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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Editor

cool or horrifying?

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6 minutes ago, Editor said:

We're not sure. What do you think?

Irresponsible.  Like children doing Jackass stunts.  Good luck with that.  Show some respect for the sport.  No trophy for idiots.

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Very impressed by them not needing to sit in the back of the boat downwind.  With that much wind the boat handled quite well, I am a chicken shit and would not have had a kite up.  But then I have had my boat doing 16 knots with a double reef and #4 chicken shit jib up.

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Just a bit overcanvassed

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Let he who is without a spinnaker wrap throw the first stone.

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I might consider pinning in the washboard, and tethers. But I'm old and have kids. Coming home alive is desirable.

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They took lessons from Tom Scott.  Nevertheless, kudos for continuing to race under marginal conditions. 90% of socal boats would have retired rather than race back upwind.

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1 hour ago, racingnews said:

Irresponsible.  Like children doing Jackass stunts.  Good luck with that.  Show some respect for the sport.  No trophy for idiots.

But there are for know-all, dick smoking windbags. Here is yours.

 

Worst-Trophy-Ever.jpg

 

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Looks like a bunch of sailors enjoying their toy.  It also seems the toy is forgiving mistakes that would end their   fun on most boats. 

I would have enjoyed riding along 

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Can't think of a single thing about J92's that isn't cool.

Now, if it was J29's we were talking about, I'd say that bathtub cockpit was kind of terrifying...

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56 minutes ago, 42 South said:

Did they even use their tethers? The guy on the leeward side was a man overboard candidate....

1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

I might consider pinning in the washboard, and tethers. But I'm old and have kids. Coming home alive is desirable.

We didn't use tethers. We discussed using those before and after the sailing. See for example this post. I would prefer being on the water waiting to be picked up over being dragged next to the boat going 15kts (and closer to 10kts even when broaching a bit). It is really difficult to tether in a way you definitely stay inside the boat, except for cockpit. Guy (gal in fact) who was on the water twice had drysuit on, as did two others as well.

2 hours ago, typefaster said:

Fast downwind is always great, until you realize you have to go back upwind.

We went upwind first (for the most part, there was some beating after downwind leg)

1 hour ago, jerseyguy said:

Just a bit overcanvassed

Smallest sails we had (except probably could have used storm jib instead of smallest #3, but then again beating with storm jib in big waves is not working very well).

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Cool.  Best sail of my life - Round the Island 2016, blowing 30-40 knots, top speed 18 knots with two sails - not brave enough for gennaker (or to go forward of last 6 feet).

Briggrin2.jpg

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Another downwind clip from day before with multicamera footage, smaller crew and a bit lighter winds (around 25kts instead of 30-40).

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1 hour ago, the_abandoned_brane said:

This. We all did dumb shit with boats 

Glad you said that AB. I thought this was just fun :) We do wear tethers at night. 

  

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Least we were trimmed better than the guys in the video, but Shaggy next time we do that can you let me know about the 200kg of chain and anchor in the bow locker.

I was having trouble keeping the bow up!

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What's a tether? Is that something that stops pussies from getting their fur wet?

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3 hours ago, typefaster said:

Looks like fun.

Fast downwind is always great, until you realize you have to go back upwind.

+1

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1 hour ago, joku said:

We didn't use tethers. We discussed using those before and after the sailing. See for example this post. I would prefer being on the water waiting to be picked up over being dragged next to the boat going 15kts (and closer to 10kts even when broaching a bit). It is really difficult to tether in a way you definitely stay inside the boat, except for cockpit. Guy (gal in fact) who was on the water twice had drysuit on, as did two others as well.

We went upwind first (for the most part, there was some beating after downwind leg)

Smallest sails we had (except probably could have used storm jib instead of smallest #3, but then again beating with storm jib in big waves is not working very well).

Need smaller main. Storm or trysail, or another reef or just a smaller main.

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21 minutes ago, lydia said:

Least we were trimmed better than the guys in the video, but Shaggy next time we do that can you let me know about the 200kg of chain and anchor in the bow locker.

I was having trouble keeping the bow up!

I had it all safely in my garage but Ian came and stole it back.

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2 minutes ago, High Flow said:

Need smaller main. Storm or trysail, or another reef or just a smaller main.

We get this kind of winds very occasionally (this was the second time for this boat in a few years, I believe), so it is not worth buying&carrying storm/trysail, or adding a 3rd reef. In case of emergency, we could still manage to make it to safe harbour without that (with overpowered 2nd reef / with storm jib / with jib only / with engine).

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2 hours ago, pasta514 said:

Looks like fun. How often do you get to go out in conditions like that?

Oh, you need to move to Auckland. The last couple of years have been mentally windy. 

