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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
notherday

J70, cheating and pros

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7 hours ago, JimC said:

Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues.

Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale. 

The one that failed was the brand new one that papa bought for son and then sent to "the best yard' to get it ready for Worlds.  Jr. never sailed the 70 before.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Recchi's has at least as many things wrong as Vincenzo's

"at least as many"....maybe is a bit strong? I understand friends are friends but....

what doesn't convince you in mr Recchi's letter?

thx

 

ps I thought you would answer post #56...it would be elegant in the context ;)  (did not quote again, hope you appreciate)

 

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Pretty cool live coverage from Mr. Clean, given the little resources...

Not much work getting done today.

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The one that failed was the brand new one that papa bought for son and then sent to "the best yard' to get it ready for Worlds.  Jr. never sailed the 70 before.

That's kinda the point.

If I read it correctly you're saying that all the boats that failed had a very similar illegally modified profile. It seems unlikely that all those owners specified the exact same illegal profile utterly independently. 

Then if papa was tweaking a boat for his son, you'd expect it to be the same spec as his own, that is presumably as optimised as he can get it. Instead as one passed and the other one didn't: they must have been pretty different. So I doubt papa supplied the yard with detailed drawings showing to the millimetre what changes he wanted made.

I bet if one could find the true story of how these boats came to be illegally modified it would involve poor communication, misunderstanding, false assumptions and goodness knows what else as much as a desire to cheat. If the organisers wish to RRS69 people, they'd need to establish who gave what instructions, all the rest. Fairly recent AC history illustrates the difficulties in establishing who was responsible for deciding to cheat. Fortunately to exclude illegal boats from the event you don't need any of the history, you just need to demonstrate the boat fails measurement.

 

 

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On 9/12/2017 at 0:59 PM, Alan Crawford said:

Fully agree with Team_GBR and others that cheating is cheating and there should have always been zero tolerance.  How do those construction practices compare with other sport boats like the Viper 640?

 

The Viper Class rules specify that the hull cannot be faired. The keel can be faired or repaired but if a keel has any work done it must comply with a class supplied template with tight tolerances which is available to members. We are a class that has a strict "as supplied by builder" basis to the rules but as the class grew the owners and their Technical Committee acknowledged the reality that foils get damaged and occasional imperfections occur in even the best production line. The rules were promptly amended to introduce a template. There is no temptation to veer away from the builder supplied shape because that shape is fast.

In the history of the class we have had one keel that did not measure in at a major championship . There was a spare keel available which was offered to the owner so that he had an opportunity to participate which he declined. Throughout the process the TC and the other owners never contemplated the word cheat. We took the view that it was a mistaken interpretation of the rules and the process is bruising enough for a disqualified boat's owner without speculating needlessly on intention.  He wasnt happy (miami is a long way) but everyone shook his hand, wished him well and hoped he would be back.

Tough break for the J70s but they will fix it. A well run class and its members should possess the humility to know that there is always room for improvement when it comes to class rules. The Viper Class has closed some loopholes in the past (fortunately without being in the glare of publicity). Doubtless there are parts of our existing rules which we will look back on in 5 years with embarrassment. The class rules are entirely owner driven aiming to make racing as fair and fun as possible.

 

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Recchi's has at least as many things wrong as Vincenzo's

Vincenzo should never have written his letter.

His son's boat was ruled by class measurer as not in compliance with class rules. You are entitled to disagree with that decision and have a hearing. There is no disrespect in asking for a hearing. But when the jury agree with the measurement process you accept the decision with courtesy.

Even if you disagree with the jury or even if the jury made a procedural error, you do not embark on a public tirade against your hosts.

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4 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Pretty cool live coverage from Mr. Clean, given the little resources...

Not much work getting done today.

Thanks Chuso, should be much better tomorrow once they split fleets and we have a better boat.

 

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5 hours ago, roca said:

"at least as many"....maybe is a bit strong? I understand friends are friends but....

what doesn't convince you in mr Recchi's letter?

thx

 

ps I thought you would answer post #56...it would be elegant in the context ;)  (did not quote again, hope you appreciate)

 

Let me look...

Recchi's letter keeps talking about 'the biggest one design regatta' or whatever, and it is not true.

 

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On 9/12/2017 at 11:35 AM, Tangonauta said:

As apparently is very important to underline name and NATIONALITIES of the "evil pros" behind the scene, I think it will be a pitty to forget to list the tactician of the italian event host(!) Vertigo.........the olympic medalist Charlie McKee.........from USA............

Please rectify...if we care about clear news...

Thanks

 

 

Sorry, missed this one until now.  The reason Charlie was not listed is that his owner did not register the names of the crew.  I ran with the info I had and would never shield Charlie from the news, not the way I play.  His name is going up there now.

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

That's kinda the point.

If I read it correctly you're saying that all the boats that failed had a very similar illegally modified profile. It seems unlikely that all those owners specified the exact same illegal profile utterly independently. 

Then if papa was tweaking a boat for his son, you'd expect it to be the same spec as his own, that is presumably as optimised as he can get it. Instead as one passed and the other one didn't: they must have been pretty different. So I doubt papa supplied the yard with detailed drawings showing to the millimetre what changes he wanted made.

I bet if one could find the true story of how these boats came to be illegally modified it would involve poor communication, misunderstanding, false assumptions and goodness knows what else as much as a desire to cheat. If the organisers wish to RRS69 people, they'd need to establish who gave what instructions, all the rest. Fairly recent AC history illustrates the difficulties in establishing who was responsible for deciding to cheat. Fortunately to exclude illegal boats from the event you don't need any of the history, you just need to demonstrate the boat fails measurement.

 

 

6 of them from the same yard.  One modified similarly, but done independently.  And there are a bunch more keels floating around Europe with issues.

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

Vincenzo should never have written his letter.

