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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
notherday

J70, cheating and pros

313 posts in this topic

Well since the only way to be out of measurement on standardized keels is by cheating (since NOTHING can be done to the keels except polishing.I read the class rules..), I think your point is moot. This is not a case of slight overage of a sail measurement - this is clearly overt actions to gain unfair advantage by specific and illegal means.

I first sailed J70s a few years ago - I noticed one boat significantly higher and faster than the rest of the fleet - it seemed odd - that boat/owner has been since disqualified.

 

If I remember correctly - Perrseverance won all three races the first day of KWRW - after getting tossed and having to revert to standard wedges, they were mid fleet at best for teh rest of the regatta.

 

It is hard to maintain a class once the cheating is understood to be rampant - its fine when its ok to cheat early on , as everyone thinks the same italions that won in F40s, M24/32s, etc must be that much better - but now it turns out to be much like Armstrong in cycling........ think i will wait to see the used market hit bottom next year.

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from Scuttlebutt:

Porto Cervo, Italy (September 12, 2017) – The start of the 2017 J/70 World Championship will need to wait until tomorrow as racing was officially cancelled today at 13:00 with winds gusting beyond 30 knots. After a notable measurement process which saw seven boats officially rejected for improper modifications, five filed for redress but had their requests denied. The forecast for tomorrow anticipates high winds again that are borderline for competition. Racing for the 162 entrants is to be held September 12 to 16

 

Provisional entry list shows 173, but above says 162 final entry. 7 were tossed leaving 4 unaccounted for.

 

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17 minutes ago, Christian said:

And you are using 3 box rule classes as an example in the discussion of OD boats - how the hell is that relevant?

OK fine:
1. GP14 is one design. So is 505. NOT "box" rule. Have you ever sailed or owned a 505?


I'll add more:

thistle
lighting

snipe

windmill

STAR

.....

the list goes on.....
and these boats are raced in numbers to this day....

Lots of other examples....

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Once again...I must be missing your point.  Personally, I think the class is showing pretty large huevos to be 86ing those who have cheated.  Big names, expensive programs, yada yada yada.  I can't see where you guys are coming from saying the class is going downhill and will be PH in a coupla years.  This action, this week, is GOOD for the class.  While it's mystifying why some would think they are above the rules, it's a handful.  Other than that handful, there are 170ish at the party.  Show me another OD class that active and that strong.

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1 minute ago, J T said:

Once again...I must be missing your point.  Personally, I think the class is showing pretty large huevos to be 86ing those who have cheated.  Big names, expensive programs, yada yada yada.  I can't see where you guys are coming from saying the class is going downhill and will be PH in a coupla years.  This action, this week, is GOOD for the class.  While it's mystifying why some would think they are above the rules, it's a handful.  Other than that handful, there are 170ish at the party.  Show me another OD class that active and that strong.

505

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It was a bit rhetorical...but 505 is a good answer.  While maybe not 160+ at the worlds a very strong fleet, great sailors, good handle on measurement aspects at championships. And of course......Gate starts!!!

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FWIW the 505 has a particularly loose set of measurements by one design standards, it is much closer to a box rule than most. Very unusually the rules were framed to permit moderate variation in shape rather than simply being intended as build tolerances.

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23 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

of the seven teams just thrown out of the J/70 World Championship for measurement violations – in Italy – five are Italian!

GBR910 appears to be a predominantly Italian crewed boat too.

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18 hours ago, 2savage said:

No John, that was the year before.  And that's why the thread 'Espo is a dick' is one of the longest running threads on this forum.  Thanks for confirming it just one more time. 

I guess we must have been in different divisions the year you won.

You are jealous of my thread along with the rest of the hacks on this site that keep bumping it up

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If the manufacturer would just make fare and consistent components to begin with, you wouldn't get so much benefit from fixing them in the first place.

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You are asuming the effort was a simple 'fix' to an unfair keel - without the actual info, the 'fix' could have been a completely different shape, size or weight! Once you knowinlgy go over the line, is there a difference from pushing it all the way? Its hard to believe they are being this harsh to world champions on simple fairing. I would assume the majority of the boats have had their keels regelled and sanded, which in some regard is allowed.

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In the 80's Schock 35's were a very active class here on the West coast. W.D. Schock loaned us the templates to measure and fare the bottoms, keels and rudders of several of the class's most competitive boats. After we did the first one, there was quite an interest from several of the top boats to fare, spray and burnish a race bottom and appendages. These jobs were not cheap. But, the performance difference for just being true to the design was worth it to quite a few owners. I never heard anything about cheating. We were just cleaning up what production did not do perfectly using the manufacturer's templates.

I understand the point is to keep the costs down. But, you would take a lot of the incentive out, if it were just fare to begin with.

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1 hour ago, notherday said:

from Scuttlebutt:

... five filed for redress but had their requests denied. ..

That's pretty dumb move. Rules 62.1 (a) and 76 - 'an improper action or omission by RC, PC, OA or TC'. Interestingly, what that would be? These guys are right in the Rule 69 territory and then they trying to blame RC, TC or OA? Well, well..

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1 hour ago, elektroj said:

 Interestingly, what that would be?

76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.3, provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the reason for doing so. On request the boat shall promptly be given the reason in writing. The boat may request redress if she considers that the rejection or exclusion is improper.

A misinterpretation of the rules by the measurers would certainly be grounds for redress against exclusion. 

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5 hours ago, Olson_30_Guy said:

For me the issue is repairing, not fairing... for instance to replace my wedges (in a first run 2012 boat) I have to basically cut the replacements in half with a band saw lengthwise, then sand them down, then make final adjustments in the boat itself.  And that is working from duplicating wedges that are falling apart....  Remember wedges on later boats are significantly larger, the hole patterns differ, the keel boxes themselves are different.  Now you tell me that the keel I have just "repaired" is in the same place as the one that was in the boat from the factory... In other instances hitting a large pothole while trailering required grinding out and rebuilding a large section of the keel... you tell me if my keel holds the same shape/profile as it was from the factory...  THIS is the grey area in which rampant cheating has occurred.  It is perfectly reasonable for anyone to argue that they need remove keels and wedges and work on them.   Who is to say they went back in the same place??? Without clear tools and templates it simply invites cheating.  This was easily predictable. 

O30, since they have no desire to sell them, have you tried asking J/Boats for the original design file?  3D printers can print Delrin. We do it all the time at work. 

Hell, suggest to them to outsource to a 3D print shop that'll drop ship. They can still profit off it, it'll take zero work on their part, they can still control the sizing, and folks like you can have a class legal solution. Because what they're doing is rediculous. You're technically cheating by modifying the delrins, even though you have no damn choice and aren't trying to game the system. 

Or Fuck 'em. If someone could find a perfect set, I could model them and open source the file so any print shop could pop them out. I'd charge a few bucks extra for the cheater design. :D

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1 hour ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

. But, the performance difference for just being true to the design was worth it to quite a few owners. I never heard anything about cheating.

If the class rules didn't prohibit refairing it wouldn't be cheating. But these ones do.