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10 minutes ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Oh, you need to move to Auckland. The last couple of years have been mentally windy. 

I should too, as we're getting this kind of winds perhaps five times per year, and some of those are during winter.

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Love it. Much more impressive watching clubbies send it than paid pros on paid boats who are always a phone call away from an evac & 5 star hotel. 

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Not sure what the fuss is about.  No symmetrical kite to play with, how can it possibly be edgy?

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Looks like lots of fun to me (except for the upwind probably needed to reduce sail).

Here's us 2 handed with the symmetrical kite up leaving Wellington gusting over 40 true at times. Top speed about 18.5, a lot flatter water though

 

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I see nothing too unpleasant, let alone horrifying. There are plenty of terrifying clips recorded in benign conditions, but with inept crew.

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       Looks like fun. How often do you get to go out in conditions like that?

               Oh, you need to move to Auckland. The last couple of years have been mentally windy. 

Or there's Cook Strait.  It's sometimes windy and usually cool there.  Here's 45+ knots breeze, on the same day the Volvo ocean race restart from Auckland was delayed (too windy), boatspeed average 25 (up to 30) in a 40 footer. Only 2 sails (shoulda tried harder?).  Not much horrifying, heaps of cool... 

 

And here's 35 feet, going nearly as fast, on the same day ... 

 

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6 hours ago, racingnews said:

Irresponsible.  Like children doing Jackass stunts.  Good luck with that.  Show some respect for the sport.  No trophy for idiots.

HTFU   you pussy

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27 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

That looks like great fun Scanas, love the Jamaican accents. 

 

 

They definitely took it to 100%. Can't go any harder or bigger than that. 

I'm responsible for most of the views  of the Crusader videos! 

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For video...really hit the wow factor.  For good sailing example, not even close.

Hey, I was young, was prone to fly a hull on the cat, push the old pocket cruiser, but the day I threw two gennies (150,170) on a double forestay with a full main and tried to run downwind in 25-30....I stopped that shit.  From one moment to the next I went from flying at the top of a wave to rolling 90 degrees and putting 2 feet of water in the boat.  That wasn't exciting, it was stupid.

Between the lack of main trim, the not dropping of a gennaker with a ratsnest of line, then watching as some released the sail so it had to get hauled in from the back....there needs to be some basic seamanship revisited or learned.

I learned that keeping the boat flatter was faster (and more exciting, less scary) upwind.  I learned that if you don't know how to trim a big sail in heavy breeze, it should not be up, and I learned that if you take stupid risks, the percentage of stupid things happening increases along with the potential for injury or death.  Perhaps the next video might see this bunch of young bucks in a similar breeze, but sailing smarter and as exciting.

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So cool. I really miss that quick wet stuff. I'm too old for that now and I don't like getting bashed into the boards anymore.

As for teathers you use them to walk outboard of the gunnels. If your shipmates will comeback for you, you don't need a teather so much. If they intend to continue to enjoy the sail without you well . . . you might wanna tie off.

At any rate you have two hands; One for you, one for the boat.

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Good seamanship in those kiwi vids: washboards in, hatch shut, weight back, sensible sail choice to deliver a fabulous ride, whole crew dialled in to the task, shit-eating grins on! 

Meanwhile in the SAAC boards there's concerns that etnz might make foiling monohull dull. Really? Yeah, no!

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The Kiwi vids make the OP look more than a bit tame bro. 

And WTF are the 3.8m waves quoted in the OP?  Looked <2m to me.

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6 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Always does on video

Yes, as I have noticed, but it's still not 3.8m.

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13 minutes ago, random said:

Yes, as I have noticed, but it's still not 3.8m.

I bet yours is bigger and you have measured it.

 

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Looks like a good time, and I bet the guys learned something about line management and rethought the best approach to take down a kite in that type of breeze.

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6 minutes ago, knuckles said:

Looks like a good time, and I bet the guys learned something about line management and rethought the best approach to take down a kite in that type of breeze.

Indeed we did learn a bit about keeping slack sheets tied up. The problem started when while broaching slack line needs to be opened, and then it was no-one's responsibility to secure it again. For jib (during takedown), it was a conscious decision to let it be and save the kite, and clean up the mess afterwards.

Kite takedown failed when tack line got opened by accident. Until that point everything went according to the plan, and after that it was not pretty.

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47 minutes ago, random said:

And WTF are the 3.8m waves quoted in the OP?  Looked <2m to me.

I have no idea where you took that 3.8m. In any case, I took that readings mentioned on the video and in description from nearby local meteorological institute's observation data.

I also have no idea how you are going to measure waves from wide-angle videos without any good reference points, especially for longer waves.