His son's boat was ruled by class measurer as not in compliance with class rules. You are entitled to disagree with that decision and have a hearing. There is no disrespect in asking for a hearing. But when the jury agree with the measurement process you accept the decision with courtesy.

Even if you disagree with the jury or even if the jury made a procedural error, you do not embark on a public tirade against your hosts.

Onorato and the current commodore had a huge falling out back in 2010 for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into, needless to say he does not forgive and he likes to make some noise every now and again.  I agree he did himself no favors, but there's a reason Italians are known as the fiery ones.  

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505 class rules state that any major work being done the boat must be re-measured before a class event. Specifically it must be weighed and correctors adjusted if necessary. 

Also many of the above referenced attempts to change the 505 were either rejected at the measurement level or the class level. Khans boats, the double floor Parker etc. 

So yes the tolerances are pretty big, and it results in different boats for different people but its still one design in so many areas. I only think the development portion is that the class regularly makes changes to improve the boat , long luff, HA foils, dual poles etc. I think that because of the scrutiny and flexibility there are less not more attempts to game (not cheat) the measurement system. People seem to know that these changes will be noticed and called out and that if you need a specific configuration,more rocker, fore or aft etc. that you can build one or purchase one with that feature, be competitive and still within the rules. 

So with the J-70 why are the boats not measured after the boat yard experience and issued a new certificate with the repair noted. Seems like that would discourage changing the keel wedges etc. Even our opti had a measurement book where we were supposed to note any repairs or alterations to specific parts of the boat. 

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no one is messing with wedges anymore, the class reined that in. Now it's just keel, and there are some grumblings about boats that may have added some structure in the stern, but that's entirely boatyard goss at the moment

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Not sure the website functionality could be any worse. Every link goes to another link to click, then half the pages do not work. Worse than the boat issues. At least those got thrown out, as we still have to deal with a crap site lol.

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You guys have to give it up with the comparisons to Stars and facking 505's.  Those are not "production" boats.  The j/70's are.  Their rules are such that unless specifically allowed, nothing may be changed.  Period.  No tolerances like 5 0hs, Snipes and Stars who made those tolerances originally for home building and multiple builders. 

Certainly, each boat is not identical due to many factors, including human, but I have a hard time believing that every top J70 team "shopped" their boats before purchasing.  Perhaps, but I'm betting not.   I assume that each J70 mold was made from one plug.   They may shop out the foils and keels, I really don't know. 

But the bottom line is it is a production boat, with strict rules.  Changing the shape or profile of any appendage or hull form is verboten.  Period.

Do not cheat and you can play.  Cheat and get caught, you may not play.

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How about instead of measuring all boats prior to the event, you measure the top 5  after the event.

 zero tolerance expulsion for measurement infractions. 

  have a chief measurer available prior to the event for participants who want to voluntarily verify compliance of their boat beforehand.

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17 minutes ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

How about instead of measuring all boats prior to the event, you measure the top 5  after the event.

 zero tolerance expulsion for measurement infractions. 

  have a chief measurer available prior to the event for participants who want to voluntarily verify compliance of their boat beforehand.

Nope.  Then you're going to string up people for potentially honest and small errors that could have easily been fixed and measured in.  Everyone makes mistakes now and then - for instance getting a lifeline stantion bent too far outboard during transport.

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On 12/09/2017 at 6:15 PM, sailforbeer said:

I don’t know why there is such a fuss about this.  The J/70 class is about to die; in a matter of a few years, it will be populated by club hacks and people will be bitching about it’s PHRF rating.  Maybe you didn’t see this, but I received this press release just today.  Really exciting stuff and I’m stoked to move on from the pokey J/70.


__________


September 12, 2017; Newport, RI:  The answer to racing sailor’s dreams is about to start production!  Presenting the brand new, totally unique, J/BravoSierra one-design speedster! 


After introducing the J/105 in 1991, and turning the sailing world upside down by claiming to be the first manufacturer to offer an asymmetrical spinnaker on a retracting J/sprit, and by referring to the boat in sophisticated Euro metric numbers instead of boring imperial feet, the J/marketing team now presents its latest naming scheme, using letters instead of numbers!  This revolutionary J/branding totally disguises the fact that we just enlarged our last boat on the photocopier at 107%.  And because we are going to use the word “speedster” in every press release and in every paragraph, it’s definitely going to be faster.


The new J/BS speedster redefines sailboat racing and shared adventure with friends and paid crew.  It fulfills the growing need to simplify payroll and reconnect with those you really can afford to sail with.  Strict class crew limits will ensure that no more than four crew are needed, unless there are five, and no more than three can be paid, with the other two or one able to be paid only if certain criteria, carefully enforced, are met.  And in an exciting break from tradition, owners need only sit ashore and write checks: no owner-driver rules to prevent this speedster from reaching it’s mediocre performance potential!


Imagine a fleet of mundane speedsters sprinting along, with owners enjoying a “dream circuit” of events that tie into regional “classic” races that everyone aspires to buy trophies for.  The pros will be salivating in their black Zhik jackets at the prospect of fleecing a new breed of owners.


Indeed, each new J/BS comes complete with your choice of crew gear in trendy all black, with lime green accents, or with neon yellow accents.  Both colorways will feature absurdly large J/logos, embroidered and screened in many places.  In another industry first, instead of being fast and light, the boat will be heavy but will look fast: instead of design development or modern materials, each J/BS will leave the factory with a stock keel and rudder painted orange!  This speedster will turn heads on the trailer!


Now is the time for the best marketed and most expensive per volume sailboat ever made!  The J/BS speedster – the latest one-design class meant to eviscerate the current one-design class (whatever that was).  Pure J/BS magic!
 

