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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
pacice

Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

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1 hour ago, Go Left said:

So.....Stadium sailing with fast, close boats.  With predictable winds.  Doesn't even have to be a lot of wind anymore.  You could maybe improve Bermuda with bleacher barges, but walking around the Marina Green meeting lots of people was just plain fun.

Very nice but nobody paying the money wanted to pony up to repeat it. Not LE, not the other teams, not the city.

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Stadium racing is overrated. Send it back out into the Hauraki Gulf with Rangitoto as the backdrop, and put a big screen in the Viaduct for people who can't get on a boat so they can follow the live coverage. Technology has progressed so much, that watching on a big screen with a live audience can sometimes be a better experience than trying to squint the whole time, or holding binoculars up to see the action. 

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17 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Very nice but nobody paying the money wanted to pony up to repeat it. Not LE, not the other teams, not the city.

The SF Supes wanted to charge LE to hold the event there again, with reasonable arguments made for it. So they found a paying suitor instead.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 

 

2 hours ago, The Jay said:

Aren't you comparing UK interest and coverage in an AC that had a UK entry to the interest and coverage in earlier ACs that had no such entry?

There were almost three decades with no UK entry in the AC. It's hardly surprising that interest increased when the UK got back into the event. Almost every similar event gets more general public interest when there's a much-hyped national representative. As an example, the general UK interest in the Tour de France has jumped since the arrival of Sky while US interest in the Tour de France has collapsed, but that's not due to any changes in the bikes - it's because now the Brits seem to have a chance of winning and the Americans don't.

Were you travelling in the same places and in the same way during the White Crusader challenge? If not, you just don't have a comparison that's remotely similar.

I would support what TGBR says. In all the years I have sailed cats I have never had any interest from my non sailing friends in what I did. As for the America's Cup, the interest disappeared immediately after Freemantle. For the last 2 editions, I have had regular comments from non sailors. The interest was reignited. I knew the AC had changed when, during AC34, I was in a pub and they had the racing on the TV. Somebody changed channel to get the start of a Footie match and the reaction from everybody forced the channel to be changed back to the AC. That was a major WTF moment. I don't think we will see that with a monohull but I also am not sure whether public interest matters in the cup.

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5 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Stadium racing is overrated. Send it back out into the Hauraki Gulf with Rangitoto as the backdrop, and put a big screen in the Viaduct for people who can't get on a boat so they can follow the live coverage. Technology has progressed so much, that watching on a big screen with a live audience can sometimes be a better experience than trying to squint the whole time, or holding binoculars up to see the action. 

Yes. I attended two ACWS events and the experience was in most ways inferior to watching at home. I didn't bother going to the 2nd Portsmouth event and if I wouldn't, how many people would regularly attend?

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think this misses the issue. In terms of audience, is the cup for sailors or is it about everybody else? I have always believed that if you rely only on sailors, you will never get a big enough audience. Most sailors don't care about the cup, either before or during the multihull era. They might have casually looked at results when the match itself was going on, but that would never sustain the cup. What I did notice during the last 2 editions is that non sailing friends commented on the cup and the types of boat being used in a way that I have never seen before. Some of that was because of the increased coverage in the UK because of BAR and the tie to the royals etc, but I also noticed wherever I travelled. People who I do business with, who never mentioned sailing to me at all in the past even though they knew about my background suddenly were asking me about it. That is what converted me to multihulls even though I was so against them when Oracle first brought them in. I think Oracle did a shit job of getting the story out there, but we finally had a boat that captured the imagination of non sailors. I seriously doubt that can be achieved with a monohull. 

Great fricking post.  Oracle truly did do a shitty job of promoting the events, a shitty job of recognizing what was possible and what was not.  Had they been smart, they would have looked at where sailing already has the most rabid fan base and see what they could do to attract them to tuning into the AC, that being France.  They should have, in AC34, made sure that France had a good event to host, there, but instead they had an event in Portugal???  What the hell was that about?  They should have actually advertised the ACWS and the AC in print and TV media, and worked to get people tuned into the YT coverage, rather than putting all their eggs into trying to make it a commercial TV success.  They did a lot right when it came to the boats, to the amazing coverage and all the work Stan Honey did, but then..... yikes.

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ACS, we could go back and forth on anecdotes all day, like the techy 20-somethings I know who lived a couple of blocks from the SF racetrack and didn't hear a single mention from a single one of their friends about the SF AC during the entire event. The only bar I walked into that was showing the last AC indicated that it attracted mild interest from two people who didn't look as if they were ever going to go sailing or be in any advertiser's dream demographic, some interest from me, and zilch from another cat sailor I was with. No one else looked at all.

