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pacice

Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

187 posts in this topic

What would a AC foiling monohull look like?

I mean one that can foil downwind and maybe upwind, not just foil assisted reaching?

How can you match watch with foils poking up to 10 metres out the side of the boat.

How fast will they tack or gybe?

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If it is going to be other than some half assed partial foiling shitter, I would expect much like a very large moth, with cyclists powering gyroscopes for stability.

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3 hours ago, wlrottge said:

All questions:  Like a turd....

 

Enquiring minds wonder, when your turds bother you with questions, what do they ask about?

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It will have one hull

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if Guillaume Verdier has a say (and I think he does) it wil look something like this

MONO60-EDMONDdeROTHSCHILD.jpg

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Anyone who thinks match racing in foiled monos will be easier / better than Multis are a fool.  If it has a canting keel, it will be a lot slower.  The foiling Multis turned bloody quickly.  If Monos are developing high boat speeds, they will also weigh up the cost of doing manoeuvres around the course and minimise manoeuvres to what is only really necessary.  The only way to bring back match racing that will please the purists is to slow the boats down..... So you really want to see that. Some may!

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What sprung to my mind was some kind of foiling version of the yacht Full Pelt, but bigger and foils which sit flush in the hull whilst slogging up wind.

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Will only be fast if it one step up from a foiling Moth - which means no stupid lead ballast - but a large crew - so how big, maybe 30 foot would be the maximum? Not going to happen is it?. If it is going to be a gutted Open 60 clone, then how boring is that? Totally fucked thinking?

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21 minutes ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Anyone who thinks match racing in foiled monos will be easier / better than Multis are a fool.  If it has a canting keel, it will be a lot slower.  The foiling Multis turned bloody quickly.  If Monos are developing high boat speeds, they will also weigh up the cost of doing manoeuvres around the course and minimise manoeuvres to what is only really necessary.  The only way to bring back match racing that will please the purists is to slow the boats down..... So you really want to see that. Some may!

I for one do.

You are right. If the relative cost for performing a manouvre is punitive then it will discourage match racing. 

Therefore if the only way to achieve this is a return to something akin to the old IACC class then so be it as far as I'm concerned. 

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Unless it will be a large moth-ish mono I don't see how that would work, anything that won't be able to do foiling tacks and/or gybes will be a failure IMHO.

Foiling assisted mono's would also be dangerous with that protruding foil.

Reading this quote I get the impression that LR never really considered multihulls to be "proper" sail boats:

Quote

"Emirates Team New Zealand have been consulting with a number of potential challengers and there is an overall desire to have a spectacular monohull yacht that will be exciting to match race, but also one that the public and sailors can relate to as a sail boat that really challenges a full crew of professional yachtsman around the race track."

 

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If you take a unballasted flat very light  but wide mono - and put a foil on each side (dual rudders too) the leeward foil and rudder gives lift - the windward gives downforce - they are also in the water - but flaps make them pulling the boat upright.  In light winds all 4 foils can help lift the boat  out of the water. 

 

Basically in a match-race it will be the same as with the cats - wingmast and 1 or two other sails.

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I understand the Volvo using foiling mono's, it just makes sense, on long windy legs where they can orient their course to the wind, waves and destination. But in a match race? It's going to be about the tech again instead of the race and the sailing. With a foil sticking out instead of down how fucking close can they get?
Light air mono foiling??? I understand the Mini's have been working on this and it is tough to stay on the foils.

Remember, going 20 to 30 in a sailboat is cool to sailors, but most could give a shit. Are they going to concentrate on the sailing or a media/tele event?? We need Exciting Racing and Sponsors. We need boats the the average person can relate to so they think they can sail too.

How long will the legs be and how much wind will be needed and what will be the limits of the course and wind range be?

How many dolts will be needed to pump the hydraulic rams for the foils?

Can we think of other stupid shit to raise the cost of the boats and limit the field again??

