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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
DarkHorse

J70, cheating and pros

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If the cover article is anywhere true (and history says it is), I believe we have finally put a nail in the coffin that pros are a great advantage to a class. 

The class rules are 'closed' in that only changes allowed specifically in the rules, else its NOT allowed.

Hull appendages can be sanded and thats it - unless damage has been made (we must assume there is LOTS of damage in the class!!).

 

Thus any changes outside of light sanding is specifically rejected and therefore must be considered cheating. Throw in the pros whose only job is to make the boat win, and you have a terrible mix. They will likely burn through this class and onto the next - and if they get caught , they move on with no retributions (where should rule 69 come into play so that this is more than a class specific issue).

Imagine if the class leaders had to sail with class legal equipment like the rest of us do!

 

 

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What makes you think it's the pros?  Are you speaking of "pro-riggers" who may or may not just be doing what the owner has asked?  I'm not sure many of the Pro Smacticians get involved with the fairing and such with the boats. 

All in all I think you're painting with a fairly wide brush.

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28 minutes ago, TBone said:

You're faulting the Pros.

What about the Owners?

Most owners don't have a clue.

The sailmakers and others figure loop holes in the rules and have the owners do the dirty deed, and act like they know nothing.

I've seen it happen with PHRF boats up in Eastern and Western LIS 

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7 boats chucked, including three real contenders.  5 of them italian.  All with keel fairing, shimming and/or moved delrins.

 

Front page in a minute

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2 minutes ago, Icedtea said:

Amazing- to jog my memory, what was the final outcome for Mr. Greenwald's blatant cheating a few years back?

 

he voluntarily withdrew from the class for a year IIRC, and then campaigned a J/111 while he waited.

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8 minutes ago, jesposito said:

Most owners don't have a clue.

The sailmakers and others figure loop holes in the rules and have the owners do the dirty deed, and act like they know nothing.

I've seen it happen with PHRF boats up in Eastern and Western LIS 

Not the Pros getting chucked though.

Perhaps the Owners need to begin paying attention?

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We believe that hell may have actually frozen over a few hours ago.

We’re not sure how else to explain the fact that of the seven teams just thrown out of the J/70 World Championship for measurement violations – in Italy – five are Italian!  Organizers even have the support of the J/70 Italian Class despite the stature of the excluded owners, which includes the current Alcatel J/70 Cup champion and several top teams.   It’s a sign that the folks running the J/70 are taking their little boat as seriously as they have long needed to, given how prominent and huge the class has become since their first Worlds barely 3 years ago.

As past competitors in the Class, we’re not surprised to see the hammer finally drop on some of the over-the-top mods that have been creeping in since the get go, but we are definitely surprised and quite impressed to see it happen in a place that’s notorious for ‘turbo” Italian one-design entries that get away with it (anyone remember the Melges 24 bulb with chines or the Farr 40 that floated 2″ high of her lines? We do).  We’re also not saying that the DSQ’d boats are full of outright cheaters rather than opportunists taking advantage of Class Measurement guidelines and tools that were less than precise, but the hammer doesn’t care what the nail looks like, as long as it is a nail. Those rules and tools have now been tightened up, which should mean fairer racing for everyone in this huge fleet.  Bravo, J/70 Class admins and measurers, and bravo, Italia!

21462447_377385739347036_475984033108442Anyway, the official notice is on your left.  From Italy, the DSQ’d boats are Achille Onorato’s Mascalzone Latino Jr (Francesco Bruni, tactician), Allesandro Molla’s Viva (Nicollo Bianchi, tactician), Marco Salvi’s Vertigo (from Porto Cervo, the event host!), Claudio Dutto’s Asante Sana, prior Worlds podium finisher Carlo Alberini’s Calvi Network(Branco Brcin, tactician), Mauro Mocchegiani’s Rush Diletta (Matteo Ivaldi, tactician), and the Alex Semenov’s Russian-owned New Territories (tactics by Pottuguese J/80 and SB20 World Champion Hugo Rocha).  We’re not sure whether this makes those pros more marketable or less marketable, but you might want to double check their work the next time they say ‘it’s legal, don’t worry’ before your big regatta!

Is this another case of pro sailors ruining a class, or does this kind of thing only happen when Classes slack on their measurement controls?  And is the J/70 Class’s action signs of great governance to come?  We’ll find out when SA brings our coverage to the J/70 Worlds on Wednesday (if the Mistral has shut down by then, that is!) . Until then, there’s of course a thread…

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There's like 9 America's Cup sailors on the crews of those excluded boats, including the current helmsman for Luna Rossa...

 

 

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1 minute ago, james3232 said:

What does a delrin mod do?

I believe it allows the keel to drop lower.

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Check the three Brazilian boats two of them are well known for having boats that do not measure at all 

capim canela used to sail j24 measured with a toolbox weighting 70 kilos that went off the boat to the tender every race 

 

manda chuva used to have his j 24 boats built with concentrated weight by the manufacturer that sailed with them

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Bravo to the J70 International Class and the J70 Italian Class.  This is from the FB page from the Italians:

J/70 Italian Class Following recent irregular modifications discovered during the 2017 Worlds measurement process, the J/70 Italian Class wishes to make a statement regarding the situation:

With the benefit of past experience and recognizing the need to maintain the str
ictest One-Design standards, the current Council has invested in two new measurers with the knowledge and tools necessary to ensure the strictest compliance with Class Rules.

Thanks to this foresight and the oversight of the International J/70 Class, the Porto Cervo Worlds measurement process highlighted the non-compliance of some boats, especially regarding keel irregularities.

The Class Regulations leave no room for interpretation. No modification is allowed to J/70s other than minor repairs of imperfections and blemishes.