J-logo.jpg

Well played. :lol:

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59 minutes ago, J T said:

You guys have to give it up with the comparisons to Stars and facking 505's.  Those are not "production" boats.  The j/70's are.  Their rules are such that unless specifically allowed, nothing may be changed.  Period.  No tolerances like 5 0hs, Snipes and Stars who made those tolerances originally for home building and multiple builders. 

Certainly, each boat is not identical due to many factors, including human, but I have a hard time believing that every top J70 team "shopped" their boats before purchasing.  Perhaps, but I'm betting not.   I assume that each J70 mold was made from one plug.   They may shop out the foils and keels, I really don't know. 

But the bottom line is it is a production boat, with strict rules.  Changing the shape or profile of any appendage or hull form is verboten.  Period.

Do not cheat and you can play.  Cheat and get caught, you may not play.

That's a nice sentiment but given time, it becomes an unworkable position. Look at the J24. At some point you end up with new or multiple builders, with boats that have been restored after damage etc.

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59 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

Nope.  Then you're going to string up people for potentially honest and small errors that could have easily been fixed and measured in.  Everyone makes mistakes now and then - for instance getting a lifeline stantion bent too far outboard during transport.

Completely agree. Imagine if you were perfectly honest and thought you'd done everything right, only to find the load cell you'd weighed the boat with back home was a little off and you were missing a couple pounds of corrector weights. 

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50 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Completely agree. Imagine if you were perfectly honest and thought you'd done everything right, only to find the load cell you'd weighed the boat with back home was a little off and you were missing a couple pounds of corrector weights. 

If you're perfectly honest, use calibrated load cell. It's that simple. ;)

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Just now, elektroj said:

If you're perfectly honest, use calibrated load cell. It's that simple. ;)

Not always your choice. Let's say you did some local qualifier and weighed in right on the money. How many times have you asked to see the calibration certification at a regatta?  Would you want to get tossed because your boat came up two pounds light when you could've spent five minutes gluing a weight in? 

I have no problem with immediate post regatta inspections as well as the pre-race inspections for the top boats though. 

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On 9/12/2017 at 2:39 PM, fastyacht said:

OK fine:
1. GP14 is one design. So is 505. NOT "box" rule. Have you ever sailed or owned a 505?


I'll add more:

thistle
lighting

snipe

windmill

STAR

.....

the list goes on.....
and these boats are raced in numbers to this day....

Lots of other examples....

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

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On 9/12/2017 at 2:39 PM, fastyacht said:

OK fine:
1. GP14 is one design. So is 505. NOT "box" rule. Have you ever sailed or owned a 505?


I'll add more:

thistle
lighting

snipe

windmill

STAR

.....

the list goes on.....
and these boats are raced in numbers to this day....

Lots of other examples....

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

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Lots of quibbling.
Never said the I14 was a one design.
masts are restricted. No carbon. Aluminum or wood only. 4" max dimension (no wings).
Star as a "box" rule is laughable. Not at all true. I have the rule book.
Yes you could say that the 505 has some devlelopment elements:
blades
rigging
structural material
Still a one design though,
I also race canoes. They are not one design.

THe "ridiculous" part is coming from you notr understanding the POINT:
How to make a rule that can actually measure a boat to achieve substantially one-design results.
505, thistle, whathaveyou etc etc etc are good examples of this.
Just saying" no modifications or work permitted" won't work long term. Stuff breaks. Stuff wears out.

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3 hours ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

How about instead of measuring all boats prior to the event, you measure the top 5  after the event.

 zero tolerance expulsion for measurement infractions. 

  have a chief measurer available prior to the event for participants who want to voluntarily verify compliance of their boat beforehand.

That is a great solution, IMO.  Just like the winning 3 F1 cars are scrutinized after the race for compliance.  

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3 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Nope.  Then you're going to string up people for potentially honest and small errors that could have easily been fixed and measured in.  Everyone makes mistakes now and then - for instance getting a lifeline stantion bent too far outboard during transport.

It certainly would work if, as suggested, measurement compliance in advance, is available to all competitors.

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M24 has simple templates to measure fins against during pre-race measurement - it appears the J70 has them now as well ( you can see in the video the simple measurements and failures) - a little fairing does not seem to be the issue here. As clean inimate, there may be boats with additional internal structure. Apparently, there are some M24s that became more 'successful one designs'  after 'repairs' - still they had to meet 10-15 basic measurements, but structure and hull 'fariness' may not have been measured. Still these j70 fin measurement issues look to be grossly out of sync with fair play intent. Glad to see they have finally reigned it in. Its hard to believe the class grew this big with these known 'measurement' problems - these could be all recent and only related to Italy but with Greenwalds' issues, it seems to be rampant in the class.

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F1 has strict measurement of all cars on a regular basis and then does spot checks on the winning cars.  THis is not really a valid comparison for sailing regattas.

 

The assumption that only the top 5 boats need to be measured and legal discredits the efforts of all other racers.  All boats should measure properly so the 30th boat knows the 28th place boat didn't beat him/her due to an illegality.  

 

The fact that our sport has this problem....is a problem.  

 

Well done ITA J70 class association for taking proper steps to run a legitimate world championships.  BRAVO!!

 

This should be a mandate for all regattas.

 

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Lots of quibbling.
Never said the I14 was a one design.
masts are restricted. No carbon. Aluminum or wood only. 4" max dimension (no wings).
Star as a "box" rule is laughable. Not at all true. I have the rule book.
Yes you could say that the 505 has some devlelopment elements:
blades
rigging
structural material
Still a one design though,
I also race canoes. They are not one design.

THe "ridiculous" part is coming from you notr understanding the POINT:
How to make a rule that can actually measure a boat to achieve substantially one-design results.
505, thistle, whathaveyou etc etc etc are good examples of this.
Just saying" no modifications or work permitted" won't work long term. Stuff breaks. Stuff wears out.

Maybe reading it and seeing the various different hull forms are not your strong side...........................

