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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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SAILS149

Racing without spinnaker pole

39 posts in this topic

Hi, is it allowed by racing rules to use a spinnaker without a pole ( except when setting or dousing). I have always though it was not allowed but cannot find a proper reference in the current rules. Class rules might apply but some are loose and don't specify use of pole.

thanks Warren 

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only rule I can think of relating to spinnaker is 50.2 which requires the pole, if used, to be attached to the mast 

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It would outlaw every boat that flies an asym tacked down to the bow. I'm curious as to how you would set a sym chute with no pole?

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Hi I referring to a conventional or symmetrical spinnaker with pole as  used on race boats like a Thistle, Flying scot, Lightening,505 , J22 , J24 etc 

Rule 50 is about the only place spinnakers are even mentioned. I thought there used to be a rule that a sail must be set in it conventional position , it you cant fly a mainsail upside down etc.     so if there is no ruling can a fly a spinnaker without a pole using just the twings when shorthanded or lazy or on a short course?  that cant be right?

thanks warren

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30 minutes ago, ajbram said:

It would outlaw every boat that flies an asym tacked down to the bow. I'm curious as to how you would set a sym chute with no pole?

You can fly a sym chute without a pole deep down wind , on short course/legs (2-5 minutes) racing getting a pole up can loose you a lot of time , hanging a chute up for a few minutes can double you sail area and make a difference. you can use twings to add some control.   cheers warren

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It's also a good tactical option.  For example, not quite laying the leeward mark/gate, take the pole off and jibe for a few boatlengths to get to the layline, jibe back, and assuming you're pretty close to the mark, roll into the set jib/douse chute.

Another one I like in mixed fleets - sailing deep on port and an asym boat comes up under you, forcing you up away from your best course.  Throw the main over and call starboard.  The pole can come off until you decide which way you want to go.  If the asym boat jibes away, you can go back to port jibe or stay on starboard, now to leeward of the asym boat.

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31 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

You can fly a sym chute without a pole deep down wind , on short course/legs (2-5 minutes) racing getting a pole up can loose you a lot of time , hanging a chute up for a few minutes can double you sail area and make a difference. you can use twings to add some control.   cheers warren

It's not flying the chute deep with no pole that I took issue with. We never lost time getting the pole up, and with the usual bear-away set on stbd. it's common to sail hot after the set and gain some course, then gybe to port so you are not sailing ddw. Setting a sym kite at hot angles with no foreguy is to me slower (through not filling the chute) than getting the pole up.

10 minutes ago, condor said:

It's also a good tactical option.  For example, not quite laying the leeward mark/gate, take the pole off and jibe for a few boatlengths to get to the layline, jibe back, and assuming you're pretty close to the mark, roll into the set jib/douse chute.

Another one I like in mixed fleets - sailing deep on port and an asym boat comes up under you, forcing you up away from your best course.  Throw the main over and call starboard.  The pole can come off until you decide which way you want to go.  If the asym boat jibes away, you can go back to port jibe or stay on starboard, now to leeward of the asym boat.

Again, I completely get flying the sym chute with no pole - once the kite is up. It's a skill everyone needs in order to properly gybe without collapsing the kite anyways. Just setting with no pole is not so easy. Do you round, then turn ddw, sheet both twings and sheets to pin down the corners as you hoist? Seems slower than a usual bear-away to me.

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1 hour ago, ajbram said:

It's not flying the chute deep with no pole that I took issue with. We never lost time getting the pole up, and with the usual bear-away set on stbd. it's common to sail hot after the set and gain some course, then gybe to port so you are not sailing ddw. Setting a sym kite at hot angles with no foreguy is to me slower (through not filling the chute) than getting the pole up.

Again, I completely get flying the sym chute with no pole - once the kite is up. It's a skill everyone needs in order to properly gybe without collapsing the kite anyways. Just setting with no pole is not so easy. Do you round, then turn ddw, sheet both twings and sheets to pin down the corners as you hoist? Seems slower than a usual bear-away to me.

The no pole hoist is one of a bowman's last chance defences against an inept (late, confused or indecisive) tactician.

Instead of pulling all the gear around and moving the pole for a fully rigged gybe set, you just take the guy out of the jaws and hoist the kite.  Pull the clew around the bow and it can free-fly nicely in front of the boat while you drop the headsail and they gybe the boat.  The pole goes on last.

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2 hours ago, condor said:

It's also a good tactical option.  For example, not quite laying the leeward mark/gate, take the pole off and jibe for a few boatlengths to get to the layline, jibe back, and assuming you're pretty close to the mark, roll into the set jib/douse chute.

Another one I like in mixed fleets - sailing deep on port and an asym boat comes up under you, forcing you up away from your best course.  Throw the main over and call starboard.  The pole can come off until you decide which way you want to go.  If the asym boat jibes away, you can go back to port jibe or stay on starboard, now to leeward of the asym boat.