Those who were found with irregularities at the time of measurement clearly violated the Class Rules by giving themselves an illegal advantage over the fleet. Those early rules violations also may have influenced other owners. In any case, these violations are also a breach of the values of sportsmanship and fairness on which the J/70 Italian Class is founded.

The Italian Class has immediately sought further investigation of the situation and has requested that the Organizing Authority and the International Jury express their opinion on the eligibility of all boats in question at the Audi J/70 World Championship.

Regardless of whether the boats are accepted by the Worlds Organizers, the Italian J/70 Class reserves the right to take disciplinary actions against Italian Class Members responsible for illegal tampering with their boats.

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54 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he voluntarily withdrew from the class for a year IIRC, and then campaigned a J/111 while he waited.

Greenwald was banned from the Class for 18 months, not a voluntary withdraw.

The carbon rudder was not used/measured at the 2014 Worlds. The subsequent keel mods at Key West 2015 is what got him suspended from the Class.

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If I remember correctly, at least one of those boats had a keel issue in SF last year. I would've thought 12 months was long enough to get it fixed ;-)

 

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I used to be a sail maker and was part of the 'win on Sunday sell on Monday' mentality. It was important that I did well when I raced because $$$ followed.  Yes, cheating was pervasive, even back in the 1970's.  But, there were some people who were just better sailors and they gravitated to the industry.  I quit the dinghy racing circuit when a spotty faced 16 year old kid showed me that new talent was about to take over.  I decided to quit while I was ahead.

That spotty faced kid's name was Ian Pinnel, who went on to become the owner of Pinnel and Bax sail makers in the UK and win 17 national and 4 world championships (and that was back in 2001).  Knowing Ians abilities I recruited him to be my tactician for KWRW in 2001.  Without him I would not have won my division.  Ian is now a pro, but he was ALWAYS a better sailor than me.

 

Some people are just better. 

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what does that have to do with anything... some people are just better?  JFC then why are those that are "better" (pros)  purposefully  tampering with the Delrons to get your keel lower in the box? so they can cheat the measurement and insure they have a better paycheck next week.

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The actions of the International Class AND the Eyeties is perfect.  Chuck the "OWNERS" from the championship, and oh, by the way, expect to hear from us regarding the unsportsmanlike conduct, sooner than later. 

Any "Pros" involved will find the effects then, and possibly, the back end of this current paycheck.  If a "Pro" have anything to do with actual cheating, it will come out in the wash.

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1 hour ago, 2savage said:

I used to be a sail maker and was part of the 'win on Sunday sell on Monday' mentality. It was important that I did well when I raced because $$$ followed.  Yes, cheating was pervasive, even back in the 1970's.  But, there were some people who were just better sailors and they gravitated to the industry.  I quit the dinghy racing circuit when a spotty faced 16 year old kid showed me that new talent was about to take over.  I decided to quit while I was ahead.

That spotty faced kid's name was Ian Pinnel, who went on to become the owner of Pinnel and Bax sail makers in the UK and win 17 national and 4 world championships (and that was back in 2001).  Knowing Ians abilities I recruited him to be my tactician for KWRW in 2001.  Without him I would not have won my division.  Ian is now a pro, but he was ALWAYS a better sailor than me.

 

Some people are just better. 

Now that is a great story. Not sure what le fuck it has to do with J70s measurement issues, but a great story nonetheless. 

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When the owners stand up and tell all about who came up with and who did the illegal work, and they ALL get named and chucked by ISAF will we start to see some improvement - until then, expect to see an ongoing reduction in class racing, especially in the corinthian ranks.  There are tens of thousands of sailors that follow the letter and intent of the rules (you don't put your engine in gear, you don't use over sized sails, etc.) - the numbers of Italians are inflated since its in Italy (unless everyone else knows how to get around the measurements). Greenwald clearly cheated twice - and yet he still was out sailing the next week - he just had the money to change boats.

 

fI the pros on the disqualified boats took a rule 69 hit for it, then they will ensure their boats are legal ( and no I don't buy that one of the three pros on the boat doesn't know whats going on- the owners are not allowed to make changes like that without 'permission'). If the pros really didn't know what was going on and got caught in the muck, then they can sue the offending owner for lost wages for the year. Imagine how this crap would get cleaned up!!

 

(they give suspensions for a little pot use but clear out and out cheating is hit by a simple withdrawal? - do they get their entry fees back?)

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Quite a few J-70s have passed through  my shop. 

For me it is just like it was 40 years ago with J-24s. I have always read the rules before touching the boats. 

As a fellow who loves to race one design sailboats I love to make my competitors boat just as fast as I am allowed to make my own boat. Throughout the 1980s I had the privilege to race in fifty to sixty boat fleet's of J-24s where every one of the top fifteen finishers had keels shaped in my shop by me to be as exactly alike as my skills could produce. No boat won because it had a special keel and none lost because its keel wasn't as good. 

 

Re-focusing on the J-70:

i have told every owner, "I can fix things to be as new and polish but I am not allowed to do anything that might give you an advantage over a stock boat.  If I Fair your hull your boat will be illegal for racing and worthless."

There is a set of rules and those rules define the game. Nobody can play with you if you won't play by the same rules. 

I am happy to see the J-70 class is doing its job. 

I think the IYRU or whatever we call our world sailing government needs to ban EVERYBODY who was involved with this cheating ring and by so doing will enhance the quality of the game for years to come. 

 

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4 hours ago, TBone said:

Not the Pros getting chucked though.

Perhaps the Owners need to begin paying attention?

Yes Sir you are correct

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3 hours ago, 2savage said:

I used to be a sail maker and was part of the 'win on Sunday sell on Monday' mentality. It was important that I did well when I raced because $$$ followed.  Yes, cheating was pervasive, even back in the 1970's.  But, there were some people who were just better sailors and they gravitated to the industry.  I quit the dinghy racing circuit when a spotty faced 16 year old kid showed me that new talent was about to take over.  I decided to quit while I was ahead.