If the last couple of ACs had good ratings then where is the independent objective evidence? If they significantly improved participation in sailing then where is the independent objective evidence? If they significantly lifted participation in cat sailing then where is the independent objective evidence of a worldwide lift in cat sailing numbers?  There are significant cat classes where the numbers are in free-fall; numbers overall could be dropping more sharply than in earlier times.

One of the things that overlays all this is that Russell etc were massively far out in their claims of what putting cats in the AC was going to do in terms of number of entries, the interest from host cities, the ratings, etc. When they got their estimates so far out in those respects, I tend to be very sceptical about any other claim they make and any other claims about the benefits. 

What also cannot be ignored is that it is a recognised fact that more people are interested in a sporting event when their country is in with a chance to win it. It's an effect that, for example, the IOC refers to in their Olympic reports and is well documented by the Olympic ratings.

The last two ACs have seen more significant British input than any since about 1983, and more significant Australian input since One Australia sank. That factor simply cannot logically be ignored when people talk of anecdotal interest from such countries. 

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How about lasers helmed by the head of the individual syndicates?

or RS 700's?

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

Stadium racing is overrated.

After Clean talking it up in one of the threads during the cup I tried to watch some of the Extreme Sailing stuff, it was every bit as bad as ACWS.

Stupid venues with incredibly unstable wind making it a lottery, utterly ludicrously short courses where the boats spent at least 80% of the time down-speed due to manoeuvres.

Even at Barcelona where they had the whole Med to lay courses they still set 100m courses just off the beach.

 

Was just an utterly utterly boring non-event :unsure:

 

Quote

Sitting in the stands when the AC 70's rounded the first mark and came right at us, foiling and getting bigger FAST, the whole crowd, maybe 10,000 people in those ticketed bleachers and lots more just on the shoreline, simultaneously said "Holy Shit!!!"

I was pretty sceptical of the SF venue but it did look actually very spectacular, but there aren't many venues where a long leg can be set like that since very few places have that wind direction stability.

 

Maybe such 'arena racing' would work if they actually carefully chose the venues to be places with stable wind direction allowing a great course like SF but they don't, they go for where the sponsor $$$ tells them to go, then wonder why nobody watches.

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6 hours ago, Amati said:

Log canoes just LOOK like America's Cup boats, and even as Paleolithic as they are, kind of fast.

and they capsize a lot!  Did I mention that.  

Really lucious boat porn- everybody gets how insane hiking planks are couple with huge amounts of sail just think of these babies done in unobtainium!  And with bleeding edge naval architecture.

Of course the link died- I'll try again

there

IMG_0323.JPG

Ja imagine that in 25 knts and waves!

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One recent observation (or at recent reutterance) that I keep coming back to: for sailing to be interesting it has to be held where there is (a lot of) wind

Freeman the had it. SF had it. But for 1 day Bermuda was a wash out.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ Why not go follow Lasers in the Olympics instead? 

I do. I've enjoyed watching Olympics way more than I've enjoyed watching anything coming of the AC in the LE era. Most of all I enjoyed watching the women's match racing at Weymouth.

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2 hours ago, hoom said:

After Clean talking it up in one of the threads during the cup I tried to watch some of the Extreme Sailing stuff, it was every bit as bad as ACWS.

Stupid venues with incredibly unstable wind making it a lottery, utterly ludicrously short courses where the boats spent at least 80% of the time down-speed due to manoeuvres.

Even at Barcelona where they had the whole Med to lay courses they still set 100m courses just off the beach.

Was just an utterly utterly boring non-event :unsure:

 

It may not be your cup of tea, but the Extreme Sailing Series has never claimed to be anything other than stadium sailing. There are so many different types of racing out there, that everyone has an option. I am just pointing out that it is what it advertises, and obviously not what you like. I personally agree that Barcelona should have had slightly longer races, but going over a mile is not what the ESS is about.  There are other circuits for that, you just can't always watch them from the shore.

Interestingly enough I do disagree with the lottery comment, if that was true then the best teams would not always win. I think that is where the ACWS went wrong, they went for short courses and city venues (therefore more likely to have extreme shifts) but they did not run enough races to take the lottery out of the results. With over 15 short races over a weekend this is eliminated from the ESS results, I think if ACWS had even done 4 races a day (shock horror there would have been over 3 hours of racing...) then the results would have evened out. That said, I am not sure anyone wanted to sit through 3 hours of NY ACWS!

Interesting comment about the boats being down speed 80% of the time.  Actually is that not what we would actually look for in a good match race? Not that this is relevant to ESS in any way, just an observation. Funny isn't it how some things are important in one arena and less so in another.

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The great thing about sailing is that there are so many variations, and there is something for everyone. Young to the old salty seadogs.

