pacice

Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

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12 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

That would be heeling/canting the wrong way Rob. That foil surfer is setting up for a gybe carving turn and would be heeled the other way when you consider cant. 

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Image result for foil windsurfing

Old school foils

Image result for foil windsurfing

So the top picture here, (couldn't seem to find the heart to [snip] her,

shows a windsurfer with moderate windward cant, much less than 45 i reckon.

Do you have any pictures of extreme windward cant on a windsurf board where the wing is starting to break surface as you mentioned?

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It really doesn't get any clearer than this - your question and my response. Are you dyslexic?

22 hours ago, barfy said:

how will a windsurfer get extreme cant on the foil?

 

12 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Via the same mechanism as the kites - heeling the board to windward. 

 

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are you fucking dumb as a sack of fucking hammers, show me a windsurfer with "extreme cant" like you were talking about. fucking windsurfers

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1 minute ago, barfy said:

So the top picture here, (couldn't seem to find the heart to [snip] her,

shows a windsurfer with moderate windward cant, much less than 45 i reckon.

Do you have any pictures of extreme windward cant on a windsurf board where the wing is starting to break surface as you mentioned?

Equipment is being developed for the new foiling discipline on the pro windsurfing tour right now. I doubt anyone is going to share pics of what they are working on. Including me.

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3 minutes ago, barfy said:

are you fucking dumb as a sack of fucking hammers, show me a windsurfer with "extreme cant" like you were talking about. fucking windsurfers

Sure - that's about 30 degrees, and the rail of the board is nowhere near the water surface:

Image result for foil windsurfing

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oh.

you should be in the AC50 circus of un-substantiated pipe dream forum then.

You always debate based on your supreme knowledge of everything that is too informed to share any solid facts.

par for your course.

your head is so big it's got it's own weather system

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2 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

Sure - That's about 30 degrees, and the rail of the board is nowhere near the water surface.:

Image result for foil windsurfing

and his ass is just about dragging due to the lever arm from the wishbone

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Just now, barfy said:

and his ass is just about dragging due to the lever arm from the wishbone

His ass is no closer to the water than the rail of the board. He's in such a steady state that he's able to remove one hand from the boom and drag it in the water.  Holy crap, dude.

LOL

 

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Foil racing in Sylt, October 2017. That windward heel (cant) is not an illusion - this guy won one of two races held, and wound up third for the event, competing against more experienced foilers who were riding flatter. As the kites have shown, the future  - especially upwind - is windward heel/cant.

SY17_sl_Jordy_flying_high.jpg

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where on the time line are things at regarding when any of these circus freak shows will be revealed to the unwashed masses? someone told me a theoretical rendering of one reminded him of a urinating dog, though from a design perspective, they will be marvels of modern machinery.

so when will a design be revealed?

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10 hours ago, surfsailor said:

 As the kites have shown, the future  - especially upwind - is windward heel/cant.

SY17_sl_Jordy_flying_high.jpg

are you simple, or am I missing something? of course foiling kites, moths, foiling sail boards, etc sail with weather cant.

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On 4/21/2018 at 9:56 PM, barfy said:

how will a windsurfer get extreme cant on the foil?

 

On 4/22/2018 at 8:12 AM, surfsailor said:

Via the same mechanism as the kites - heeling the board to windward. 

 

12 hours ago, barfy said:

yea,

you seem to have the wind direction a little bit confused surf sailor...that's draggin him downwind.

no matter

 

12 hours ago, surfsailor said:

No, you are confused - heeling to windward (as the kites are also doing in the pic you posted) increases lateral resistance, potentially past the null point (leeway angle less than zero). Heeling to leeward would drag the guy downwind.

The kites are achieving nearly 60 degrees of cant (windward heel) with the 110 cm foil masts.

 

12 hours ago, barfy said:

The picture that ROBG posted and you commented on has been pointed out to be canted downwind.

I have seen many times top racers in NZ with way over 45 degrees of windward cant, just couldn't find a picture.