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After reading this thread and others about the big tolerances and noticeable performance differences in J-70's, how would a prospective J-70 owner who wants to get into top class "one design" racing view the boat as a choice? Not knowing any details of differences, how many of that huge fleet waiting to sail in the worlds have no chance based on "as-received" differences in their boats? 

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3 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

After reading this thread and others about the big tolerances and noticeable performance differences in J-70's, how would a prospective J-70 owner who wants to get into top class "one design" racing view the boat as a choice? Not knowing any details of differences, how many of that huge fleet waiting to sail in the worlds have no chance based on "as-received" differences in their boats? 

As owner you would be responsible for following the class rules.  Buyer beware when purchasing.

Otherwise a first owner could cheat like hell, keep boat a limited amount of time, then sell, and the second owner claims ignorance.  You could create quite a business model...

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On 9/11/2017 at 1:31 PM, By the lee said:

This is why PHRF is a level playing field, everbodys cheating! :lol:

good one

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I am confused. I get the issue with the wedges but the keels themselves? No way. If you reshape the keel, it is cheating. I don't care how badly made they keels are, or how inconsistent the shape is, you cannot use that as an excuse to cheat. If you don't like the keel you have, you have 3 choices. Sell the boat, replace the keel or STFU. There is no 4th choice of reshape. Anybody with sense and competency should be able to tell the difference between refairing a keel and repairing damage.

As for the wedges, there does seem to be an issue, but I think anybody knowledgeable should be able to know if the wedges have been modified to make them the same as the original and no longer available ones, or whether they have been modified to get an advantage.

I personally find it rather unhelpful to include the issues being discussed in the same breath as the cheating. Badly built boats are never even the slightest excuse or explanation for cheating but that is how it is coming across, even though I am sure it isn't meant that way. 

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I am confused. I get the issue with the wedges but the keels themselves? No way. If you reshape the keel, it is cheating. I don't care how badly made they keels are, or how inconsistent the shape is, you cannot use that as an excuse to cheat. If you don't like the keel you have, you have 3 choices. Sell the boat, replace the keel or STFU. There is no 4th choice of reshape. Anybody with sense and competency should be able to tell the difference between refairing a keel and repairing damage.

As for the wedges, there does seem to be an issue, but I think anybody knowledgeable should be able to know if the wedges have been modified to make them the same as the original and no longer available ones, or whether they have been modified to get an advantage.

I personally find it rather unhelpful to include the issues being discussed in the same breath as the cheating. Badly built boats are never even the slightest excuse or explanation for cheating but that is how it is coming across, even though I am sure it isn't meant that way. 

This is relevant because I am trying to describe the operating space in which cheating has become rampant and mostly unenforceable.  Outside of a world championship the measurement tools that were used to say these boats were out of spec are not available.  You have a situation where pulling keels and working of keels and Delrins is perfectly reasonable but no way to verify other than subjective observation from local class measurement officials (basically ME level people) if boats are "as built".  It is a situation that BEGS for cheating.  How do you draw the line between those making repairs in good faith and those who are blatantly cheating?   You make a grave mistake by assuming that I am somehow excusing cheating.  These teams were blatantly cheating as many more have as well.   They should all be tossed and rule 69 proceedings should follow for owners and pros alike.  My point is that this is all completely inevitable and predictable without verifiable standards in a setting where working on keels well beyond "polishing" is necessary for almost all boats at some point.  The enforcement action in Italy is welcome and a great first step.  You cannot understand why this form of cheating has proliferated without understanding this issues going on in the class or with the boats.   

 

 

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30 minutes ago, roca said:

Interesting, Google translation:

 

"The J70 World Championship is undoubtedly the most beautiful event of the world sailing season. After a long discussion in the family I was able to convince my son Achille, who usually regattas on the Melges 20, to ride on the J70 too to have the opportunity to have fun together and maybe even spit a little while in the evening, in front of a good glass of wine , duly red.

Achille has never raced in class J70, bought a new sailboat and sent it to one of the reference yards to fix the imperfections on the keel, as required by the class rule (C.8.1.C) . The boat thus, and again never put on the water before, came to its first degree that, as between the seller and the international class, would have been made during the preventive checks. During the aforementioned inspections a keel was found to be non-conforming to the light of which the officer told us that it was enough for him to pass the tonnage again with a new and conforming keel.

Once we got the tracker approval, we bought the keel of a new boat, regularly certified by the French manufacturer, from the Italian dealer.

The boat at that point was restored to the trails within the time limits set by the Notice of Race over all the controls and getting all the tonnage records where no prescriptions were made. All this happened, and the boat's weight was exceeded, Sunday, September 10 at 12 noon. Timing also has its importance, but on this we will be back soon.

On September 11, after the skipper briefing, shortly after the closure of the trains and the subdivision of the fleets, my son's boat was in the Red group. the organizing committee, at 19:00, issued a statement stating that 7 boats had been inscribed on the basis of a report from the Techinical Committee stating that the affected boats had modified the keel by breaking the rule of class C.8.1. That's what happened.

Incidentally, it is fair and sacrosanct that we can not make changes to the appendices, but it turns out that last year at the San Francisco World Championships some participants were allowed to work on non-conforming keels, allowing them to regatta. I could also add that the checks were fairly scrupulous for some boats and a little less zealous with others, but as Andreotti said, "law applies to enemies and is interpreted for friends ...". I was talking ahead of schedule and it is a bit strange that the Organizing Committee, reading the Yacht Club Costa Smeralda, makes such a serious decision only a few hours before the first race.

Several weeks ago, the Yacht Club Costa Smeralda had already refused to admit his friend Pietro Manunta of Olbia, one of the founders of Mascalzone Latino, because after July 3, deadline, even though it was the Yacht Club's faculty to accept it with a surplus. A bit strange, however, was the persistence of refusal even when we were informed by some competing friends who had given up on the race and eventually left the seat to us.

At this point I submitted a formal request to the organization to replace me with my son, at the helm of my regularly accepted boat. I made this decision animated by the desire to bring my son Achille to a magnificent class to which I will never miss my modest logistical support in transport. The request was rejected by the Yacht Club Costa Smeralda, read organization without any motivation.

It is a beautiful World Championship, but it was badly grounded, excluding 7 competitive teams, 5 of which had regularized their boats (San Francisco docet) and arbitrarily excluded others who would like to participate: what is the purpose of writing in the Notice of Race can they accept subscriptions after July 3rd, paying 250,00 € more? Maybe why would there be a third Mascalzone Latino in the race?

Organized dangerously bad even at sea, ridiculously setting up a single race field for 180 competitors. A choice dictated, of course, by saving, as it is well-known, of a poor Yacht Club with resources.
That said, we pack up the boats and leave, even my race, but sailing is fun, as well as passion, and what has happened is political, only political and still political. I was honored to be a member of the Costa Smeralda Yacht Club for a few decades and the great honor of being awarded the Gold Guide of the Club. But those were other times and with other men. The club was governed by the never too lazy Commodore Gianfranco Alberini, True Sea Man and True Commander. I left the Club when unfortunately it was missing and replaced"

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What I want to know is what kind of prize money purses do the winners get at these J70 events?  It must be some damn good $$ to make it worthwhile to go to this much effort to bend or break the rules on this level. What are we talking about.....?  $25K?  $50K?  What?

