needs to go.

You choose.

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55 minutes ago, random said:

People get permaflicked for race baiting or posting an image, while you and others post this shit.  I'm pretty tolerant but I object to this, don't like it at all.

The next time I see you or anyone else use this approach I'm reporting it with links to all the other times I've seen it, including a compelling paragraph on why the poster needs to go.

You choose.

I don't care what you do.  Go ahead and 'report' me.  

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Huh??

Rockdog's been playing white nationalist lately, haven't you noticed?

e9d.jpg

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2 hours ago, random said:

People get permaflicked for race baiting or posting an image, while you and others post this shit.  I'm pretty tolerant but I object to this, don't like it at all.

The next time I see you or anyone else use this approach I'm reporting it with links to all the other times I've seen it, including a compelling paragraph on why the poster needs to go.

You choose.

I don't get it.  What's flickable about that post?

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On 9/7/2017 at 8:58 PM, random said:

1ec69ea80b7beaf38ec6dcf999ce3fcb--fabulo

Those who beat thier swords into plowshares will plow for those who dont

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3 hours ago, random said:

People get permaflicked for race baiting or posting an image, while you and others post this shit.  I'm pretty tolerant but I object to this, don't like it at all.

The next time I see you or anyone else use this approach I'm reporting it with links to all the other times I've seen it, including a compelling paragraph on why the poster needs to go.

You choose.

What do you see here that could be resolved with superior firepower

 

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1 hour ago, frenchie said:

I don't get it.  What's flickable about that post?

IMO there's quite a bit you don't get, frenchie. 

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Huh??

They weed out criminals better than we do.  If you do that the number of guns around is irrelevant.

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4 hours ago, frenchie said:

I don't get it.  What's flickable about that post?

Nothing.   DumbDumb obviously complained about someone who was flicked and now thinks he's Superior.   That or he's trolling.

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4 hours ago, frenchie said:

 

Rockdog's been playing white nationalist lately, haven't you noticed?

e9d.jpg

I'm not white.

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Congratulations on that.

I myself identify as a militant black lesbian trans of  north korean decent

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Based on your posts here you should add Nazi to that.

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Its amazing how casually that term is thrown about

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9 hours ago, By the lee said:

God made man. Samuel Colt made them equal.

Just sayin'.......

Samuel Colt improved the chances of the weak and the gutless. Equality has nothing to do with it.

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31 minutes ago, ease the sheet said:

Samuel Colt improved the chances of the weak and the gutless. Equality has nothing to do with it.

You must have a real bad inferiority complex.

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27 minutes ago, ease the sheet said:

Samuel Colt improved the chances of the weak and the gutless. Equality has nothing to do with it.

Increasing the chances of one side simultaneously decreases the chances of the other resulting in equalization of chances.

technology has that effect.

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1 minute ago, By the lee said:

You must have a real bad inferiority complex.

It's not bad enough that I need to hide behind a gun

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Rockdog said:

Increasing the chances of one side simultaneously decreases the chances of the other resulting in equalization of chances.

technology has that effect.

So an American soldier with a rifle is no better than an Afghani with rifle?

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Apparently not.   Still fighting after all these years.

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5 hours ago, Rockdog said:

Nothing.   DumbDumb obviously complained about someone who was flicked and now thinks he's Superior.   That or he's trolling.

I have not complained about a single post from a single poster for years.  I'm not trolling.

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11 hours ago, Rockdog said:

I'm not white.

which is why I said "playing" and called it LQ bait.

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On 8 September 2017 at 4:34 PM, Moderate said:

How does it feel to watch your countrymen bend over and spread their cheeks

How does it feel to have your national identity and manhood determined by ownership of an object? 

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On 08/09/2017 at 6:32 AM, random said:

Australians surrender 26,000 firearms as part of the national gun amnesty

September 8, 2017 2:57pm

“There’s guns that’ve been handed in that would’ve been used during World War II, guns from the 1850s,” Justice Minister Michael Keenan said.

“Among the more unusual firearms handed in under the amnesty have been a Beaumont Adams revolver circa 1856, a WWI era Lee Enfield rifle and two WWII US M1 carbines.”