My kids never showed any interest in sailing until they saw stadium racing - now they have both learnt to sail and all they wwant to do is be old enough to learn how to foil.

If stadium sailing helps to open up the sport and drive participation for future generations - then that can only be a good thing.

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12 hours ago, sclarke said:

Stadium racing is overrated. Send it back out into the Hauraki Gulf with Rangitoto as the backdrop, and put a big screen in the Viaduct for people who can't get on a boat so they can follow the live coverage. Technology has progressed so much, that watching on a big screen with a live audience can sometimes be a better experience than trying to squint the whole time, or holding binoculars up to see the action. 

I mentioned this in a post about the live experience in Bermuda: the race village was great but not because it made directly watching the races so wonderful. To the extent that you wanted to actually follow the race you needed to watch it on the massive screens.  

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Funny, professional Windsurfing tried extreme stadium racing - basically a big pool with giant fans all over the place surrounded by seating.  Lasted a year?  Don't know why it folded, crowds were there for a while at least-

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9 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

I mentioned this in a post about the live experience in Bermuda: the race village was great but not because it made directly watching the races so wonderful. To the extent that you wanted to actually follow the race you needed to watch it on the massive screens.  

..like golf, horse racing, formula one, etc ... Screens help - thats modern day sport & entertainment, its a 360 experience.

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8 hours ago, jorge said:

Ja imagine that in 25 knts and waves!

Tactical reefing!  Lots of action!  Spray in the air!  Wave piercing bows!

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8 hours ago, rgeek said:

One recent observation (or at recent reutterance) that I keep coming back to: for sailing to be interesting it has to be held where there is (a lot of) wind

Freeman the had it. SF had it. But for 1 day Bermuda was a wash out.

Not if so much sail area is allowed that things can break or boats can go over in 5 knots of winds-  maybe allow a pit stop for sails and equipment during a race- think of that!  Docking part of a sailboat race!  Don't allow fenders!  Stuff on the dock (like spars even!) decided before the race, and guarded under lock and key!  Throwing stuff off the boat and loading on by the sailing crew while their opponents sail off into the horizon!  Would the new stuff allow a pass????  This way changes in sailing conditions would be a racing dynamic.  Log canoes are small, if kept skinny, so they can't carry a lot of extra stuff.  Weather forecasting would be interesting with longer races.  Maybe.  More rock stars in so many areas-

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Do people who buy Louis Vuitton hand bags buy foiling beach cats ( or their boyfriends) nope.

So if no sponsor interested why would TV/media be interested?

Lots of expensive cars/watches/handbags in the carpark of a J class regatta

foiling mono is the compromise

 

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4 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Do people who buy Louis Vuitton hand bags buy foiling beach cats ( or their boyfriends) nope.

So if no sponsor interested why would TV/media be interested?

Lots of expensive cars/watches/handbags in the carpark of a J class regatta

foiling mono is the compromise

 

I can't make head nor tail of your logic.
- No, and Rolex owners don't buy Formula One cars either.
- But sponsors were interested with AC35 ... as were TV & media who paid for the rights
- And lots of expensive Superyachts moored in Bermuda harbours

No compromise required on the basis of your raised points


 

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2 minutes ago, MischiefBDA said:

I can't make head nor tail of your logic.
- No, and Rolex owners don't buy Formula One cars either.
- But sponsors were interested with AC35 ... as were TV & media who paid for the rights
- And lots of expensive Superyachts moored in Bermuda harbours

No compromise required on the basis of your raised points

 


 

who funded the kiwi's, and what do they sell, DOH!

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YES, the Italians like to sell expensive goods to wealthy people, who couldnt give a Sh1t about beach cats.

They had zero interest in the last cup, so just maybe they like mono's?

lets just divide up the vessel ownership pie with a few generalisations, people who own and sail multis are poor.

Did all those megayacht owners in Bermuda have foiling cats, maybe they do and I am wrong.

The media was a flop if you didnt notice ( the technology was very good though)

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1 minute ago, Sailabout said:

YES, the Italians like to sell expensive goods to wealthy people, who couldnt give a Sh1t about beach cats.

They had zero interest in the last cup, so just maybe they like mono's?

lets just divide up the vessel ownership pie with a few generalisations, people who own and sail multis are poor.

Did all those megayacht owners in Bermuda have foiling cats, maybe they do and I am wrong.

The media was a flop if you didnt notice ( the technology was very good though)

Jesus Christ, you don't have to buy a AC50 to enjoy yachting!! I don't buy race horses and most people don't buy formula one cars. Doesn't mean that I don't want to watch races. 
By "the media was a flop" I assume what you actually mean "it was behind a paywall" and that Larry didn't give it to you for free?