That spotty faced kid's name was Ian Pinnel, who went on to become the owner of Pinnel and Bax sail makers in the UK and win 17 national and 4 world championships (and that was back in 2001).  Knowing Ians abilities I recruited him to be my tactician for KWRW in 2001.  Without him I would not have won my division.  Ian is now a pro, but he was ALWAYS a better sailor than me.

 

Some people are just better. 

Wasn't that the we swept you in all 8 races?

LOL

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"Those who were found with irregularities at the time of measurement clearly violated the Class Rules by giving themselves an illegal advantage over the fleet. Those early rules violations also may have influenced other owners."

I believe what this is referring to is the fact that other racers pulled out of the regatta before they were measured - but - after boats started getting picked off by the measurers.  When you submit a boat to measurement with intent to compete, you are going down an irreversible path.  If you are found to have knowingly violated a rule - you open yourself up to additional scrutiny by the sport.  You're at a World-level event - you better know what you are doing and you better know your boat is compliant with the written rules...  not what others have been getting away with before the technical committee caught up.  There is a difference.  

What competitors have been getting away with at past regattas and what the rules specify are two different things.  

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This is great. Finally a one design class and the local class national authority are doing something besides wave their hands and not do anything. 

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14 minutes ago, Lumpydog said:

"Those who were found with irregularities at the time of measurement clearly violated the Class Rules by giving themselves an illegal advantage over the fleet. Those early rules violations also may have influenced other owners."

I believe what this is referring to is the fact that other racers pulled out of the regatta before they were measured - but - after boats started getting picked off by the measurers. 

I guess we will need to look at the list of late withdrawals to identify the rest of the guilty by association.

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Not sure about your assumption re: late withdrawals. I see sail and hull numbers listed on the notice, not competitor's names. Could be that the protested boats are no longer eligible, though the competitors are. May be that the boat can be replaced? Certainly prior to measurement... also could replace any/all parts prior to measurement.

...if it is known by the competitor that said boat/parts will not measure,  would be a scramble to get boats/parts to the regatta site that will!

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

Wasn't that the we swept you in all 8 races?

LOL

No John, that was the year before.  And that's why the thread 'Espo is a dick' is one of the longest running threads on this forum.  Thanks for confirming it just one more time. 

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Good job by the class. Cheating is cheating and it should always be stamped down. Now the finger pointing begins, but it is just as important not to blame the wrong people as it is to blame the right ones and I feel some of the comments above miss the mark.

First and foremost, the blame lies with the owner. Very few people of low intelligence get to own yachts like these. If you are going to buy a yacht and compete, you need to know the rules. If it were your business, you couldn't get away with saying 'I was too busy so i leave rules/laws to other people". The buck stops with the owner and I cannot believe that any of the owners involved do not know the rules. It might be a case of thinking that because others are doing it you need to as well, but to suggest an owner doesn't know a fairly simple set of rules is BS.

The next group who need to be pulled up are the ones doing the work on these boats. If you work on top class yachts fairing keels etc, you know the rules. It is that simple. To say you didn't know that fairing the keel and rehanging it was against class rules is not acceptable from these guys.

Then there are the pros and IMO, this is where it gets difficult. I accept that some pros act as boat captain and those pros are equally culpable as the owners and those who do the work. Then there are the hired guns at the back of the boat. Most of them fly in and out for the regatta and sail the boat as they find it. I really wonder if they are saying to the owners 'have you faired the keel" or similar. If they are involved with planning the whole campaign and that includes discussions on boat prep, they should be dealt with but i suspect that many at the back don't get that involved in that area, simply expecting the boat to be prepared spot on.

Let's be careful not to burn everybody, but make sure that those who are really responsible for what is cheating are dealt with accordingly.

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2 minutes ago, james crum said:

There is a distinction, cheating vs. out of measurement. You guys should put down the tiki torches. I believe the goal is to have a fair fleet.... not a lynching.

If they could bring the boats into measurement compliance easily, I'm sure the measurers would have allowed them to do so. Do you understand who got flicked, and the position their family(ies) hold in the sport in Italy? The only way a couple of these boats get flicked is for flat out cheating because the repercussions of flicking a couple of these guys for just being a bit of compliance when it would be easy to remedy would just never happen.

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Well since the only way to be out of measurement on standardized keels is by cheating (since NOTHING can be done to the keels except polishing.I read the class rules..), I think your point is moot. This is not a case of slight overage of a sail measurement - this is clearly overt actions to gain unfair advantage by specific and illegal means.

 

This class has a history of this, just as there are a few other classes in the same size that have had like issues. Those classes have been all but destroyed by this type of activity - finally a class had stood up and said 'no more' - and now its up to the national authorities to take the lead on cleaning this up. Either that or jsut let the rest of the class members vote if they are willing to let each of these specifically identified 'teams' to ever sail again - after all, what else have they gotten away with that hasn't been caught (and maybe the boats should be permanently banned as well?)

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32 minutes ago, notherday said:

Well since the only way to be out of measurement on standardized keels is by cheating (since NOTHING can be done to the keels except polishing.I read the class rules..), I think your point is moot. This is not a case of slight overage of a sail measurement - this is clearly overt actions to gain unfair advantage by specific and illegal means.

I can't seem to find a template in the rules for a definition of a "legal" j/70 keel?

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It is a mess.  The boats are not built with enough quality control so as to be truly identical. There are NO templates to adjust the boat to those standards. Some boats have been taking advantage of that opening.  It accelerated massively in the past 12 months as there was almost zero enforcement and people were getting tired of seeing their competition jump to the top of the Fleet after a brief hiatus at the local optimizer shed.  It's made the boats much more expensive to own, and owners who want to follow the rules are left left in the dust.  Next question will be how to in-optimize those boats.  There are so many' particularly at the top of the Fleet. Are they out forever?