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58 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Interesting, Google translation:

 

"The J70 World Championship is undoubtedly the most beautiful event of the world sailing season. After a long discussion in the family I was able to convince my son Achille, who usually regattas on the Melges 20, to ride on the J70 too to have the opportunity to have fun together and maybe evenFOOL EACH OTHER in the evening, in front of a good glass of wine , duly red.

Achille has never raced in class J70, bought a new sailboat and sent it to one of the reference yards to fix the imperfections on the keel, as PROVIDED FOR by the class rule (C.8.1.C) . The boat thus, and again never put on the water before, came to its first MEASURE that, as DECIDED between the seller and the international class, would have been made during the preventive checks. During the aforementioned inspections a keel was found to be non-conforming THEREFORE the officer told us that it was enough for him to APPROVE THE BOAT, TO COME BACK again with a new and conforming keel.

Once we got the MEASURER approval, we bought the keel of a new boat, regularly certified by the French manufacturer, from the Italian dealer.

The boat at that point was TAKEN BACK to the MAESUREMENT within the time limits set by the Notice of Race over all the controls and getting all APPROVAL, no prescriptions were made. All this happened, and the boat's was APPROVED, Sunday, September 10 at 12 noon. Timing also has its importance, but on this we will be back soon.

On September 11, after the skipper briefing, WAY  after the closure of the MEASURES and the subdivision of the fleets, my son's boat was in the Red group. the organizing committee, at 19:00, issued a statement stating that 7 boats had been inscribed on the basis of a report from the Techinical Committee stating that the affected boats had modified the keel by breaking the rule of class C.8.1. That's what happened.

Incidentally, it is fair and sacrosanct that we can not make changes to the appendices, but it turns out that last year at the San Francisco World Championships some participants were allowed to work on non-conforming keels, allowing them to regatta. I could also add that the checks were fairly scrupulous for some boats and a little less zealous with others, but as Andreotti said, "law applies to enemies and is interpreted for friends ...". I was talking ahead of TIMING and it is a bit strange that the Organizing Committee, THAT IS Yacht Club Costa Smeralda, makes such a serious decision only a few hours before the first race.

Several weeks ago, the Yacht Club Costa Smeralda had already refused to admit OUR friend Pietro Manunta of Olbia, one of the founders of Mascalzone Latino, because after THE July 3 deadline, even though it was the Yacht Club's faculty to accept it with an EXTRE CHARGE. A bit strange, however, was the persistence of refusal even when we were informed by some competing friends who had given up on the race and eventually left the PLACE to THEM.

At this point I submitted a formal request to the organization to replace me with my son, at the helm of my regularly accepted boat. I made this decision animated by the desire to bring my son Achille to a magnificent class to which I will never miss my modest logistical support in transport. The request was rejected by the Yacht Club Costa Smeralda, THAT IS organizaER, without any motivation.

It is a beautiful World Championship, but it was badly grounded, excluding 7 competitive teams, 5 of which had regularized their boats (San Francisco docet) and arbitrarily excluded others who would like to participate: what is the purpose of writing in the Notice of Race can they accept subscriptions after July 3rd, paying 250,00 € more? Maybe why would there be a third Mascalzone Latino in the race?

Organized dangerously bad even at sea, ridiculously setting up a single race field for 180 competitors. A choice dictated, of course, by saving, as it is well-known, of a poor Yacht Club with resources.
That said, we pack up the boats and leave, even my BOAT WHICH COULD RACE, but sailing is fun, as well as passion, and what has happened is political, only political and AGAIN political. I was honored to be a member of the Costa Smeralda Yacht Club for a few decades and the great honor of being awarded the Gold Guide of the Club. But those were other times and with other men. The club was governed by the never too MOURNED? Commodore Gianfranco Alberini, True Sea Man and True Commander. I left the Club when unfortunately HE was missing and replaced"

THEN COMES A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ACTUAL COMODORO MR. BONADEO, (QUITE FUNNY, ON HIS SAILING SKILLS AND GUARDROBE) AND AT LAST E PROMESES TO GO TO COURT WITH LAYERS AND SO ON...

tried to fix the most evident google errors

hope I did not do worse ;) 

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Re Mascalzone letter, what I don't understand from his testimony is very simple:

 

- Why did he feel the need to alter the keel as provided by the builder? (Because that's what everyone does?)

- If there was something wrong with the keel he should have rejected it?

 

But no, as is the norm these days is the first thing they (all) do, is send the boat to the yard and get the keel refaired, lowered etc etc. The argument that everyone else is doing it, the only way we can be competitive is to do this, simply doesn't hold water......

So kudos to the Jury, Italian Class Association for standing up to this.......

 

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10 minutes ago, freddy said:

Re Mascalzone letter, what I don't understand from his testimony is very simple:

- Why did he feel the need to alter the keel as provided by the builder? (Because that's what everyone does?)

- If there was something wrong with the keel he should have rejected it?

well to optimize the boat inside the rules has to be a credit, it is main part of this sport, this is what sailing OD and also olyimpics is about;

They are a top team in the world, what do you expect...? 

He says it is in the class  rules  (C.8.1.C)

 

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Quote

C.8.1 MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
The following is permitted without the approval of the LM.

(c) Gelcoat  scratches  and  minimal  damaged  areas and  minor  molding  imperfections such as print-through may be sanded and repaired, provided the as-molded shape in not altered. (sic)

So if you choose a keel where (under suitable lighting) the whole thing shows print through...? (G, D &R)

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What I want to know is what kind of prize money purses do the winners get at these J70 events?  It must be some damn good $$ to make it worthwhile to go to this much effort to bend or break the rules on this level. What are we talking about.....?  $25K?  $50K?  What?

Exactly the same amount of cash that those amateur rugby players and cyclists who get drug bans are winning. Some people need to win, no matter what.

 

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It would be interesting to see the measurer's report on what they found to cause them to exclude the boats.

Especially interesting to know why, if keel modifications are as widespread in the fleet as some posters have suggested, only 7 boats have been excluded.

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It's an interesting turn of events and one must applaud both the measurement and organizing committees for having the intestinal fortitude to send so many competitors packing. I certainly hope they did not refund entry fees.

That said, what's going on is neither a reasonable approach to fixing the problem nor a reasonable approach to fixing the symptom, each of which must be addressed.

Addressing The Symptom

Without clear codification by ISAF within the RRS that gross measurement violations are unacceptable, officials have no incentive to enforce rules and and cheating runs rampant. And by unacceptable, these violations must be met with lifetime bans for every sailor named on the entry and, too, that the hull is permanently banned from the class. 

It's important to understand that measurement committees are in an untenable situation as those who try to be serious are often drummed out of a job by those willing to be less scrupulous. Organizers exert constant pressure to make measurement fast and easy,  and the undercurrent to avoid embarrassment of organizers, owners, crew and suppliers is strong. There is no incentive at the measurement level to make a stink and few measurers who do make a stink have lengthy careers.