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In the UK the coverage was on BT Sport which has subscribers in only one in 5 of UK households. If you are a company trying to get eyeballs by sponsoring an AC team, that sounds like a flop to me.

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

In the UK the coverage was on BT Sport which has subscribers in only one in 5 of UK households. If you are a company trying to get eyeballs by sponsoring an AC team, that sounds like a flop to me.

...and highlights on BBC.
It was just like any other sport though ... rights holder requests bids and highest bidder wins. BBC didn't bid higher than BT Sport.
Do you think that LE should have paid for all the Broadcast so the Brits could watch it free?
or Do you think that the BBC should have used more of the taxpayers money to outbid BT Sport?
Land Rover seem happy with exposure - they are staying with the team for another cycle.
I haven't seen any high level sponsors pull out - there maybe some but I haven't seen any yet - which points to them being happy with eyeballs & coverage.

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22 hours ago, The Jay said:

Aren't you comparing UK interest and coverage in an AC that had a UK entry to the interest and coverage in earlier ACs that had no such entry?

There were almost three decades with no UK entry in the AC. It's hardly surprising that interest increased when the UK got back into the event. Almost every similar event gets more general public interest when there's a much-hyped national representative. As an example, the general UK interest in the Tour de France has jumped since the arrival of Sky while US interest in the Tour de France has collapsed, but that's not due to any changes in the bikes - it's because now the Brits seem to have a chance of winning and the Americans don't.

Were you travelling in the same places and in the same way during the White Crusader challenge? If not, you just don't have a comparison that's remotely similar.
 

 

 

 

 

I can back up his comments in the U.S. as well. I went to my local watering hole to watch some of the early challenger series. I asked the bartender to flip one TV in the corner to the AC so I could watch it. By the time that day's racing was over, every TV was watching the AC by customer requests. It was that way through the whole Cup. The flying multis fascinated non-sailors. The problem is getting non-sailors to watch the first ten minutes. After that, they were into it. 

Having said that, I still want a non-foiling mono. 

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I did a pretty detailed analysis many years ago of the idea of a 60' monofoiler with 90 degree canting keel and sliding athwartship ballast using a bi-foiler foil arrangement:

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/60-or-20-ocean-racing-monofoiler-design-discussion.15143/page-12#post-428215

Sketch by N Flutter of his take on my concept:

 

Monofoiler-60' by NFlutter.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

I did a pretty detailed analysis many years ago of the idea of a 60' monofoiler with 90 degree canting keel and sliding athwartship ballast using a bi-foiler foil arrangement:

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/60-or-20-ocean-racing-monofoiler-design-discussion.15143/page-12#post-428215

Sketch by N Flutter of his take on my concept:

 

Monofoiler-60' by NFlutter.jpg

Oh fuck Doug!

PLEASE PLEASE tell me we aren't going to have to put up with your next busted arse concept for the next 3 or 4 years are we?

Opinions are welcome, even wrong ones. But for the love of doG, once you are proven WRONG - give up ok?

The mythical "All Purpose Boards" were just that - a myth.

I've generally resisted the temptation to "beat down" on you despite of your absurd persistence in the face of overwhelming facts.

But if you start that shit on this cycle I am going to just start body slamming you.

I suggest if you can't resist the temptation that you at least start your own thread and post all your dribble there.

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I reckon a giant Quant, grinders putting the foils in the water so a tactical decision to use them or not and canting keel as well.

 

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1 hour ago, ezyb said:

Oh god, the PTSD is kicking in.

LOL! At least with normal PTSD there is some respite from the actual cause of it.

What did we get? 3 months max!

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6 hours ago, MischiefBDA said:


Do you think that LE should have paid for all the Broadcast so the Brits could watch it free?
 

Nope. I think it should have been live on YouTube, same as AC34.

Don't like free? How about allowing us to buy a subscription to the AC app with streaming coverage. In most countries, you could not do that.

Land Rover seem happy with exposure - they are staying with the team for another cycle.

We don't yet know whether Land Rover or BAR is back in AC36.

 

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7 hours ago, jaysper said:

Oh fuck Doug!

PLEASE PLEASE tell me we aren't going to have to put up with your next busted arse concept for the next 3 or 4 years are we?

Opinions are welcome, even wrong ones. But for the love of doG, once you are proven WRONG - give up ok?

The mythical "All Purpose Boards" were just that - a myth.

I've generally resisted the temptation to "beat down" on you despite of your absurd persistence in the face of overwhelming facts.

But if you start that shit on this cycle I am going to just start body slamming you.

I suggest if you can't resist the temptation that you at least start your own thread and post all your dribble there.

but but but, its got a foil, ive got a foil weve all got a foil.............