Thanks some good points, I'm sailing small boat with 1-3 man crews on short courses so getting a sail working soon if very important. But is it legal with inthe rules.

you said   Throw the main over and call starboard.  .....you can't jibe into a position of rights like that unless the boat is at least 2 boat lengths astern before the jibe........cheers

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2 hours ago, ajbram said:

It's not flying the chute deep with no pole that I took issue with. We never lost time getting the pole up, and with the usual bear-away set on stbd. it's common to sail hot after the set and gain some course, then gybe to port so you are not sailing ddw. Setting a sym kite at hot angles with no foreguy is to me slower (through not filling the chute) than getting the pole up.

Again, I completely get flying the sym chute with no pole - once the kite is up. It's a skill everyone needs in order to properly gybe without collapsing the kite anyways. Just setting with no pole is not so easy. Do you round, then turn ddw, sheet both twings and sheets to pin down the corners as you hoist? Seems slower than a usual bear-away to me.

I actually use my pole all the time , I have a 3/4 rig and need everything I can get. But taking pole off early and flying say the last 100yds into mark with out a pole is a foul , it's not with in the rules but I can't find out what rule applies otherwise I might start doing it! Single handed chute flying is hard enough.......

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20 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

you said   Throw the main over and call starboard.  .....you can't jibe into a position of rights like that unless the boat is at least 2 boat lengths astern before the jibe........cheers

I think you might be using a different rule book than the rest of world.

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15 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

But taking pole off early and flying say the last 100yds into mark with out a pole is a foul , it's not with in the rules but I can't find out what rule applies otherwise I might start doing it! Single handed chute flying is hard enough.......

what.are you.talking about?

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9 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

I actually use my pole all the time , I have a 3/4 rig and need everything I can get. But taking pole off early and flying say the last 100yds into mark with out a pole is a foul , it's not with in the rules but I can't find out what rule applies otherwise I might start doing it! Single handed chute flying is hard enough.......

Why is it a foul?

Surely if its not within the rules you should be able to identify the rule that prohibits this?

 

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25 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

.you can't jibe into a position of rights like that unless the boat is at least 2 boat lengths astern before the jibe........cheers

Um....... yes you can. You have to give them room to keep clear, (R15) but I can't think of any other restriction.

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Great tatical comments guy BUT how long is it legal to fly a sym spinnaker without the pole?  Cheers Warren

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3 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

Great tatical comments guy BUT how long is it legal to fly a sym spinnaker without the pole?  Cheers Warren

I have take a look, and I cant find anything that says it is not legal to fly a sym spinnaker without the pole.

Where does your understanding that it is not legal come from, that may help identify the answer to your question.

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9 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

Great tatical comments guy BUT how long is it legal to fly a sym spinnaker without the pole?  Cheers Warren

Forever.

Whoever taught you the racing rules of sailing fucked you up good and proper.

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12 minutes ago, fucket said:

I think you might be using a different rule book than the rest of world.

2 boats running on port , one gybes to starboard. The boat that gybed doe not gain right to luff up the port boat. He must give room to keep clear and also hold a proper course, which would be dead down wind in this case. Rule 15 & 17.

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11 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I have take a look, and I cant find anything that says it is not legal to fly a sym spinnaker without the pole.

Where does your understanding that it is not legal come from, that may help identify the answer to your question.

My understanding has been that way for a long time. You must sail a boat the way it was intended .It would usually come from a boats class rules but absent good class rules I must turn to the rrs.  We have protested people out of the races for sailing without a spinnaker pole but it's been a while......  it could just be the sportsmanship rule but that's not enough to given the current attitude of people today.  Any thoughts?

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37 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

2 boats running on port , one gybes to starboard. The boat that gybed doe not gain right to luff up the port boat. He must give room to keep clear and also hold a proper course, which would be dead down wind in this case. Rule 15 & 17.

Nope.  Rule 17 only applies to boats on same tack.  Once you jibe to starboard, after you initially allow the port boat room to keep clear (R 15), the port boat has to keep clear of you (R 10).  You are not limited in what course you want to steer.

R 17 actually creates the situation.  The asym boat is coming from behind, but their proper course is higher than the sym boat wants to sail, so the sym boat to weather has to come up above their proper course to keep clear of the leeward boat.  If on port, throwing the main across puts the former weather boat on starboard and gains the right of way.

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35 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

2 boats running on port , one gybes to starboard. The boat that gybed doe not gain right to luff up the port boat. He must give room to keep clear and also hold a proper course, which would be dead down wind in this case. Rule 15 & 17.

Jesus Christ. Read the fucking rules, man.