The only people with anything to lose are those who are lucky enough to have found themselves as professional sailors and none of them want to give up their seat at that table to something so stupid and easily avoidable. And while it's often the case that a given sailor on a cheating program may not have known about the cheating, if they know they'll be held responsible you can be sure that they'll do their utmost to ensure it doesn't happen on their watch.

Is it entirely fair? No, but it's a lot more fair than continuing to allow cheating of this kind on a scale of this magnitude. And by this magnitude, the recent turn of events would seem to have affected about 5% or 1 in 20 boats. That puts one-design racing on par with doping scandals in biking!

The Problem

It's easy to claim that the builders or the owners are the problem here, but neither of those claims stand much scrutiny. At issue is that the boats aren't built to a rigid one-design standard and, as a result, coming off the production line today's boat may not be as competitive as yesterday's boat.

The manufacturer has little incentive to fix this problem because they don't know when building the first 25 hulls whether the class will become successful. The cost savings in good tooling won't pay off unless a few 100 boats are built.

That reality creates an environment in which owners are incentivised to cheat because the only penalties are erratically enforced and have minor consequences. We can address the incentive with a lifetime ban, but that doesn't address the problem in the slightest.

So if not builders or owners, who? The answer is the Class association.

By adopting a position that you must race the piece of shit you bought, the Class creates an environment that is rife for cheating. And Class associations have been willfully creating this kind of culture and then standing around casually denying responsibility for decades.

One cannot try to have reasonable one-design racing without boats that reasonably conform to a given shape. When a Class grows at the rate and to the size of the J70 fleet, it's the responsibility of the Class to adopt a reasonable approach to allowing owners to normalize the piece of shit they brought in an effort to create the level playing field upon which one-design racing is said to exist.

Whether this results in an A and B fleet, a modest weight penalty for a "normalized" boat or some other approach is a Class problem to solve. But it's a problem that can only be solved by the Class.

Should the class put pressure on the manufacturer to clean up their act? Of course. And to be clear, manufacturers cranking out this kind of lousy workmanship should be shamed loudly, repeatedly and publicly.  Reasonable production standards for tooling and build are not that difficult to put in place and tend to drive costs down, not up, as volumes grow.

 

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This would be a good time to start shopping for a J/70 for handicap racing, should be some cheap hulls on the market soon

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Moonduster postulates that the root cause here is the manufacturer. In the case of a J/70, how many builders are out there? Don't these things come off the factory floor conforming to the class rules? If not, why not?

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It seems the problem is that variation in production means some boats conforming to the class rules (i.e. no modifications) are faster than others conforming to the class rules.

That would be a problem originating with the manufacturer. To fix that by allowing post production optimization of correction seems entirely the wrong approach.

Instead of building a cheap boat that requires expensive post production work why not build a boat that is consistent.

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The problem with that argument is that the number of people who want to play that game is small and everyone else will eventually walk away.

The problem? it's catch 22.

You cant have a big (Championship) fleet unless the boats are economical to campaign and the regatta sociable. That means wide build tolerances, popular holiday destinations/where there is a fleet and days racing rather than sitting on the beach waiting the everyone to pass measurement.

Wide tolerances become material when it comes to winning in a big fleet and big fleets attract people who like winning (even better beating lots of other people) more than they care about how or the people they beet.

 

 

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I think the J/70 class is being put into a similar position that the J/24 class was put into decades ago.  A fun boat that is accessible and liked by many, built with loose tolerances and sometimes running changes.  A comprehensive measurement approach including defined measurements (with tolerances) and class controlled templates may be where this class ends up.  And that is a good thing if no more reason to put the boats on a level playing field not only for the purpose of technical measurement, but also as a perception by outsiders that the boats are truly one design.

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A perception that the boats are truly one design just adds value to winning the World Championships. That's just throwing fuel on the fire.

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On 9/12/2017 at 5:01 AM, chuso007 said:

It's great that SA will be there, I have a lot of friends from Vigo heading there. I'll be following the race with interest...

 

Tell me about them and I'll get some interviews

 

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Alan, please also give some love and attention to team Eker from Turkey. The owner runs a big Yoghurt business in Istanbul and races also with a Melges32 in the European series. He has a young and very enthusiastic team and would deserve some attention. If you find them, just send best regards from TamTam Racing. We trained with them in Istanbul with our Farr25 and were impressed by how fast they came to speed. Cheers and many thanks!

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2 hours ago, Moonduster said:

It's an interesting turn of events and one must applaud both the measurement and organizing committees for having the intestinal fortitude to send so many competitors packing. I certainly hope they did not refund entry fees.

That said, what's going on is neither a reasonable approach to fixing the problem nor a reasonable approach to fixing the symptom, each of which must be addressed.

Addressing The Symptom

Without clear codification by ISAF within the RRS that gross measurement violations are unacceptable, officials have no incentive to enforce rules and and cheating runs rampant. And by unacceptable, these violations must be met with lifetime bans for every sailor named on the entry and, too, that the hull is permanently banned from the class. 

It's important to understand that measurement committees are in an untenable situation as those who try to be serious are often drummed out of a job by those willing to be less scrupulous. Organizers exert constant pressure to make measurement fast and easy,  and the undercurrent to avoid embarrassment of organizers, owners, crew and suppliers is strong. There is no incentive at the measurement level to make a stink and few measurers who do make a stink have lengthy careers.

The only people with anything to lose are those who are lucky enough to have found themselves as professional sailors and none of them want to give up their seat at that table to something so stupid and easily avoidable. And while it's often the case that a given sailor on a cheating program may not have known about the cheating, if they know they'll be held responsible you can be sure that they'll do their utmost to ensure it doesn't happen on their watch.

Is it entirely fair? No, but it's a lot more fair than continuing to allow cheating of this kind on a scale of this magnitude. And by this magnitude, the recent turn of events would seem to have affected about 5% or 1 in 20 boats. That puts one-design racing on par with doping scandals in biking!

The Problem

It's easy to claim that the builders or the owners are the problem here, but neither of those claims stand much scrutiny. At issue is that the boats aren't built to a rigid one-design standard and, as a result, coming off the production line today's boat may not be as competitive as yesterday's boat.

The manufacturer has little incentive to fix this problem because they don't know when building the first 25 hulls whether the class will become successful. The cost savings in good tooling won't pay off unless a few 100 boats are built.

That reality creates an environment in which owners are incentivised to cheat because the only penalties are erratically enforced and have minor consequences. We can address the incentive with a lifetime ban, but that doesn't address the problem in the slightest.

So if not builders or owners, who? The answer is the Class association.

By adopting a position that you must race the piece of shit you bought, the Class creates an environment that is rife for cheating. And Class associations have been willfully creating this kind of culture and then standing around casually denying responsibility for decades.

One cannot try to have reasonable one-design racing without boats that reasonably conform to a given shape. When a Class grows at the rate and to the size of the J70 fleet, it's the responsibility of the Class to adopt a reasonable approach to allowing owners to normalize the piece of shit they brought in an effort to create the level playing field upon which one-design racing is said to exist.