 

 

 

 

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I'd venture to guess that there will be no manually powered hydraulics. It takes a pretty small battery to yield the equivalent energy of 3-4 pro grinders and it costs a lot less. Recovering 50% of the energy to cant isn't that difficult if your timing through the tack/gybe is good and incentives optimal turns, which will be an interesting challenge.

Add soft wings and get the crew size down to 3-4 and there's actually a chance it might develop some solutions that are applicable to club racing, which is something that foiling cats will never do based on storage footprint alone.

 

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13 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

I'd venture to guess that there will be no manually powered hydraulics. It takes a pretty small battery to yield the equivalent energy of 3-4 pro grinders and it costs a lot less. Recovering 50% of the energy to cant isn't that difficult if your timing through the tack/gybe is good and incentives optimal turns, which will be an interesting challenge.

Add soft wings and get the crew size down to 3-4 and there's actually a chance it might develop some solutions that are applicable to club racing, which is something that foiling cats will never do based on storage footprint alone.

 

When you say soft wings, do you mean something like Camber induced or RAF type sails? I have not seen any soft foils on a big mono.
When I was able and windsurfed in the 80's while making sails, I made many of these for my board.
I really liked the RAF cut, very light weight and absolutely smooth on the leeward side like and airplane wing.
Camber induced with the larger sock looked good but I think the RAF was faster.

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The boats will look like this:

8851862192158_celum_116513_320Wx280H.jpg

 

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I asked several ETNZ team members after the win what the next boat would look like. They pretty much came out and said it would be a foiling mono. Fully foiling for that matter. Minimum 60ft, soft sails with at least 10 sailors actually sailing, not cycloring. I asked the question, how could you tack/gybe and stay on the foils or even stay fast if you had to swing a canting keel around the place??? 

The answer surprised me. "If we're smart, we could do it without the lead!"

ie. No canting keel!

What would this look like?...

Maybe in ten years we will all need double wide births for our triangle shaped monos? Who knows...

This is what we are going to see I think. And it is going to surprise the sailing world. After all, they want to push the sport forward, and by doing it in a mono, it might actually trickle down to the rest of us real world sailors. 

Given the designers working on this concept and some of their recent work, I have total faith that it is going to be an amazing class. 

I have a feeling it's going to be a monster! Can't wait to geek out on the details with all you shmucks!

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2 hours ago, Costro said:

After all, they want to push the sport forward, and by doing it in a mono, it might actually trickle down to the rest of us real world sailors. 

 

..so multis isnt "real world" ?    

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And nothing trickled down into the foiling multi world???

Some of us sail foiling Multis..... I guess we are not real world sailors.

Nothing but arrogance!

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Canting keels and foils on monos are attempts to get monos sailing as fast as Multis that are cheaper and have less technology invested.

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I must admit I like the idea of a foiling monohull if it ticks off the following:

1. They will sail in more breeze or any breeze up to 30 Knots

2. It drives mono development so one day I can buy a cruising mono that actually goes fast

3. It brings a new level of expectation as we are starting all over again

4. It drives ocean races to another level with the technology that comes with development

5. The list goes on

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Better be 120ft+ to give it some sorta spectacle. Who wants to see another 60ft mono ...unless of course 15 are hanging out on traps

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15 hours ago, Tony-F18 said:

Reading this quote I get the impression that LR never really considered multihulls to be "proper" sail boats:

That would be dumb. I thought proper sail boats were boats that used a sail and the wind as opposed to a motor and diesel? Hence the sport and hobby - Sailing.

Therefore, how many hulls your sail boat has should be irrelevant.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Costro said:

I asked several ETNZ team members after the win what the next boat would look like. They pretty much came out and said it would be a foiling mono. Fully foiling for that matter. Minimum 60ft, soft sails with at least 10 sailors actually sailing, not cycloring. I asked the question, how could you tack/gybe and stay on the foils or even stay fast if you had to swing a canting keel around the place??? 

The answer surprised me. "If we're smart, we could do it without the lead!"

ie. No canting keel!

What would this look like?...

Maybe in ten years we will all need double wide births for our triangle shaped monos? Who knows...

