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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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pacice

Foiling Monohull - what would it look like?

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8 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

There hasnt been any development of that idea yet has there?

Quant foils are a variant of the IMOCA and foiling 650 foils, so yes, there has been a lot of development of lateral foils on monohulls. And don't discount the work being done quietly on foiling scow Moths.

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23 minutes ago, The Jay said:

So where are the race results showing Q23 style foilers winning races and beating foiling cats?

In fact, where are the race results showing Q23 style foilers consistently winning races ahead of fast sportsboats?

The Q23 is not a race boat. It is designed to take off in very light air (around 5 knots) and be extremely easy  and for giving to sail. But there is no reason that the Q foils couldn't be used and refined for a race boat.

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15 minutes ago, RobG said:

Quant foils are a variant of the IMOCA and foiling 650 foils, so yes, there has been a lot of development of lateral foils on monohulls. And don't discount the work being done quietly on foiling scow Moths.

The Welbourn designed "Q" foils on the Quant and the whole DSS2 system they represent pioneered keelboat foiling and were around before any of the IMOCA foil assist boats or the 650 foilers.

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Back to more, or perhaps less, serious stuff.

If we want to answer to what is the fastest, a foiling mono or a foiling multi, we have to tell what  that ice boat is, a mono with foils or a multi with pod :mellow:

119-iceboat_2.jpg

BTW, I love the mono screwer.

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you just need to hold the rig up

thats the rig with enough power to overcome the drag

10 guys on a ice boat, I'll bet they look the same

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the design issue will be all around the minimum wind speed agreed.

( that would be one boat for Italy and one for NZ)

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Ag

3 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

the design issue will be all around the minimum wind speed agreed.

( that would be one boat for Italy and one for NZ)

Correct

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

I thought the Quant was sailing before those other boats had foils?

Yes, they are variations of the same thing and show that development is taking place for racing, not just foiling for foiling's sake.

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7 minutes ago, RobG said:

Yes, they are variations of the same thing and show that development is has already and is still taking place for racing AC, not just foiling for foiling's sake.

My sources tell me...

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8 hours ago, Sailabout said:

the design issue will be all around the minimum wind speed agreed.

( that would be one boat for Italy and one for NZ)

 Not for Sardinia, I think

 

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12 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 Not for Sardinia, I think

 

still have to have to have one so you dont have a 4kts sb show on a slow day, and knowing that you can do your design scenarios

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fwiw, from http://mobile.royalgazette.com/sailing/article/20171006/foiling-cats-could-return-to-island

It is understood that a regatta possibly featuring the AC50 foiling catamaran used for the 35th America’s Cup, which Bermuda hosted this year, could be held on the Great Sound.

Among those being linked to the project is Sir Russell Coutts, who served as the chief executive of the America’s Cup Event Authority.

“At this stage there are no set plans on anything,” was all that Alejandro Mato, Coutts’s personal assistant, was prepared to comment on when approached by The Royal Gazette.

 

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I guess the main question (for me) is how do you make an 75 feet monohull (with some limits on width) as fast as possible, given a wide range of winds.? I guess foils, no keel and large freedom in sail area.

 

Would be very dangerous?

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, arneelof said:

I guess the main question (for me) is how do you make an 75 feet monohull (with some limits on width) as fast as possible, given a wide range of winds.? I guess foils, no keel and large freedom in sail area.

Would be very dangerous?

It's probably gonna be light and fairly narrow to work well in light wind and have good maneuverability. Could have a mothlike keel with a bulb that can be canted and elevators on the rudders. Things, like foils, sticking out of the side of the hull is not good for match racing

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9 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

fwiw, from http://mobile.royalgazette.com/sailing/article/20171006/foiling-cats-could-return-to-island

It is understood that a regatta possibly featuring the AC50 foiling catamaran used for the 35th America’s Cup, which Bermuda hosted this year, could be held on the Great Sound.

Among those being linked to the project is Sir Russell Coutts, who served as the chief executive of the America’s Cup Event Authority.

“At this stage there are no set plans on anything,” was all that Alejandro Mato, Coutts’s personal assistant, was prepared to comment on when approached by The Royal Gazette.