Of course you know that I use pictures to debate with rather than asserting my opinion.

 

 

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4 hours ago, 3to1 said:

where on the time line are things at regarding when any of these circus freak shows will be revealed to the unwashed masses? someone told me a theoretical rendering of one reminded him of a urinating dog, though from a design perspective, they will be marvels of modern machinery.

so when will a design be revealed?

When the first boat is launched, so you have about 12 months to wait.

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5 hours ago, 3to1 said:

… or am I missing something? of course foiling kites, moths, foiling sail boards, etc sail with weather cant.

Sailboards have the rig heeled to windward, but from what I've seen, foiling boards seem to sail fairly flat, they aren't heeling the foil. It's nothing to do with needing the board to be flat to generate lift: if more lift is required, they can increase the AoA through weight redistribution (and likely sail trim).

I think sailing with the foil heeled takes more skill though, as the strut also starts to provide vertical lift so steering inputs change the lift, so more variables in the mix. It's an old trick on Moths when falling in to windward and you're already fully sheeted on, bearing away sharply helps to lift you back up.

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16 hours ago, sclarke said:

When the first boat is launched, so you have about 12 months to wait.

Ahhhh....and the non-surrogate that someone assured us was already in use - what about that as a 'design reveal'?

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On 4/22/2018 at 2:50 PM, hughw said:

Doesn't really affect the situation as to whether the foil in question is providing sideforce and/or direct lift.  Increased speed results in lower Cl for the required sideforce.  V^2 and all that.   Flaps are fine for relatively small changes in Cl and thus ride height, but will be slower reaction than that derived from rudder elevator effects.   Combinations of  both will be in order to deal with the various situations I reckon.   ...

I don't follow why you think flaps are slower than rudder elevator - I would think it's the other way around.  The Design Rule allows flaps up to 50% chord.  Each degree of deflection of a 50% chord flap produces a change in lift that is 80% of what you'd get with a one degree change in angle of attack of the entire surface, so flaps can produce a large amount of lift.  Flaps can be moved much faster than raking the rudder, and the elevator needs to change the pitch angle of the entire boat to change the lift on the main foil.  

For controlling ride height, I would use foil flap as the primary height control, and command elevator angle with flap command passed through a limited integrator.  This would use the flap for quick response and the elevator for long-term pitch trim.  The integral control of the elevator would drive the steady state flap deflection to zero, resulting in the foil being driven to the angle of attack needed for trimming at the desired flying height, while preserving the entire flap authority for short-term control.

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Hi,

These last few days, I have been traveleing to the sea, and noticed similar features on Hydrofoils from very different machines

1-A big all white Oman trimaran in Lorient harbour

2-A foiling windsurf

3-An A-Cat Exploder 

All of them seem to share common features:

1-A sharp leading edge 

2-A maximum thickness which seems a little aft

3-A Concave shape on both sides of the last 35% of the wing section leading to very low exit angle.

Main Difference: The bigger the boat the larger the camber and thickness (for structural reasons I guess).

We still have to wait to see what kind of foils the new AC boat will carry, in the meantime  that a few infos to chew for the addicts.

Cheers 

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

No information on it but it seems that the AC75 spin off has already begun ..

35564342_1044733452369856_67768581585234

Wow... Where did you see this photo?

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

No information on it but it seems that the AC75 spin off has already begun ..

 

Sure that's not the "ugliest boat" competition?

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I doubt that is a 'photo' but a rather clever composite render with some well done photo background/foregrounds. The transparency of the jib and main don't look quiet right. 

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Nice trick, making a translucent mast, a mainsail with no battens, and foils with no control surfaces.  Maybe it's 3d printed!

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Difficult to know how this artwork reflects reality but the boat does not look fast, mainly with the big gennaker.

Agreed - it's not moving at all in the picture... :rolleyes:

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10 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

No information on it but it seems that the AC75 spin off has already begun ..

35564342_1044733452369856_67768581585234

Time to come clean, Terry.  Image origin please?