 

Go sit in your box - correction OD 

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Christian---that is so silly. Tolerances. That's all. Still a one design. ALL one designs have this small "variation in shape"
They are not different "hull FORMS."  That is a gross distortion of what the small distortions actually mean.

Minimizing rocker is the most important one. But this isn't new, it goes way back. And is a small effect.
Having actually raced them back when the class was very very competitive (and I wasn't) I can tell you that Lillia, Mader and Folli all won championships. There was no clear advantage from one builder. That's the beauty of a good one design rule.
You can get all worked up about the tolerances and shout from the rooftops, "but it isn't a one design---look at the tolerances!" but in practice that is a deluded conceit.

 

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23 hours ago, fastyacht said:

"different hull shapes" is all relative.
Do notice that while Mader has been quite dominant in the Star, Folli and Lilia have had their moments of brilliance too.

 

 

So one can order a Mader designed and built hull or a Lilia designed and built hull or a Folli designed and built hull (just to take your example) each of which goes to some different corners of the tolerances in their design. and you still want to call that ONE design.  There are three just from your own example (never mind updates).

Then they are all fitted out differently.  Not to the one design.

What you have is different hull forms that fit tolerances.  Just because you choose to call that one design does not make it so. Just because the Star Class calls themselves one design also does not make it so if you give the word "one" its natural meaning.

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This is all so far off topic now.
I think you are missing the important point, which is absolute differences are very small.
Percentage differences are miniscule.
Whether you have a track or not or a high floor or a low one isn't fundamental>

Multiple champion sailors have sailed multiple builders boats to silver.

I am simply astounded by this argument. Do you have an agenda?

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3 hours ago, Christian said:

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

 

US sailing provides both a description of what it thinks One Design Means,

Quote

One-design is a form of racing where all boats are virtually identical or similar in design

Class-legal boats race each other without any handicap calculations, start at the same time, and the winner is the first to cross the finish line

and a list of one design boats.

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/small-boat-racing/one-design/list-of-one-design-classes/

This list of course includes, 505's, Stars, and many others.

You can say that the list is wrong, but that doesn't really help communication, you then have to make sure everyone knows that you mean One Design in a different way that US sailing (and probably many other national bodies ) use the term, and as a result different from the way most sailors use the term, and then explain exactly what you mean by it.

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43 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

 

US sailing provides both a description of what it thinks One Design Means,

and a list of one design boats.

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/small-boat-racing/one-design/list-of-one-design-classes/

This list of course includes, 505's, Stars, and many others.

You can say that the list is wrong, but that doesn't really help communication, you then have to make sure everyone knows that you mean One Design in a different way that US sailing (and probably many other national bodies ) use the term, and as a result different from the way most sailors use the term, and then explain exactly what you mean by it.

That litmus test you applied here also would then have class 40's, open 60's, tp 52's etc be "OD"

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

My favourite story of all time involving rules and how to game them is from early NASCAR> you probably know that story.

Smokey became "Streber" if you read Sail in the 70's

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13 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Onorato and the current commodore had a huge falling out back in 2010 for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into, needless to say he does not forgive and he likes to make some noise every now and again.  I agree he did himself no favors, but there's a reason Italians are known as the fiery ones.  

Alan.....you will recall that my old lady is Italian. Beautiful....amazing chef.....loves sailing.....good company and laughter.....AND some occasional tableware flying through the air. Its all good.

 

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14 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Thanks Chuso, should be much better tomorrow once they split fleets and we have a better boat.

 

Different driver?

I could tell you were on the edge of using stronger words when he was throwing wake in the wrong place. Good for you. 

Got a bit more competitor aware after that.

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Are all the binned boats European built? Last year Vincenzo lost his shit at the Swan worlds (also YCCS) after he protested his main rival in the s&s class for being improperly rated under ORC, they did a full re measurement of the protested boat and it turned out an even lower rating than before! Vincenzo had turned up with a fully optimised Swan 38 with most of the interior removed and was expected to walk away with the class win. It's fair to say that he didn't attend any more socials, skipped prize giving and went home. I see a pattern here lol the word around that regatta was that it was a particularly bad showing from him and he was overly sore

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4 hours ago, JL92S said:

Are all the binned boats European built? Last year Vincenzo lost his shit at the Swan worlds (also YCCS) after he protested his main rival in the s&s class for being improperly rated under ORC, they did a full re measurement of the protested boat and it turned out an even lower rating than before! Vincenzo had turned up with a fully optimised Swan 38 with most of the interior removed and was expected to walk away with the class win. It's fair to say that he didn't attend any more socials, skipped prize giving and went home. I see a pattern here lol the word around that regatta was that it was a particularly bad showing from him and he was overly sore

Sounds like he has the right temperament for an AC campaign.

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9 hours ago, Christian said:

That litmus test you applied here also would then have class 40's, open 60's, tp 52's etc be "OD"

I'm not sure those meet the 'similar' test well enough. And I don't see any evidence that other people do think they meet that test.

My main point was that saying Stars and 505s are not one design is very clearly outside the usage most sailor would use.

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Some one designs are more one design than other one designs.

Does that clear it up?

Back on point, changing the molded shape of the keel or bulb is flat out cheating according to the class rules as written.

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Do you remember the J24 worlds in Italy where the builder had altered the boats so much you tell when you just looked at them, the Italian measurer's had measured them in for the the Italian and Europeans.

I think they got lifetime bans

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11 hours ago, JohnMB said:

 

US sailing provides both a description of what it thinks One Design Means,

and a list of one design boats.

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/small-boat-racing/one-design/list-of-one-design-classes/

This list of course includes, 505's, Stars, and many others.

You can say that the list is wrong, but that doesn't really help communication, you then have to make sure everyone knows that you mean One Design in a different way that US sailing (and probably many other national bodies ) use the term, and as a result different from the way most sailors use the term, and then explain exactly what you mean by it.