 

Nothing new but a comment on it

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/2017-Americas-Cup---AC50s-to-make-a-return-to-Bermuda/157817

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On 10/1/2017 at 3:31 PM, Doug Lord said:

NZAC Sailplan ,version one
Based on these calcu-guestimates:
A) At 90 degrees the force holding the boat there is 171,926 ft.lbs.
The force trying to right the boat is 483,800lb
1-keel weight 19782 lb @ 20'
2-buoyancy from pod-4608lb @20'

3- Wing mast 115' above deck

4-SA=3191 sq.ft./ CE 59' above center of lift of keel/foil combo
-----
-b Weights----
1) hull weight-8572 lb
2) keel weight 19782lb
3) rig weight 2915lb
4) crew weight 1900lb
5)TOTAL DISPL.= 33168 lb
-----
C) RM on Foils:
1) HM at 59' with 2.5lb/sq/ft. pressure= 470,672 ft.lb.
2) RM, boat slightly heeled, mast vertical=569,418 ft.lb.
-----
D) Foil Loading one main foil in the water supporting 80% of the load=
18' X 2.5' chord foil fully immersed=589lb/sq.ft.

E) Fully retractable main foils for lightest air sailing.

F) Upper third of main could possibly be designed as a solid sail with two panels. When the whole sail is reefed this section would slide down. Needs study but may be effective.

G) From my analysis the thing may need a canting keel-not for ultimate RM but to start out. Needs much more study. Probably has great potential IF the target weight is within about 6000lb  of the 31268lb total boat weight( for this first run) including keel.

NZAC SAILPLAN, version 1,  9-29-17 004.JPG

NZAC revised   9-7-17 003.JPG

NZAC ONE     9-25-17  dl 002 - Copy.JPG

 

The idea of the racks is to get the crew as far outboard as possible, to provide a position for the buoyancy pods as far outboard as possible and to "shield" other boats from contact with the main foils.......

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

The idea of the racks is to get the crew as far outboard as possible, to provide a position for the buoyancy pods as far outboard as possible and to "shield" other boats from contact with the main foils.......

It's not that far fetched, the Q23 planing & foiling scow idea but with buoyancy/shields could well be one of the 2 or 3 primary concepts still on the drafting table.

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We need to wait till the protocol gets issued and we see how many moveable appendages are allowed, then we here on SA can design the boat for them

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10 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

 

The idea of the racks is to get the crew as far outboard as possible, to provide a position for the buoyancy pods as far outboard as possible and to "shield" other boats from contact with the main foils.......

 

9 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It's not that far fetched, the Q23 planing & foiling scow idea but with buoyancy/shields could well be one of the 2 or 3 primary concepts still on the drafting table.

Unbelieveble!!! They are disposing the AC 50, to end up with a graft with pods and foils sticking out from a central hull?? What's the difference? Would it be more seaworthy in all conditions, and have better match racing abilities (give a damn about it) than a well design tri? It's all bullshit just to please the Italians. Really TNZ, very dissapointed about your attitude (I guess you won't have nightmares). And I really hope that sometime in the future you can tell me : Wrong!!

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Agreed, it is pretty wet (actually disgraceful) for Kiwis to be thinking of this archaic shit.

If they're going to succeed with this slightly revamped old thinking, they're going to have to produce something radical, so radical that it has never been done before.

And nothing like LoFool's spindly, snap like water crackers bath tub toy ... which he has now posted same stupid image of more than a dozen times. Repetition ad nauseum is his middle name?

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5 hours ago, jorge said:

 

Unbelieveble!!! They are disposing the AC 50, to end up with a graft with pods and foils sticking out from a central hull?? What's the difference? Would it be more seaworthy in all conditions, and have better match racing abilities (give a damn about it) than a well design tri? It's all bullshit just to please the Italians. Really TNZ, very dissapointed about your attitude (I guess you won't have nightmares). And I really hope that sometime in the future you can tell me : Wrong!!

No it's not-the Italians aren't likely to go for as radical a boat as NZAC. There is potential in this new rule for extreme monofoilers that could transform what most people think a keelboat is. Not too likely to happen but one can always hope. The worst case scenario is a non-flying leadbelly which would make a mockery of what the Cup represents.

NZAC or something like it would be a technological marvel capable of speeds similar to a cat or tri-trickle down from NZAC would be an I14 or Aussie 18 on foils+. Likely to be able to tack and gybe on foils........

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37 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

No it's not-the Italians aren't likely to go for as radical a boat as NZAC. There is potential in this new rule for extreme monofoilers that could transform what most people think a keelboat is. Not too likely to happen but one can always hope. The worst case scenario is a non-flying leadbelly which would make a mockery of what the Cup represents.

NZAC or something like it would be a technological marvel capable of speeds similar to a cat or tri-trickle down from NZAC would be an I14 or Aussie 18 on foils+. Likely to be able to tack and gybe on foils........

GD spoke of thinking from one dimensions with a mono to 7 dimensions. He also tells that from 3 concepts they are not down to 2. Promising but not sure what he means.