This looks very "wooden" and multiple critics here have picked up on good points.

Web search for FlYacht comes up empty.

At least though, someone deserves credits for some pretty nice PhotoShop skills.

 

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31 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Time to come clean, Terry.  Image origin please?

This looks very "wooden" and multiple critics here have picked up on good points.

Web search for FlYacht comes up empty.

At least though, someone deserves credits for some pretty nice PhotoShop skills.

 

I found the image on Facebook and extracted the url and the photo was all that would show.  The beginning of the url does not do anything https://scontent.fakl2-1.fna.fbcdn.net but it does seem to be a fake site .. :)

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Briand - low budget???!!

READY FOR TAKE-OFF
With a 90° righting moment, much like a Mini Transat, the Flyacht is designed to be handled by a two-man crew with the possibility of ‘hiking’ (moving the body weight as far to windward as possible to decrease heeling when sailing upwind) before take-off speed is reached in around 10 knots of true wind speed. 
The rig consists of a soft wing with slab reefing for easy bag storage and in the interests of safety stability in fly mode would be self-monitored and automated, which is not permitted under the AC75 rules. 
 
THE MILLENIAL GENERATION
Drawing on his extensive experience, Briand is looking to create a low-budget project that could be built in series by a production shipyard. The project is a perfect illustration of Briand’s philosophy of pushing the boundaries of yacht design: “I like to be on the edge as a sailboat designer,†he says. “Our role is to transfer the benefits of innovations from the racing sector to the wider market as reasonable cost. I want to introduce the millennium generation to how much fun and excitement can be had from sailing. And the first step towards that will be watching the AC75 Fly Monohulls in action in 2021!â€

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19 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Nice but I don't [see] one line on this boat, probably a nice art work :)

Use the force… or a bit of air guitar…

Nice bit of 'shopping. Looks cool to me, right up there with the scow mini 650s.

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10 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

I found the image on Facebook and extracted the url and the photo was all that would show.  The beginning of the url does not do anything https://scontent.fakl2-1.fna.fbcdn.net but it does seem to be a fake site .. :)

From Facebook;

Philippe Briand  -  Like Page

BREAKING NEWS - 6.5m Flyacht, the new Briand design studio concept of the flying monohull, inspired by the new AC75 class, is born. 
Official infos soon to be released. We welcome any comments

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6 hours ago, GBH said:

Briand - low budget???!!

READY FOR TAKE-OFF
With a 90° righting moment, much like a Mini Transat, the Flyacht is designed to be handled by a two-man crew with the possibility of ‘hiking’ (moving the body weight as far to windward as possible to decrease heeling when sailing upwind) before take-off speed is reached in around 10 knots of true wind speed. 
The rig consists of a soft wing with slab reefing for easy bag storage and in the interests of safety stability in fly mode would be self-monitored and automated, which is not permitted under the AC75 rules. 
 
THE MILLENIAL GENERATION
Drawing on his extensive experience, Briand is looking to create a low-budget project that could be built in series by a production shipyard. The project is a perfect illustration of Briand’s philosophy of pushing the boundaries of yacht design: “I like to be on the edge as a sailboat designer,†he says. “Our role is to transfer the benefits of innovations from the racing sector to the wider market as reasonable cost. I want to introduce the millennium generation to how much fun and excitement can be had from sailing. And the first step towards that will be watching the AC75 Fly Monohulls in action in 2021!â€

More here, Gtran

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.lastampa.it/2018/06/19/societa/philippe-briand-il-designer-che-crea-barche-dellamericas-cup-per-tutti-VmeslQ6KivipLxB4Om9v9H/pagina.html&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700126,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700186,15700191,15700201&usg=ALkJrhj_4v9_gNdPKx3o4fSObrDRUqOV4g

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It's a pretty clumsy Photoshop job. I have circled a few cloning marks to illustrate.  They should have used the healing brush after the clone stamp to clean up after themselves. Anyway, this is where the original boat had to be removed before layering that dodgy looking thing over the top :D

Untitled-4.jpg

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This thing is really picking up steam. Even ETNZ have shared the stuff.co.nz link on Facebook.