I’m confused (an admittedly common state for me). I always distinguished between development classes and one design classes. I used to sail an international 14 – clearly a development class.

The USSailing list of one design classes includes the I-14 with a link to the class association. On the class association web site the first two sentences of intro includes:

being a development class, there is always something new in hull or rig to record. Change in fact, is what Fourteening is, and always will be, about.

So when did development classes become one design? When did one design become about “always something new in hull or rig”?

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Is it possible that USSailing is confusing level raising with one design? Two different concepts.

1. Level racing (finish order is finish order) vs handicap racing (finish order is finish time adjusted by some algorithm usually a source of ongoing debate and argument); and

2. One design (essentially identical boats) vs development class (different boats all meeting the same design "rules").

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8 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

US Sailing's site is sloppy. There is no category for "level racing" so they just lumped the 6 metres, 5.5 meters, 14s all in with "one design."

 

Well that fucks up that option for clarity.

I'm just trying to make sense of a world were people are saying that Stars are not one design and applying things that would also make Solings not One design. (Floors, rig setups etc). This leaves a large chunk of boats, without a reasonable description. They are not development classes, but they are not single builder one designs and they have some tolerance for variation  which can be exploited.

The problem is we end up with stupid semantic arguments instead of actual fruitful discussions.

 

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12 hours ago, DtM said:

So one can order a Mader designed and built hull or a Lilia designed and built hull or a Folli designed and built hull (just to take your example) each of which goes to some different corners of the tolerances in their design. and you still want to call that ONE design.  There are three just from your own example (never mind updates).

Then they are all fitted out differently.  Not to the one design.

What you have is different hull forms that fit tolerances.  Just because you choose to call that one design does not make it so. Just because the Star Class calls themselves one design also does not make it so if you give the word "one" its natural meaning.

Yes, I will still call that one design. Tolerances are an unavoidable part of building things in reality.

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One thing is clear or perhaps even the Fractious Few of us agree on. For the present moment, the J70 is a "SMOD" (single manufacturer one design.)  All of the Unintended Consequences apply. See Lasers, see J24, etc. Also note that some successful classes started out as SMOD and became classes. Thistle is an old example. JY15 would be a (nearly moribund) example. There are quite a number of classes that lost their single builder at some point.

The SMOD is sold (starting in earnest in the '80s) on the "simplicity" and "fairness" but that is often a conceit in my opinion. 
 

I used to own and race a V15. That was an SMOD. Lost its builder.....
One ironic thing about that was that there was no measurement at nationals.
 

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46 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

One thing is clear or perhaps even the Fractious Few of us agree on. For the present moment, the J70 is a "SMOD" (single manufacturer one design.)  All of the Unintended Consequences apply. See Lasers, see J24, etc. Also note that some successful classes started out as SMOD and became classes. Thistle is an old example. JY15 would be a (nearly moribund) example. There are quite a number of classes that lost their single builder at some point.

The SMOD is sold (starting in earnest in the '80s) on the "simplicity" and "fairness" but that is often a conceit in my opinion. 
 

I used to own and race a V15. That was an SMOD. Lost its builder.....
One ironic thing about that was that there was no measurement at nationals.
 

But there are 4 factories building them now, and they are not owned by J or are they affiliated with one another...  is this not the case?

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.jboats.com/contact-us/builders/amp

CCF Composites in USA

J/Composites in France

McConaghy in China

J/Boats Argentina in Argentina (the newest)

So it is not one (single) manufacturing facility.  It is more of a case where the first boat was one design, the following boats will be close...

So in the future the Class has to implement rules where there will be a measure with a tolerance built in. 

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17 hours ago, fastyacht said:

THe "ridiculous" part is coming from you notr understanding the POINT:
How to make a rule that can actually measure a boat to achieve substantially one-design results.
505, thistle, whathaveyou etc etc etc are good examples of this.
Just saying" no modifications or work permitted" won't work long term. Stuff breaks. Stuff wears out.

1

Fast...The J70 class rule allows for fixing shit.  It allows you to replace broken stuff.  If your keel gets pitted or gouged from use, repair it.  The rule specifically allows for that.  What it doesn't allow for is reshaping.  That's the issue here. The OD rules are pretty simple, and they work.  They even worked in this case, as the keels that didn't measure WERE NOT tossed because the owner tried to repair them, they were tossed because the owner reshaped them, got caught, and subsequently got tossed.

This has nothing whatsoever to bad class rules.  It has to do with the mentality of certain racing owners.  99.86% of racing owners around the world don't cheat.  The other .14% hopefully get caught and get their comeuppance.  It just so happened in the case of the 2017 J70 World Championships, a big percentage of that .14% showed up at once and skewed the numbers.

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1 hour ago, J T said:

Fast...The J70 class rule allows for fixing shit.  It allows you to replace broken stuff.  If your keel gets pitted or gouged from use, repair it.  The rule specifically allows for that. 

It's not really that cut and dry.

(c)
Gelcoat scratches and minimal damaged areas and minor molding imperfections such as print-through may be sanded and repaired, provided the as-molded shape in not altered

Define "minimal(ly) damaged." Anything beyond minimal damage would have to meet the rules of Section E.

MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
The following alterations may be made by a LM, or by anybody after a formal request  has been made to the LM and written approval is received by the owner. This shall require the manufacturer’s declaration to be reissued.
(a) If any hull appendage is damaged and requires to be repaired in any other way than described in section C the details shall be recorded on the Manufacturer’s declaration.

Given the scope and spirit of the rest of the rules, I would be inclined to interpret "minimal damage" in the strictest possible sense. That is, if you scrape a rock and gouge the keel, you should take a picture of the damage, send it to a LM and request permission to repair. The repair would then be documented and noted on the new cert.