One farmer told the Herald Sun he handed in some of his family’s rare weaponry because “there are some real bad buggers out there”.

As part of the first amnesty since John Howard’s scheme after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, Australians have handed in approximately 464 firearms a day.

 

Well I hope that the older guns were preserved, rather than just wantonly destroyed. 

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On 08/09/2017 at 5:18 PM, LenP said:

 

Macho nonsense.

Who's Henry Rollins?

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

Well I hope that the older guns were preserved, rather than just wantonly destroyed. 

nuh.

1473815579425.jpg

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15 hours ago, ease the sheet said:

It's not bad enough that I need to hide behind a gun

It's bad enough you advocate violence. 

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9 minutes ago, By the lee said:

It's bad enough you advocate violence. 

Where have I advocated violence?

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5 hours ago, random said:

nuh.

1473815579425.jpg

That photo does say much about what a nanny state we are - why can't they just smash them with a sledge hammer?

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On 9/8/2017 at 7:13 PM, Nice! said:

I don't really care to wait. As you know, stats don't lie. A gun related death is a death that wouldn't have happened without that gun. More guns equals more dead people. Anybody who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves.

More guns = more dead people? OK I'll give you a chance to convince me. And if you do, I'll give up my guns. Here is your question. A good answer that sways me will be the proof 

how many Australians live forever? If there are less deaths, there has to be a corresponding number of those who never die. In the USA the death rate is 1 per person.  

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44 minutes ago, chinabald said:

More guns = more dead people? OK I'll give you a chance to convince me. And if you do, I'll give up my guns. Here is your question. A good answer that sways me will be the proof 

how many Australians live forever? If there are less deaths, there has to be a corresponding number of those who never die. In the USA the death rate is 1 per person.  

george-marks-puzzled-businessman-scratch

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6 hours ago, mad said:

Who's Henry Rollins?

Actor, writer, television and radio host, comedian, singer.

Back in the 80's, lead singer for Black Flag.

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8 hours ago, LB 15 said:

How does it feel to have your national identity and manhood determined by ownership of an object? 

Only men own guns?   

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4 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

Only men own guns?   

Good point - I was simply responding to Moderates assertion that handing in a gun is the same as 'spreading your cheeks'. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there were female gun owners who take it up the ass. My apologies...

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5 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Good point - I was simply responding to Moderates assertion that handing in a gun is the same as 'spreading your cheeks'. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there were female gun owners who take it up the ass. My apologies...

The optics are the gun owners actually WANTED their guns.  If they didn't they would have turned them over to authorities before the call to do so.

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10 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Good point - I was simply responding to Moderates assertion that handing in a gun is the same as 'spreading your cheeks'. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there were female gun owners who take it up the ass. My apologies...

If men enjoy shooting sports  to enhance their 'manliness' why do women enjoy them?

 

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2 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

The optics are the gun owners actually WANTED their guns.  If they didn't they would have turned them over to authorities before the call to do so.

Not all gun owners are gun nuts. My father handed his in after Port Arthur, not because he didn't want them, but because he felt it was the right thing to do. And if you think he is a pussy there are quite a few dead north Koreans that might argue otherwise. It is more likely that those who need to hang onto their phallic symbols that might spread their cheeks.

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1 minute ago, Rockdog said:

If men enjoy shooting sports  to enhance their 'manliness' why do women enjoy them?

 

Why do women enjoy men? Should I draw you a picture?

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On 08/09/2017 at 4:34 PM, Moderate said:

How does it feel to watch your countrymen bend over and spread their cheeks

Never seen it happen here. Perhaps ask a few Trump not-supporters over on the other continent. Why not drop them a line, see how they handle it. You can swap hints on how to deal with getting reamed on a daily basis, them politically and you on the dating circuit.

 

On 09/09/2017 at 11:10 AM, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

The Czech Republic has a similar gun death rate to Australia with similar rights to own guns as the USA, the gun grabbers will never cite Czech gun laws it goes against the narrative they're trying to construct.

Yeah, just like the US won't cite Czech gun laws because there is a licensing and registration requirement that yanks don't want to have anything to do with. A license that can be denied based solely on excessive consumption of alcohol if the police so desire.