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15 minutes ago, joku said:

Indeed we did learn a bit about keeping slack sheets tied up. The problem started when while broaching slack line needs to be opened, and then it was no-one's responsibility to secure it again. For jib (during takedown), it was a conscious decision to let it be and save the kite, and clean up the mess afterwards.

Kite takedown failed when tack line got opened by accident. Until that point everything went according to the plan, and after that it was not pretty.

I love seeing the boatspeed on the video whilst you're pulling in that soggy kite...

Speed shrimping! :)

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3 hours ago, SCANAS said:

 

Cooooool!

10 hours ago, Editor said:

We're not sure. What do you think?

horrifying 

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7 hours ago, joku said:

We didn't use tethers. We discussed using those before and after the sailing. See for example this post. I would prefer being on the water waiting to be picked up over being dragged next to the boat going 15kts (and closer to 10kts even when broaching a bit). It is really difficult to tether in a way you definitely stay inside the boat, except for cockpit. Guy (gal in fact) who was on the water twice had drysuit on, as did two others as well.

We went upwind first (for the most part, there was some beating after downwind leg)

Smallest sails we had (except probably could have used storm jib instead of smallest #3, but then again beating with storm jib in big waves is not working very well).

Tethers are of course an optional thing, and a bit sucky, but I'm not sure you'd have been able to get back....  especially if you thought you couldn't stop the boat if someone fell over.

no washboard and you're inviting a sinking in a bad wipeout. 

Just some thoughts is all for the next time...

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I'm all for burring the rail but that was defiantly too much canvas for me!  There's a fine line between courageous and stupid.  I'm glad everything worked out.

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12 hours ago, longy said:

They took lessons from Tom Scott.  Nevertheless, kudos for continuing to race under marginal conditions. 90% of socal boats would have retired rather than race back upwind.

Shhhh! If you're mean, he'll never come back!

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Little bit scary this on the other hand is a lot scary

 

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8 hours ago, random said:

The Kiwi vids make the OP look more than a bit tame bro. 

To be fair to the original poster, the boats in the two cook straight vids are mega dollar canters. They are pretty impressive nonetheless.

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Good point Battleship, but yes, they are still very cool!

Same thing for us, we might be a cruiser more than an outright race boat, but still a newer and more expensive  hull design copied from a race class as compared to the OP.

I love watching em all!

 

 

 

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Horrifying.  We all witnessed the video of the small boat that ended up under the pier in Cali.  This could have been a similar problem.  Sheets getting balled up to the point the sail can't go in or out.  Lesson learned?  Always keep your lazy sheet snug, especially in heavy air.  This could have been a disaster!

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17 hours ago, racingnews said:

Irresponsible.  Like children doing Jackass stunts.  Good luck with that.  Show some respect for the sport.  No trophy for idiots.

100 % with you.. When you can't even master basic handling manoeuver why would you expose yourself doing stupid stunts.. Publishing it to you just add insult to injury

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6 hours ago, sweetaction1 said:

Looked like fun to me crew was organized and no one looked stressed at all.

Organized !!! They barely know what they are doing ! 

6 hours ago, sweetaction1 said:

 

 

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7 minutes ago, antoine said:

Organized !!! They barely know what they are doing ! 

 

They did an okay job of hauling in the shrimp net!! LOL! 

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10 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

For video...really hit the wow factor.  For good sailing example, not even close.

 

Yeah, this.  All credit and kudos for getting out in the weather, chaps, and for tossing your video pearls among  us forum swine, but that excursion was *way* more exciting than sailing in 30 kts wind needs to be and burying the rail made it slower than it had to be.  Next time it's a little sporty out, drag an experienced guy out to show you how to trim and drive it better.  You'll have a smoother ride that goes faster, and the poor bastard working the low side of the boat will be dryer and warmer, plus it won't endanger your expensive gear.<--- voice of sad experience there.

And take more great video and report back.

 

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Horrifying is an IOR boat dead down wind in 35 knots with 10 to 12 foot waves,

and nobody's brave enough to go below for a beer...

That's the horrifying part,

The sailing in all these videos was ok by me...

if that's how they want to do it.

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Thanks Scanas,

That was fun in a slightly demented way...... 

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J 92 guys are having fun, and while there is heaps of room for improvement, we learn by doing. If I may suggest trimming the main upwind, and the vang down. Helm seemed tentative and this could be from lack of main trim. Flat is fast, and hatchboards are a good call on days like that. 