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simple fix to this entire issue of shaping intentionally  cheating shapes to keels  of any OD Class is to write a rule into the Notice of Race which makes the penalty for cheating so onerous that cheating by ONE individual associated with the violation would be levied in equal measure to all associated with the boat.  Crew and owner alike in equal individual measure.

The idea that a boat is withdrawn after sailing a number of races and a slap on the wrist is given to it is bull****. That is not enough. The boat sailed and interfered with every other boat and person spending the coin to participate in the event. In my opinion the offenders should be fined in the amount of the entire fleet's entry fees both to the individuals paying the fee for a boat and to the association . the association can use the money to strengthen its ability to catch cheaters and the amount of the penalty to owners and crews on the offending boats will stop the cheating cold. Yes the cheating crew. And suspension as pros or amateurs till hell freezes. Fuck 'em. 

the dodge is "I didn't know!".   fuck 'em. Owners and Pros and the jerk who participates in shaping the 'cheat' are all guilty and the only thing that will make these dishonest fuckers stop is penalties too severe to ignore. 

To cheaters everywhere;  LEAVE AND DON'T COME BACK.

Strong opinion to be offered in future post........

 

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Must be nice to live in a black and white world like that...

I sailed with an illegal boat for several years, misread the rules and didn't trim a bulkhead enough so the foredeck was 2mm too high. 

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31 minutes ago, JimC said:

Must be nice to live in a black and white world like that...

I sailed with an illegal boat for several years, misread the rules and didn't trim a bulkhead enough so the foredeck was 2mm too high. 

Did you self report or just not mention it. Your self built ? boat is not an intentional cheat. I am addressing post manufacture boats in international , national, regional competition.  Why go easy on them. Cheating at that level is intentional. The world is not black and white, I agree. At the level of the worlds disqualifying cheating should be the responsibility of the crew to know, the Owner to know and the shaper/modifier to know. How else to change the paradigm? 

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The crew may or may not know. The owner would be assumed to know, as he paid for the work. The BN or skipper may know, if they directed the work to be done. The yard or contractor doing the work certainly knows. 

I have been at different positions in similar situations...as owner, BN, crew, worker, sailmaker, and measurer. Everyone wants their boat to be up to snuff and as competitive as possible. Even strict rules have some grey areas. My personal experience is that if you're getting into a grey area, it's best to call the class measurer, make your case, and get approval (preferably in writing), before doing the work. That approach has never failed.

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I would make a strong assumption that any owner of a J70 who sails at any regional, national or international event knows of what just went down.

  Give that,  one would have to assume that any work/modification to their boat would be in full purview of said owner.

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56 minutes ago, RKoch said:

That approach has never failed.

It can though. This is based on a true story, but I've changed things and it should be unspottable. Please don't attempt. Fred buys a second hand boat from someone well known in a class' estate. Whilst working on boat finds a quite horrendous piece of cheating that cannot really be properly rectified. Calls up class measurer, long associated with class and buddy of Bill, the late boat builder. Measurer feels really bad for poor bastard stuck with useless piece of junk that can never measure properly, and also doesn't really want scandal in his beloved class, and besides old Bill is dead now, and what good can it do digging up a scandal? Says to Fred OK, supposing you do this and this, I'm sure the boat isn't going to be any quicker than one that is built properly. Next year dodgy boat, superbly sailed, is near the front at the Nationals. Different measurer takes a good look at it...

Now consider a different and *completely imaginary* scenario (yes, completely imaginary, this isn't based on anything I've heard). Boss of 'best yard' (BBY) is a wonderful craftsman, but was never near the top of the class when it came to anything intellectual like reading or writing. Some years ago Cheating Bastard came to BBYs yard and said I want you to make these changes. BBY says "are you sure that's allowed"? CB puts his best used car salesman voice on and says, "of course, don't you trust me". CB wins big event with illegally modified boat. Next year two of CBs competititors come to BBY and say, we want you to modify our boats just like CBs. BBY says "I'm really not sure that's legal". Competitors say, "of course it is, especially as CBs boat went through measurement fine at the big event" (Although actually they just checked sails and weight). BBY says, "well, OK then", and does the work. Next year a few more follow, and by this stage BBY hasn't got the slightest doubt left. After all he's not that good with words, and haven't all these boats been through measurement?. Now Mr Zillionaire wants his son to race in an event opposite him. Buys boat, sends it to BBY with the simple instruction: do the best job you can on this, no expense, its for my son to race". Boat is modified illegally, like all the others. Zillionaires son and his mates step off the plane, and take the boat to the event, never having seen one before or having the slightest idea its been modded let alone illegally. Cheating Bastard isn't even at the event.

Timber gives Zillionaires son and mates lifetime bans. Zillionaire takes Timber to CAS. How long do you reckon the hearing will last before the ban is overturned?

 

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21 hours ago, billy backstay said:

It certainly would work if, as suggested, measurement compliance in advance, is available to all competitors.

I missed the prior bit.  If you have the ability to measure in prior with the same measurer who is going to do the after inspection, then I'd be 100% for it.

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In that scenario the ban should remain.  If you as a boat owner are allowing work to be done to your boat that you do not know with certainty is legal, you deserve the penalty.  Your excuse of "well everyone else is doing it" doesn't work for teenagers and it does hold water in this example.

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7 hours ago, sailman said:

Some one designs are more one design than other one designs.

Does that clear it up?

Back on point, changing the molded shape of the keel or bulb is flat out cheating according to the class rules as written.

I wonder what they would say if you put a much different looking keel on the boat with at least a 1 ft less cord length on it?:ph34r: 

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5 hours ago, Go4asail said:

But there are 4 factories building them now, and they are not owned by J or are they affiliated with one another...  is this not the case?