Edited by frostbit
Missed a word

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 “With the benefit of past experience and recognizing the need to maintain the strictest One-Design standards, the current Council has invested in two new measurers with the knowledge and tools necessary to ensure the strictest compliance with Class Rules.”

Who are the two new measurers? What are the tools? My guess is some level of keel templates/measurement tools exist now - that measure thickness (thinness) at key points and also keel depth at rest. Just because it couldn't be measured/checked in the past doesn't mean it can't be measured for compliance in the future.  
 
What the tech committee are not checking now - can be checked and enforced at any time.  If you modified something that the rules did not say you may modify - then you are out of compliance.  The technical committee learns and adjusts - you can expect more ways to cheat and more ways to get caught.  Right?  
 
I think its great that the class is doing this - keep at it. 
 
 THESE RULES ARE CLOSED CLASS RULES WHERE IF IT DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT YOU “MAY” THEN YOU “SHALL NOT.” 

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I don't see what help templates would be. If you have two boats with identical hulls and foils, one can be legal because it came out of the factory that way and the other illegal because it was modified to be that way. Some classes have rules that allow modifications to some things as long as the results are within a specified tolerance; the J/70 fleet does not appear to be one of those classes.

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Is it just me, or this happening more in Italy than elsewhere? I remember Italian teams shaping keels in the Melges 24 (with Nicola Celon even loosing a keel in a windy North German European Championship back in 2007), the recent Scugnizza DSQ in the 2016 ORC Europeans in Greece, the rule bending in the 2016 ORC Sportboat Europeans in Italy to allow non sportboats to the fleet, and now this in Porto Cervo... Not that I am full with prejudices (actually I like Italy), but this is a bit more than just co-incidence... 

 

 

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I can't believe some of you. Cheating is cheating. It's like pregnancy. It is absolute. If the rules say you cannot modify or fair the keel, it doesn't matter why you do it. If you do it you are cheating. Worse, the only reason to do it is to improve the performance of the boat. 

There really is no excuse and it doesn't matter how big a difference you might think it makes, it is straight out cheating. All the people responsible need to be held to account.

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13 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

7 boats chucked, including three real contenders.  5 of them italian.  All with keel fairing, shimming and/or moved delrins.

 

Front page in a minute

It's great that SA will be there, I have a lot of friends from Vigo heading there. I'll be following the race with interest...

 

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13 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

We believe that hell may have actually frozen over a few hours ago.

We’re not sure how else to explain the fact that of the seven teams just thrown out of the J/70 World Championship for measurement violations – in Italy – five are Italian!  Organizers even have the support of the J/70 Italian Class despite the stature of the excluded owners, which includes the current Alcatel J/70 Cup champion and several top teams.   It’s a sign that the folks running the J/70 are taking their little boat as seriously as they have long needed to, given how prominent and huge the class has become since their first Worlds barely 3 years ago.

As past competitors in the Class, we’re not surprised to see the hammer finally drop on some of the over-the-top mods that have been creeping in since the get go, but we are definitely surprised and quite impressed to see it happen in a place that’s notorious for ‘turbo” Italian one-design entries that get away with it (anyone remember the Melges 24 bulb with chines or the Farr 40 that floated 2″ high of her lines? We do).  We’re also not saying that the DSQ’d boats are full of outright cheaters rather than opportunists taking advantage of Class Measurement guidelines and tools that were less than precise, but the hammer doesn’t care what the nail looks like, as long as it is a nail. Those rules and tools have now been tightened up, which should mean fairer racing for everyone in this huge fleet.  Bravo, J/70 Class admins and measurers, and bravo, Italia!

21462447_377385739347036_475984033108442Anyway, the official notice is on your left.  From Italy, the DSQ’d boats are Achille Onorato’s Mascalzone Latino Jr (Francesco Bruni, tactician), Allesandro Molla’s Viva (Nicollo Bianchi, tactician), Marco Salvi’s Vertigo (from Porto Cervo, the event host!), Claudio Dutto’s Asante Sana, prior Worlds podium finisher Carlo Alberini’s Calvi Network(Branco Brcin, tactician), Mauro Mocchegiani’s Rush Diletta (Matteo Ivaldi, tactician), and the Alex Semenov’s Russian-owned New Territories (tactics by Pottuguese J/80 and SB20 World Champion Hugo Rocha).  We’re not sure whether this makes those pros more marketable or less marketable, but you might want to double check their work the next time they say ‘it’s legal, don’t worry’ before your big regatta!

Is this another case of pro sailors ruining a class, or does this kind of thing only happen when Classes slack on their measurement controls?  And is the J/70 Class’s action signs of great governance to come?  We’ll find out when SA brings our coverage to the J/70 Worlds on Wednesday (if the Mistral has shut down by then, that is!) . Until then, there’s of course a thread…

As apparently is very important to underline name and NATIONALITIES of the "evil pros" behind the scene, I think it will be a pitty to forget to list the tactician of the italian event host(!) Vertigo.........the olympic medalist Charlie McKee.........from USA............

Please rectify...if we care about clear news...

Thanks

 

 

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I am at the event (although not racing) and saw the photos and talked with some of the poobahs last night.  It's definitely not a question of production tolerances, the mods (if not done by the same shop) all have the same design philosophy.  And the list is not the full list of boats that were caught, it's just the list of those who chose to fight the measurers.  Other boats just packed up and left quietly.  The national and international class organizations, administrators and measurers are working really hard to do the right thing, it's great to see them getting some credit for doing so.

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How many of these ^^^ boats are likely to be just as quietly sold to unwitting (or not) buyers only to reappear at other venues where the inspections may not be as stringent?