I took a Mull/Dono Pocket Rocket 22 out in 30+ with some surfing buddies and one sailor when in my late teens. All good until rudder broke. I learned why anchors need chain that day. Skipping anchor! When rudder finally severed, I dove off into 60 degree water to retrieve it, paddled back to boat and we punched holes in the blade and lashed it to spin pole for a Huck Finn steering oar. This got us from Fernald's Pt the couple of miles back upwind into SB harbor. I was thankful to have another sailor aboard. Thanks, Marty! Everyone stayed cool, and that made all the difference. In fact, two of our guys swam in to some divorcees' beach house at Miramar to call harbor patrol (no VHF or cell phone) and were invited into her hot tub! We were all surfers, and used to wind and waves and cold water. 

Don't be afraid to test your abilities. This is why Europeans and Antipodeans often kick Yank ass in big breeze. They are racing, and Yank is surviving. Plus back in my day our designs tended to be beamier for flat water and lighter air, and a narrow form goes through big seas better.

Go big or go home! Giddyup, Joku!

 

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On 9/11/2017 at 9:06 PM, Dense505crew said:

I am surprised that they were not sitting further to the back of the bus while going downwind.

Not the first vid I've seen of a 92 going d/w in breeze w/crew clustered mid-ish boat.

 

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6 hours ago, SCANAS said:

17knots BS & wipe outs a plenty. 

Looks like a great race but who ever is on the vang is phoning it in!

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It is funny how comments in this thread can be categorized roughly to following buckets:

  • "Idiots, stay home instead"; stupid comments on how everything is shit
  • Constructive commenting about what went wrong, what could be done etc.
  • "Cool"/"Wow"/...
  • Cool videos/photos from others

A single wide-angle video - especially one including cuts - is missing a lot of information, as you can't know what happened before the cut, outside of the picture, and have only very rough idea of the conditions.

What I learned from reading this thread is that people make awful lot of assumptions. For example, 

  • Upwind trim: as crazy as it sounds, we trimmed for good VMG for the sails we had available for the conditions we had. We went way faster and higher while being heeled way too much. What went wrong was way too tight main sheet in tacks shown on the video.
  • Canvas size: yes, we knew very well we had way too big sails upwind. However, that is the smallest jib we have (in addition to a very small storm jib, which would not provide enough power to move us forward in that wind and in those waves). We don't have more than two reefs on the main. But we decided to go to learn anyway, instead of "oh well, we don't have optimal sails for this weather, let's stay at home".
  • Video does not show what happened before kite takedown (except that we managed to mess up the lazy sheet, but reasons for that are not visible on the video). Assuming that is how we planned to take it down is... stupid. Everything went according to the plan until tackline was accidentally opened (first a bit and then fully). Until that point everything was fine, and kite was coming down nicely.
  • Downwind trim & kicker: it is not visible from the video, but true wind was basically straight behind us. Kicker is just tight enough to keep the sail from twisting around lower spreader. Letting it out more would not help, and we did not need more power downwind. 
  • From the experience we knew even on a really bad wipeout waterline is not coming even close to the hatch, so we did not have washboard in place. Thinking about it now, there is no particularly good reason not to put it there just to be overly careful.
  • There was ~2 hours of video, and what was shared were the best and the worst moments. It could have been cut it to only include good hoist, nice downwind clips (for 15 minutes or so), and a few good tacks, some upwind before going to heaviest winds, and no-one would know what happened. However, what we have understood over the years is that pushing the limits, failing miserably together with experienced people, and then learning and sharing those failures is the best way to learn.

 

 

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23 hours ago, joku said:

I have no idea where you took that 3.8m. In any case, I took that readings mentioned on the video and in description from nearby local meteorological institute's observation data.

I also have no idea how you are going to measure waves from wide-angle videos without any good reference points, especially for longer waves.

Video never does well with showing wave/chop height. 

Next time you're out in that try 3 things:

1)- Ease the jib out about 10 inches.  Or at least play it in the puffs.  When the main is ragging you have lost the slot between the main and jib which slows the boat and makes it harder to control upwind.

2)- Look for a flat spot to tack the boat and tack with speed. 

3)- You need someone playing the vang DW.  When you feel the unmanageable weather helm kicking in call for an ease on the vang and keep the bow down, (in the video it looks like you were just kinda letting the boat round up with not much tiller work until the boat was over) and that will stop the round ups.

 

 

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

1)- Ease the jib out about 10 inches.  Or at least play it in the puffs.  When the main is ragging you have lost the slot between the main and jib which slows the boat and makes it harder to control upwind.

Good points. About this one, with 2nd reef on the main jib is not backwinding the main. There's no good slot between jib&main, as the main is so small. In general, this is what we do with full main (but change in jib sheet is something like 2-5cm, not 25cm).

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dunno what the fuss is about -- you go out and screw it up, learn how to handle it next time.

Better then than 3am in the morning after a groggy off-watch.  Now *that* can be horrifying.

Those Gorge shots show a whole lot of stuff going on - but I've got to give kudos to the crew for keeping their shit together. Very calm.

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