• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
notherday

J70, cheating and pros

324 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

 

The Merlin Rocket, National 12 , International 14, International Moth were all considered One Design development classes with an OD ethos.  

I have read some ill informed shit on these forums, but this takes all the awards. I have raced all 4 classes since I first started sailing and this is the first time anybody has suggested they are any form of one design. Maybe Jim is right "only in the US". Take the Moth. Of all classes, I think it has the most open and fewest rules of any class I can think of. You can build both skiffs and scows. I am not sure how anybody could consider using the words "one design" when it comes to the Moth considering how the class ethos is so anti one design. I could go on and explain each of the classes mentioned, but the story is the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, PeterHuston said:

Agree.

Victor was tactics, Jud strategy and no doubt rig tune/boat speed upwind.

This fleet had some unreal talent, one of the most talented, deep ever in any class.  In thinking back to legendary regattas, I can only think of DC's Star Worlds in '77 where he won almost every race as more definitive performance.

Hard for to me to see who is going to have a more impressive performance so that Peter Duncan doesn't win the US Rolex Yachtsman of the Year.  

Pretty strong rhetoric. There are many other classes more competitive than the J70, like say the Olympic classes. However, an impressive performance indeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, PeterHuston said:

Agree.

Victor was tactics, Jud strategy and no doubt rig tune/boat speed upwind.

This fleet had some unreal talent, one of the most talented, deep ever in any class.  In thinking back to legendary regattas, I can only think of DC's Star Worlds in '77 where he won almost every race as more definitive performance.

Hard for to me to see who is going to have a more impressive performance so that Peter Duncan doesn't win the US Rolex Yachtsman of the Year.  

So what's the price tag?  He doesn't win the Rolex, he bought it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/9/2017 at 2:48 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

Tell me about them and I'll get some interviews

 

Hi Alan, the interviews are up on Facebook... With no sound.

Any chance to watch them elsewhere?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pinner said:

Pretty strong rhetoric. There are many other classes more competitive than the J70, like say the Olympic classes. However, an impressive performance indeed.

How about 3rd Place in the absurdly competitive Etchells Winter Series this past season: http://www.etchellsfleet20.org/sheets/2017 Biscayne Bay Series Standings.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

are you telling me that Papa John's had a pizza template before the J70s had a keel template? Whoah!

 

papajohnspizzaquality.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

I have read some ill informed shit on these forums, but this takes all the awards. I have raced all 4 classes since I first started sailing and this is the first time anybody has suggested they are any form of one design. Maybe Jim is right "only in the US". Take the Moth. Of all classes, I think it has the most open and fewest rules of any class I can think of. You can build both skiffs and scows. I am not sure how anybody could consider using the words "one design" when it comes to the Moth considering how the class ethos is so anti one design. I could go on and explain each of the classes mentioned, but the story is the same.

Actually I have competed in all except the Moth.

That part of my post was describing the boundaries of one design racing. My point is that between the Laser strict SMOD and the development classes, there are a spectrum of classes with different degrees or rules & controls that describe One Design Racing.

The 14s run in the family . My father and uncles have been involved since the 1930s and we have a couple of POW replicas including the big one. In the earlier days they were thought of restricted classes not development classes. Out of the restricted classes came tighter one design rules and then the modern SMOD classes. The Merlin came about because Ranelagh  thought the 14 had got too expensive and they wanted a tighter design rule. They originally ordered identical boats and only later allowed development. Many years later I was sailing 14s at Corinthian and Merlins at Ranelagh.

I started sailing 14s during the late 70s as a kid when the same design was winning POW 10 years after it won its first POW. Then the 80s came roaring in with twin trapezes and rapid evolution and rapid obsolescence. 

I think chaos theory also applies to the so-called one design classes. If the rules permit no change and evolution, a class will wither and eventually shrink. If the pace of change is too fast, chaos takes over and the class shrinks. The most successful, enduring one design classes allow a certain amount of controlled evolution but not too much. For a long time, the 5-0-5 really got this right, allowing rule changes that kept the class modern and relevant. I think they made a mistake not opting for a carbon mast.

I now sail a strict, "as supplied by builder" one design and I love it. But my life in sailing reflects in many ways the progression of one design sailing from restricted classes which tried to introduce more equal racing between similar sized boats, to rule controlled one design (eg 5-0-5) to make racing even more equal, to strict SMOD.  I like where I am now...but I wouldnt have missed those fun years in the development classes where we just tried to be a little more "equal" than the next guy.

Sail fast and have fun....MK

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

who knows if the guy (Carlo) did not think of the opportunity of "killing two birds with one stone"...i.e. repairing the keel after the little damages AND altering the keel shape to get an advantage...you never know with italians (myself being proud of my nationality :D )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Furkolkjaaf said:

who knows if the guy (Carlo) did not think of the opportunity of "killing two birds with one stone"...i.e. repairing the keel after the little damages AND altering the keel shape to get an advantage...you never know with italians (myself being proud of my nationality :D )

I figure the Italian boat worker just looked at that club foot keel and decided it was wrong and took it upon himself to give it a bella figura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Plumber said:

I figure the Italian boat worker just looked at that club foot keel and decided it was wrong and took it upon himself to give it a bella figura

And who can blame him? 

But reading between the lines as more information is seeping out now. Is the problem that keels were reshaped illegally?  or is it that the keels from one builder were perceived to be faster than a keel from another builder?