Not to mention the US has over 7x the guns per capita as the Czech Republic (as in less guns per person than Australia). You know, something you might consider important if you were trying to refute the statistical correlation between guns and homicide in first world countries. :rolleyes: 

Yet again, MBL proves he doesn't know jack shit about what he's whining on about. I'd be amazed at the sheer level of stubborn stupidity from the guy... but he did mention living in Queensland at one point and those guys are a special case all to themselves.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Not all gun owners are gun nuts. My father handed his in after Port Arthur, not because he didn't want them, but because he felt it was the right thing to do. And if you think he is a pussy there are quite a few dead north Koreans that might argue otherwise. It is more likely that those who need to hang onto their phallic symbols that might spread their cheeks.

What's that have to do with the recent 26k  turned in?

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Why do women enjoy men? Should I draw you a picture?

Shooting sports

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Not all gun owners are gun nuts. My father handed his in after Port Arthur, not because he didn't want them, but because he felt it was the right thing to do. 

And see...... this is what confuses me about the whole gun confiscation mandatory turn in scheme.  Had your father been having feelings about killing other fellow Aussies with his gun?  Was he going to shoot your or your mother in the next few months or so after Port Arthur?  Did he have mass murder tendencies in his heart?  Was he undergoing psychiatric care?  

If you answer no to all of those questions above - then how was his turning his gun in "the right thing to do"?  How did him not having a gun anymore - assuming he had never previously used it for evil purposes or was likely to ever do so - help society?  

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20 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

Not to mention the US has over 7x the guns per capita as the Czech Republic (as in less guns per person than Australia). You know, something you might consider important if you were trying to refute the statistical correlation between guns and homicide in first world countries. :rolleyes: 

And this is another common argument that never makes sense.  How does Gunz per capita have anything to do with crime or violence rates?  Many many US gun owners own multiple gunz.  If I own 50 gunz, am I 50x more likely to commit murder with them?  How many can I shoot at once in a crime spree?  Even if I were a Bad Mutherfucker and could shoot two Glocks sideways at once - my other 48 gunz would be lonely and still sitting in my safe at home while I'm in a running street battle.

pulp-fiction-bad-mother-fucker-walletwmk

 

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And this is another common argument that never makes sense.  How does Gunz per capita have anything to do with crime or violence rates?

The higher the number of guns, in general, the more accessible they are to those that will use them to injure/kill. The more accessible a tool, the more likely it's use in tasks they are suited for. When the tool is a lethal weapon, the tasks it is suited for are more likely to cause a lethal result. 

 

1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

If I own 50 gunz, am I 50x more likely to commit murder with them?

No, but 7x more guns per capita doesn't mean the same number of collectors possessing 7x more firearms. Guns per capita is a rough measure of the number of people that own guns within a given population. The Czech Republic also has gun collectors with a higher concentration of guns owned by them and them alone. Try another line, cos that one is trivial bullshit. Easier to refute than MBL's attempt (and that's saying something).

It's quite indicative that the same logical fallacies are dug up time & time again by pro-gun folks. Though, I guess with Tom being somewhat busy, you're pulling double-shifts for the team :lol: 


 

 

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34 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And see...... this is what confuses me about the whole gun confiscation mandatory turn in scheme.  Had your father been having feelings about killing other fellow Aussies with his gun?  Was he going to shoot your or your mother in the next few months or so after Port Arthur?  Did he have mass murder tendencies in his heart?  Was he undergoing psychiatric care?  

If you answer no to all of those questions above - then how was his turning his gun in "the right thing to do"?  How did him not having a gun anymore - assuming he had never previously used it for evil purposes or was likely to ever do so - help society?  

I am sure the old man felt like shooting me when I rolled his Mercedes when I was 19. After Port A the entire nation was in shock and I guess he felt that having guns in a house just wasn't responsible particularly as he didn't use them anymore and they certainly weren't needed for self defence. Having served in Korea he had/has no romantic visions about what guns are for. So yeah not having guns lying around that could be stolen by bad guys was helping society. 

