pacice

Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

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2 hours ago, Sam_rosenbaum said:

 t

This is the prototype put out by Team UK, Looks like it might kill someone 

Gawd you've got several months of reading to get through before posting...

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On 9/4/2018 at 1:24 PM, dg_sailingfan said:

We did not dialups in the AC 50?

High-performance boats do not preclude dialups - there was a massive dialup between the trimaran and catamaran at the start of race 1 of the 33rd AC. 

A dialup is a tactic you use in a windward start.  I don't see how it makes a lot of sense for a reaching start, because the boat closer to the line has a huge advantage.  You'd get the hook, take them up, and then peel off for the line before coming to a stop in a dialup.  Crossing the windward boundary of the starting area gets you both offsetting penalties, so it's not like taking your opponent to the course side of the start line and then ducking back to start before them.

The 36th AC will have windward starts, so expect dialups.

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7 minutes ago, Basiliscus said:

High-performance boats do not preclude dialups - there was a massive dialup between the trimaran and catamaran at the start of race 1 of the 33rd AC. 

A dialup is a tactic you use in a windward start.  I don't see how it makes a lot of sense for a reaching start, because the boat closer to the line has a huge advantage.  You'd get the hook, take them up, and then peel off for the line before coming to a stop in a dialup.  Crossing the windward boundary of the starting area gets you both offsetting penalties, so it's not like taking your opponent to the course side of the start line and then ducking back to start before them.

The 36th AC will have windward starts, so expect dialups.

Well, at least that is what they keep saying. AC 33 did not have "Foils" so there wasn't a huge problem back then, these new AC 75 Class Boats will have these sort of canting foils. Imagine one of the foils hit you when you in the Start Box.

Having Pre-Start Dialups with the foils they have is a very undesireable Result. I'm totally agreeing with the User "Boybland". They should keep these foils down until the Start Gun if the want windward starts otherwise it gets too dangerous.

We already had a Start Collision between former Land Rover BAR and SBTJ during the AC Qualifiers of AC 35. Given how hard these Helmsman will push their boats during the Pre-Start I'm getting very concerned about this.

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FWIW, Patrizio Bertelli in the latest La Stampa interview said there’ll be circling, with both foils in the lower (docking) position

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But the Noob/sock puppet is concerned, very concerned, so hit the panic button - or call the whole thing off!!

Try informing yourself a bit dg-s, note that AC boats race under different rules from all others, these rules take into account (as far as pos') the speed and the pointy bits associated with foiling - heard of the 'Virtual Diamond'? And no,  that has nothing to do with Indiana Jones.....

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

FWIW, Patrizio Bertelli in the latest La Stampa interview said there’ll be circling, with both foils in the lower (docking) position

Now that makes more sense in the Start Box.

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Then again using the foils to attack each other 'Robot Wars' style would probably bring in a whole new audience!?

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5 hours ago, nav said:

Then again using the foils to attack each other 'Robot Wars' style would probably bring in a whole new audience!?

Basher tried that last time, didn't work out so well :ph34r:

 

Surely this was a dialup? (and a clean out!)

 

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

Basher tried that last time, didn't work out so well :ph34r:

 

Surely this was a dialup? (and a clean out!)

That is not a dial, it's a hook.

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13 hours ago, nav said:

Then again using the foils to attack each other 'Robot Wars' style would probably bring in a whole new audience!?

 

7 hours ago, hoom said:

Basher tried that last time, didn't work out so well :ph34r:

 

That was a simple wrestling move - (I'd post photos of face sitting but....... :o),  much better weapons systems this time!

 

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8 hours ago, Boybland said:

That is not a dial, it's a hook.

Yes but after the hook is established isn't the luff all the way up to head-to-wind a dialup? I always thought that counts as a dialup.

 

But also the start of the sequence, what got Jimmy in the shit was he predicted ETNZ was going to tack immediately & attempted to close the gauge to block the tack -> forcing a conventional dialup or gybe but Orifice lost too much speed, then failed to accelerate when Jimmy bailed, while ETNZ had speed & enough room to flick it round to get the hook.

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11 hours ago, hoom said:

Yes but after the hook is established isn't the luff all the way up to head-to-wind a dialup? I always thought that counts as a dialup.

 

But also the start of the sequence, what got Jimmy in the shit was he predicted ETNZ was going to tack immediately & attempted to close the gauge to block the tack -> forcing a conventional dialup or gybe but Orifice lost too much speed, then failed to accelerate when Jimmy bailed, while ETNZ had speed & enough room to flick it round to get the hook.