Whether this results in an A and B fleet, a modest weight penalty for a "normalized" boat or some other approach is a Class problem to solve. But it's a problem that can only be solved by the Class.

Should the class put pressure on the manufacturer to clean up their act? Of course. And to be clear, manufacturers cranking out this kind of lousy workmanship should be shamed loudly, repeatedly and publicly.  Reasonable production standards for tooling and build are not that difficult to put in place and tend to drive costs down, not up, as volumes grow.

 

In this case, the class association is hamstrung by the Johnstone mafia. The class association is not empowered to make the changes to the class rules that would make this a better situation.  The Johnstones cling stubbornly to the conceit that all boats are identical when delivered. 

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Talked to about a dozen people today off the record about the measurement stuff, including two of the boats which were refused entry under 76 and several coaches and class officials.

There is a lot of shit flying around that is obscuring the matter thanks to Vincenzo's letter (which, properly translated, is one of the funniest bits of PR I've ever seen in sailing) and the longtime animosity between Onorato and the YCCS.  Regardless of that narrative (where they claim the rejection comes on a personal basis from the Club), the truth is much more simple.

The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing.

Most or all of the boats were worked on by the same guy in Riva Del Garda.  He's well known (though I only know him by his nickname, which I remember as Fafo) for years for high quality work on the Melges as well as Finns and other olympic boats.

In my mind, there's no way this guy does this level of work without talking to at least someone in charge on the teams. 

Most of the effected boats' responses was 'but we've been measured before and we passed', which is not a response.  Most of the owners 'didn't know anything about it', which is not relevant at all.

Instead of the Class telling the bad boats to fix the problem - which we've all unfortunately become used to in one-design classes - they told them to go home.  And I like it.

 

 

 

 

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Even badly translated the bit that didn't get quoted here is a classic!

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12 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Talked to about a dozen people today off the record about the measurement stuff, including two of the boats which were refused entry under 76 and several coaches and class officials.

There is a lot of shit flying around that is obscuring the matter thanks to Vincenzo's letter (which, properly translated, is one of the funniest bits of PR I've ever seen in sailing) and the longtime animosity between Onorato and the YCCS.  Regardless of that narrative (where they claim the rejection comes on a personal basis from the Club), the truth is much more simple.

The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing.

Most or all of the boats were worked on by the same guy in Riva Del Garda.  He's well known (though I only know him by his nickname, which I remember as Fafo) for years for high quality work on the Melges as well as Finns and other olympic boats.

In my mind, there's no way this guy does this level of work without talking to at least someone in charge on the teams. 

Most of the effected boats' responses was 'but we've been measured before and we passed', which is not a response.  Most of the owners 'didn't know anything about it', which is not relevant at all.

Instead of the Class telling the bad boats to fix the problem - which we've all unfortunately become used to in one-design classes - they told them to go home.  And I like it.

 

 

 

 

If true, and sounds like it could well be, then this is even worse than first thought. Changing the shape with a bit of fairing is one thing - buying an illegal keel from a banned 3rd party is very underhand and very deliberate.....

Should be some sort of ban and sanction for owner and all crew from the effected boats - they will all deny any part of it, but that's in their nature. So ban them all for 6 mths from all yachting....And encourage whistleblowers with reduced bans - that way the truth can be uncovered.....

And the boatbilder who did this work should also be hauled over the coals.....he knew full well it is illegal, and he makes his money from our sport.....

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Imaginary conversation...

> I want the keel done the same way as xxx

>> OK, there you are that will be n euros

> the Jury said its illegal at the worlds

>> Never said it wasn't. You said same as xxx

> Did xxx ask for an illegal keel?

>> xxx only races under measurement handicaps, its not illegal in that situation

> you never said it was illegal for one design events

>> you never asked or specified. Didn't you know?

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The builder who did the work should be added to the measurement team for the next event

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The answer by Mr. Recchi is (obviously and easly) very convincing, adressing all points.

 VO lost another chance to STFU, he will now be remembered as the main cheater in this controversy...

sometimes "silence is golden"

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Walked through the yard when measurement was in progress. First event where templates were available (or that's what it sounded like) for measurers.

Interesting point: some boats (measurers knew which boats had been to the same yard) were checked even before going into proper measurement. Interestingly, I also witnessed one or two boats who had been to the same yard for prep where templates showed no issue (to the point the measurers took photos for illustration purposes). And some boats looked horrendous because owners were afraid to go beyond the allowed repair clause...

Some clear challenges for this class with two factories, two rig suppliers and over 1000 hull numbers issued. If templates were to be made available, inclining, rig stiffness and similar other measurements would need to be included as well and cost of competition would skyrocket. Now the challenge is to have a few more measurers (with templates) available at other major events without templates making their way to the yards.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Tell me about them and I'll get some interviews

 

I just saw one of your videos walking by some of them, ask for Ramón Ojea, he's organising the next J/70 Europeans in Vigo in  2018, he's the skipper of Pazo de Cea, Gonzalo Araujo and him are the real class promoters in Spain.

Both Mar Natura boats have interesting people on board (Luis Bugallo from the Spanish Youth America´s Cup Team Impulse and Nico Rodriguez, future (hopefully) 470 Olimpian, You have Laureano Wizner (America's Cup veteran) on board PettitePalace Hoteles, Gonzalo Araujo  on Sailway...

 

EDIT: Ramón is not exactly the organiser of the European Championship, but he's one of them... It will be hosted by the Real Club Náutico de Vigo.

Edited by chuso007

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

It seems the problem is that variation in production means some boats conforming to the class rules (i.e. no modifications) are faster than others conforming to the class rules.

That would be a problem originating with the manufacturer. To fix that by allowing post production optimization of correction seems entirely the wrong approach.

Instead of building a cheap boat that requires expensive post production work why not build a boat that is consistent.

They may be built cheap, but they're certainly not sold cheap..

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1 hour ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

Walked through the yard when measurement was in progress. First event where templates were available (or that's what it sounded like) for measurers.

Interesting point: some boats (measurers knew which boats had been to the same yard) were checked even before going into proper measurement. Interestingly, I also witnessed one or two boats who had been to the same yard for prep where templates showed no issue (to the point the measurers took photos for illustration purposes). And some boats looked horrendous because owners were afraid to go beyond the allowed repair clause...

Some clear challenges for this class with two factories, two rig suppliers and over 1000 hull numbers issued. If templates were to be made available, inclining, rig stiffness and similar other measurements would need to be included as well and cost of competition would skyrocket. Now the challenge is to have a few more measurers (with templates) available at other major events without templates making their way to the yards.

Again, I have no idea what templates can prove. If the keel doesn't fit the template, isn't "it came like that from the factory" a pretty solid defense?

It seems to me that you would be looking for evidence of work being done, like fairing compound on a part that came right out of a mold. Again, though, wouldn't "there was print-through evident when received from the factory" be a pretty good defense there?

I, frankly, don't see how the class rules as they currently exist are sustainable.