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FP: "Is this another case of pro sailors ruining a class, or does this kind of thing only happen when Classes slack on their measurement controls?  And is the J/70 Class’s action signs of great governance to come?  We’ll find out when SA brings our coverage to the J/70 Worlds on Wednesday..."

Could you be more of a drama queen, Alan?

 

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34 minutes ago, Annapolis 105er said:

I am at the event (although not racing) and saw the photos and talked with some of the poobahs last night.  It's definitely not a question of production tolerances, the mods (if not done by the same shop) all have the same design philosophy.  And the list is not the full list of boats that were caught, it's just the list of those who chose to fight the measurers.  Other boats just packed up and left quietly.  The national and international class organizations, administrators and measurers are working really hard to do the right thing, it's great to see them getting some credit for doing so.

Thank you for your on site Information!

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Seems like this class has gone the way of the J24's back in the 80's & 90's. The Etchells had th same issues with keels positioned oddly in the 90's. 

As the sun rose and set on the Jays on the handstand at the 1988 Worlds at Royal Sydney YS you could see through some of the hullls above the waterline better than others while certain boats were craned in with people on board to hide the waterline  attitude some of the boats had. Everyone knew but it's the application of rules that matter s and it's  good to see this happening anywhere in sailing. 

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Glad to see the Class at the National and International level taking this seriously.  As said above - cheating is cheating and it is very clear in the Class Rules "These rules are closed class rules where if it does not specifically say that you "may" them you "shall not".  Owners go into mods eyes wide open...  The "shop" will make'em pay for said mods, they ain't free...

It seemed like this class when we entered it was simply a "get as many boats made as fast as possible and we'll worry about the rules later".  Sure there was a general framework, but adherence was not mandatory.  Why?  Because there were no measurement processes at many large events, and even at those large events the tools were not available to adequately measure 50-75 boats.

How many events prior to being caught have the boats that failed measurement won?  I suspect there'd be a number of second/third/fourth place folks that are pissed right now. 

The buck stops with the owner and boat captain, but the pros gladly and willingly sign-up to go with the top boats (on legal or illegal boats).  They want to win as well. Given the opportunity to sail with a top 10 finisher or a middle 30s finisher for the same $$$$.  Guess where they go?  It's way better for the resume to sail with the top finishers.

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

7 boats chucked, including three real contenders.  5 of them italian.  All with keel fairing, shimming and/or moved delrins.

 

Front page in a minute

Didn't Greenwald get chucked from KWRW a couple of years back for moving delrins ?  

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he voluntarily withdrew from the class for a year IIRC, and then campaigned a J/111 while he waited.

And, coincidentally, greenwald bought a low hull number which features stanchions that are canted outwards.  The first 8 or 9 (I think) J/111's have them...then J Boats changed the design spec to stanchions that aren't canted out and grandfathered in those early hulls.  That guy is always looking for an edge ;-)

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This is long past due... and I commend the class for taking action on this... though the class and J-boats has to take some blame for creating the situation in the first place.  We have not had the tools to adequately measure keels and people predictably have filled the void.  The builders have steadfastly refused to provide templates and other measurement tools.  This is basically because there are wild variances in the keels as they come from the factory.  There are multiple molds per builder and now multiple builders and tolerances are not strictly enforced.  Moreover, the design of the keel Delrins has varied widely and changed over time.  If you have an early boat (as I do) you can't even order replacements as the originals break down (they break down and break apart...).   You have to heavily modify those that are available on the market.  The originals are much thinner.  Add to this a crap keel box design that results in sometimes heavy damage (i.e. structural damage, not just scratches) from trailing with the keel up (too small to insert adequate protection, too large to hold snugly in place) there is MORE than enough reason to be regularly removing the keels form the boats totally legitimately.  Most serious programs have gone to expensive keel down trailers for this reason... So you have a situation where it is totally reasonable to be pulling keels, Delrins, etc on a regular basis and no ability to measure after repairs to make sure the boats are in spec... what the hell did they think people were going to do??... There is a rule now that you have to have your boat re-certified every time you pull your keel, but the class measurement folks have zero ability to tell if say the new Delrins you had to cut up and sand down after getting them resulted in a keel that is in the "right" place... because there is no "right" place.  The "right" place is where it originally sat from the factory, but that differs from boat to boat.  Without widely available measurement tools there is no way to tell even for us folks who AREN'T trying to cheat.  But the builders REFUSED to provide these because they don't want to be found selling boats out of spec or have to spend the money to tighten up the quality controls.  Make no mistake this situation started with the builders.  The only solution is widely available templates.  Unfortunately this probably means many unaltered boats won't measure in.  The whole thing is a total mess and it is no wonder people abused the system.  At least they are STARTING to do something about it. 

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27 minutes ago, Olson_30_Guy said:

This is long past due... and I commend the class for taking action on this... though the class and J-boats has to take some blame for creating the situation in the first place.  We have not had the tools to adequately measure keels and people predictably have filled the void.  The builders have steadfastly refused to provide templates and other measurement tools.  This is basically because there are wild variances in the keels as they come from the factory.  There are multiple molds per builder and now multiple builders and tolerances are not strictly enforced.  Moreover, the design of the keel Delrins has varied widely and changed over time.  If you have an early boat (as I do) you can't even order replacements as the originals break down (they break down and break apart...).   You have to heavily modify those that are available on the market.  The originals are much thinner.  Add to this a crap keel box design that results in sometimes heavy damage (i.e. structural damage, not just scratches) from trailing with the keel up (too small to insert adequate protection, too large to hold snugly in place) there is MORE than enough reason to be regularly removing the keels form the boats totally legitimately.  Most serious programs have gone to expensive keel down trailers for this reason... So you have a situation where it is totally reasonable to be pulling keels, Delrins, etc on a regular basis and no ability to measure after repairs to make sure the boats are in spec... what the hell did they think people were going to do??... There is a rule now that you have to have your boat re-certified every time you pull your keel, but the class measurement folks have zero ability to tell if say the new Delrins you had to cut up and sand down after getting them resulted in a keel that is in the "right" place... because there is no "right" place.  The "right" place is where it originally sat from the factory, but that differs from boat to boat.  Without widely available measurement tools there is no way to tell even for us folks who AREN'T trying to cheat.  But the builders REFUSED to provide these because they don't want to be found selling boats out of spec or have to spend the money to tighten up the quality controls.  Make no mistake this situation started with the builders.  The only solution is widely available templates.  Unfortunately this probably means many unaltered boats won't measure in.  The whole thing is a total mess and it is no wonder people abused the system.  At least they are STARTING to do something about it. 