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17 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:
35 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And this is another common argument that never makes sense.  How does Gunz per capita have anything to do with crime or violence rates?

The higher the number of guns, in general, the more accessible they are to those that will use them to injure/kill. The more accessible a tool, the more likely it's use in tasks they are suited for. When the tool is a lethal weapon, the tasks it is suited for are more likely to cause a lethal result. 

But that's only true if you operate on the assumption that everyone that owns gunz either are more likely those that will injure or Kill others or have their tools accessible to those that are likely to injure or kill (i.e. theft).  

The first one is a huge fucking fallacy because the vast vast majority of American gun owner do not kill or injure other people.  The theft issue is a completely different story and I agree its a problem in some place where thieves can get their hands on gunz and then those gunz find their way into bad people's hands.  However, that is a separate issue.  I am an advocate of storage regulations and holding people accountable for gunz they let get stolen too easily that are not secured or reported stolen.  

If your main argument to remove guns from society is because they might get stolen, then you have a weak ass argument.  

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Just now, LB 15 said:

I am sure the old man felt like shooting me when I rolled his Mercedes when I was 19. After Port A the entire nation was in shock and I guess he felt that having guns in a house just wasn't responsible particularly as he didn't use them anymore and they certainly weren't needed for self defence. Having served in Korea he had/has no romantic visions about what guns are for. So yeah not having guns lying around that could be stolen by bad guys was helping society. 

Fair enough.  However, I'm not an advocate for having gunz "lying around".  YMMV.  However his decision and his society.  

Its a shame that an "entire nation in shock" didn't direct their energy and their angst against the likely fact that the shooter was mentally deranged and mental health issues and treatment need to be addressed.  Same for the US.  I am not aware of a single US mass murderer who was also not mentally unhinged to some degree.  But yeah, lets blame the tools and ignore the actual root causes.

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I blame the tools and the gi joe barbies who pledge allegiance.

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About the OP.  Several decades ago, a friend asked me to 'look after my rifle till the next time we go hunting'.  That's what i have been doing but we never went hunting together again, don't know where he is.  But I have been keeping it as he could swing by any day. 

So I will have to hand it in this time.  Sorry mate.

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40 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

But that's only true if you operate on the assumption that everyone that owns gunz either are more likely those that will injure or Kill others or have their tools accessible to those that are likely to injure or kill (i.e. theft).

I am not arguing the former. You later agree the latter is a problem.

 

Quote

The first one is a huge fucking fallacy because the vast vast majority of American gun owner do not kill or injure other people.

I agree - it is a fallacy. It's your strawman. Have fun beating the tar out of it.

 

Quote

The theft issue is a completely different story and I agree its a problem in some place where thieves can get their hands on gunz and then those gunz find their way into bad people's hands.  However, that is a separate issue.  I am an advocate of storage regulations and holding people accountable for gunz they let get stolen too easily that are not secured or reported stolen.

It's not a separate issue. It is a factor even you agree is a problem when it comes to guns and their prevalence in the hands of those that will use them. When you get around to addressing the problem and proving that you can keep guns out of the hands of thieves - let us know. We have gone a different route and have a far lower homicide rate. I'm a big fan of proof. I await to see yours.

 

Quote

If your main argument to remove guns from society is because they might get stolen, then you have a weak ass argument.  

It isn't my main argument. You decided to cherry-pick one element of what is meant by "prevalence of guns in a population" and are running with it. Seems to be your main argument, not mine. It is, as you point out, an important element to the problem and when you get around to fixing it - let us know... but it is not the "main argument" by any stretch.

As you've spoken about in the past - deranged killers will often use their own guns or the guns of those their family owns. So regardless of the precautions taken against thieves, people with intent to kill will often find themselves in possession of a firearm. If there are less friends and family to get them from, if there is less capability for a person to walk in off the street to buy one, there is less chance of that firearm being used in a homicide. Logic bears that out. The statistics bear that out.

It's not, and no-one has ever argued it being, a simple one-to-one correlation between one person owning a firearm and one using it in homicide. It is inarguable, however, that firearms homicide needs a firearm. Remove the firearm, remove that avenue for murder (whether premeditated or in the heat of the moment). When a more effective means at preventing homicide comes along that leaves us with as many or more freedoms as we have now - you get back to us with the evidence it works.