I always felt/thought a dial up was when the boats came in from opposite tacks and go head to wind side by side.  As is happening in this video and 1:05.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Boybland said:

I always felt/thought a dial up was when the boats came in from opposite tacks and go head to wind side by side.  As is happening in this video and 1:05.

 

 

Definition in the video (around 1:30) [g-tran] DIAL UP: Stalemate with bow in the wind especially during the five minutes before the start

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On 9/9/2018 at 2:25 PM, Boybland said:

That is not a dial, it's a hook.

It certainly was a wind up... on a cocky little ginger...

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Very interesting story of the new foils. Interesting to note who was part of the creation team tood an the reason he gives to name them.

"We all have separate projects but we like working together. They are my collaborators who decree the success of these projects. I have to mention them all. Is very important. It goes to the cohesion of the study! Here are the names: Romaric Neyhousser, architect; Herve Penfornis, facilities, project management and deck; Morgane Schlumberger, structures and project management; Bobby Kleinschmit, architect and performance; Véronique Soule, fluid dynamics and performance; Nick Holroyd, architect; Leonard Imas and Romain Garo, both fluid dynamics; Louis Pillot, drawings. The group of the Pure en Structure studio in New Zealand is directed by Giovanni Belgrano and counts on Adam Greenwood, Andy Kensington and Martin Bivoit."

Anything but a national team :)

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Very interesting story of the new foils. Interesting to note who was part of the creation team tood an the reason he gives to name them.

"We all have separate projects but we like working together. They are my collaborators who decree the success of these projects. I have to mention them all. Is very important. It goes to the cohesion of the study! Here are the names: Romaric Neyhousser, architect; Herve Penfornis, facilities, project management and deck; Morgane Schlumberger, structures and project management; Bobby Kleinschmit, architect and performance; Véronique Soule, fluid dynamics and performance; Nick Holroyd, architect; Leonard Imas and Romain Garo, both fluid dynamics; Louis Pillot, drawings. The group of the Pure en Structure studio in New Zealand is directed by Giovanni Belgrano and counts on Adam Greenwood, Andy Kensington and Martin Bivoit."

Anything but a national team :)

Umm...Nationality is irrelevant in context to the discussion this quote came from. He isn't naming a "Team" he is naming collaborators he works with to ensure his projects succeed. 

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Very interesting story of the new foils. Interesting to note who was part of the creation team tood an the reason he gives to name them.

"We all have separate projects but we like working together. They are my collaborators who decree the success of these projects. I have to mention them all. Is very important. It goes to the cohesion of the study! Here are the names: Romaric Neyhousser, architect; Herve Penfornis, facilities, project management and deck; Morgane Schlumberger, structures and project management; Bobby Kleinschmit, architect and performance; Véronique Soule, fluid dynamics and performance; Nick Holroyd, architect; Leonard Imas and Romain Garo, both fluid dynamics; Louis Pillot, drawings. The group of the Pure en Structure studio in New Zealand is directed by Giovanni Belgrano and counts on Adam Greenwood, Andy Kensington and Martin Bivoit."

Anything but a national team :)

Nice try at deception, or did you genuinely just misunderstand the article?

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Thanks for that Terry.

OT: I noted this under the video....

Peter Burling – Helmsman, Defender Emirates Team New Zealand
Max Sirena – Team Director and Skipper, Challenger of Record Luna Rossa Challenge
Terry Hutchinson – Executive Director and Skipper, Challenger NYYC American Magic
Ben Ainslie – Team Principal & Skipper, Challenger INEOS TEAM UK

In AC35 ETNZ made the decision to present GA as 'Skipper' over PB, presumably to take some of the pressure off the young and less experienced (PR-wise) helm.*

It looks like this time we can look forward to press conferences and photo-ops featuring 'skippers' who aren't even on the boat!?

Remember those flags featuring GA plus all the other helms? Not sure Casper and Max are the faces they want to feature.....

Lets hope for flexibility in who has to show for what

*though both did some of the 'PR-duty'

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New Zealand have a track record of testing in secret and launching when it suits them....... and not been driven by northern hemisphere calendar, expectations or rumour mongering.

Remember how they developed the SL33 cats, how they developed their own AC50. They are smart and beat the drum to their own tune.

The fact that you do not see testing in Auckland is not indicative that they are not testing.