Spot on. Templates are absolutely required to rectify this situation. It also provides a path for all modified boats to be re-modified back into the class. 

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2 hours ago, Annapolis 105er said:

I am at the event (although not racing) and saw the photos and talked with some of the poobahs last night.  It's definitely not a question of production tolerances, the mods (if not done by the same shop) all have the same design philosophy.  And the list is not the full list of boats that were caught, it's just the list of those who chose to fight the measurers.  Other boats just packed up and left quietly.  The national and international class organizations, administrators and measurers are working really hard to do the right thing, it's great to see them getting some credit for doing so.

 

32 minutes ago, Olson_30_Guy said:

This is long past due... and I commend the class for taking action on this... though the class and J-boats has to take some blame for creating the situation in the first place.  We have not had the tools to adequately measure keels and people predictably have filled the void.  The builders have steadfastly refused to provide templates and other measurement tools.  This is basically because there are wild variances in the keels as they come from the factory.  There are multiple molds per builder and now multiple builders and tolerances are not strictly enforced.  Moreover, the design of the keel Delrins has varied widely and changed over time.  If you have an early boat (as I do) you can't even order replacements as the originals break down (they break down and break apart...).   You have to heavily modify those that are available on the market.  The originals are much thinner.  Add to this a crap keel box design that results in sometimes heavy damage (i.e. structural damage, not just scratches) from trailing with the keel up (too small to insert adequate protection, too large to hold snugly in place) there is MORE than enough reason to be regularly removing the keels form the boats totally legitimately.  Most serious programs have gone to expensive keel down trailers for this reason... So you have a situation where it is totally reasonable to be pulling keels, Delrins, etc on a regular basis and no ability to measure after repairs to make sure the boats are in spec... what the hell did they think people were going to do??... There is a rule now that you have to have your boat re-certified every time you pull your keel, but the class measurement folks have zero ability to tell if say the new Delrins you had to cut up and sand down after getting them resulted in a keel that is in the "right" place... because there is no "right" place.  The "right" place is where it originally sat from the factory, but that differs from boat to boat.  Without widely available measurement tools there is no way to tell even for us folks who AREN'T trying to cheat.  But the builders REFUSED to provide these because they don't want to be found selling boats out of spec or have to spend the money to tighten up the quality controls.  Make no mistake this situation started with the builders.  The only solution is widely available templates.  Unfortunately this probably means many unaltered boats won't measure in.  The whole thing is a total mess and it is no wonder people abused the system.  At least they are STARTING to do something about it. 

Great info guys, thanks a lot.

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Understand all that - maybe then it's just a huge co-incidence that 90% of the boats that were busted were Italian.......maybe they got a bad batch......

I don't think so.....

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Anyone else remember the Peterson 48 Williwaw, back in the day?  Got in trouble for having lead shot in the spreader tips, to cheat the IOR inclination or "tip" test.  Dennis Conner was absolved of any complicity, or knowledge of the cheating, as the BN fell on his sword!!  Some things never change...

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13 hours ago, bpm57 said:

I can't seem to find a template in the rules for a definition of a "legal" j/70 keel?

you didn't read them very closely did you?

From the class rules:

(c) Gelcoat scratches and minimal damaged areas and minor molding imperfections such as print-through may be sanded and repaired, provided the as-molded shape in not altered

(d) Modification of the keel wedges is prohibited.

From the builder spec:

42 Keel Builder supplied. Option for builder provided and installed weed cutter. Trailing edge may be lightly blocked to "square" or bevel off no more than 45 degrees.

43 Keel wedges Builder supplied and located. No modification of wedges permitted.

 

Not sure how much more of a template you need. if you mean actual keel templates, they'd be useless to an owner since you can't fair the keel, full-stop.

 

Edit: Olson30, you have a really good point. AIUI, in order to keep the costs low, the J70 production in the US went to basically a small shop and the tolerances are shite. I've heard of at least 1 J70 that needed a replacement keel from the factory and it didn't fit the boat that needed the replacement.

Whether owners need access to the templates or not is still debatable, but it's clear that measurement points need to be established and published, if not in the class rules then in the builder's specs. bpm, I take it back a little bit - the class rules and builders specs don't give enough information for owners to stay out of jail.

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33 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

Anyone else remember the Peterson 48 Williwaw, back in the day?  Got in trouble for having lead shot in the spreader tips, to cheat the IOR inclination or "tip" test.  Dennis Conner was absolved of any complicity, or knowledge of the cheating, as the BN fell on his sword!!  Some things never change...

about the same with Dr. Laura a few years ago, right?

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12 minutes ago, ryley said:

you didn't read them very closely did you?

From the class rules:

(c) Gelcoat scratches and minimal damaged areas and minor molding imperfections such as print-through may be sanded and repaired, provided the as-molded shape in not altered

(d) Modification of the keel wedges is prohibited.