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Thanks Siri. If we need to know anymore we will hold the button down.

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I dunno Jeff, if you scroll through the list of Youtube videos about Hurricane IRMA and read of all the god botherers wailing about how this is the culmination of all humanity not repenting and God's wrath is descendiing on us all,  I'd argue a few million shouldn't be near a sharp knife let  alone a decent rifle or handgun.

The comments are enlightening, some are more scary than the videos.

   

 

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10 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I dunno Jeff, if you scroll through the list of Youtube videos about Hurricane IRMA and read of all the god botherers wailing about how this is the culmination of all humanity not repenting and God's wrath is descendiing on us all,  I'd argue a few million shouldn't be near a sharp knife let  alone a decent rifle or handgun.

The comments are enlightening, some are more scary than the videos.

   

 

I don't disagree.  I'm happy to entertain any ideas on how we screen for that type of mental illness.

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7 hours ago, Rockdog said:

If men enjoy shooting sports  to enhance their 'manliness' why do women enjoy them?

 

To meet manly men at the gun clubs and ranges of course. There aren't as many at the free range organic food store. 

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

 

Its a shame that an "entire nation in shock" didn't direct their energy and their angst against the likely fact that the shooter was mentally deranged and mental health issues and treatment need to be addressed.  Same for the US.  I am not aware of a single US mass murderer who was also not mentally unhinged to some degree.  But yeah, lets blame the tools and ignore the actual root causes.

Conjecture. You're blaming all mentally ill for the actions of a few, without cites or evidence. Some mass shootings are politically based. Most mass murders are stressed-out domestic situations; the mental condition of the perps is mostly unknown. If we support better research the picture won't be as foggy.

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11 hours ago, chinabald said:

More guns = more dead people? OK I'll give you a chance to convince me. And if you do, I'll give up my guns. Here is your question. A good answer that sways me will be the proof 

how many Australians live forever? If there are less deaths, there has to be a corresponding number of those who never die. In the USA the death rate is 1 per person.  

It doesn't matter if there are stupid gun deaths, or not? It doesn't matter that gun rights are based on falsehoods?

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7 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Conjecture. You're blaming all mentally ill for the actions of a few, without cites or evidence. Some mass shootings are politically based. Most mass murders are stressed-out domestic situations; the mental condition of the perps is mostly unknown. If we support better research the picture won't be as foggy.

Absolute HORSESHIT!  The mass shootings that garner the headlines and drive gun grabber policy have almost ALL been due to known mentally ill shitbags.  

  • Newtown
  • Aurora
  • Tuscon (gabby Giffords)
  • Maryland Navy yard
  • Orlando
  • Port Arthur
  • Va Tech
  • Charleston Church

Yeah there have been some hate and or political mass shootings.  But they have been exceedingly rare.  

And I'm not blaming ALL mentally ill for the actions of a few.  I'm saying we should address mental illness better as a root cause of a lot of this issue rather than tools.

But you sure as fuck are blaming ALL gunowners for the actions of a few.  Hypocrite much?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

It doesn't matter that gun rights are based on falsehoods?

Are you calling the Constitution a falsehood, cuntboi???

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Absolute HORSESHIT!  The mass shootings that garner the headlines and drive gun grabber policy have almost ALL been due to known mentally ill shitbags.  

  • Newtown
  • Aurora
  • Tuscon (gabby Giffords)
  • Maryland Navy yard
  • Orlando
  • Port Arthur
  • Va Tech
  • Charleston Church

Yeah there have been some hate and or political mass shootings.  But they have been exceedingly rare.  

And I'm not blaming ALL mentally ill for the actions of a few.  I'm saying we should address mental illness better as a root cause of a lot of this issue rather than tools.

But you sure as fuck are blaming ALL gunowners for the actions of a few.  Hypocrite much?

 

 

You didn't specify headliners, Jeffie Poo. And you sound upset again. Please source "exceedingly rare". Your position is an opinion.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Are you calling the Constitution a falsehood, cuntboi???