This is what we are going to see I think. And it is going to surprise the sailing world. After all, they want to push the sport forward, and by doing it in a mono, it might actually trickle down to the rest of us real world sailors. 

Given the designers working on this concept and some of their recent work, I have total faith that it is going to be an amazing class. 

I have a feeling it's going to be a monster! Can't wait to geek out on the details with all you shmucks!

I'd trust what this fella has to say.

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if the 2020 cup is held anywhere except wellington in July, then foiling monohulls will be a joke unless they define a reaching only course.

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8 hours ago, Kirwan said:

The boats will look like this:

8851862192158_celum_116513_320Wx280H.jpg

 

Except that the transom will be boxed square rather than elliptical. Much less drag.

Nothing at all wrong with the appendages or the scow bow though. ;)

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18 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

if the 2020 cup is held anywhere except wellington in July, then foiling monohulls will be a joke unless they define a reaching only course.

Pegasus Bay, might work well with the legendary nor'wester, no? ;)

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5 hours ago, SeaGul said:

..so multis isnt "real world" ?    

To be fair, it's always been "fringe", no? Even a bit "alternative".

A bit like vegetarianism.  ;)

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2 hours ago, mrdobalina said:

I'd trust what this fella has to say.

If they get rid of the lead, it would have to look something like an evolution of the super fouler imo

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29 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Pegasus Bay, might work well with the legendary nor'wester, no? ;)

Nah. Wellington works much better IMO. From a purely objective stand point you understand. 

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5 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

 

And nothing trickled down into the foiling multi world???

Some of us sail foiling Multis..... I guess we are not real world sailors.

Nothing but arrogance!

Here we go. A roadmap for the process.

 

stages-of-grief.gif

 

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Point is - there will be no slow motion match-racing in foiling monos either - it will be just the same as with multis - just more out of real world boat and a little slower.

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Who wants slow motion match racing? High speed match racing is far more relevant in 2017/2021. 

The difference will be the sailors will be sailing instead of pumping oil. Trimming sails, hoisting/dropping sails. Crew work that real people can identify with. 

I enjoyed the super fast cats, don't get me wrong. But having Olympic level sailing talent reduced to power generators was an embarrassment for the sport. 

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8 minutes ago, Costro said:

Who wants slow motion match racing? High speed match racing is far more relevant in 2017/2021. 

The difference will be the sailors will be sailing instead of pumping oil. Trimming sails, hoisting/dropping sails. Crew work that real people can identify with. 

I enjoyed the super fast cats, don't get me wrong. But having Olympic level sailing talent reduced to power generators was an embarrassment for the sport. 

Its too soon to tell but it does look as if they are bringing the AC format back to what was once the core audience that of actual sailors. 

Going after the X-Games crowd didn't pan out so after a few editions in boats that sailors can relate to in a more direct way they may get back a good bit of what they lost over the past few AC's. It would be nice to be able actually find someone to talk about the Cup at a actual yacht club for a change :) 

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If it (the thing) is going to be around 50-60 foot it will have to be wide for the foils and stability to work. How wide? Multihull wide. Like 25-30 feet. Or if narrower, then outriggers with foils hanging off the ends. And latest mini 6.5's bow. To stop arsing nose over down.This will be a monster monohull that no one has ever seen before? More extreme than the latest 6.5s by a long way. All good. But the old brigade clamouring for their old ballasted shitters are not going to be happy?

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If they can do it without (much) lead & a motor/battery pack I guess thats OK.

Still would like to see relatively conventional multis though.

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31 minutes ago, Costro said:

Who wants slow motion match racing? High speed match racing is far more relevant in 2017/2021. 

The difference will be the sailors will be sailing instead of pumping oil. Trimming sails, hoisting/dropping sails. Crew work that real people can identify with. 

I enjoyed the super fast cats, don't get me wrong. But having Olympic level sailing talent reduced to power generators was an embarrassment for the sport. 