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" I, frankly, don't see how the class rules as they currently exist are sustainable. "

Me neither.

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4 hours ago, RATM said:

Moonduster postulates that the root cause here is the manufacturer. In the case of a J/70, how many builders are out there? Don't these things come off the factory floor conforming to the class rules? If not, why not?

Since  (deliberately) there have been no real measurement points/templates, any boat as is, no changes, straight from builder is legal. So some boats will be better than others, with no legal way to modify them. J boats have a long history of this, all the way back to the 24's, where keels could be an inch different fore-aft, and also different in weight and foil shape.. 105's varied wildly in weight - freeboard measurements were imposed by class. OOOPs - new molds had 1/4 - 1/2" less freeboard than old molds. Finally all boats must be actually weighed by load cells

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1 minute ago, longy said:

So some boats will be better than others, with no legal way to modify them. 

So one legal solution for a very deep pockets owner in the class would be to buy 10 boats, measure each one, and race the pick of the litter?

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On 9/12/2017 at 0:15 PM, sailforbeer said:

I don’t know why there is such a fuss about this.  The J/70 class is about to die; in a matter of a few years, it will be populated by club hacks and people will be bitching about it’s PHRF rating.  Maybe you didn’t see this, but I received this press release just today.  Really exciting stuff and I’m stoked to move on from the pokey J/70.


__________


September 12, 2017; Newport, RI:  The answer to racing sailor’s dreams is about to start production!  Presenting the brand new, totally unique, J/BravoSierra one-design speedster! 


After introducing the J/105 in 1991, and turning the sailing world upside down by claiming to be the first manufacturer to offer an asymmetrical spinnaker on a retracting J/sprit, and by referring to the boat in sophisticated Euro metric numbers instead of boring imperial feet, the J/marketing team now presents its latest naming scheme, using letters instead of numbers!  This revolutionary J/branding totally disguises the fact that we just enlarged our last boat on the photocopier at 107%.  And because we are going to use the word “speedster” in every press release and in every paragraph, it’s definitely going to be faster.


The new J/BS speedster redefines sailboat racing and shared adventure with friends and paid crew.  It fulfills the growing need to simplify payroll and reconnect with those you really can afford to sail with.  Strict class crew limits will ensure that no more than four crew are needed, unless there are five, and no more than three can be paid, with the other two or one able to be paid only if certain criteria, carefully enforced, are met.  And in an exciting break from tradition, owners need only sit ashore and write checks: no owner-driver rules to prevent this speedster from reaching it’s mediocre performance potential!


Imagine a fleet of mundane speedsters sprinting along, with owners enjoying a “dream circuit” of events that tie into regional “classic” races that everyone aspires to buy trophies for.  The pros will be salivating in their black Zhik jackets at the prospect of fleecing a new breed of owners.


Indeed, each new J/BS comes complete with your choice of crew gear in trendy all black, with lime green accents, or with neon yellow accents.  Both colorways will feature absurdly large J/logos, embroidered and screened in many places.  In another industry first, instead of being fast and light, the boat will be heavy but will look fast: instead of design development or modern materials, each J/BS will leave the factory with a stock keel and rudder painted orange!  This speedster will turn heads on the trailer!


Now is the time for the best marketed and most expensive per volume sailboat ever made!  The J/BS speedster – the latest one-design class meant to eviscerate the current one-design class (whatever that was).  Pure J/BS magic!
 

J-logo.jpg

Too funny. Today's press release from Melges is almost identical;-)

https://www.melges.com/?p=news&id=3176

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

So one legal solution for a very deep pockets owner in the class would be to buy 10 boats, measure each one, and race the pick of the litter?

That's what laser olympians do...

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Let be clear - this is NOT slight fairing do to poor workmanship - this is PURE CHEATING in terms of completely differently shaped foils:

"The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing."

The other 165 boats are clearly all within the rules -these guys are no where near the letter nor the INTENT of the rules. Might as well have a little electric engine and a hidden prop to give them the same advantage. Would that be okay with you all? the prop was just added as part of the 'fairing! and no one proteseted our prop before when we won so it must be okay.  I wonder if they have all had keel shrouds like the AC boats did!

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On 9/12/2017 at 2:03 PM, dacapo said:

it's easier to ask for forgivness than for permission............

Easier to get too...

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13 minutes ago, notherday said:

Let be clear - this is NOT slight fairing do to poor workmanship - this is PURE CHEATING in terms of completely differently shaped foils:

"The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing."

The other 165 boats are clearly all within the rules -these guys are no where near the letter nor the INTENT of the rules. Might as well have a little electric engine and a hidden prop to give them the same advantage. Would that be okay with you all? the prop was just added as part of the 'fairing! and no one proteseted our prop before when we won so it must be okay.  I wonder if they have all had keel shrouds like the AC boats did!

Two parallel problems are going on.
1. Cheating.
2. A "one design" class which is not and cannot be one design (because there is nothing an owner can do to correct an out of spec boat--there are no public specs!).

Note that there is a relationship between these two problems. And it is obvious and it has been pointed out very clearly by multiple people above. Basically anyone I put a ^ below.

Blatant cheating --> that seems to be getting taken care of.
Problems going forward with out of spec is not. Unless you find a way to get the J70 class to have teeth and ownership of the technical dimensions.
Look at any real one dsign (505, GP14, Star,  whatever) and you will see drawings, offsets, measurement stations, tolerances and tight language controlling shape between stations.
This is not rocket science but it needs to be done correctly,

 

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Come off it. The GP14 has super wide tolerances in order to allow for home build using 4x8 sheets of ply by a dad and son using 1970s techniques! Same with most of the classes in the UK from that era ... most of which don't actually refer to them selves as one design. The more serious guys head down to Devon and ask Morrison to create something at one end or the other of the tolerances. Just read the write up from the last Merlin Rocket nationals for an idea of the carry on that goes on with very small changes each year or so presented as brand new boats. The 505 is another example. Even the Wayfairer guys go at it FFS.

Once you hit GPR construction the ones that have their own molds or a single builder use exactly the kind of rule that the J/70s are using.

Exposed to a high level of competition the cost goes through the roof any way you shake it. Take the money spent on the JK Stars by the UK/IRL guys for the Olympics. Or Rita or their 470s. Or the effort gone into on centreboard twist for the 470 by the Australians.

Controlling costs in a class is 100% about controlling the aspirations of the guys at the front of the fleet, who set the tone for everyone else.

 

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GP14 and 5o5 are development classes.  Boats like the Optimist and Penguin can still be home built and raced in class.  

As has been said, just come up with drawings with measurements, tolerances and this goes away.  If there are differences between build series then call it out.  It's not rocket science.

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Any class with restricted builders quickly determines who makes the best class legal boats. J-24's began with learning that east coast (TPI) hulls were better than west coat hulls. Later the Australian hulls by Bashford became the top hulls, as he built his hulls to the 'best' measurements. So much better that anyone selling a Bash boat will proudly proclaim the builder.