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33 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

My understanding has been that way for a long time. You must sail a boat the way it was intended .It would usually come from a boats class rules but absent good class rules I must turn to the rrs.  We have protested people out of the races for sailing without a spinnaker pole but it's been a while......  it could just be the sportsmanship rule but that's not enough to given the current attitude of people today.  Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that your understanding is baseless and completely wrong and that I would really hate to end up on a race course with you screaming and protesting about non-existent rules.

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I think there was a rule at one time about having to use a pole on a spinnaker, but it went way a long time ago.  20-30 years ago at least.

 

Anyone have really old rule books around?

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Class rules must be where the use of a spinnaker pole is specified, example from Thistle class rules

"#76. The tack of the spinnaker , when drawing and set, shall be within 6" of the outboard end of the spinnaker pole"

But I have looked at the class rules for , flyingscott, j22, j24, etchells,  lightning, buccaneer18,505.   Non say much about actual use of sails or spars during a race.  And non say anything about how the spinnaker is supposed to be flown except loose phrases like forward of the mast.  So apparently any innovative way of using the equipment might be within many class rules.

So my conclusion is unless specified by class rule the use of a spinnaker pole on a symmetrical spinnaker is optional unless it violates a fundamental rule of racing and sportsmanship.

thank you for your time

  Warren 

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39 minutes ago, condor said:

Nope.  Rule 17 only applies to boats on same tack.  Once you jibe to starboard, after you initially allow the port boat room to keep clear (R 15), the port boat has to keep clear of you (R 10).  You are not limited in what course you want to steer.

R 17 actually creates the situation.  The asym boat is coming from behind, but their proper course is higher than the sym boat wants to sail, so the sym boat to weather has to come up above their proper course to keep clear of the leeward boat.  If on port, throwing the main across puts the former weather boat on starboard and gains the right of way.

Thanks I stand corrected.  I appreciate the explanation.  Warren

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38 minutes ago, fucket said:

My thoughts are that your understanding is baseless and completely wrong and that I would really hate to end up on a race course with you screaming and protesting about non-existent rules.

I also am glad I do not sail races with somebody as a rude and unhelpful as you.

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I think it used to be in the rules that a crewmember couldn't hold a sheet or guy outboard of the hull, that this had to be accomplished with a pole or reaching strut. But I believe that's now allowed for a Mexican take down. Rather than late gybing just prior to the leeward mark you can drop the pole using a crew member to hold the guy away from the mast while the jib is gybed and then drop the chute inside the jib. I've never heard it said that you can only do that for a certain distance. Since it's DDW, it's actually a slower point of sail, you would only do it just before the drop and rounding.

If the rules required the pole be attached it wouldn't be possible. 

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21 hours ago, SAILS149 said:

Hi, is it allowed by racing rules to use a spinnaker without a pole

 

19 hours ago, SAILS149 said:

I thought there used to be a rule that a sail must be set in it conventional position ,

1989 rule 64.3 Use of Spinnakers

A spinnaker, including a headsail set as s spinnaker shall not be set without a boom.  The tack of a spinnaker that is set and drawing shall be in close proximity to the outboard end of the spinnaker boom, except when hoisting, gybing or lowering the spinnaker.

Deleted in the 1995 rewrite

13 hours ago, kinardly said:

I think it used to be in the rules that a crewmember couldn't hold a sheet or guy outboard of the hull, that this had to be accomplished with a pole or reaching strut.

Certainly not since 1962.

CASE 4
Rule 49, Crew Position; Lifelines
Rule 50.3(a), Setting and Sheeting Sails: Use of Outriggers

A competitor may hold a sheet outboard.
Question
Is it permissible for a competitor to hold the sheet of a headsail or spinnaker outboard?
Answer
Rule 50.3(a) prohibits the use of an outrigger and defines it to be a fitting or other device. A competitor is neither a fitting nor a device. It is therefore permissible for a competitor to hold a sheet outboard, provided that rule 49 is complied with.

GBR 1962/41

 

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On 9/9/2017 at 6:29 AM, Brass said:

 

1989 rule 64.3 Use of Spinnakers

A spinnaker, including a headsail set as s spinnaker shall not be set without a boom.  The tack of a spinnaker that is set and drawing shall be in close proximity to the outboard end of the spinnaker boom, except when hoisting, gybing or lowering the spinnaker.

Deleted in the 1995 rewrite

Certainly not since 1962.

CASE 4
Rule 49, Crew Position; Lifelines
Rule 50.3(a), Setting and Sheeting Sails: Use of Outriggers

A competitor may hold a sheet outboard.
Question
Is it permissible for a competitor to hold the sheet of a headsail or spinnaker outboard?
Answer
Rule 50.3(a) prohibits the use of an outrigger and defines it to be a fitting or other device. A competitor is neither a fitting nor a device. It is therefore permissible for a competitor to hold a sheet outboard, provided that rule 49 is complied with.