From the builder spec:

42 Keel Builder supplied. Option for builder provided and installed weed cutter. Trailing edge may be lightly blocked to "square" or bevel off no more than 45 degrees.

43 Keel wedges Builder supplied and located. No modification of wedges permitted.

 

Not sure how much more of a template you need. if you mean actual keel templates, they'd be useless to an owner since you can't fair the keel, full-stop.

 

Edit: Olson30, you have a really good point. AIUI, in order to keep the costs low, the J70 production in the US went to basically a small shop and the tolerances are shite. I've heard of at least 1 J70 that needed a replacement keel from the factory and it didn't fit the boat that needed the replacement.

Whether owners need access to the templates or not is still debatable, but it's clear that measurement points need to be established and published, if not in the class rules then in the builder's specs. bpm, I take it back a little bit - the class rules and builders specs don't give enough information for owners to stay out of jail.

For me the issue is repairing, not fairing... for instance to replace my wedges (in a first run 2012 boat) I have to basically cut the replacements in half with a band saw lengthwise, then sand them down, then make final adjustments in the boat itself.  And that is working from duplicating wedges that are falling apart....  Remember wedges on later boats are significantly larger, the hole patterns differ, the keel boxes themselves are different.  Now you tell me that the keel I have just "repaired" is in the same place as the one that was in the boat from the factory... In other instances hitting a large pothole while trailering required grinding out and rebuilding a large section of the keel... you tell me if my keel holds the same shape/profile as it was from the factory...  THIS is the grey area in which rampant cheating has occurred.  It is perfectly reasonable for anyone to argue that they need remove keels and wedges and work on them.   Who is to say they went back in the same place??? Without clear tools and templates it simply invites cheating.  This was easily predictable. 

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2 hours ago, Olson_30_Guy said:

This is long past due... and I commend the class for taking action on this... though the class and J-boats has to take some blame for creating the situation in the first place.  We have not had the tools to adequately measure keels and people predictably have filled the void.  The builders have steadfastly refused to provide templates and other measurement tools.  This is basically because there are wild variances in the keels as they come from the factory.  There are multiple molds per builder and now multiple builders and tolerances are not strictly enforced.  Moreover, the design of the keel Delrins has varied widely and changed over time.  If you have an early boat (as I do) you can't even order replacements as the originals break down (they break down and break apart...).   You have to heavily modify those that are available on the market.  The originals are much thinner.  Add to this a crap keel box design that results in sometimes heavy damage (i.e. structural damage, not just scratches) from trailing with the keel up (too small to insert adequate protection, too large to hold snugly in place) there is MORE than enough reason to be regularly removing the keels form the boats totally legitimately.  Most serious programs have gone to expensive keel down trailers for this reason... So you have a situation where it is totally reasonable to be pulling keels, Delrins, etc on a regular basis and no ability to measure after repairs to make sure the boats are in spec... what the hell did they think people were going to do??... There is a rule now that you have to have your boat re-certified every time you pull your keel, but the class measurement folks have zero ability to tell if say the new Delrins you had to cut up and sand down after getting them resulted in a keel that is in the "right" place... because there is no "right" place.  The "right" place is where it originally sat from the factory, but that differs from boat to boat.  Without widely available measurement tools there is no way to tell even for us folks who AREN'T trying to cheat.  But the builders REFUSED to provide these because they don't want to be found selling boats out of spec or have to spend the money to tighten up the quality controls.  Make no mistake this situation started with the builders.  The only solution is widely available templates.  Unfortunately this probably means many unaltered boats won't measure in.  The whole thing is a total mess and it is no wonder people abused the system.  At least they are STARTING to do something about it. 

More elements of the situation:

The Class is builder controlled, as opposed to measurement controlled. The Class and J Boats (as in 99% of J Boats classes) do not provide templates or measurement data. There is not true measurement. It is compliance inspection.

Building/construction "standards" are a moving target. J/70 is +/- $55,000 boat, with a standardization across two primary builders that is pretty tight. A tighter standard across the builders, and within one of the builders, can be had. The casual reference to "build them better and more consistent" comes with a price. It is a relatively simple project to reduce tolerance and increase standardization. The price goes up with that change. A $100k J/70 would be easy to produce, but how many would be sold? A balance has to be achieved.

No Class has ever seen the meteoric growth of the J/70. The Class management, J Boats, ISAF and the builders struggled to keep up at first, but are making substantial progress. It really is not that bad, is it? 1400+ boats and four World Championships in 5 years,  with 170 today in Italy. Not a total mess....

 

 

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8 minutes ago, sham69 said:

More elements of the situation:

The Class is builder controlled, as opposed to measurement controlled. The Class and J Boats (as in 99% of J Boats classes) do not provide templates or measurement data. There is not true measurement. It is compliance inspection.

Building/construction "standards" are a moving target. J/70 is +/- $55,000 boat, with a standardization across two primary builders that is pretty tight. A tighter standard across the builders, and within one of the builders, can be had. The casual reference to "build them better and more consistent" comes with a price. It is a relatively simple project to reduce tolerance and increase standardization. The price goes up with that change. A $100k J/70 would be easy to produce, but how many would be sold? A balance has to be achieved.

No Class has ever seen the meteoric growth of the J/70. The Class management, J Boats, ISAF and the builders struggled to keep up at first, but are making substantial progress. It really is not that bad, is it? 1400+ boats and four World Championships in 5 years,  with 170 today in Italy. Not a total mess....

 

 

In the 80s Japanese auto manufacturers demonstrated that consistency and quality lowered manufacturing costs.  US auto manufacturers have caught, up time for boat builders to learn the same lesson.

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All the dinghy classes learned this problem decades ago.
J-boats obviously either didn't listen, doesn't want to listen, or has some other motive.