Trimming sail with a power distributed winch that is - same as on a multi. Hoist, dropping sail - change sails - really ?? That is in slow-motion sailing - deplacement boats - never will happend on a foiling mono. 

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22 minutes ago, maxmini said:

Its too soon to tell but it does look as if they are bringing the AC format back to what was once the core audience that of actual sailors. 

Going after the X-Games crowd didn't pan out so after a few editions in boats that sailors can relate to in a more direct way they may get back a good bit of what they lost over the past few AC's. It would be nice to be able actually find someone to talk about the Cup at a actual yacht club for a change :) 

"actual sailors" - what is that?  ... reminds me of the right-winger definition of "real-americans" as pickup-drivers with guns.

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52 minutes ago, Costro said:

The difference will be the sailors will be sailing instead of pumping oil. Trimming sails, hoisting/dropping sails. Crew work that real people can identify with. 

I enjoyed the super fast cats, don't get me wrong. But having Olympic level sailing talent reduced to power generators was an embarrassment for the sport. 

Foiling Multis can be designed to operate without stored power just the same as monos. And guess what,..... they actually trim sails on multihulls as well.

Do you enjoy watching a team of grinders grinding away and sitting on the rail?

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43 minutes ago, maxmini said:

Its too soon to tell but it does look as if they are bringing the AC format back to what was once the core audience that of actual sailors. 

Going after the X-Games crowd didn't pan out so after a few editions in boats that sailors can relate to in a more direct way they may get back a good bit of what they lost over the past few AC's. It would be nice to be able actually find someone to talk about the Cup at a actual yacht club for a change :) 

You are hanging out at the wrong (possibly old mans) yacht club.  Plenty of AC talk at other clubs.

There is also more to sailing than lead slugs.  Plenty of high performance Foiling and non foiling mono and multi sailors all who would have appreciated the boats in the last AC.

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1 hour ago, Costro said:

Trimming sails, hoisting/dropping sails. Crew work that real people can identify with. 

Well blow me a way..... it can be done on Multis

 

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i really hope it works but cant figure out how you can deal with the fundamental conflict between needing weight for righting moment and the lift/drag associated with foiling in a meaningful way.  A mono hull needs a canter for righting moment.   which is something like 9 tones of lead. 

 

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We don't know if the Monohull ETNZ & LR is really a foiling one. Ya all jumping too quickly here. Bertelli said "Monohull". He didn't say "Foiling Monohull".

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Hopefully it's like nothing we've ever seen before. At this same point before AC35 who would have guessed what the ETNZ boat would look like  ? Just be patient and enjoy the ride. It'll be fun. 

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Mono - if thats the only thing we know - and they are "designing the rule" in the future - they can make a rule that need lead or other ballast (water, people) - by limiting the number of foils and to restrict the type of foils - and moving flaps etc.

 

If the rule is mono - max 60ft - power must be produced while sailing - then it could be fun. 

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Maybe it will look like blue arrow

blue-arrow-photo-6-christian-fevrier.jpg

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3 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Mono - if thats the only thing we know - and they are "designing the rule" in the future - they can make a rule that need lead or other ballast (water, people) - by limiting the number of foils and to restrict the type of foils - and moving flaps etc.

 

If the rule is mono - max 60ft - power must be produced while sailing - then it could be fun. 

.... maybe 12 ft longer 

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18 hours ago, Costro said:

I asked several ETNZ team members after the win what the next boat would look like. They pretty much came out and said it would be a foiling mono. Fully foiling for that matter. Minimum 60ft, soft sails with at least 10 sailors actually sailing, not cycloring. I asked the question, how could you tack/gybe and stay on the foils or even stay fast if you had to swing a canting keel around the place??? 

The answer surprised me. "If we're smart, we could do it without the lead!"

ie. No canting keel!

What would this look like?...

Maybe in ten years we will all need double wide births for our triangle shaped monos? Who knows...

This is what we are going to see I think. And it is going to surprise the sailing world. After all, they want to push the sport forward, and by doing it in a mono, it might actually trickle down to the rest of us real world sailors. 