5d-tinfoil-hat-.jpg

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

We don't yet know whether Land Rover or BAR is back in AC36.

We can only go on information provided by existing BAR press statements
"Land Rover BAR committed to Challenge in the 36th America’s Cup with funding secured for the next campaign"  
http://land-rover-bar.americascup.com/en/news/403_LAND-ROVER-BAR-will-continue-the-journey-to-Bring-the-Cup-Home.html

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I hadn't seen that. Fair enough. Doesn't correlate with various predictions on SAAC that LRBAR may exit given the switch to monos. Of course those may be full of shit.

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30 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

I hadn't seen that. Fair enough. Doesn't correlate with various predictions on SAAC that LRBAR may exit given the switch to monos. Of course those may be full of shit.

Given that Benny announced at his last AC35 press conference that Land Rover had committed to AC36 regardless of the type of boat, then yup - full o shit is correct.

I do wonder what Bennys role will be. He might step off the boat.

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Onto whatever is left of the dock? 8)

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16 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Onto whatever is left of the dock? 8)

LOL! I think he will be charged an additional fee for AC36 to cover any damages to the local infrastructure :D

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OK so he hit a dock. And another boat. At least he didn't capsize. What kind of amateurs would do that?

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9 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

OK so he hit a dock. And another boat. At least he didn't capsize. What kind of amateurs would do that?

I don't think etnz are alone with that one, but at least the had an excuse. They were nervous about Benny trying to "board" them :D

Actually I had managed to forget his two red mist incidents! It was lucky nobody was killed with the love tap on Japan.

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41 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I don't think etnz are alone with that one, but at least the had an excuse. They were nervous about Benny trying to "board" them :D

Actually I had managed to forget his two red mist incidents! It was lucky nobody was killed with the love tap on Japan.

3 ... The red mist descended on shore after the dock incident. Apparently the warranty on his locker was rendered null and void :) 

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59 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

You don't want to make him angry. It is known.

Yeah, it's not a great attribute is it?

Probably worse that the shit that comes out of the ginger convicts mouth?

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I'm not sure the single minded focus it takes to get to the top in a sport tends to make for a well-rounded human being. BA's book is exquisitely dull.

But the Ainslie quote about making him angry is a comment he made against himself, at least it indicates some humour and self-awareness. As for Spithill, some claim to detect humour but I just see the kind of kid at school who laughs as he torments a weaker child. No I won't be buying his auto-bio.

 

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53 minutes ago, MischiefBDA said:

This

The same could be said of Peter Burling as he does come across as somewhat odd.

But in contrast, the likes of Tuke seem fairly well balanced.

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12 hours ago, dogwatch said:

OK so he hit a dock. And another boat. At least he didn't capsize. What kind of amateurs would do that?

Winners! :D

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On 9/15/2017 at 5:57 PM, jaysper said:

Oh fuck Doug!

PLEASE PLEASE tell me we aren't going to have to put up with your next busted arse concept for the next 3 or 4 years are we?

Opinions are welcome, even wrong ones. But for the love of doG, once you are proven WRONG - give up ok?

The mythical "All Purpose Boards" were just that - a myth.

I've generally resisted the temptation to "beat down" on you despite of your absurd persistence in the face of overwhelming facts.

But if you start that shit on this cycle I am going to just start body slamming you.

I suggest if you can't resist the temptation that you at least start your own thread and post all your dribble there.

You're so full of shit!

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2 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

You're so full of shit!

Bwahaha! So says the idiot that probably still believes etnz won with a single set of all purpose boards!

Have opinions Doug. Just don't try to bullshit us long past the point where you are proven WRONG.

That is not persistence, it is dogmatic stupidity. 

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4 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Bwahaha! So says the idiot that probably still believes etnz won with a single set of all purpose boards!

Have opinions Doug. Just don't try to bullshit us long past the point where you are proven WRONG.

That is not persistence, it is dogmatic stupidity. 

Something you know all too well!

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19 hours ago, dogwatch said:

OK so he hit a dock. And another boat. At least he didn't capsize. What kind of amateurs would do that?

Ruh roh :D

2F49788D00000578-0-image-a-26_1449856995054.jpg

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4 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Something you know all too well!

#SometimesPeopleAreSenileWithoutKno wing It

I suggest you start a poll Dougie boy asking how many here are on board with your all purpose boards. *crickets*

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On 9/15/2017 at 7:34 AM, MischiefBDA said:

Jesus Christ, you don't have to buy a AC50 to enjoy yachting!! I don't buy race horses and most people don't buy formula one cars. Doesn't mean that I don't want to watch races. 
By "the media was a flop" I assume what you actually mean "it was behind a paywall" and that Larry didn't give it to you for free?