CCF Composites in USA

J/Composites in France

McConaghy in China

J/Boats Argentina in Argentina (the newest)

The easy answer is buy the J/70 built in Argentina.

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It would make sense to measure all boats before they leave the factory. This would likely reinsure future buyers that they are buying a legal boat. As it is right now who knows?

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By definition all boats are legal as they leave the factory.

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47 minutes ago, Tetonsail said:

It would make sense to measure all boats before they leave the factory. This would likely reinsure future buyers that they are buying a legal boat. As it is right now who knows?

Why is this not done for a class as huge as this?  Every boat should be delivered with a measurement certificate, that can be measured against in the future to ensure compliance?  WTF is so difficult about that??

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2 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

Why is this not done for a class as huge as this?  Every boat should be delivered with a measurement certificate, that can be measured against in the future to ensure compliance?  WTF is so difficult about that??

Maybe they are measured.  Do you know for a fact that they are not?  You think they just pop them out and send them on their way?

Again, this keeps creeping back that this is the fault of the builders.  This is the fault of fucking cheating owners.  There is nothing that anyone has presented on this thread that leads me to believe otherwise.

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6 hours ago, J T said:

.  99.86% of racing owners around the world don't cheat.

Lol, what alternate universe do you sail in?

First 7/175 = 4% rather than .14%.

And second cheating is reasonably pervasive thru the sport.  From the highest level (hello lead king post and mainsail which will not come down) to the mid-levels (hello j24many modifications) and to lower levels (hello youtube vids showing stacking and powered winch use in classes where they are not allowed).

It is a 'self-policing' sport, with many many opportunities to gain thru little evasions of the rules which are mostly not caught, filled with guys who often made their money by playing fast and lose with rules. It is unfortunately a perfect recipe for a lot of rule bending. 

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6 hours ago, J T said:

  The other .14% hopefully get caught and get their comeuppance.  It just so happened in the case of the 2017 J70 World Championships, a big percentage of that .14% showed up at once and skewed the numbers.

Dude. Are you a reporter for CNN?  You often pull quotes mid sentence without quoting "the rest of the story"? FFS

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

It can though. This is based on a true story, but I've changed things and it should be unspottable. Please don't attempt. Fred buys a second hand boat from someone well known in a class' estate. Whilst working on boat finds a quite horrendous piece of cheating that cannot really be properly rectified. Calls up class measurer, long associated with class and buddy of Bill, the late boat builder. Measurer feels really bad for poor bastard stuck with useless piece of junk that can never measure properly, and also doesn't really want scandal in his beloved class, and besides old Bill is dead now, and what good can it do digging up a scandal? Says to Fred OK, supposing you do this and this, I'm sure the boat isn't going to be any quicker than one that is built properly. Next year dodgy boat, superbly sailed, is near the front at the Nationals. Different measurer takes a good look at it...

Now consider a different and *completely imaginary* scenario (yes, completely imaginary, this isn't based on anything I've heard). Boss of 'best yard' (BBY) is a wonderful craftsman, but was never near the top of the class when it came to anything intellectual like reading or writing. Some years ago Cheating Bastard came to BBYs yard and said I want you to make these changes. BBY says "are you sure that's allowed"? CB puts his best used car salesman voice on and says, "of course, don't you trust me". CB wins big event with illegally modified boat. Next year two of CBs competititors come to BBY and say, we want you to modify our boats just like CBs. BBY says "I'm really not sure that's legal". Competitors say, "of course it is, especially as CBs boat went through measurement fine at the big event" (Although actually they just checked sails and weight). BBY says, "well, OK then", and does the work. Next year a few more follow, and by this stage BBY hasn't got the slightest doubt left. After all he's not that good with words, and haven't all these boats been through measurement?. Now Mr Zillionaire wants his son to race in an event opposite him. Buys boat, sends it to BBY with the simple instruction: do the best job you can on this, no expense, its for my son to race". Boat is modified illegally, like all the others. Zillionaires son and his mates step off the plane, and take the boat to the event, never having seen one before or having the slightest idea its been modded let alone illegally. Cheating Bastard isn't even at the event.

Timber gives Zillionaires son and mates lifetime bans. Zillionaire takes Timber to CAS. How long do you reckon the hearing will last before the ban is overturned?

 

As others have observed, you are OK with yourself and honest people getting fucked. Going back to find the first cheat is a Waste of F***ing Time and Money. Cheater is probably two classes bought and sold down the road and still doing others dishonestly and you are right there saying it's alright, I had fun anyway? 

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23 hours ago, fucket said:

Yes, I will still call that one design. Tolerances are an unavoidable part of building things in reality.

Exactly. Star is One design. Rules were written up back in the day of wooden hulls. Tolerances are inevitable. Who cares if your jib cleat or over or over there? Hull is measured within tolerances, boat meets weight, sails meet measurement, rig meets measurement...you've got a one design Star.  

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13 hours ago, timber said:

 you are right there saying it's alright, I had fun anyway? 

Didn't say that at all. Read it again. I am completely comfortable with all illegal boats being denied entry to every event. What I am saying is that there are circumstances where a crew might be completely ignorant of there being anything wrong with their boat, and suggesting that if you go handing out lifetime bans for a first offence in such circumstances that you would probably be reversed by CAS. Some recent CAS hearings are here. http://www.tas-cas.org/en/jurisprudence/recent-decisions.html to give you a flavour of how they operate.

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On 9/15/2017 at 1:34 PM, timber said:

simple fix to this entire issue of shaping intentionally  cheating shapes to keels  of any OD Class is to write a rule into the Notice of Race which makes the penalty for cheating so onerous that cheating by ONE individual associated with the violation would be levied in equal measure to all associated with the boat.  Crew and owner alike in equal individual measure.