Ah, he also said that it was providing them some design advantage and advance.

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If anyone can redefine an AC mono as a foiler TNZ can. We already know that keelboats can foil thanks to Hugh Welbourn in 2015. His boat takes off in 5kts and foils upwind in 7-8 knots-top speed so far around 27-28 knots. NZAC should be able to foil in light air, foil upwind in relatively light air and have a mindblowing top speed in the 40's or so.....

Could be a massive technological leap IF TNZ can pull it off.

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I would be more specific saying that Guillaume Verdier is the one that can pull it off.

The question is to know what concept GD will be keeping, and I don't think P$B will be willing to chose an extreme one. W'll see.

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Well, you're right- IF they let him!

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I would be more specific saying that Guillaume Verdier is the one that can pull it off.

The question is to know what concept GD will be keeping, and I don't think P$B will be willing to chose an extreme one. W'll see.

Agree with this. ETNZ (Bernasconi? Green? someone) has said the option will still have to be agreed with P$B; and if he made monohulls a condition for reasons having to do with 'dignity' and 'grandiose' and 'traditional' in order to match Prada branding of that flavor, well then the choice will be closer to that end of the spectrum. It's the same notions that Bruno T has been going on and on about in the morality lessons he keeps delivering, with him being from a very similar (big, luxury fashion-house) tradition.

If P$B instead had it in mind to keep pressing the technology edge, we might alternatively be looking at Gitana 17 style boats, which is a far more sensible boat to foil..

Maxi_1000_444.jpg

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Hey stingray--do you know who took that picture?

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37 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agree with this. ETNZ (Bernasconi? Green? someone) has said the option will still have to be agreed with P$B; and if he made monohulls a condition for reasons having to do with 'dignity' and 'grandiose' and 'traditional' in order to match Prada branding of that flavor, well then the choice will be closer to that end of the spectrum. It's the same notions that Bruno T has been going on and on about in the morality lessons he keeps delivering, with him being from a very similar (big, luxury fashion-house) tradition.

If P$B instead had it in mind to keep pressing the technology edge, we might alternatively be looking at Gitana 17 style boats, which is a far more sensible boat to foil..

Maxi_1000_444.jpg

That would have been the perfect kind of boat for Hauraki gulf, unless they propose a better extreme mono concept.

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26 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Except for the 5 minute tacks

Fine, then make a version that tacks a lot faster. 

I think that the many of us who agree that the future is all about foiling also agree that multihulls are by far the best platform for it. They can look good too, it's simply a case of

GitanaMaxiTrimaran2017_15.jpg

rather than

P00264917.jpg

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Count me among the crowd who thinks that is a cool boat, but entirely unsuited for match racing.  The comparatively agile AC50s featured very little traditional match racing and a lot of banging the boundaries, so a fleet of Gitanas would be a disaster and a complete bore with time-and-distance starts followed by NHRA-style drag races.

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45 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Count me among the crowd who thinks that is a cool boat, but entirely unsuited for match racing.  The comparatively agile AC50s featured very little traditional match racing and a lot of banging the boundaries, so a fleet of Gitanas would be a disaster and a complete bore with time-and-distance starts followed by NHRA-style drag races.

Sure it's a cool boat, in a French kind of way. Ideal for record-breaking ocean racing.

Match racing, not so much.

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1 hour ago, ezyb said:

Count me among the crowd who thinks that is a cool boat, but entirely unsuited for match racing.  The comparatively agile AC50s featured very little traditional match racing and a lot of banging the boundaries, so a fleet of Gitanas would be a disaster and a complete bore with time-and-distance starts followed by NHRA-style drag races.

So then design and race a fast tacking version!

Oh well.

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11 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

So then design and race a fast tacking version!

Oh well.

Which would then look nothing like Gitana!  I enjoyed Bermuda but I got frustrated with the limited "sail to one boundary and hope for a shift" tactics.  To be fair, I don't know if I can blame the boats for that vs the course lay-out which was unduly restrictive.  If ETNZ can come-up with a high-performance mono (speed is nice for the on-screen graphics, but is largely indiscernible on TV so I don't really care about breaking 40) that encourages real match-racing tactics with proper pre-starts vs staying above the lay and timing your run to the line, real tacking duels and gybing battles then I personally will be happy.  So something between the 50s and the old school mono-slugs.  There's a niche for the bang-the-boundaries speed sailing, but it doesn't really excite me.

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47 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

So then design and race a fast tacking version!

Oh well.

it's not like the AC50s tacked slowly, and I think they were great match racing boats when the boats were equal, just like the old IACC boats.  Different tactics but plenty of opportunities, again, when the boats were equal.  It wasn't common.

