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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Tempest

Yachtmaster Certification

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Hey Guys,

I ran a quick search and didn't find any threads on the topic.  I'm seriously considering paying to get a Yachtmaster certification as I'm pretty much dead-set on spending my life on the worlds oceans.  Skippering other peoples boats sounds like a great way to make money and I want to have the knowledge and experience for my own personal gratification.

How much should a guy expect to pay and are there any recommended courses/schools operating in the PNW?  It may actually be better to go somewhere hot to learn so I'm open to suggestions.

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The cost depends on how much training you need prior to the final exam. You can enter the RYA scheme at whatever level your previous experience dictates, You don't have to start at the beginning and cover things you already know. Many schools offer a 'zero to hero' fastrack program that covers all training and prerequisites prior to arranging the final examination. Personally I think that a school in a warm place that operates year round is best and 27 degrees 27 minutes south is widly regarded as the ideal latitude to learn at. :) If you drop me a PM with a brief resume of your experience i can give you an idea of where you are at and an indication  of what you need to do to achieve your goal. Regardless of where you do your training ensure that is at one of the hundreds of recognized RYA training centres around the world.

Beware that in the US and other places there are a bunch of charlatans called IYT (International Yachtmaster training) that offer a product called 'Yachtmaster' but don't touch them with a barge pole if you want to work in the industry or be taken seriously. Or in many cases ever want to see your money again.

 

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IYT is Canadian and while not nearly as widely known or functional as the RYA, the licenses work just fine - been working on an IYT issued MCA approved YM Ocean with no issues for the last 6 years.  If you're trying to go down the sail training/educational route then definitely benefits to going with RYA, particularly if you're British, as can't teach RYA courses at RYA schools without being an RYA instructor.

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1 minute ago, hdra said:

IYT is Canadian and while not nearly as widely known or functional as the RYA, the licenses work just fine - been working on an IYT issued MCA approved YM Ocean with no issues for the last 6 years.  If you're trying to go down the sail training/educational route then definitely benefits to going with RYA, particularly if you're British, as can't teach RYA courses at RYA schools without being an RYA instructor.

No, IYT was started by an Irishman who had his the RYA recognition removed and went to the US where he registered the IP 'Royal Yachting Association' and 'Yachtmaster.' This of course was defeated after legal action.  Yes the MCA did recognize some of their certificates but that is very much under question now. The parent company in the US closed down and left many many people having to travel to the UK to complete courses at their own expense. Many got nothing. Someone in Canada may well be claiming that IYT is from there - there is a guy in Australia claiming he now runs it as well. . And again No you cant teach anywhere in the world at any of the nearly 2000 RYA schools around the world unless you are an RYA Yachtmaster - regardless of your nationality. I am glad it worked out for you but the vast majority of owners will only hire RYA. You see we conduct examinations on board a vessel for 8 -12 hours. IYT have done them over the phone. One of my colleague who runs a RYA school 'secret shopped' IYT by taking up his offer to become an IYT school. They simply sent him an IYT YM cert in the mail. By achieving an RYA Yachtmaster you have proved that you have been examined to the worlds best practice by the worlds largest maritime training organisation. By achieving an IYT Yachtmaster you have proved you can pay someone some money. I am not in any way questioning your competency  mate (there are plenty of highly competent people with absolutely no Quals) but for someone setting out to work in the game the most respected certification on earth is the best option. For example, the IYT Yachtmaster Cert is not recognized for commercial use in Australia, RYA most certainly is. 

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

The cost depends on how much training you need prior to the final exam. You can enter the RYA scheme at whatever level your previous experience dictates, You don't have to start at the beginning and cover things you already know. Many schools offer a 'zero to hero' fastrack program that covers all training and prerequisites prior to arranging the final examination. Personally I think that a school in a warm place that operates year round is best and 27 degrees 27 minutes south is widly regarded as the ideal latitude to learn at. :) If you drop me a PM with a brief resume of your experience i can give you an idea of where you are at and an indication  of what you need to do to achieve your goal. Regardless of where you do your training ensure that is at one of the hundreds of recognized RYA training centres around the world.

Beware that in the US and other places there are a bunch of charlatans called IYT (International Yachtmaster training) that offer a product called 'Yachtmaster' but don't touch them with a barge pole if you want to work in the industry or be taken seriously. Or in many cases ever want to see your money again.

 

Is it true I need to turn my instruments off and make a passage to qualify?