The idea that a boat is withdrawn after sailing a number of races and a slap on the wrist is given to it is bull****. That is not enough. The boat sailed and interfered with every other boat and person spending the coin to participate in the event. In my opinion the offenders should be fined in the amount of the entire fleet's entry fees both to the individuals paying the fee for a boat and to the association . the association can use the money to strengthen its ability to catch cheaters and the amount of the penalty to owners and crews on the offending boats will stop the cheating cold. Yes the cheating crew. And suspension as pros or amateurs till hell freezes. Fuck 'em. 

the dodge is "I didn't know!".   fuck 'em. Owners and Pros and the jerk who participates in shaping the 'cheat' are all guilty and the only thing that will make these dishonest fuckers stop is penalties too severe to ignore. 

To cheaters everywhere;  LEAVE AND DON'T COME BACK.

Strong opinion to be offered in future post........

 

Phew.

 

Maybe time for a little fishing? I thought fly fishing was meant to be a relaxing past time that takes away the stress of life but maybe you stand on the bank and curse the fish? ;)

Protest Committees and juries deal with findings of facts. The finding was that a boat (boats) had its keel altered and thus did not measure in. A breach of rule 2 or 69 has a high hurdle of substantial evidence and we do not know all those facts.  

We know that (1) The keels were modified (2) It takes a deliberate decision to modify a keel  (3) There have been some posts by J70 owners claiming there is some ambiguity in the rule and its implementation. (4) The rule states that :

Quote

Gelcoat scratches and minimal damaged areas and minor molding imperfections such as print-through may be sanded and repaired, provided the as molded shape is not altered

Modification of the keel wedges is prohibited.

 

(5) Several of the boats that were deemed not to measure in were worked on at the same place.

The rest is speculation.

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, timber said:

As others have observed, you are OK with yourself and honest people getting fucked. Going back to find the first cheat is a Waste of F***ing Time and Money. Cheater is probably two classes bought and sold down the road and still doing others dishonestly and you are right there saying it's alright, I had fun anyway? 

 

Timber, FYI.....

The www.i550sportboat.com page isn’t working

www.i550sportboat.com is currently unable to handle this request.

HTTP ERROR 500

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On 15/09/2017 at 8:20 AM, Christian said:

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

The class association, the rules, the designer and the people who created the 505 specifically said, in writing and publicly, that the 505 is a one design. The Star class rules, the class association and the man who created it specifically said, in public and in writing, that the Star is a one design. Both the 505 and the Star were specifically created as one designs. The people who were involved were aware of the concept and what it meant, and many people involved with the 505 came from development classes so they were very aware of the difference. 

The fact that some variation is allowed does not mean that a class is not a one design. 

 

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On 15/09/2017 at 11:34 AM, DtM said:

So one can order a Mader designed and built hull or a Lilia designed and built hull or a Folli designed and built hull (just to take your example) each of which goes to some different corners of the tolerances in their design. and you still want to call that ONE design.  There are three just from your own example (never mind updates).

Then they are all fitted out differently.  Not to the one design.

What you have is different hull forms that fit tolerances.  Just because you choose to call that one design does not make it so. Just because the Star Class calls themselves one design also does not make it so if you give the word "one" its natural meaning.

The natural meaning of the term "one design" in sailing has been the same since Middleton introduced the concept in the 1880s. It's always allowed for variation; every class has some tolerance. But there is a huge variation between a loose OD and a development class.  

One would suggest that the man responsible for the introduction of the concept and the man who basically created the Star as a design and the guy who created it as a class would have had an idea about what they were doing. The fact that people from the USA these days tend to have no experience with development classes doesn't alter what a one design class is.

 

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On 9/13/2017 at 2:18 AM, fastyacht said:

All the dinghy classes learned this problem decades ago.
J-boats obviously either didn't listen, doesn't want to listen, or has some other motive.

This is why they had to build over 200,000 Lasers. They are disposable. True one design boats offer the best competition, but the boats don't remain competitive. Good turn over for the builder. 

J-boats figured out that when you can take  a 1985 J/24, using a bit of glass & filler to "repair", making her world class competitive. It's way better for the builder to build new boats.

Currently there are (3) J/70 builders. CCF(North America), J/Composites(Europe), McConaghy(Pacific). Who makes the fastest? 

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Seriously? I come back to this thread and it gets even more blurred and convoluted. 

The situation is clear. Some boats were lobbed because their keels had been reshaped to make the boats faster. This was not a mistake. they were not trying to take advantage of tolerances. They were not trying to ensure the keels were to their "designed" shape, whatever that might be. They were not taking out minor cosmetic faults and they were not repairing damage. Somebody had designed the modifications to the keel in order to make the boat faster. Changing the shape of the keel to make it faster is specifically against the rules and cannot be an accident. As this work was deliberate and intended, it was cheating.

Please stop trying to make excuses. This is not a case of the problem being the way the boats were built, or the class rules or the lack of templates. This was a deliberate attempt to cheat.

 

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I was just responding to the dinghy example. The J/70 class was built in response to the J/22 & J/24 madness. The Melges 24 has all those add on parts.  The J/70 is true one design competition. 

The cheating was simply that cheating. I don't see how it could not be seen that way. Reworking a Laser dagger board case or changing the rudder angle is likewise simply cheating. 

The unfortunate part of the bigger J/70 equation will be how quickly the serious people have to burn thru boats. It's a very new class. The reality is it could be good for people on the next level down who will get good boats for cheap in the next few years.

 

 

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Espo's Italian...they all cheat...and surrender.  On the sixth day of the 7 day war between Egypt and Israel, Italy surrendered. An I talian going to war has his hands held high.  

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I think Sailman at post 256 hit the nail on the head, so to speak.  Some one design classes are

"more" one-design than others.  If not, and since people have been throwing around the name of the

Star Class, explain the dominance of the P Yachts Star Boat. O, for that matter,  the Persson Snipe. 

The latter really did make every other Snipe obsolete. 

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