Given the designers working on this concept and some of their recent work, I have total faith that it is going to be an amazing class. 

I have a feeling it's going to be a monster! Can't wait to geek out on the details with all you shmucks!

 

I'm not hopeful at this point that we will have an event that will end up being worth a damn if they stick to the foiling mono idea, particularly if they base it off the Volvo/IMOCA concept of foiling mono.... they will suck for match racing and be a massive drop in performance and compelling viewing.  And since the sailing world seems bent on going one-design, lately, we may not see the development of a lot of new solutions to problems that will trickle down.  I would not be surprised if we end up seeing fewer challengers, and possibly major changes to the protocol mid-way, as they realize the racing is going to look like relative crap going around the cans. 

 

They would probably be better off screwing the foiling, if they are determined to go with monos, and go with non-adjustable foils/keel and an open box rule, and see what kind of awesome planing boats (giant skiffs) might develop, instead, with minimal need to have people committed to hamster power.  Again, I'm not optimistic. 

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14 hours ago, MrTroy said:

That would be dumb. I thought proper sail boats were boats that used a sail and the wind as opposed to a motor and diesel? Hence the sport and hobby - Sailing.

Therefore, how many hulls your sail boat has should be irrelevant.

 

 

What's funny is that the mono-purists seem to think it is OK so long as it has 1 hull, even if they have to resort to all kinds of appendages and/or a huge beam... basically a multi in concept but the one big hull (and, preferably, lead) makes it OK.  Basically, a wanna-be multi.  Super.

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Color me skeptical. 

I'm open to all ideas they may have and willing to be impressed, but some sort of ungainly 20 foot wide triangle shaped mono with wicked appendages, just to say it's a mono, seems ridiculous. And going back to narrow monos with fixed keels would be a bore. And relying on canting keels seems to defeat the possibility of fast-tacking match racing. 

Well, I'm not a naval architect. Just enjoy sailing and technology. So let's see what the experts come up with. 

Oh, and I dislike the idea of one-design for the AC. Set some parameters and let the designers design.

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24 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

What's funny is that the mono-purists seem to think it is OK so long as it has 1 hull, even if they have to resort to all kinds of appendages and/or a huge beam... basically a multi in concept but the one big hull (and, preferably, lead) makes it OK.  Basically, a wanna-be multi.  Super.

Word.

 

2 hours ago, PYC said:

Maybe it will look like blue arrow

I like that thinking B)

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i will reserve judgment for the actual design brief, but this idea seems poorly conceived on so many levels

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They might have to implement a foils retracted in the start box rule if they don't want too many cancelled races due to damage.

I can't imagine the leeward right of way boat caring too much if they happen to sheer off the at fault windward boats extended foil...

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It will be interesting to see how the box rules play out. I mean, if you were to stretch plastic wrap between the hull bottoms of a foiling catamaran ... shazam, it's now a monohull!

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15 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

We don't know if the Monohull ETNZ & LR is really a foiling one. Ya all jumping too quickly here. Bertelli said "Monohull". He didn't say "Foiling Monohull".

Apparently he did, and the decision was made as a condition of helping ETNZ with their last cup campaign:

Quote

Bertelli said the return to monohulls, albeit radical foiling ones, was a condition of Luna Rossa helping Team New Zealand win the last America's Cup in Bermuda.

Source: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/96708812/americas-cup-to-be-raced-in-foiling-monohulls-confirms-italian-challenger-of-record

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7 hours ago, mo fuzz said:

Multi-plast (think they were involved in the Alinghi DoG boat?) is making foils for Beneteau's new foiling cruising monohull.

Not a cruiser.

Figaro are a series of production racing short-handers.

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be happy to see the envelope stretched on these to 70 odd feet

mulleties.jpg

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^

What are those?

 

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35 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

^

What are those?

 

They are L class Mullet boats .. 22 feet long, internal ballast and a steel plate for the centre board.  They have been sailing since 1860 and racing as a class since 1902.  They race in winds up to 35 knots and go quite well in light air. There are other classes for different lengths but the 22 foot one is the most popular.