This.  The insanity of that stupid app and entire viewing set up, where you had to have substantial intention to make an effort to both buy and set up your viewing (if at home) drove people off to the next thing to watch, leaving the viewing to only the rabid fans of the sport, which are incredibly few in number, and even many of us simply had not interest in making the effort due to all of the other stuff competing for our time.  With past ACs, I tuned in when ever I possibly could, including the ACWS events before they went behine paywall.  But this last year I hardly watched a minute, even though I love the boats, was interested in the teams, and had the technical ability to set up my viewing if I wanted to.  But I typically watch all of my sports on my schedule these days, rather than live, and they did not make it easy to do so.

To get people watching an event like the AC you need to do the following:

1)  Make it interesting - fascinating boats are huge, a good setting is huge, nationality helps, and good racing is big, and finally, good coverage......  OR did great on some of these, the boats were fascinating, setting was sometimes great, the racing was typically close and strategy was reasonable, and coverage was never better.  Certainly could have helped with some form of modest nationality requirements, but they also screwed the pooch by going to Bermuda, destroying any national interest in the US (and pissing off a lot of people that are nationalistic about their "home team".

2)  Make sure people know about it - OR did piss poor on this in both AC34 and AC35, with very little in the way of promotion relative to the investment they made in the boat development and coverage development.  At least in AC34, hosting in SFO created its own promotion to a significant degree, but lost that in AC35.

3)  Make sure people can easily tune in - again, OR sucked massively on this level, after initially doing better than ever before.  In AC34, they pioneered YT live streaming and made it amazingly easy to tune in to their incredible coverage, and the finals were equally easy to watch  But AC35 they went full-blown stupid and rendered the ACWS, LV, and  AC all irrelevant to the viewing public, and any interest that had been created by the Come Back in AC34 was shot to hell.

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On 9/15/2017 at 8:55 AM, dogwatch said:

In the UK the coverage was on BT Sport which has subscribers in only one in 5 of UK households. If you are a company trying to get eyeballs by sponsoring an AC team, that sounds like a flop to me.

Yep, again stupid of OR .... there are a shit-ton of people who will tune in and start watching, and keep watching, if you make it easy to do so.  But making people jump through hurdles, well, most people just won't do it.

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On 9/15/2017 at 8:33 PM, dogwatch said:

Nope. I think it should have been live on YouTube, same as AC34.

Don't like free? How about allowing us to buy a subscription to the AC app with streaming coverage. In most countries, you could not do that.

 

 

We don't yet know whether Land Rover or BAR is back in AC36.

 

Yep. 

When boxing started going PPV, it worked initially because there was already a huge fan base that were rabid fans of boxing.  Same might end up being said if a smaller network decided to pick a very popular sport up... a people might decide to buy into the network to be able to tune in.  But when a sport is trying to attract viewers and is not yet of commercially viable fan numbers, making it difficult for people who are not already fans to watch will effectively eliminate any chance of getting them to watch.  But even with a sport like boxing, you end up losing your viewership with PPV as you don't cultivate new viewers.

The best way to fund the AC seems pretty obvious, and I think we have seen it proven out over the past 10 years, is to make it ultimately easy for the most people to follow/watch, and allow sponsorships to fund the events/teams rather than directly charging the viewers.  It is the way sailing works as a professional sport in the only place where it actually functions as such, France.  Will commercially-funded teams ever out-compete the billionaire-funded teams???  I don't know, but I do not see where going the route of PPV, highest-bidder and restricted networks, and awkward apps do anything to make that situation better. 

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On 9/16/2017 at 7:15 PM, jaysper said:

Probably worse that the shit that comes out of the ginger convicts mouth?

Careful.

And there are two of them. Maybe the roles will be reversed next time around…

Source: https://www.foxsports.com.au/sailing/americas-cup/americas-cup-2017-oracle-team-usa-skipper-aussie-jimmy-spithill-unclear-on-future-after-defeat/news-story/e4b62740db7b44d0e45a5045403d5a22

SpithillEllisonSlingsby.jpeg

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On 9/15/2017 at 7:58 PM, Potter said:

It may not be your cup of tea, but the Extreme Sailing Series has never claimed to be anything other than stadium sailing. There are so many different types of racing out there, that everyone has an option. I am just pointing out that it is what it advertises, and obviously not what you like. I personally agree that Barcelona should have had slightly longer races, but going over a mile is not what the ESS is about.  There are other circuits for that, you just can't always watch them from the shore.