GBR 1962/41

 

'Brass'....Thank you so much for finding that from the older versions of the rules. I appriciate you taking the time to look it up for me. I'll see if I can find an old rule book as I keep everything!

Its defiantly nice to know my memory was not failing me, just as little out of date!

I also have a new option in my short course racing...

Cheers Warren 

IMG_0424.JPG

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On 9/8/2017 at 11:18 PM, Dex Sawash said:

The ERS are where you would find your "must use pole rule" if it existed.

http://www.sailing.org/documents/equipmentrules/index.php

 

Thanks Dex,    Very interesting I have never seen these world sailing 'equipement' rules but I guess always assumed there was something like this.

 I see that they only apply if specifically mentioned in the class rules or notice of race and I have never seen that in my smaller keel and CB boat racing circles. I'll look for them now. 

Cheers Warren 

 

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41 minutes ago, SAILS149 said:

'Brass'....Thank you so much for finding that from the older versions of the rules. I appriciate you taking the time to look it up for me. I'll see if I can find an old rule book as I keep everything!

Its defiantly nice to know my memory was not failing me, just as little out of date!

 

And you've only been using the wrong rules for 22 years (minumum)!

 

When is the last time you updated your computer

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For doing a Mexican, Rule 49.2 restricts how long the person can have his torso outside the lifelines when being the human guy - it can only be "briefly". 

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From a practical perspective,  flying a spinnaker with no pole must be allowed by the rules because setting and dousing typically the pole and chute are often deployed/reclovered  with some sort of time gap involved.  For example, a gybe set may see the chute hoisted before a pole can be deployed.  Similarly the pole is often removed before the chute is doused.  To have a rule about this is nonsensical.

 

That said, the 'outrigger' rule is to ensure people do not try to clip the pole to a toe rail or such and effectively increase its length.  If you use logic, it's all pretty obvious.

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On 9/11/2017 at 8:29 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

And you've only been using the wrong rules for 22 years (minumum)!

 

When is the last time you updated your computer

Computer! I read rules on paper but have enough trouble figuring out the subtle rule changes every few years....oh,and I have computers running everything from win10 to XP since older machinery won't take 5-10yr old input. 

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13 hours ago, 2savage said:

From a practical perspective,  flying a spinnaker with no pole must be allowed by the rules because setting and dousing typically the pole and chute are often deployed/reclovered  with some sort of time gap involved.  For example, a gybe set may see the chute hoisted before a pole can be deployed.  Similarly the pole is often removed before the chute is doused.  To have a rule about this is nonsensical.

 

That said, the 'outrigger' rule is to ensure people do not try to clip the pole to a toe rail or such and effectively increase its length.  If you use logic, it's all pretty obvious.

See also earlier post from 'brass' where rules did in the past require use of a pole except when setting and dousing. Cheers.

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On 9/8/2017 at 2:04 PM, SAILS149 said:

I actually use my pole all the time , I have a 3/4 rig and need everything I can get. But taking pole off early and flying say the last 100yds into mark with out a pole is a foul , it's not with in the rules but I can't find out what rule applies otherwise I might start doing it! Single handed chute flying is hard enough.......

Actually I think you're confused. 50.2 says that "only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing" and that it needs to be attached to the foremost mast. However, nowhere in the rules does it say that you can't fly a spinnaker with less than one spinnaker or whisker pole. I'm certain that this was one of the rules scenarios in Dave Perry's book.

Also, while we're on the subject, at a recent race, someone made the claim that you can't "pole out" your genoa with a whisker or spinnaker pole. That's covered under 50.3 (c ) which says it's legal as long as you're not flying a spinnaker as well.

hint: if you can't find in the rules where it's prohibited, either explicitly or implicitly,  then unless it's a class rule, you can do it.

 

Edit: whoops, beaten to it by Brass and others already. 

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On 9/8/2017 at 11:35 AM, ajbram said:

It's not flying the chute deep with no pole that I took issue with. We never lost time getting the pole up, and with the usual bear-away set on stbd. it's common to sail hot after the set and gain some course, then gybe to port so you are not sailing ddw. Setting a sym kite at hot angles with no foreguy is to me slower (through not filling the chute) than getting the pole up.

Again, I completely get flying the sym chute with no pole - once the kite is up. It's a skill everyone needs in order to properly gybe without collapsing the kite anyways. Just setting with no pole is not so easy. Do you round, then turn ddw, sheet both twings and sheets to pin down the corners as you hoist? Seems slower than a usual bear-away to me.

I hoist without a pole all the time (if i need to..). Gybesetting is a great time to do it - you can practically sambuka it... But if for whatever reason something is snarled with the pole or you know you're going to immediately gybe after the hoist, you can hoist without a pole without incident with a tiny bit of practice. The kite will get flying just fine. 

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