The foils on the NYYC are what are laughable - no flaps, rudimentary shapes, complete media control, no sailing in anything other than super light airs and obviously therefore no foiling - just not credible. Their deck layout is thought provoking though.

Where will INEOS go over winter? Middle East, Carribean, Auckland or pull the shutters down unless good weather......

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2 hours ago, Boink said:

Where will INEOS go over winter? Middle East, Carribean, Auckland or pull the shutters down unless good weather......

I reckon once you've packed it in a box it doesn't really matter how far you ship it - so I can see them coming all the way to NZ.

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3 hours ago, Boink said:

New Zealand have a track record of testing in secret

I don't recall the secrecy lasting very long. For example there were photo of the SL33 testing here quickly enough,

Local racing carries on 12 months a year in the UK, particularly dinghy racing. I'm not sure Ineos needs to move anywhere.

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7 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

If you remember the whole story... fouling testing prior to SL33 was done behind a powerboat on a foiling mule, on a random lake...

Exactly. Still maintaining this would be the obvious, more effective and cheaper way forward this time around too

 

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On 9/10/2018 at 10:46 AM, Boybland said:

I always felt/thought a dial up was when the boats came in from opposite tacks and go head to wind side by side.  As is happening in this video and 1:05.

 

 

Wow.  And they used to say that America's Cup racing wasn't exciting!

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17 hours ago, dogwatch said:

For example there were photo of the SL33 testing here quickly enough

My recollection they showed up quite a long time after the AC72 foiling had been revealed.

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17 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

If you remember the whole story... fouling testing prior to SL33 was done behind a powerboat on a foiling mule, on a random lake...

This is how i recall it. All foil geometry developed on the mule to give the auto regulating ride hide that they were seeking - some inland freshwater lake out in whoop whoop.

Only revealed that this was done after AC72 broke cover.

Caught Oracle flat footed.....

There are lots of remote lakes in both North and South Island to repeat such a programme.

I realise that the UK can be sailed in year round - done it myself - but ripping around at 30 knots with air temps around 0c/32F in Jan/Feb would give a wind chill that might focus the mind in places other than which effect has the latest round of modifications caused.

They are not wanting for budget either......

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17 hours ago, Boink said:

.....

I realise that the UK can be sailed in year round - done it myself - but ripping around at 30 knots with air temps around 0c/32F in Jan/Feb would give a wind chill that might focus the mind in places other than which effect has the latest round of modifications caused.

 

 

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This came up in a conversation and I've been unable to find an answer. Has the battery capacity of the AC75 been announced anywhere, and if so,  how many cycles of the foils (one side down and the other up) does it work out to?

Cheers,

Earl


 

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I would love to know that, too.  And even if supplied batteries, are there legal control system hacks to get more maneuvers out of them?  Would be odd to have to ration tactics for battery constraints.

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1 hour ago, Earl Boebert said:

This came up in a conversation and I've been unable to find an answer. Has the battery capacity of the AC75 been announced anywhere, and if so,  how many cycles of the foils (one side down and the other up) does it work out to?

Cheers,

Earl


 

There was a video recently about the foils, at the 45 second mark they show the pump. If someone is able to identify the motor, then it's power consumption would be know. They state in the video it runs for 15 seconds to recharge the system

 

 

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The Protocol and the Class Rule are obviously written in such a way as to (theoretically) preclude anyone gaining an advantage by 'hacking' the supplied gear

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There seems some latitude in control system design and implemention per Class Rule 22-24.  Is it impossible that certain legal  choices are better than others?  The systems are not, I think, supplied. "Hack" can be a clever workaround or technique (eg a life hack), not always just what one now thinks of as black-hat computer hacking.  

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Based on a (very) superficial study of the video it appears the limiting factor on stored energy is not the battery but the "pre-charge" pressure vessel.

It's a complex bit of gear, and safety-critical. Which raises a few of interesting (to me, at least) questions:

Who does the failure effects analysis and do the challengers get to review it? (Role normally played by national authorities who issue airworthiness certificates for other kinds of flying machines)

Who maintains the device once it is installed in a challenger vessel? The defender? Or are challengers expected to be trained up on on the equipment?

What mechanism exists for redress if a challenger loss (or worse, campaign-ending crash) is attributed to the defender-furnished foil cant system? And who does the accident investigation, should one be needed?

Cheers,

Earl

 

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Excellent questions.

Wonder if there is any challenger review wrt supplied battery specs and quality assurance, too.

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