Interestingly enough I do disagree with the lottery comment, if that was true then the best teams would not always win. I think that is where the ACWS went wrong, they went for short courses and city venues (therefore more likely to have extreme shifts) but they did not run enough races to take the lottery out of the results. With over 15 short races over a weekend this is eliminated from the ESS results, I think if ACWS had even done 4 races a day (shock horror there would have been over 3 hours of racing...) then the results would have evened out. That said, I am not sure anyone wanted to sit through 3 hours of NY ACWS!

Interesting comment about the boats being down speed 80% of the time.  Actually is that not what we would actually look for in a good match race? Not that this is relevant to ESS in any way, just an observation. Funny isn't it how some things are important in one arena and less so in another.

Might as well have an Extreme Octogenerian Zimmer-Frame series or Extreme Optimist series for all the spectator wow-factor.

The point is its supposed to be interesting to watch.

Boats barely making it round a tiny course due to crappy wind & currents is incredibly fucking boring anti-spectacle.

Worse, it strengthens the popular opinion of Sailing as being boring & slow.

 

The races I saw had the bottom runners ahead as much as the top ones, indicating the best teams don't always win, they just statistically average better points.

A top team may make one slightly less crappy down-speed maneuvre & gain 10m putting them from 4th to 2nd in the last leg.

 

I'll take 5 decent length races with good wind any day over 15 shitty 5min lotteries.

 

In a good match race you go downspeed to force your opponent into a disadvantaged position.

In stupid arena racing you go downspeed because there is no wind or you have to turn in order to get around the tiny course.

Its a big fuckin difference.

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On 9/16/2017 at 7:46 AM, Doug Lord said:

I did a pretty detailed analysis many years ago of the idea of a 60' monofoiler with 90 degree canting keel and sliding athwartship ballast using a bi-foiler foil arrangement:

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/60-or-20-ocean-racing-monofoiler-design-discussion.15143/page-12#post-428215

Sketch by N Flutter of his take on my concept:

 

Monofoiler-60' by NFlutter.jpg

Not sure your posts amount to "detailed analysis".

I guess the sketch is based somewhat on "Stravaganza", which you posted about 12 months earlier. Not 60', not sliding "athawrtship", not foiling. Wonder how it went, didn't work too well for Q. Not much on the designer's web site, not sure a lake racer is a good starting point for Wellington, or anywhere with serious wind and waves.

stravaganza-800.jpg

white%20sheep%202.jpg

It's far more likely that the AC monohull foilers will look like the Volvo Ocean Race foiling 60s which are the right length, designed to foil and handle more than lake sailing. And should be reasonably well sorted by the time challengers are ready to build their boats for the AC itself.

Imagine a foiling Volvo 60 class in the Sydney to Hobart. I think they'll need to ban foiling in the harbour, or give them their own start 20 minutes after the rest, or however long it takes the canters to pass the first mark outside the heads (can't draw eyeballs of that prize). But that's for another thread—S2H 2019 perhaps.

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Huh.

Back in the mid-90s I used to sketch & make models of boats like that, kinda amazing to see those ideas put into reality.

Was so sure you could get a mono fast as a multi with something like that.

 

But eventually I realised there really isn't any point in doing it: A multihull gets there lighter, cheaper, with a more rational structure & rig -> why bother.

gAjhDqX.gif

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Wouldn't work with just a rotating canting keel-needs on-deck sliding ballast as well.

The scow model proved the physics of the combination of fixed keel and Trapeze Power Ballast System(on-deck sliding ballast) resulting in over twice the RM than from the keel alone(with the same total weight) AND self-righting:

Would definitely work on a fullsize boat:

Monofoiler-60' by NFlutter.jpg

Super  Scow with PBS 3 - Copy.JPG

Scow PBS 001.JPG

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On page 23 of the October/November Pro Boat(#169) there is an illustration of a "ring" canting keel exactly as depicted in N. Flutter's rough sketch inspired by my original 60' Moth concept 7 years ago but this time patented by Vlad Murnikov in 2013.

Murnikov says:

"Unlike a conventional canting keel there is no large opening in the hull, and structural integrity is fully preserved. And with a modest internal moter you can rotate the ring and place the keel at any angle you want: 90 degrees, 120 degrees, anywhere you like."

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Shush, doug. :P

Re the boats, I'm thinking 70 plus ft, a fixed bulb keel with a trailing edge flap that can be used to dial up additional righting moment, a retractable foil on each side with flaps and cant adjustment, dual rudders with adjustable T foils, and a rotating 25% wingmast on an otherwise conventional rig with a sprit.

Creating downward force using a keel flap rather than canting would mean no motor. There would still be the risk of capsize, so they'll probably need inflatable masthead recovery floats to prevent turtling. So basically a massive 18 with light ballasting and some tricky appendages to make up for the lack of crew on racks.