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On 12/9/2017 at 11:47 AM, Alinghi4ever said:

We don't know if the Monohull ETNZ & LR is really a foiling one. Ya all jumping too quickly here. Bertelli said "Monohull". He didn't say "Foiling Monohull".

 

Correct: he said whether it'll be a canter, or a foiler - or something else - will be decided "later"

 

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Amid all the crap here, I do like it when I learn something new.

Wait till you find out about their trophy

LiptonCupPCC_Web-761x1024.jpg

PCC_Lipton-Cup.jpg

 

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14 hours ago, wristwister said:

It will be interesting to see how the box rules play out. I mean, if you were to stretch plastic wrap between the hull bottoms of a foiling catamaran ... shazam, it's now a monohull!

That will be interesting.  What would some guesses be?  Flush foils when not being used to prevent banging foils while match racing, or shish kabobing an overboard sailor?  Canting keel, and if so, how is the canter powered?  How many boats can a team build?  I would think 2 is a must considering the unknowns surrounding foiling mono's and match racing.  Would restrictions be placed on teams in regards to number of sailing team members to prevent two boat testing (if they allow two boats) to reduce costs?  Sail restrictions?  I could go on.  Man, I haven't been this excited about an AC boat since......AC32 probably.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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So far the images have been of monos that can foil only when reaching in 20 plus knots of wind, not upwind/downwind in 8 to 10 knots.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

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For years, we have been hearing how most sailors sail monohulls, and because of the that, they can't relate to catamarans in the AC.  That most people are not interested because they can't put themselves in the shoes of those sailing the cats.  Anyone think that what they eventually come up with, if it is to be compelling at all, will end up being any more similar to what the EveryDayJoeSailor is familiar with than the foiling cats?  Either that, or we end up with boring as shit boats and crap racing where maneuvers are so heavily punished that the races end up being nothing more than drag races... but hey, they will be "sailors" on them.

It just seems as though the people making the decisions have lost their connection to what is important in exchange for some warped concept that they are going back to a more traditional boat/event.

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On 9/12/2017 at 11:58 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

Something like this, maybe? Also, an Italian site I saw hinted at sources who put the length at around 80'. edit: Gtran Here

 

Screen-shot-2016-01-14-at-13.40.52-541x4

more foilss

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4 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

For years, we have been hearing how most sailors sail monohulls, and because of the that, they can't relate to catamarans in the AC.  That most people are not interested because they can't put themselves in the shoes of those sailing the cats.  Anyone think that what they eventually come up with, if it is to be compelling at all, will end up being any more similar to what the EveryDayJoeSailor is familiar with than the foiling cats?  Either that, or we end up with boring as shit boats and crap racing where maneuvers are so heavily punished that the races end up being nothing more than drag races... but hey, they will be "sailors" on them.

It just seems as though the people making the decisions have lost their connection to what is important in exchange for some warped concept that they are going back to a more traditional boat/event.

I suspect that 'Tradition' suits the Prada brand better..

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12 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

more foilss

Do you suspect it's also a canter? Any insight on length?

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Nothing says tradition like foiling monohulls  I'm sure all the 10ksb sailors can totally relate to these:

 

IMG00026.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg

imoca-foil-from-scuttle-butt.jpg

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Just remember you monohull  jeans creamers that the Open 60s are absolute dogs to windward. And you monohullers in the past have always wanked on about pointing high to windward. Hypocrisy much?  Also their pendulum keels are extreme in terms of depth - so not great for onshore viewers (or the crew scraping bottom off East Coast bays) ... and they need a fucking stinker to swing them. Get real.

It appears that the asylum has been taken over by inmates. No, that is insulting to the inmates. We have another form of bonkers arch conservatism appearing here?

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21 hours ago, 167149 said:

be happy to see the envelope stretched on these to 70 odd feet

mulleties.jpg

With a crew of 45?