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5 minutes ago, sclarke said:

This?

New3_3.jpg

5 years ago, that would have looked cutting edge.  And do us and the world's lawyers a favor and source your images.

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4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

5 years ago, that would have looked cutting edge.  And do us and the world's lawyers a favor and source your images.

Google.

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40 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Which would then look nothing like Gitana!  I enjoyed Bermuda but I got frustrated with the limited "sail to one boundary and hope for a shift" tactics.  To be fair, I don't know if I can blame the boats for that vs the course lay-out which was unduly restrictive.  If ETNZ can come-up with a high-performance mono (speed is nice for the on-screen graphics, but is largely indiscernible on TV so I don't really care about breaking 40) that encourages real match-racing tactics with proper pre-starts vs staying above the lay and timing your run to the line, real tacking duels and gybing battles then I personally will be happy.  So something between the 50s and the old school mono-slugs.  There's a niche for the bang-the-boundaries speed sailing, but it doesn't really excite me.

Agree with most of that but the AC50's were very quick tackers, with fewer boat lengths lost or penalty suffered than in, say, the IAACs. And there were plenty of tacks done short of boundaries due to shifts and or covering, watch the Match races again.

I am convinced they could have gone bigger and more 'grandiose' for P$B at 75' much like the AC72's, or even (as RG kept arguing) at the AC62 size.

Multi foilers could have tacked just as fast or faster next time with the now-improved foil control systems. Even with a tri, if that suits the H Gulf better, foiling tacks could be spectacular.

If you want to do the traditional slow dance upwind and downwind then mono's obviously make better dance partners.  But then why bother trying to make a foiler out of it? What on earth is the point?

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Interesting that a number here seem to think there is a niche somewhere between a mini maxi and a  ... mini maxi and ...  between a .... there isn't an example, is there? So this figment of conservative imagination has yet to be designed, built, sailed and evaluated. And don't say a BS 75 foot Moth.. But we hope that Verdier can use his imagination and creativity ... but the poor bastard has both hands tied behind his back by retrograde non-thinkers? Unless he comes up with some genius solution the next AC is going to be beyond boring?

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Sure it's a cool boat, in a French kind of way. Ideal for record-breaking ocean racing.

Match racing, not so much.

Lots here were saying the same thing about cats, they proved to foil tack faster than most sailing boat.

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19 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If you want to do the traditional slow dance upwind and downwind then mono's obviously make better dance partners.  But then why bother trying to make a foiler out of it? What on earth is the point?

Agree!

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I have to say I get a bit tired of the arguing over the boat rule.  It started in 1987 with KZ1 and Stars and Stripes. and every 4 yrs new boats are designed and made.

I think the trick now will be to make the crew relevant. In Bermuda, you could replace all but three crew with a bank of batteries. IE a sailor wasnt optimal for a sailing race. So we need to get back to have sailors decide races. Do the class of boat really matter that much? I know in the past, with the wide open boat rule, that innovations occurred...but now? Cant see what new innovation will excel given that 95% of the boast was out of the water last AC. If innovation is desired then take all the crew off- save a helmsman and foil trimmer tactician off the boat and replace with highspeed pumps/motors and batteries which are more efficient. Maybe sail them remotely and use proven algorithms for it all. At some point the human sailor became the 2nd best. 

So a move back towards a one design class boat is favourable to this AC fan. Sail changes and tacking duels ARE the race. I might limit the electronics allowed too. 

Using the Volvo rule is fine by me...multi-hulls arent the future for a good close competition. 

(okay let me have it. hehe.)

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9 minutes ago, oobilly said:

I think the trick now will be to make the crew relevant.

AC history has crews from Norway, Finland, wherever the hell they could find guys from to sail the boats. Listen to even 'Stars and Stripes' Dennis Connor on that subject, he explains it too.

What wins AC's is what the competition really is about:

The best designed and constructed boat.

 

9 minutes ago, oobilly said:

So we need to get back to have sailors decide races. Do the class of boat really matter that much?

Yes! It MATTERS.

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If you want to do the traditional slow dance upwind and downwind then mono's obviously make better dance partners.  But then why bother trying to make a foiler out of it? What on earth is the point?

I guess a Rumba is a little more exciting than a Waltze, no?

Depends on the mood I'd say, Stinger. Each to their own, eh?

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^ Of course, folks were saying the same thing about conventional cats, once upon a time.

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10 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I would be more specific saying that Guillaume Verdier is the one that can pull it off.