 

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A trailing edge flap may increase righting moment, but will it result in a measurable increase in speed? The boat's top speed will still be limited by the physics of pushing a hull through the water rather than over it. If the new boat can plane to windward, that will be a good sign. If it can plane, it can probably foil…

A mono that can plane to windward probably looks a lot like Commanche, so will also probably be slow in light winds (say anything below 15kn).

The semi–foiling IMOCA 60s don't do well in 10 to 15kn breeze, or in short races, or to windward; all facets of sailing than an AC boat should be excellent at. So if they can't fully foil at least half the time, they'll be slower than a similar sized canter given the short, windward/leeward courses now used in AC races. Safran claims their "Dali" foils only give about 2kn of extra speed, likely in small range of true wind angles—say beam reach to 30° below. If that's the only point of sail on which the new AC 36 boats foil, it will be a joke when compared to what we've seen of foliing catamarans in the last two Cups.

So the designers must think they can get the new boats foiling to windward, and probably foiling gybes. Perhaps Quant–style skimming foils are the go (super–ventilators)? With manual lift adjustment (flaps, AoA, …)?

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^ Increased righting moment means increased available HP, although it will come with a price - increased drag. But since the objective is just to get the boat to foil launch speed, I think the trade off would be worth it, and way preferable to more ballast (weight). I think it will be possible to foil to windward, but certainly none of it will be at speeds remotely approaching those of the AC50s, except perhaps at deep angles in heavy air. I'll be very surprised if the monos can pull off a foiling tack.

 

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14 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Increased righting moment means increased available HP, although it will come with a price - increased drag. But since the objective is just to get the boat to foil launch speed, I think the trade off would be worth it, and way preferable to more ballast (weight). I think it will be possible to foil to windward, but certainly none of it will be at speeds remotely approaching those of the AC50s, except perhaps at deep angles in heavy air. I'll be very surprised if the monos can pull off a foiling tack.

 

Hmmmm. We all said that about AC72's during AC34. The thing about new technology is that it ain't new for long.

Watch and learn, is my advice.

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^ Pretty much everyone I knew who watched OR's AC72 progress to foiling upwind during the regatta was of the opinion that 100% foiling - including foiling tacks - was going to happen in AC35, and it did. But there are no foiling monos of size that are remotely close to even the AC72s, performance wise, so foiling tacks at this point on a 70 foot mono are a pretty big ask.

 

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On 16/09/2017 at 7:12 PM, dogwatch said:

OK so he hit a dock. And another boat. At least he didn't capsize. What kind of amateurs would do that?

AC winners in cats. He left that vital component out of his preparation.

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26 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Pretty much everyone I knew who watched OR's AC72 progress to foiling upwind during the regatta was of the opinion that 100% foiling - including foiling tacks - was going to happen in AC35, and it did. But there are no foiling monos of size that are remotely close to even the AC72s, performance wise, so foiling tacks at this point on a 70 foot mono are a pretty big ask.

 

Somebody prolly said that about International Moths not so long ago too.

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Somebody prolly said that about International Moths not so long ago too.

Not for a long time, here's video of Rohan Veal was pulling off foiling tacks in 2007 and Dave Lister in 2009.

 

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15 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Shush, doug. :P

Re the boats, I'm thinking 70 plus ft, a fixed bulb keel with a trailing edge flap that can be used to dial up additional righting moment, a retractable foil on each side with flaps and cant adjustment, dual rudders with adjustable T foils, and a rotating 25% wingmast on an otherwise conventional rig with a sprit.

Creating downward force using a keel flap rather than canting would mean no motor. There would still be the risk of capsize, so they'll probably need inflatable masthead recovery floats to prevent turtling. So basically a massive 18 with light ballasting and some tricky appendages to make up for the lack of crew on racks.


 

And again, sounds very traditional and highly relatable to the regular sailor that can't relate to multi-hulls.  B)

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Yeah. I used to sail a low-rider Moth (badly, but still).  I know quite a few Mothists. A giant Moth sounds cool to me. Hey Gaucho, stop being such a fuddy-duddy and get with the programme.

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2 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Yeah. I used to sail a low-rider Moth (badly, but still).  I know quite a few Mothists. A giant Moth sounds cool to me. Hey Gaucho, stop being such a fuddy-duddy and get with the programme.

:D

Honestly, a WIDE OPEN box rule around a mono is preferable to an effectively OD multi (hull/platform, specifically).  But, not sure how that works, honestly, without it being effectively a multi, and then you have to ask "what is the point?".  Otherwise, we will be left with dramatic reduction in performance, and likely far less competitive racing, with big blowouts and less tactical interest and suspense (as a fan, this should be important).  We will probably end up with that, anyway.

 

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