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3 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

It's a pretty clumsy Photoshop job. I have circled a few cloning marks to illustrate.  They should have used the healing brush after the clone stamp to clean up after themselves. Anyway, this is where the original boat had to be removed before layering that dodgy looking thing over the top :D

Untitled-4.jpg

You mean the whale tale stuck to the side of the hull didn't give it away?

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Why wouldn't they just use a water shot without a boat in it?

The hardest part of making this look realistic would be making the foils look like they're actually doing something. If it where me, I'd find a nice image of a GC32 at the correct angle and clone out everything but the splash where foil meets water. Then carefully layer the rendering over the top making the foils/rudders line up.

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Then you have to find the sweet spot where the foils enter the water. The splash around the rudder is really suspicious on the current render as most of the fast foiling boats will have a water spray behind the foil, not in front as pictured. Same for the are where the lifted foil meet the hull, difficult to imagine that it can rotate.

But the more you got into the details, the more time you will spend, for what? Their goal is to design and build a boat to sell. Their photoshop works was enough to catch the attention and get some nice publicity, I don't think the goal was to fool people. Would it looks better with a more realistic picture? Definitely! Would they gain something extra from this? Probably not and possibly the opposite considering the added effort required.

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On 6/20/2018 at 10:55 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

So, if this 6.5 m was racing against a shorter FP,  the Nacra fcs, or the Vampire, which one would win ? :)

 

I think we could safely guess this one .

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Somebody took these pictures and posted to facebook this morning. Anyone want to venture what hull they took to frankenengineer? 11 meter?

 

Image may contain: one or more people, sky and outdoor

Image may contain: one or more people, sky and outdoor

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First (non) surrogate spotted - Very cool. Will it sport a double-sided main?

Happened quicker than most of us were expecting, they must be cranked up at TI (Team INEOS?)

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Juging by the shape of the transom, and chine and the fact that it can't be more than 30ft unless the guy stood on it is 7ft plus... then I it could be a quant 28

bild2.jpg

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I note that they have used the foil wing arrangement (Mercedes 'star') they showed in their earlier renderings of their 75 - must think it's good, not just for style after all.

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1 hour ago, MultiMono said:

Are you really saying that Team UK have converted a quant 28 into what we see about? Just curious...

Yes - it really IS/Was the Q28, well suited as it has the right proportions and displacement.  Now has a foredeck, rig swiped off a production multihull, plus the assorted AC bits....there was only ever one Q28, and this is it. We did multiples of the Q30 and those are still all racing the lakes.

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29 minutes ago, hughw said:

Yes - it really IS/Was the Q28, well suited as it has the right proportions and displacement.  Now has a foredeck, rig swiped off a production multihull, plus the assorted AC bits....there was only ever one Q28, and this is it. We did multiples of the Q30 and those are still all racing the lakes.

Amazing, this forum sometimes. Thank you!

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1 hour ago, nav said:

I note that they have used the foil wing arrangement (Mercedes 'star') they showed in their earlier renderings of their 75 - must think it's good, not just for style after all.

The angle between the wings?

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6 hours ago, Geronimo said:

Somebody took these pictures and posted to facebook this morning. Anyone want to venture what hull they took to frankenengineer? 11 meter?

 

Image may contain: one or more people, sky and outdoor

 

I know it'll still look like the Jesus Lizard when foiling on one side, but in this image here it reminds me of a humpback whale - feels properly aquatic

whale-7.jpg.c746411e4ca90316f5aab1554a1cab95.jpg

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2 hours ago, nav said:

I note that they have used the foil wing arrangement (Mercedes 'star') they showed in their earlier renderings of their 75 - must think it's good, not just for style after all.

 

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

The angle between the wings?