  Early J-105's were hand laid hulls, later hulls are infusion molded. The early hulls were about 700 - 800 lbs lighter in hull weight, so were very sought after, until the class began actually weighing the boats. Technically, the early boats are still better, less weight in the ends as lead was mostly added in the middle of the boat.

   Laser buyers would inspect & weigh a lot of hulls before buying, & bend test upper sections for stiffness also.

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It doesn't go away though.

It'll accelerate as people have boats almost rebuilt from the ground up to push the tolerances into what ever corner they feel will maximise performance and everyone will feel they have to spend to compete or don't have access to the knowledge required to get on the same page.

Go to measurement stations etc. and people will strip the boats back to glass and reshape them.

 

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

That's what laser olympians do...

lasers cost alot less

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7 hours ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

Interesting point: some boats (measurers knew which boats had been to the same yard) were checked even before going into proper measurement. Interestingly, I also witnessed one or two boats who had been to the same yard for prep where templates showed no issue (to the point the measurers took photos for illustration purposes). And some boats looked horrendous because owners were afraid to go beyond the allowed repair clause...

 

Well, there might be some amusement in the fact that fitting the templates to well is probably a sign of cheating...

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36 minutes ago, rgeek said:

It doesn't go away though.

It'll accelerate as people have boats almost rebuilt from the ground up to push the tolerances into what ever corner they feel will maximise performance and everyone will feel they have to spend to compete or don't have access to the knowledge required to get on the same page.

Go to measurement stations etc. and people will strip the boats back to glass and reshape them.

 

IMHO a much more manageable set of problems to have than the current situation.

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

GP14 and 5o5 are development classes.  Boats like the Optimist and Penguin can still be home built and raced in class.  

As has been said, just come up with drawings with measurements, tolerances and this goes away.  If there are differences between build series then call it out.  It's not rocket science.

Huh?

Sailman! I raced the GP14. It is a *one design* designed by Jack Holt.
The 505 is not a "development class" either. It is a one design with more liberal allowances on rigging and some other details.
In the 505 the following are strictly controlled.
Hull shape. All up weight. Sail area and shape. mast dimensions. Centerboard depth below hull. . Mast position. Centerboardd trunk maximum dimensions. Right down to the half-round beads along the keel. Yes you can shape the blades. You can rotate the mast, change the rigging, etc. But it is not a development class. Not a 14 or a canoe where you have a set of mazimums and minimums and you are free to draw any shape in that broad box.

As for the Optimist, no, actually you cannot home build them any longer. Look that one up. The fiberglass builders saw to it that that would never be practical ever again.

 

As for "wide tolerances" so what? The principle at play is what is important. The rules are clear. The solutions are clear. You sail a GP14 you know what you can do. You buy a J70 you have no idea what you can do. "Don't touch anything" is not an answer.


Yes, drawings, tolerances which is what I said. But apparently there is no power t odo so because of the contracts?

You can craft an effective set of rules--but it takes actually paying attention to the pitfalls learned in other classes.

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Check the Tornado Class Rules. If you want this sort of sh$t to stop, that is the level of measurement scrutiny that must take place. It is also why only one builder in that class really succeeded at the Olympic level, because they flat out built the best boat using the best materials and best construction method available at the time. The premium charged from the factory was worth it to those competing at the level where swapping keels would be a common place event.

The J/70 class should have, some 2 years ago, said okay, we understand the boats aren't all the same, we are cutting all new tooling held to +/- 0.005" tolerance (i.e AC50 level tolerances) and all new boats will come from this tooling, they will cost a bit more but they won't require work from the factory to get them 'fair or make the keel 'better'. This wasn't done so now templates must be supplied, at least a couple sets per continent, to fix the boats that were 'illegally modified' to a rule that doesn't exist etc. How can you bring a keel back to class legal fair after legitimate damage if there are no templates to go from? One is at best left working from templates pulled from another J/70 but how do you know if that boat is legal if its keel, hull etc. has never been measured?

Also, this whole situation proves the fallacy of pure one design classes and why, long term and in classes that are not Olympic, box rule classes make a lot more sense. It is far easier to check boats for compliance with weight, maximum draft, rig dimensions, sail area and a couple of hull checks than busting out full measurement templates for the whole boat.

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47 minutes ago, rgeek said:

It doesn't go away though.

Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues.

Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale. 

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42 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

lasers cost alot less

Yes that is the point. If you are buying a $55000 boat it is unreasonable to expect people to buy 10 of them to be competitive! Some way to make all new boats equally competitive is the goal.

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14 minutes ago, JimC said:

Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues.

Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale. 

2 boats passed measurement and 1 initially didn't but was put into order with the keel of a 4th.

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12 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Yes that is the point. If you are buying a $55000 boat it is unreasonable to expect people to buy 10 of them to be competitive! Some way to make all new boats equally competitive is the goal.

Oh god no. That's the least of it.

Even when a fleet is 10+ years old with second hand values under 10k some point someone will enter 2 boats an event and pay for a crew for the second boat who do nothing except sail out to the course, do a 2 boat tune up and then DNS.

Or when a design is 50 years old there will still be a premium for old boats in specific sail number ranges.

Or people will buy 2nd and 3rd boats so that they can buy more sails than regulation.

Or how about dropping over 1 million US on a single campaign including a near year long on site sail development program.

(these are not all j/70 examples, just boats I the same size range)

 

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2 hours ago, longy said:

Early J-105's were hand laid hulls, later hulls are infusion molded. The early hulls were about 700 - 800 lbs lighter in hull weight, so were very sought after, until the class began actually weighing the boats. Technically, the early boats are still better, less weight in the ends as lead was mostly added in the middle of the boat.

If you are in a competitive J/105 fleet, everyone knows who has a pre-scrimp boat... and not just from hull#

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FFS! We get the fact that there is an issue of consistency in the boats, but the way that is being discussed and the way people are referring to other classes is a real distraction from the facts. These guys were cheating. They deliberately reprofiled their keels to a shape that was never intended, even if all the boats were built exactly the same. We could have some sympathy if what they had done was to shape the keels to be the same as everybody else but that did not happen. They spent money to optimise the shape of the keel.

Forget everything else. These guys cheated by breaking a class rule. They deliberately reprofiled the keels to make the boats faster. Note the word "reprofiled". This is not fairing up the keels. It is changing the shape. If you think that having more consistency in the building of the boats would change that behaviour, you are being very naive. 

While the class has done the right thing, we now have to hope that higher authority takes action, but seeing who it is, I doubt it. Deliberate cheating needs further action because just missing a regatta is not sufficient a penalty.

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:


Look at any real one dsign (505, GP14, Star,  whatever) and you will see drawings, offsets, measurement stations, tolerances and tight language controlling shape between stations.
 

 

Stars are not one design.

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Just now, DtM said:

Stars are not one design.

Really?
Oh boy here we go again....

What are they then?

Have you raced a star?

Have you read the class rules? (I have).

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Explain then how some boats have high floors and others don't and therefore venturis or not.  How the position of runners is different boat to boat. How there are different mast controls boat to boat.

They are built to a rule that does not make them one design. 