The question is to know what concept GD will be keeping, and I don't think P$B will be willing to chose an extreme one. W'll see.

I think a lot of people who get breathless about GV and other supposed gurus in technology competitions like F1 fundamentally misunderstand the nature of engineering things.  Unless you and others are saying he's a great project manager, you're way short-changing a huge number of other contributors, who easily may have made more consequential contributions or facilitated key ones, and I don't believe project management had much to do with his role last cycle. He's one guy. He's the flavor of the month,  maybe longer.  No one person is going to win the cup for a team or pull off some kind of mono revolution through the AC, they simply cannot carry the complexity alone. 

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31 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

I think a lot of people who get breathless about GV and other supposed gurus in technology competitions like F1 fundamentally misunderstand the nature of engineering things.  Unless you and others are saying he's a great project manager, you're way short-changing a huge number of other contributors, who easily may have made more consequential contributions or facilitated key ones, and I don't believe project management had much to do with his role last cycle. He's one guy. He's the flavor of the month,  maybe longer.  No one person is going to win the cup for a team or pull off some kind of mono revolution through the AC, they simply cannot carry the complexity alone. 

I agree that teams are necessary. GD named both Guillaume Verdier and Dan Bernasconi as their key designers for the next boat. (Clean interview).

And BTW, Guillaume Verdier is behind all big foilers success today, just to name it: Safran, Gitana trimaran foiler, TNZ at the AC.

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4 hours ago, buckdouger said:

I think a lot of people who get breathless about GV and other supposed gurus in technology competitions like F1 fundamentally misunderstand the nature of engineering things.  Unless you and others are saying he's a great project manager, you're way short-changing a huge number of other contributors, who easily may have made more consequential contributions or facilitated key ones, and I don't believe project management had much to do with his role last cycle. He's one guy. He's the flavor of the month,  maybe longer.  No one person is going to win the cup for a team or pull off some kind of mono revolution through the AC, they simply cannot carry the complexity alone. 

+1

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

Not that I disagree but I sense

margarita-salt.jpg

 

 

 

Looks a bit grainy to snort, no?

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Just pondering this design teams question:

I think I recall TNZ tried it once, no maybe twice, with a Design Office. That was Farr, following MF's Big Boat cock-up. The Little Red Sled came out of his office. The feeling in the camp was that the team had lost control and were given little opportunity into the boat design. 

Of course ETNZ hasn't been completely happy with all its "in-house" designers either.

Interesting conundrum.

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15 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

GD spoke of thinking from one dimensions with a mono to 7 dimensions. He also tells that from 3 concepts they are not down to 2. Promising but not sure what he means.

Ah, he also said that it was providing them some design advantage and advance.

Not sure what the thinking is, but in a pre-start situation, it's mostly about  maneuvers, so a good reverse mode or being able to unexpectedly slide sideways could be beneficial. Maybe instead of a canting keel, there would be an extra rudder ;) 

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1 hour ago, jonas a said:

Not sure what the thinking is, but in a pre-start situation, it's mostly about  maneuvers, so a good reverse mode or being able to unexpectedly slide sideways could be beneficial. Maybe instead of a canting keel, there would be an extra rudder ;) 

Or a couple of decent-sized thrusters? ;)

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No one is claiming they want 'more clearly national crews' because GS mandated it, or because it's 'traditional'.

They have said the reason is to give a 'National' dimension to the AC in the way that is clearest to any interested public.

But I find it ironic to be looking back and talking about 'Norwegian crews' as if it has relevance, while at the same time deliberately ignoring the number of hulls they were crewing on!?

 

And on the subject of boat choice....again the reasons stated are not that it will make for better or worse match racing, outright speed etc, but that the class and any development that flows from it will be more relevant to more sailors.

Pretty simple - whether you agree with that priority or not.

Oh and for the tin-foil hatters/haters, the Italians have publicly stated there was no agreement to go to monos - sure 'nuff

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I am hoping the designers will break new ground and we will see a concept we hadnt thought of

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20 hours ago, nav said:

No one is claiming they want 'more clearly national crews' because GS mandated it, or because it's 'traditional'.

They have said the reason is to give a 'National' dimension to the AC in the way that is clearest to any interested public.

Not sure they have said that. They've, and GD in particular, have said they want it to be more nationalistic. BT has said that the nationalistic element is what raises the AC above any other JAR. It seems to be an issue for some of the backers, although ironically enough not for the main money for ETNZ obviously. I guess the ETNZ backers just like to win?

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On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:05 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

it's not like the AC50s tacked slowly, and I think they were great match racing boats when the boats were equal, just like the old IACC boats.  Different tactics but plenty of opportunities, again, when the boats were equal.  It wasn't common.