In dinghies such as 14, 505, GP14, merlin etc you have a clear set of measurements to keep to. That is the only way to be fair.
You can't be fair by saying stuff such as, "you cannot modify"  because stuff wears out, gets damaged etc. IF you don't have a standard to measure to during repair, you are not going to match the original....

 

But this is really a problem with other "SMOD" classes too. Laser for instance. To get a good one you need to buy 10 and find one out of the 10 that is good.

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53 minutes ago, Olson_30_Guy said:

For me the issue is repairing, not fairing... for instance to replace my wedges (in a first run 2012 boat) I have to basically cut the replacements in half with a band saw lengthwise, then sand them down, then make final adjustments in the boat itself.  And that is working from duplicating wedges that are falling apart....  Remember wedges on later boats are significantly larger, the hole patterns differ, the keel boxes themselves are different.  Now you tell me that the keel I have just "repaired" is in the same place as the one that was in the boat from the factory... In other instances hitting a large pothole while trailering required grinding out and rebuilding a large section of the keel... you tell me if my keel holds the same shape/profile as it was from the factory...  THIS is the grey area in which rampant cheating has occurred.  It is perfectly reasonable for anyone to argue that they need remove keels and wedges and work on them.   Who is to say they went back in the same place??? Without clear tools and templates it simply invites cheating.  This was easily predictable. 

Sorry.  I'm not buying what you're selling as far as the current sitch in Porto Quervo.  You may be spot on as far as problems YOU have had regarding the keel delrin replacement.  Not arguing that point.  But I can just about guaranfuckingtee that that is NOT the case at the worlds. Some owners will find any possible thing they can to spend money on to make them more competitive.  Period.  These 7 (and apparently a few more un-named) spent the money, they cheated, full k nowing they were cheating and they got caught.  Full Stop.

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1 minute ago, J T said:

Sorry.  I'm not buying what you're selling as far as the current sitch in Porto Quervo.  You may be spot on as far as problems YOU have had regarding the keel delrin replacement.  Not arguing that point.  But I can just about guaranfuckingtee that that is NOT the case at the worlds. Some owners will find any possible thing they can to spend money on to make them more competitive.  Period.  These 7 (and apparently a few more un-named) spent the money, they cheated, full k nowing they were cheating and they got caught.  Full Stop.

Of course they are cheating.  That wasn't my point at all.  My point was the builders created the grey area that people have been exploiting for years. You have to repair the boats and there is no way for someone NOT at a Worlds event where the builders bust out measurement tools that are not normally available... for anyone to say a competitor who reasonably removed their keel is in compliance after repair.  So people predictably take advantage of that.  It simply isn't enough to say you cant alter something.  You need standards.  

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J boats wants to sell boats, period. At some point market saturation is reached and the demand for new boats goes down to where it is not economical to build them anymore. Waterline had all the old molds, but how many new boats did they build of any model?? So J is betting that new boat demand disappears before measurement issues cause the class to implode. When that happens, class activity disappears until some actual, repeatable & fair standards are imposed. When the value of the original multi-variant boats fall to where it is economical to make them compliant, than class can re-build

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Fully agree with Team_GBR and others that cheating is cheating and there should have always been zero tolerance. It's also interesting to read about the sloppy construction practices. How do those construction practices compare with other sport boats like the Viper 640?

Despite all of these "modifications", it seems to me that a boat full of "pros (insert your definition of pro)" should be able to take a J-70 directly from the factory with current sails and still do well if not have chance to win any regatta. What am I missing? Same for the comment about going through 10 Lasers to find the "best" one. A great Laser sailer should be able to take any new boat with "factory" gear and win.

 

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7 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

Fully agree with Team_GBR and others that cheating is cheating and there should have always been zero tolerance. It's also interesting to read about the sloppy construction practices. How do those construction practices compare with other sport boats like the Viper 640?

Despite all of these "modifications", it seems to me that a boat full of "pros (insert your definition of pro)" should be able to take a J-70 directly from the factory with current sails and still do well if not have chance to win any regatta. What am I missing? Same for the comment about going through 10 Lasers to find the "best" one. A great Laser sailer should be able to take any new boat with "factory" gear and win.

 

In the case of the Laser and j70, it isn't factory gear that is the issue (well... it is, but you can buy a race ready kit that bridges that easily enough,) its the hulls and in the case of the j70s, the keel. In Lasers the hulls feel different boat to boat when you sail them. You can get a good stiff one and it feels like a rock. Or, you can get one that is not as stiff and it feels off from day one. In J70s, you can visually see the differences in depth of keel, fit of wedges, and slightly different extended keel positions.

A great Laser sailor or a great J70 team has/have the boat handling skills and the knowledge of boat setup and fixed and running rigging configurations to do well, but the specific boats absolutely make a difference. Some are faster and more forgiving. Others are not as fast. or as forgiving.   

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I know one very successful one-design sailor who always checked the weekday of lay-up for any boat he bought.  Always looked for a Tuesday/Wednesday boat.  No Monday hangovers, no Thursday/Friday getting tired of the job or planning for the weekend party.

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1 minute ago, frostbit said:

In the case of the Laser and j70, it isn't factory gear that is the issue (well... it is, but you can buy a race ready kit that bridges that easily enough,) its the hulls and in the case of the j70s, the keel. In Lasers the hulls feel different boat to boat when you sail them. You can get a good stiff one and it feels like a rock. Or, you can get one that is not as stiff and it feels off from day one. In J70s, you can visually see the differences in depth of keel, fit of wedges, and slightly different extended keel positions.

A great Laser sailor or a great J70 team has/have the boat handling skills and the knowledge of boat setup and fixed and running rigging configurations to do well, but the specific boats absolutely make a difference. Some are faster and more forgiving. Others are not as fast. or as forgiving.   

Thanks! As someone said, all J-70's are one design but some are more so than others!

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