Carlo makes mention of saying that all he did was remove his damaged keel and replace it with a keel from a J 70 that he had chartered.

Vincenzo mentioned something about taking a keel from a boat built by a legitimate builder and putting it on ML Junior.

Was this not about shaping keels but about swapping keels????  Are some club feet less misshapen than others?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this was swapping keels....then perhaps the "pollice verso" of the spectators of this roman games should pause before condemning the contestants as deliberate cheats.

To be honest I dont even know if swapping keels would be illegal in my class. My first reaction would be I think its okay.....then if pressed I would confess I really dont know....I would have to ask our Technical Committee.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Vincenzo mentioned something about taking a keel from a boat built by a legitimate builder and putting it on ML Junior.

Swapping was tried only after Junior got disqualified for initial keel as i remember it.

In case of Carlo: Sounds like disqualification by association with Riva shipyard. But could also be an smoke bomb to deflect responsibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swapping boats, not keels, would solve the problem. That's what happens in one design collegiate racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy when boats are owned by clubs, or like IODs it's a small class and everybody knows everybody else. 

I doubt people would be too keen to hand over their boat to a complete stranger. He crashes and you're the one without a boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. Need to have an arrangement where clubs own them or you get the boat of the person who crashed yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congrats to Peter Duncan on his win.

Carlo's letter is pretty interesting to me. Does anyone have the facts to his situation from a 3rd party? If his letter is truthful, then he did nothing wrong, advised the measurement committee of his actions, and his boat never failed measurement, they just declared it illegal under some sort of guilty until proven innocent clause? I'd be taking that decision on up the appeals chain then to CAS frankly, but I'm sure there is more to the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Congrats to Peter Duncan on his win.

Carlo's letter is pretty interesting to me. Does anyone have the facts to his situation from a 3rd party? If his letter is truthful, then he did nothing wrong, advised the measurement committee of his actions, and his boat never failed measurement, they just declared it illegal under some sort of guilty until proven innocent clause? I'd be taking that decision on up the appeals chain then to CAS frankly, but I'm sure there is more to the story.

Unfortunately Appeal is not available as they had an International Jury. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, samc99us said:

Congrats to Peter Duncan on his win.

Carlo's letter is pretty interesting to me. Does anyone have the facts to his situation from a 3rd party? If his letter is truthful, then he did nothing wrong, advised the measurement committee of his actions, and his boat never failed measurement, they just declared it illegal under some sort of guilty until proven innocent clause? I'd be taking that decision on up the appeals chain then to CAS frankly, but I'm sure there is more to the story.

That's not what I read.  I read that he replaced his keel just prior to measurement with another boat's.  Why he did that is left open to speculation.  It does, indeed, seem that they threw him out based on suspicions of why he changed out his keel.

I read it a couple times, but the translation simply isn't good enough to parse exactly what happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish people would consult J/70 Class Rules, Builder Specifications and J/70 FAQs before defending Carlo's actions.

All are available here, btw: http://www.j70ica.org/class-office-rules

Was Carlo's keel changed by licensed manufacturer or with the approval of the licensed manufacturer and his boat’s Manufacturers Declaration re-issued? Most probably not. The emphasis here is on words 'licensed manufacturer'. The Technical Committee for the event has no saying in this matter, I'm afraid.

From FAQs

Quote

10. What changes and repairs can be made to my boat?
Because the Class’s Rules are “Closed Class Rules”, no changes or repairs are permitted to the boat unless they are specifically permitted. Section C of the Class Rules and the Building Specification describe all the changes or repairs that are permitted. Any other changes or repairs to the hull, hull appendages or rig, must be made by the licensed manufacturer or with the approval of the licensed manufacturer under CR D.2.5, E.2.2 or F.2.3. If you have any questions about a modification or repair, please contact a member of the Class’s Technical Committee. In the event of any modifications or repairs required to be made or approved by the licensed manufacturer, the boat’s Manufacturers Declaration will have to be re-issued.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, elektroj said:

I wish people would consult J/70 Class Rules, Builder Specifications and J/70 FAQs before defending Carlo's actions.

I must of missed people defending him.

Or are you confused by people asking difficult questions like "How can I repair something to its "as molded" shape when there are no templates?" which is not the same thing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

I must of missed people defending him.

 

I defended him!

Was obviously a personal attack. The regatta sucked, was windy so no boats on the racecourse, 'cause they are poorly designed, constructed. Instead was a witch hunt. I call bull**** on the whole event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/09/2017 at 3:15 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

 And there are a bunch more keels floating around Europe with issues.

Floating, eh? Those much be seriously out of measurement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, elektroj said:

The emphasis here is on words 'licensed manufacturer'. The Technical Committee for the event has no saying in this matter, I'm afraid

Its an interesting one. I was tangentially involved in an issue at another class that was having measurement problems, and a culture of not observing a similar provision had grown up in the class, and that seemed to me a factor in some of the problems they were having.

There are pros and cons with having a 'no changes, authorised builder and no measurement' one design rule, and pros and cons with having a purely measurement based rule, but if a class has the first, but gets in the habit of behaving as if it were the second then trouble will often ensue I think. But then there are plenty of posts in this thread that illustrate perfectly how sailors have trouble appreciating the considerable distance between the two styles of rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now