100%

When they moved out of the 12s all the considered opinion was that it would be a disaster because big heavy slow tacking boats (with overhangs) where what you needed to make prestart and tacking duels, and there for match racing, interesting.

People built boats specifically for match racing on these principles.

Then when people eventually got round to match racing small sportish yachts it turned out not to be true. If the boats are equal wind shifts and pressure are more important, forcing the lead boat to stay with the trail boat. If they are good at turning there's relatively little penalty for an additional tack or gybe giving the trail boat options. Being hard to sail well is a +/- thing. If they are, and the sailors generally ask for boats that are hard to sail well, then pressure will tell but the penalty for an error is race ending. If they aren't then it keeps the racing close but makes the lead easy to defend.

The same thing happened with symmetric and asymmetric spinnakers. "oh it has to have a symmetric spinnaker so that there's a wind shadow". Only when they started match racing with assys it turned out the racing was basically the same.

So the AC50 actually ticked a lot of boxes.

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Always strikes me that just as they are really getting to grips with the handling and tactical potential of a new class - AC50 - the whole shebang is over.

 

3 hours ago, rgeek said:

Not sure they have said that. They've, and GD in particular, have said they want it to be more nationalistic. BT has said that the nationalistic element is what raises the AC above any other JAR. It seems to be an issue for some of the backers, although ironically enough not for the main money for ETNZ obviously. I guess the ETNZ backers just like to win?

 

Are we arguing?

They want it more 'national', but are not claiming GS mandated it* - and are going about achieving this in a way that they think is the most obvious to anyone watching, i.e. crews...similarly to the thinking in the last AC in fact.

OK?

 

As to where the money comes from maybe the NZ attitude to that has something to do with the fact that the country despite it's relative geographical isolation is very connected, through export/import and tourism - scoring $$ offshore and from a company that contributes required services to the country is mostly seen as a boon rather than as anything negative. The second tier of sponsors are all traditionally NZ based companies IIRC.

*some above keep hammering on about international/Norwegian crews......way back, as if that makes the present Protocol 'false'. And while the claim there were Norwegian crews is true, it is also true that there was a tendency towards mostly 'national crews' and even mostly 'national teams' over many decades and arguably at the event's height in Fremantle and Auckland. Chicken or egg?

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I think the bigger issue with crew is Dalton trying to get stability in the teams so there are no mercenary crew asking silly money at the last minute to sail

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15 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

I think the bigger issue with crew is Dalton trying to get stability in the teams so there are no mercenary crew asking silly money at the last minute to sail

Yep, you are right, he has also been plain about that too - but it's relative 'bigness' can only be a guess.

A third impact is that it will make an Aussie challenge all the more likely.

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46 minutes ago, nav said:

Always strikes me that just as they are really getting to grips with the handling and tactical potential of a new class - AC50 - the whole shebang is over.

 

 

Are we arguing?

They want it more 'national', but are not claiming GS mandated it* - and are going about achieving this in a way that they think is the most obvious to anyone watching, i.e. crews...similarly to the thinking in the last AC in fact.

OK?

 

As to where the money comes from maybe the NZ attitude to that has something to do with the fact that the country despite it's relative geographical isolation is very connected, through export/import and tourism - scoring $$ offshore and from a company that contributes required services to the country is mostly seen as a boon rather than as anything negative. The second tier of sponsors are all traditionally NZ based companies IIRC.

*some above keep hammering on about international/Norwegian crews......way back, as if that makes the present Protocol 'false'. And while the claim there were Norwegian crews is true, it is also true that there was a tendency towards mostly 'national crews' and even mostly 'national teams' over many decades and arguably at the event's height in Fremantle and Auckland. Chicken or egg?

Arguing? Just exploring.

I'm not sure this is a move for the sake of the public. Well OK in NZ and GB may be it's a way to mug the punters for the funds for party (a party that's returned to it's exclusivity) but it strikes me that it's just what they want to do instinctively and they're finding some nice way to justify it. It seems it may be appealing to the majority of the owners want to believe they are. (self appointed) knights jousting for the nation. And that's what turns this from merely nationally representative into nationalistic.

The proposed new development structure for the entire sport of sailing is one that puts the development of and provision of services to them at the top; what ever knock on impact there is to the rest of the sport. The impact of Olympic obsession on the sport is debatable, with good and bad on both sides of the discussion. Doubled down by sticking a privately funded AC on top looks a lot like sticking a snout in the Olympic funding trough.