Easy does it, my good man.

I can lay out Scalia's approach to the Second as a willful fabrication. He had an interesting and fanciful approach. And it may have backfired on you.

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7 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

 

One of the things that has bugged me about much of the research is that it generally does not differentiate between legal gun owners and those who possess guns illegally. The study in Philadelphia on whether carrying a gun increased the risk of homicide, and it too included known felons who were prohibited from possessing a gun with those who had a legal license to carry firearms.

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20 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Absolute HORSESHIT!  The mass shootings that garner the headlines and drive gun grabber policy have almost ALL been due to known mentally ill shitbags.  

  • Newtown
  • Aurora
  • Tuscon (gabby Giffords)
  • Maryland Navy yard
  • Orlando
  • Port Arthur
  • Va Tech
  • Charleston Church

Yeah there have been some hate and or political mass shootings.  But they have been exceedingly rare.  

And I'm not blaming ALL mentally ill for the actions of a few.  I'm saying we should address mental illness better as a root cause of a lot of this issue rather than tools.

But you sure as fuck are blaming ALL gunowners for the actions of a few.  Hypocrite much?

 

 

Not to mention that a large percentage of domestic violence is rooted in sociopathy. How much is difficult to say with certainty as most sociopaths avoid treatment and therefor go undiagnosed. How to prevent those people from gaining access to firearms without limiting the rights of the rest of us? I don't know. In many cases they are prohibited due to other criminal activity, however they don't care much for following laws, so....

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And this is another common argument that never makes sense.  How does Gunz per capita have anything to do with crime or violence rates?

The strong per-capita correlation (between high gun ownership and high gun violence) is for you to explain.

A second correlation exists between loose gun laws and higher crime outcomes.

A third correlation exists between TRC "shall issue" statutes and higher violent crime, including rape.

Can cite each.

 

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17 hours ago, mad said:

Ihttps://firearmsamnesty.ag.gov.au/Pages/home.aspx

 

It does look like there's an option that they can hopefully be sold to a collector or a museum and save the historical guns from destruction. 

 

The guns can be sold and registered or sent for destruction.

Quote

So far, 11,305 firearms have been handed in for registration, sale or destruction across NSW.

Of those, 3579 firearms and firearm-related items have been surrendered to police for destruction or registration.

Anyone with an unregistered firearm or firearm-related item can legally dispose or register it without penalty until September 30 at approved drop-off points, which include licensed firearm dealers, mobile stations and police stations.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/hills-shire-times/thousands-of-guns-legally-held-in-residential-kellyville/news-story/65dca1cd3784121fb66d002230efb6eb

 

Of course the gun grabbers will say every gun was surrendered for destruction they will leave out the fact many of them could have been sold and registered.

Only 3579 were surrendered to Police and all the others were surrendered to firearm dealers to be sold and registered.

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Just now, LenP said:

Not to mention that a large percentage of domestic violence is rooted in sociopathy. How much is difficult to say with certainty as most sociopaths avoid treatment and therefor go undiagnosed. How to prevent those people from gaining access to firearms without limiting the rights of the rest of us? I don't know. In many cases they are prohibited due to other criminal activity, however they don't care much for following laws, so....

You could minimize the genepool of guns available to the criminals. You could enforce background checks for private sales, give accountability to the seller. You could support decent interstate gun trafficking laws. You could increase federal funding for the study of socio pathologicalogical violence.

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36 minutes ago, LenP said:

One of the things that has bugged me about much of the research is that it generally does not differentiate between legal gun owners and those who possess guns illegally. The study in Philadelphia on whether carrying a gun increased the risk of homicide, and it too included known felons who were prohibited from possessing a gun with those who had a legal license to carry firearms.

There's four total episodes and they talk a little bit about that in Episode 1.  Really, one of the major challenges to any of this analysis is the lack of data.  Some illegal gun owners own guns.  Some legal gun owners own illegal guns.  Some guns used to commit crimes are 'illegal' variants of 'legal' guns, like the Colt 1911.