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8 minutes ago, DtM said:

Explain then how some boats have high floors and others don't and therefore venturis or not.  How the position of runners is different boat to boat. How there are different mast controls boat to boat.

They are built to a rule that does not make them one design. 

Oh my god do not conflate "one design" with "SMOD."  Not the same thing.
Every star has the same hull shape to a tolerance.
Every star has a minimum weight of hull per square cm over all of its length. I in fact it matches a cedar planked star's weight distribution.
Every star has the same max and min weights.
Every star has a keel and fins that must meet a template.
Every star has the same sail area and sail dimensions.
Every star has a defined mast step area with tolerances....
The high floor doesn't effect the speed. Neither do the particular locations and arrangements of the backstays--by the rule.

Every one design class has a certain amount of freedom to choose different outfitting---even some SMODs do to varying degrees.

To Not be a one design, the basic arrangemnt of the boat is not fixed.

The star class is about 100 years old. The class has adopted some new ideas. That does not make it a development class or a "not one design."
 

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All of your points are correct.  And yes I have sailed them and owned two.

To me that does not equate to one design but rather design within tolerances.

Matter of language use and definition.  You have yours, I have mine.  Happy to move on..

Potato. Potato.

 

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6 minutes ago, DtM said:

All of your points are correct.  And yes I have sailed them and owned two.

To me that does not equate to one design but rather design within tolerances.

Matter of language use and definition.  You have yours, I have mine.  Happy to move on..

Potato. Potato.

 

Well just so you know, the prevailing definition is mine. Yours is conflated with "rule" based boats or "development" classes. There is *one* design for the star. You meet it or you don't sail. A boat with a rule, you have tradeoffs---6 meter rule for instance --- or different paths you can take within some set of min/max: moth, or intl 14 or canoe for instance. Scow moths, are very different from the more melonseed ones but they both met the rule.  Stars are one design.  They aren't V-15s which are SMOD.  They have the same sort of variability as a comet, a snipe, a penguin, or a lightning. Are these others not one design either? That's really the point.

But back on topic I think it is interesting that multiple people have made a point to steer the discussion back to CHEATING being the only topic to be discussed here. As if we don't see that indeed some of the see J70 guys cheated outright. Well yes. I guess that is good to reiterate. But we also see a stjupid problem developoing in the J70 with untenable rules.

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Lasers are different from a J70.  I got a laser truck to myself (21boats) and cherry picked the best hull, uppers, lowers, blades, etc.   If you have the chance. Its better than getting a shit boat, out of a box.       And btw 4 out of the 21 were good. 1 better than others. :)

When you have no rules other than don't touch things.  It invites trouble.  I've seen it in the past. I'm about to see it in the future with the Viper class.  Current rules say you cant touch anything. The new boats we just got don't measure in.  Once we Hit something and have to repair the keel.  Then we HAVE to tear it down and make it fit the class template.  What's faster? I don't know. But leaving things open is Inviting issues...  To many Grey Areas.

I blame this on the Class officers that should have dealt with this YEARS AGO!!!  You can poke at the builders a bit. But, no.  They build them.  The owners decide how the rules should be.  The guys that got kicked for cheating.  Yeah they most likely knew better. but still, if you cant touch it, why are guys sanding the keels During the measurement?????  I mean really???  Half the class probably is scared to wetsand anything. The other half is trying to make it work right, and or fixing builder problems.  To many Grey Areas... Obviously there are WAY to many Grey areas....

There's a whole lot of, Not making sense, going on in the J70.     I'm glad I have a M24 where Nothing makes fucking sense...

 

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Both Stars & 505 have enuff +/- in their hull measurements that different hull shapes can still be legal. Ask any top flite Star sailor about the differences between Folli, Mader & Koumoujian hull shapes & you'll get a long discourse. Phillipe Kahn tried to develop a new 505 to support more crew weight to allow him to compete evenly in the class.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

While the class has done the right thing, we now have to hope that higher authority takes action, but seeing who it is, I doubt it. Deliberate cheating needs further action because just missing a regatta is not sufficient a penalty.

There's some talk about Rule 69 in this German article:

http://segelreporter.com/regatta/j70-worlds-erwischt-ex-weltmeister-alberini-und-sechs-crews-nach-betrug-nicht-zugelassen/

Google translation is poor, but you'll get the idea. It's the same source that posted those videos on Youtube, btw.

Quote

In all, a dozen keels should have been criticized. Two teams are supposed to have machined the keels for post-surveying to make them suitable for the stencils. They now face a Rule 69 protest because of unfairness. It is not permissible to deal with the keel at all. But there will be a shipyard in Riva on Lake Garda, which regularly carries out such tasks for the Italians.

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"different hull shapes" is all relative.
Do notice that while Mader has been quite dominant in the Star, Folli and Lilia have had their moments of brilliance too.
In the 505, there are multiple "superboat" hull shapes that all vie for world champion status.

The existence of variations due to tolerances is not a problem in actual practice. But it is endless grist for the mill.

 

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

"different hull shapes" is all relative.
Do notice that while Mader has been quite dominant in the Star, Folli and Lilia have had their moments of brilliance too.
In the 505, there are multiple "superboat" hull shapes that all vie for world champion status.

The existence of variations due to tolerances is not a problem in actual practice. But it is endless grist for the mill.

 

It is not relevant because in those cases it is done legally and what we are discussing is cheating. it would only be relevant if somebody was deliberately building illegal Stars or 505's hoping to get away with it.

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Just now, Team_GBR said:

It is not relevant because in those cases it is done legally and what we are discussing is cheating. it would only be relevant if somebody was deliberately building illegal Stars or 505's hoping to get away with it.

Yes. That is true.
But if the J70 were to develop some tolerances, it would be a rational approach. What they have now is untenable because there is no way to be clear. How much is too much wetsanding? When you do a repair you have to "put it back the way it was" but what was it?
Yes these cheater keels were completely re-worked.

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Surely the keel and rudder are 3d machined female moulds.  Should be 100% accurate irrespective of where they are made.

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11 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Yes. That is true.
But if the J70 were to develop some tolerances, it would be a rational approach. What they have now is untenable because there is no way to be clear. How much is too much wetsanding? When you do a repair you have to "put it back the way it was" but what was it?
Yes these cheater keels were completely re-worked.

The funny thing is, that for all the problems with the rules and build quality, it seems that the only people who got lobbed were ones who had deliberately reprofiled the keels. Funny how in a fleet of 162 boats, everybody but the cheaters seemed to have found the rules pretty clear. The rules cannot be hurting the class that much if they can get that sort of turnout.

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But it is still a new class. Give them a few more years and see what happens. Boats age, manufacturing conti nues to vary.....it is a recipe for a mess.

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Why cant anyone build a boat to the plans? Why cant the designers push some quality standards into the program in exchange for the right to sell boats with the brand name? Seems to me they step back too early in the process. Ive met them and sold them parts and I dont think for a minute they think this situation is acceptable. It doesnt in any way excuse the cheaters trying to slide their boats in. Its just that the lack of consistency in the builds opens a door for some folks.

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