GD claimed he personally drafted the national and has been relatively unabashed about it being about controlling the 'workers' conditions. BT and PB both exited AC35 making noise about how, essentially, putting the sailors at the heart of the competition cheapened it.

The norwegen thing? Well if monohulls are "traditional" then so are none national crews ... up until the none consensual Rose Rule ... which predates Freo and Aukland and was immediately dropped again as soon as the Cup left NZ.

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there is always the conundrum that sailing doesnt generate any money so if you can get paid to race, good for you.

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On 07/10/2017 at 10:05 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

it's not like the AC50s tacked slowly, and I think they were great match racing boats when the boats were equal, just like the old IACC boats.  Different tactics but plenty of opportunities, again, when the boats were equal.  It wasn't common.

They might have still been travelling at high speed through the tack, but the difference between their upwind speed and the lowest speed through a tack was a larger percentage than I regard as a good tack on a leadmine, so I do wonder whether the boatlengths lost per tack are actually similar between the AC50s and a decent modern mono, and would suspect that tacking still hurts more on the AC50s.  

Plus of course tacking cost so much in terms of power requirements that teams sought to minimise them as much as possible, and the instances where teams tacked before they got to the boundary were minimal.  

Not saying that this necessarily meant a poor spectacle, but if the aim is to get "classic" match racing with multiple tacks per upwind leg and teams tacking to cover, then I'm struggling to see how boats that foil will produce this.  Would love to be proved wrong though!

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37 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

there is always the conundrum that sailing doesnt generate any money so if you can get paid to race, good for you.

yep fair play and who's to get in the way of that? ... other than the writers of the AC36 protocol obviously. "We'll sail for biscuits for our nation; there for so should everyone else", not exactly appealing to the generosity of the human spirit are they?

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2 hours ago, rgeek said:

yep fair play and who's to get in the way of that? ... other than the writers of the AC36 protocol obviously. "We'll sail for biscuits for our nation; there for so should everyone else", not exactly appealing to the generosity of the human spirit are they?

because its not a nation v nation event, its between 2 individuals from private yacht clubs.

Everyone spent a long time sailing against the NYYC not America

How is that gov funding going to sit with a voter versus funding the Olympic team?

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ETNZ are saying they want to take trad monohull into the space where they took big foiling cats and help step the monohull game up. They talk about being a pinacle to mono sailing where the the majority of boat owners can relate, and in harmony with other sailing (e.g. Vendee) and not in contrast to them, all with trickle down options. My penny guess:

  • OD wingmast with soft sails. (Sails, and running and standing rigging not OD). I would not be surprised to see new ideas on the mast like controllable battons to play with twist or flutter like a wing.. Blade jibs. High aspect kites off a sprit. I'd hope no electronic trimming aids/cameras, but it'll probably happen.
  • Hull will resemble a boat, skiff-like but narrow. Obvious flat aft sections. Rocker less critical if you're flying. Bow with buoyancy to crash off foils, but still cleave Hauraki chop and not scowed. Vestigal deck and sole minimised to structural and reserve buoyancy needs, but not normal bigboat. Minimal freeboard as boat should be rising. Self bailing without a bucket :) Hull will have crew wings, but more in the spirit of KZ1, not a 49er rack.
  • Rudder t-foil. Probably twin to allow one to aid righting moment. Big-arsed Tiller helming would be cool, but unlikely.
  • Main lift foils will sit under boat on leeward side or from centreline, not wildly outside the beam and not to weather, to allow close match racing action. I expect auto ride height by Foil contour or mechanical wands etc in order to draw focus back to sailing, not gameboy-ing. Centreboard or canards, maybe with minimal weight added but not leadmine. Righting moment control via some crew on wings, some board use, but by foils helping to self-level. Controllable foil surfaces rather than moving entire foils for ride tuning. Possible OD foils, with non-OD controllable surfaces.
  • No hydraulics for sail management. Maybe not for foil tuning either - just sinking and hoisting them.
  • etnz will be black. Prada will be fabulous. Yanks will be stolid/turgid. France1 will be a supermarché and france2 will be LV,MH and all will be nonchalantly Bretagne/Vendee scary awesome this time. Aussie will be gaudi, and weakly backed. Poms will give a knight a job hucking Indian branded cars. I'd like to see the Spaniards arrive and run competing parties to Prada, but they mightn't have the economic appetite for this round.