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51 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Credit Card

As JS said in Aus the only piece of paper you need to present them with is a leaf from your cheque book. In Europe it is an ICC (international certificate of competence) issued by the RYA to anyone holding Day Skipper Prctical or one can be directly assessed- takes about 3- 4 hours.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Is it true I need to turn my instruments off and make a passage to qualify?

We examine both paper and electronic Nav in the modern era. But one of the definitions of a YM offshore is that they can navigate with out staring into a Nintendo navigator. Yachtmaster ocean still has a celestial component but it is more about Comms, global weather, routing and boat prep for ocean passage making these days. 

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The two schools I know of in the US who offer RYA Yachtmaster courses and qualifications are MPT in Florida and Confident Captain in Newport RI. There may be others. As LB15 points out, IYT does not offer RYA qualifications, but their own "Yachtmaster". When I did a course with MPT, they flew an RYA examiner in from the Canary Islands for the final exam as the other RYA examiner they had access to was our instructor.

Mark.

 

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10 hours ago, LB 15 said:

No, IYT was started by an Irishman who had his the RYA recognition removed and went to the US where he registered the IP 'Royal Yachting Association' and 'Yachtmaster.' This of course was defeated after legal action.  Yes the MCA did recognize some of their certificates but that is very much under question now. The parent company in the US closed down and left many many people having to travel to the UK to complete courses at their own expense. Many got nothing. Someone in Canada may well be claiming that IYT is from there - there is a guy in Australia claiming he now runs it as well. . And again No you cant teach anywhere in the world at any of the nearly 2000 RYA schools around the world unless you are an RYA Yachtmaster - regardless of your nationality. I am glad it worked out for you but the vast majority of owners will only hire RYA. You see we conduct examinations on board a vessel for 8 -12 hours. IYT have done them over the phone. One of my colleague who runs a RYA school 'secret shopped' IYT by taking up his offer to become an IYT school. They simply sent him an IYT YM cert in the mail. By achieving an RYA Yachtmaster you have proved that you have been examined to the worlds best practice by the worlds largest maritime training organisation. By achieving an IYT Yachtmaster you have proved you can pay someone some money. I am not in any way questioning your competency  mate (there are plenty of highly competent people with absolutely no Quals) but for someone setting out to work in the game the most respected certification on earth is the best option. For example, the IYT Yachtmaster Cert is not recognized for commercial use in Australia, RYA most certainly is. 

Fair enough - I don't know the back history of IYT, nor would i disagree with the statement that doing your YM with RYA is a better option.  When I did my exam with IYT in 2010 the course and exam were very competently run, with full day exam on boat by an examiner and very thorough testing and oral examination once we got off the boat.  Haven't been to a course with them since, and know that the school I did that with (IYT in Lauderdale) dissolved amidst some mysterious shenanigans, so have no idea what current situation is, other than that when I renewed my license it was straight forward.  Obviously don't want to shell out for an RYA license as long as i can keep working with my IYT issued ticket, but if I were starting from scratch now I would go with RYA.  In 2010 I couldn't find any RYA schools in US that would offer YM.

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How are your interpersonal skills?

all the successful  pro skippers I have ever met have come across as being the nicest, calmest most sensible  of people

they combined the skills of reliable driver, man of action, good leader, clean, tidy, fragrant, hospitable, patient,  entertaining and good at teaching.

The paperwork is good to have but if you are hoping to do this as a career as an escape from a tough life.....

I am generally regarded as being a good all round egg

but I would be really, really crap at it.  I worked in the adventure holiday trade for a couple of summers and pretty soon got pissed off with working with eejits.

 

Dylan

 

 

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I'm glad there are schools out there but like Dylan I have no desire to hold any certs.  I'm not in the industry and don't want to be, this is my hobby not my vocation.  

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10 hours ago, LB 15 said:

As JS said in Aus the only piece of paper you need to present them with is a leaf from your cheque book. In Europe it is an ICC (international certificate of competence) issued by the RYA to anyone holding Day Skipper Prctical or one can be directly assessed- takes about 3- 4 hours.

In Europe there is no common rule on yachting certification.As a result for chartering there is also no common rule. It is true however  that an ICC will help in many places. And for ICC itself, the way to get on depends also on each country's certification scheme.  Funny example : overhere it was (or still is) common to get the full ICC (=sailing +motorboating) by doing the easy motorboat examination, 60 multiple choices questions on pc, did that in 10 minutes and had 58/60, and next when filling in the paperwork to get the little plastic card, at the bottom there was a tab one could cross with as text : "and I solemnly declare I can also sail".... badabing, instead of just getting the motorboat ICC I got the full whack ICC, hah

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10 hours ago, LB 15 said:

As JS said in Aus the only piece of paper you need to present them with is a leaf from your cheque book. In Europe it is an ICC (international certificate of competence) issued by the RYA to anyone holding Day Skipper Prctical or one can be directly assessed- takes about 3- 4 hours.