 

image.png.dcb4848e85b6ace2adde8631313b085c.png

Lt9o4uxDRQ2WfgYMOx6I_ineos-team-gb-ameri

35745626_10160545336115611_7425941533582

 

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16 minutes ago, nav said:

 

 

35745626_10160545336115611_7425941533582

Rather crude foil design imo..... they used up all the R&D wonga on that building. ETNZ use tents and containers. Guess what they have: a cup. In all seriousness though, I don't think it was an RC44 and it's gonna be cool to see that thing sailing around the solent during the summer. It'd be nice to have better quality photos of those foils, never judge a book by its cover y'know. :) Right now, they look crude enough to accurately reflect INEUK's performance in the last cup...

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On 6/20/2018 at 8:55 PM, Lakrass said:

Then you have to find the sweet spot where the foils enter the water. The splash around the rudder is really suspicious on the current render as most of the fast foiling boats will have a water spray behind the foil, not in front as pictured. Same for the are where the lifted foil meet the hull, difficult to imagine that it can rotate.

But the more you got into the details, the more time you will spend, for what? Their goal is to design and build a boat to sell. Their photoshop works was enough to catch the attention and get some nice publicity, I don't think the goal was to fool people. Would it looks better with a more realistic picture? Definitely! Would they gain something extra from this? Probably not and possibly the opposite considering the added effort required.

I actually thought the original intent was to fool people that it was real. Now I understand it is purely to illustrate the concept so they probably achieved their goal okay.

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2 hours ago, nav said:

Too 'agricultural'?

Love those rams......:D

Still as 'proof of concept' - why not.

There will be a foil wings shape steady development progression, probably like last time from ‘safest’ to fastest. 

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On 6/18/2018 at 5:58 PM, Terry Hollis said:

I found the image on Facebook and extracted the url and the photo was all that would show.  The beginning of the url does not do anything https://scontent.fakl2-1.fna.fbcdn.net but it does seem to be a fake site .. :)

fbcdn stands for Facebook Content Delivery Network. This is where facebook hosts images you upload.

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32 minutes ago, nroose said:

fbcdn stands for Facebook Content Delivery Network. This is where facebook hosts images you upload.

Thanks for that .. I was looking at the facl2 bit .. :)

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Well "oily beef hooked " I'm glad to see there's something finally happening on the surrogate front ,but it's certainly not an endearing image sitting there looking all soft and floppy while on the hard . I can only imagine  what sort of hydraulic juggling  is going to take place going from effectively a hand brake hill start to winding up to full noise . Anyone think that maybe the form stability of a scow might be a better alternative for a first go at the new concept ?

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11 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Rather crude foil design imo..... they used up all the R&D wonga on that building. ETNZ use tents and containers. Guess what they have: a cup. 

It's mostly a housing area, not industrial. Not certain how keen the local residents or the council would have been on permanent tents and containers.

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11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

There will be a foil wings shape steady development progression, probably like last time from ‘safest’ to fastest. 

Obviously.....but it's not as if the starting point for each group will necessarily be the same.

If you looked you would see that three quite different initial ideas, crude as they may be, have been shown in early drawings and videos from ETNZ/LR, Magic and Ineos.

Ineos is the first to put their money where their mouth is - and have stuck with their early idea as posted above.....

image.png.5d07076f50252b6614bc04a05b80114c.png

Large_AC_75_38451.jpg

 

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The building was largely paid for by a government grant to promote marine industry in the Portsmouth area after the loss of key defence contracts at the local BAE facility. 

Southampton and Portsmouth were effectively in a bidding war to get the team base. Portsmouth offered to fast track the planning application and central government offered up the grant to show it was supporting the local area after transferring shipbuilding contracts to the Clyde (in a possible political play regarding indyref). 

There was a lot of talk about creating a sustainable team and adding to a Solent hub for marine expertise which was obviously linked to local and national government support. No such overtures from INEOS yet... but then I don''t get the impression they require the grace of government grants in the way Land Rover did. 

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Gonna be real interesting to see if this works.

 

I wonder if ETNZ have had any input? :unsure:

Heresy! I hear you scream and normally I'd agree