After watching the episodes, one thing that really comes out through and through is that most of the discussions around guns focus on politically interesting but second order problems.  The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides and the vast majority of homicides are committed by people against people who know each other.  Few of the laws being discussed will have any impact on either situation.  The episode on suicide is pretty thorough.  Even the gang shootings are rarely 'random' events.  There are random people shot but the shooters are going after specific targets - or at least those wearing the appropriate colors - on the other side.  

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8 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

There's four total episodes and they talk a little bit about that in Episode 1.  Really, one of the major challenges to any of this analysis is the lack of data.  Some illegal gun owners own guns.  Some legal gun owners own illegal guns.  Some guns used to commit crimes are 'illegal' variants of 'legal' guns, like the Colt 1911.

After watching the episodes, one thing that really comes out through and through is that most of the discussions around guns focus on politically interesting but second order problems.  The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides and the vast majority of homicides are committed by people against people who know each other.  Few of the laws being discussed will have any impact on either situation.  The episode on suicide is pretty thorough.  Even the gang shootings are rarely 'random' events.  There are random people shot but the shooters are going after specific targets - or at least those wearing the appropriate colors - on the other side.  

DING DING DING!!!!  

And you will have a hard time convincing joecuck that gang shootings are even a "thing".  

BTW - how is a Colt 1911 an illegal variant of a legal gun????

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17 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

DING DING DING!!!!  

And you will have a hard time convincing joecuck that gang shootings are even a "thing".  

Misquote much? Point fingers much?

I am appalled at what's going on there, while quoting actual figures. The figures get used as racebaiting levers pretty frequently. Here's some info I offered on PA in 2013. (in this case, some bozo had stated on PA that the rates are 27X worse...) 

The point here is that more guns don't need to be added to the mix.

Quote

Based on available data from 1980 to 2008—

Blacks were disproportionately represented as both homicide

victims and off enders. The victimization rate for blacks (27.8

per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per

100,000). The offending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost

8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000) (table 1).

 

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25 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

DING DING DING!!!!  

And you will have a hard time convincing joecuck that gang shootings are even a "thing".  

BTW - how is a Colt 1911 an illegal variant of a legal gun????

 

Illegal variants of legal guns.  For example, ghost guns:

 

 

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By the way, the corollary to the " Few of the laws being discussed will have any impact on either situation"  discussion is that HAVING a gun for 'personal protection' doesn't make you any safer or less likely to actually be the victim of a violent crime.  That's also a red herring.  

 

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27 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

There's four total episodes and they talk a little bit about that in Episode 1.  Really, one of the major challenges to any of this analysis is the lack of data.  Some illegal gun owners own guns.  Some legal gun owners own illegal guns.  Some guns used to commit crimes are 'illegal' variants of 'legal' guns, like the Colt 1911.

After watching the episodes, one thing that really comes out through and through is that most of the discussions around guns focus on politically interesting but second order problems.  The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides and the vast majority of homicides are committed by people against people who know each other.  Few of the laws being discussed will have any impact on either situation.  The episode on suicide is pretty thorough.  Even the gang shootings are rarely 'random' events.  There are random people shot but the shooters are going after specific targets - or at least those wearing the appropriate colors - on the other side.  

I will try and watch all the full episodes one evening this week. There is definitely a lack of good data, as most of the people engaged in "research" are firmly on one side of the debate or the other, and have an agenda which compromises the objectiveness of the studies. I still believe one of the most effective things we could do is end the war on drugs, and then focus on who is still committing violent crimes and keep them locked up for much longer periods of time. The WOD overshadows everything else right now, and the real threats to public safety often get a quick release to make space for someone selling pot or other drugs, but who is otherwise non-violent. Even gun crimes often get plead out, so a dealer gets caught selling some drugs and also has an illegal gun on him. He pleads out to the drugs, and the gun crime goes away, making it still harder to understand what might help cut down on illegal gun trafficking and illegal access to guns.

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The first episode talks about the meta analysis of the data and studies that are out there.  I think there's like 34 of them or something?  That's pretty informative also.  The guys that put those videos together are really pretty good at what they do and I recommend their channel.  They talk about all kinds of health related topics.

All their videos are pretty much about health and health impacts and they try to stick with the data as much as possible. 

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