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10 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

For years, we have been hearing how most sailors sail monohulls, and because of the that, they can't relate to catamarans in the AC.  That most people are not interested because they can't put themselves in the shoes of those sailing the cats.  Anyone think that what they eventually come up with, if it is to be compelling at all, will end up being any more similar to what the EveryDayJoeSailor is familiar with than the foiling cats? 

Personally I see foiling monohulls anytime I go sailing. I don't see cats. The local cat scene is pretty much dead and buried, ancient history now. That won't be everyone's experience but it is the situation around here.

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Personally I see foiling monohulls anytime I go sailing. I don't see cats. The local cat scene is pretty much dead and buried, ancient history now. That won't be everyone's experience but it is the situation around here.

That's not really the point I was making, though, right?  My point is that what we are likely to see in a "foiling" mono is going to be no more similar, fundamentally, to what the regular mono guy sails than the foiling cats.  Both will be apparent wind monsters, HUGE effective beam, foiling, crazy systems, and the sailing itself will not be much at all like what most people do at their local yacht club, beach, or lake/river.  How many people actually do this kind of racing, match racing in such fast, complex machines (even scaled down).  Effectively, what these monos will be is a multi-hull dragging a keel.... So one has to ask "why?".  Tradition is the only answer that comes back.  Not to save money, not to be like what people sail in regular life, not to make the racing closer, not to get more teams involved.  Purely, it will be about some people's concept of tradition.  But that is laughable when the boats have half a dozen or more appendages to try and re-create multi-hull physics.

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ETNZ/LR if they wanted to go back to a Mono they should have stucked to this Boat

....which was proprosed by EB for the 2009 AC.

A foiling mono is crap IMO.

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GG, you like cats, others like monohulls. I don't know why you have to attach the label "tradition" to the latter. There's nothing new about cats. Nothing at all. The multihull boom was decades ago.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

GG, you like cats, others like monohulls. I don't know why you have to attach the label "tradition" to the latter. There's nothing new about cats. Nothing at all. The multihull boom was decades ago.

Seriously?  I am hardly the one who started using the term traditional .... that, or some other obvious synonym, has been the reasoning they are going away from the multi-hulls, including the puppet-master, 'er, CoR.

I am not so hard against monohulls, and in fact would prefer a wide open monohull to a OD multi-hull, but I'm not a fan of some silly idea of going back to what people can relate to with a "monohull" when all of the physics are basically attempting to relate a mono to a multi.  I also think the idea of a foiling mono is pretty absurd for this event, it is just never going to be as good as a multi, but with the drawbacks of a multi (or worse)... probably would have been better if they had just gone with a wide open monohull rule with max two apendages (including rudder), and make them go archimedean or planing, rather than trying to foil.

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3 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

ETNZ/LR if they wanted to go back to a Mono they should have stucked to this Boat

....which was proprosed by EB for the 2009 AC.

A foiling mono is crap IMO.

All I took from that video is how far CGI tech has come in the last 10 years

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On 14/09/2017 at 6:52 AM, GauchoGreg said:

For years, we have been hearing how most sailors sail monohulls, and because of the that, they can't relate to catamarans in the AC.  That most people are not interested because they can't put themselves in the shoes of those sailing the cats.  Anyone think that what they eventually come up with, if it is to be compelling at all, will end up being any more similar to what the EveryDayJoeSailor is familiar with than the foiling cats?  Either that, or we end up with boring as shit boats and crap racing where maneuvers are so heavily punished that the races end up being nothing more than drag races... but hey, they will be "sailors" on them.

It just seems as though the people making the decisions have lost their connection to what is important in exchange for some warped concept that they are going back to a more traditional boat/event.

Yep. Multi sailors are a small minority of sailors, but foiling sailors are a much smaller minority and despite the hype, the numbers are not growing very fast. The two biggest centres of foiling racers are reporting little or no recent growth. A radical foiling mono could well be the worst of most worlds; slower than the cats, harder to tack, and yet not something the typical sailor can relate to.

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13 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Personally I see foiling monohulls anytime I go sailing. I don't see cats. The local cat scene is pretty much dead and buried, ancient history now. That won't be everyone's experience but it is the situation around here.