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14 minutes ago, HFC Hunter said:

ETNZ are saying they want to take trad monohull into the space where they took big foiling cats and help step the monohull game up. They talk about being a pinacle to mono sailing where the the majority of boat owners can relate, and in harmony with other sailing (e.g. Vendee) and not in contrast to them, all with trickle down options. My penny guess:

  • OD wingmast with soft sails. (Sails, and running and standing rigging not OD). I would not be surprised to see new ideas on the mast like controllable battons to play with twist or flutter like a wing.. Blade jibs. High aspect kites off a sprit. I'd hope no electronic trimming aids/cameras, but it'll probably happen.
  • Hull will resemble a boat, skiff-like but narrow. Obvious flat aft sections. Rocker less critical if you're flying. Bow with buoyancy to crash off foils, but still cleave Hauraki chop and not scowed. Vestigal deck and sole minimised to structural and reserve buoyancy needs, but not normal bigboat. Minimal freeboard as boat should be rising. Self bailing without a bucket :) Hull will have crew wings, but more in the spirit of KZ1, not a 49er rack.
  • Rudder t-foil. Probably twin to allow one to aid righting moment. Big-arsed Tiller helming would be cool, but unlikely.
  • Main lift foils will sit under boat on leeward side or from centreline, not wildly outside the beam and not to weather, to allow close match racing action. I expect auto ride height by Foil contour or mechanical wands etc in order to draw focus back to sailing, not gameboy-ing. Centreboard or canards, maybe with minimal weight added but not leadmine. Righting moment control via some crew on wings, some board use, but by foils helping to self-level. Controllable foil surfaces rather than moving entire foils for ride tuning. Possible OD foils, with non-OD controllable surfaces.
  • No hydraulics for sail management. Maybe not for foil tuning either - just sinking and hoisting them.
  • etnz will be black. Prada will be fabulous. Yanks will be stolid/turgid. France1 will be a supermarché and france2 will be LV,MH and all will be nonchalantly Bretagne/Vendee scary awesome this time. Aussie will be gaudi, and weakly backed. Poms will give a knight a job hucking Indian branded cars. I'd like to see the Spaniards arrive and run competing parties to Prada, but they mightn't have the economic appetite for this round.

My first penny guess it that you have a dollar guess, my second penny guess is that you are more french than token kiwi. :)

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Ditch the Keel all together

Lateral stability from the foils before foiling

Use form stability + pitch control on windward foil to create windward downforce. 

Smaller rigs, Higher speeds

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20 minutes ago, dachopper said:

Ditch the Keel all together

Lateral stability from the foils before foiling

Use form stability + pitch control on windward foil to create windward downforce. 

Smaller rigs, Higher speeds

Unless you have the foils of the size of a jumbo, I guess it's going to be difficult to keep a 75 ft. monohull upright without a keel IMHO

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If they can make Commanche work, at a beam of 8 meters,  then a 75 footer at 6-8 meters beam with control foils outside that for leverage, is now wider than an AC50...

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5 minutes ago, dachopper said:

If they can make Commanche work, at a beam of 8 meters,  then a 75 footer at 6-8 meters beam with control foils outside that for leverage, is now wider than an AC50...

It may foil in lighter wind, but most probably be slower, and surely more expensive.

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Re the cats being too fragile: remember when Dalts was saying how big the conditions where that they sailed in.  Tornado, etc and the boat was doing average 42 knots in big waves to paraphrase the video here.  

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Re the cats being too fragile: remember when Dalts was saying how big the conditions where that they sailed in.  Tornado, etc and the boat was doing average 42 knots in big waves to paraphrase the video here.  

 

 

I don't know what it is but boats just look slower with Barker driving.

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5 hours ago, Flaming said:

They might have still been travelling at high speed through the tack, but the difference between their upwind speed and the lowest speed through a tack was a larger percentage than I regard as a good tack on a leadmine, so I do wonder whether the boatlengths lost per tack are actually similar between the AC50s and a decent modern mono, and would suspect that tacking still hurts more on the AC50s.  

Plus of course tacking cost so much in terms of power requirements that teams sought to minimise them as much as possible, and the instances where teams tacked before they got to the boundary were minimal.  

Not saying that this necessarily meant a poor spectacle, but if the aim is to get "classic" match racing with multiple tacks per upwind leg and teams tacking to cover, then I'm struggling to see how boats that foil will produce this.  Would love to be proved wrong though!

 

The AC50 had all sorts of restrictions built in, it seems wrong to right-off foiling in the AC based on the AC(35) Class rule - and some thought the racing was top class as it was, so....

Then there is the influence of the ISAF AC RRS to consider as well, those will not survive as is into AC36 either

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6 hours ago, rgeek said:

BT and PB both exited AC35 making noise about how, essentially, putting the sailors at the heart of the competition cheapened it.

 

That's not how I remember either of their words on the matter.  Cite?

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