I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 

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Aren't you comparing UK interest and coverage in an AC that had a UK entry to the interest and coverage in earlier ACs that had no such entry?

There were almost three decades with no UK entry in the AC. It's hardly surprising that interest increased when the UK got back into the event. Almost every similar event gets more general public interest when there's a much-hyped national representative. As an example, the general UK interest in the Tour de France has jumped since the arrival of Sky while US interest in the Tour de France has collapsed, but that's not due to any changes in the bikes - it's because now the Brits seem to have a chance of winning and the Americans don't.

Were you travelling in the same places and in the same way during the White Crusader challenge? If not, you just don't have a comparison that's remotely similar.
 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TimmyHate said:

All I took from that video is how far CGI tech has come in the last 10 years

I think if you wanted a mono and go back to Traditions that boat (AC 90) was a decent boat to use. I don't think it can be archieved by a foiling mono.

I'd say: Either stick to multis or to monos but please nothing in between. That's no good.

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Regarding canting keels. Eg the one on the melges40 has an electric motor, so you don't have to have a Diesel engine running all day. Apparently quite quick too? Foils are a question mark. No good course racing foiling mono hulls, apart from the moth, out there yet. Anyhow, I don't  think the boat will be anything like the minimaxis and tp52's. Too many good teams out there already.

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Seems like the money guys like big crews :wacko: as part of the rush, I suppose, so if you want tradition, why not a takeoff from log canoes- plaything of the rich, lots of sail area, preppies galore, no real advances in how many decades, those planks are awesome to look at, the handling demands are enormous, they capsize a lot.  Make 'em self righting somehow, get rid of wind limits, 30'-40' length, all the sail you can pile on in an air draft rule, box rule blah blah blah kind of like the New Zealand multihull rule, except 2 masts, make em as light as possible, that sort of thing.  No stored power, tackle only.  No keels.  Be kinda cool, but I think this crowd doesn't have the stones for it-

in other words go for insanely difficult boats

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45 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 

Question: What do you think? Which was more important? The Boat or the new Stadium Sailing? What brought AC 34 and to lesser extend AC 35 to life was the innovative Stadium Racing. Certainly during AC 34 the boats were presented to the entire San Francisco waterfront and people could come watching it for free. That had never been in Cup History before, add the Live Line Graphics for people watching on TV you had a pretty good package to sell. OTUSA/ACEA/ACRM should have stuck with Frisco as host City. Going to Bermuda was bad.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 

Agreed. 

If the TV's in the bar are showing some boats crawling slowly upwind, the channels will get changed to something else, anything else, that is less painfully boring - in a minute at most.

Foiling mono's can't sail upwind without very serious canting keels - which I doubt they will even have because of the engine requirements and the time it takes to swing them even when powered. Lead <> speed upwind.

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25 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Question: What do you think? Which was more important? The Boat or the new Stadium Sailing? What brought AC 34 and to lesser extend AC 35 to life was the innovative Stadium Racing. Certainly during AC 34 the boats were presented to the entire San Francisco waterfront and people could come watching it for free. That had never been in Cup History before, add the Live Line Graphics for people watching on TV you had a pretty good package to sell. OTUSA/ACEA/ACRM should have stuck with Frisco as host City. Going to Bermuda was bad.

The SF Cup was amazing, as was the earlier event with the ACC monohulls, although not quite as amazing.

Sitting in the stands when the AC 70's rounded the first mark and came right at us, foiling and getting bigger FAST, the whole crowd, maybe 10,000 people in those ticketed bleachers and lots more just on the shoreline, simultaneously said "Holy Shit!!!"   First and last time I've heard that from a sailing spectator crowd.  I've said it plenty of times during a leeward broach, but meant something else.

So.....Stadium sailing with fast, close boats.  With predictable winds.  Doesn't even have to be a lot of wind anymore.  You could maybe improve Bermuda with bleacher barges, but walking around the Marina Green meeting lots of people was just plain fun.

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