I don't think that you need a certificate here to rent a boat, they just ask you for a CV, you could probably make it up but they will know just by talking of some technical stuff if you have experience or not.

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13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Try Thailand...hot and beers cheap and they throw in a free girl with every Yachtmaster course.....though I would check first to make sure she hasn't got a rudder.

"That's CAPTAIN Ladyboy to you, scallywag!"

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I thought you guys were talkin about the USCG captains license (OUPV 6-pack).  Is this a more recreational licensing scheme you guys are talking about?

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It would help if you clarified where you are and what you want to operate.  In The US the USCG deals with merchant mariner credentials.  It's still a rather open system and you can pay your fee $140 and just go take the test provided you meet the base criteria, seatime etc. for the given credentials.  There are domestic and international ratings in the US. Not all countries recognize them.  IE I'm a 100 ton master w/aux sail, and a Chief Engineer limited oceans, 1st assistant engineer unlimited.  I looked into working in New Zealand, they were very helpful, I would have to test out at there equivalent rating so no rudder stamp, but there would be some credit.  If you are indeed trying for a MMC there are lots of schools, even ones you can get full ride scholarships for like Kings Point. These are four year schools that you come out with a degree and a 3rd mate or 3rd assistant eng.

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1 hour ago, MauiPunter said:

I thought you guys were talkin about the USCG captains license (OUPV 6-pack).  Is this a more recreational licensing scheme you guys are talking about?

In the UK, the RYA offers a recreational licensing scheme that can, with some extra classes to get a commercial endorsement, becomes the lowest level commercial ticket, so a commercially endorsed RYA Yachtmaster Offshore is similar to a USCG 100 ton license - the parallels are not exact, given differences in tonnage, distance from safe haven, LOA restrictions, etc, but it's a qualification widely used in the yachting world as many private yachts are red-flagged and most of the red-flag states recognize and use the british licensing scheme.

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As noted above, depends on which country / countries you will be working in. Us CG lower level tickets do not require any actual operating experience, you can get qualified sea time working as a wait staff. If you own the boat you write yer own seatime.Test is all paper, mostly rules of the road, bouyage, night lights recognition. RYA actually tests you on the boat size you want to qualify on, with many problems to solve during testing.

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4 hours ago, hdra said:

In the UK, the RYA offers a recreational licensing scheme that can, with some extra classes to get a commercial endorsement, becomes the lowest level commercial ticket, so a commercially endorsed RYA Yachtmaster Offshore is similar to a USCG 100 ton license - the parallels are not exact, given differences in tonnage, distance from safe haven, LOA restrictions, etc, but it's a qualification widely used in the yachting world as many private yachts are red-flagged and most of the red-flag states recognize and use the british licensing scheme.

That's pretty much it RYA YM with commercial endorsement can serve as master to 200t/24mts on recreational boats used for commercial purposes- in other words charter boats, white boats and as of this year- all those sailing in the Volvo race. Not intended for trading vessels. ICC is purely recreational. 

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7 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I don't think that you need a certificate here to rent a boat, they just ask you for a CV, you could probably make it up but they will know just by talking of some technical stuff if you have experience or not.

Ever heard of the CEVNI rules pano? 

You need that to go ditch crawling through the French countryside on a hire boat.

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5 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

It would help if you clarified where you are and what you want to operate.  In The US the USCG deals with merchant mariner credentials.  It's still a rather open system and you can pay your fee $140 and just go take the test provided you meet the base criteria, seatime etc. for the given credentials.  There are domestic and international ratings in the US. Not all countries recognize them.  IE I'm a 100 ton master w/aux sail, and a Chief Engineer limited oceans, 1st assistant engineer unlimited.  I looked into working in New Zealand, they were very helpful, I would have to test out at there equivalent rating so no rudder stamp, but there would be some credit.  If you are indeed trying for a MMC there are lots of schools, even ones you can get full ride scholarships for like Kings Point. These are four year schools that you come out with a degree and a 3rd mate or 3rd assistant eng.

The IMO (international Maritime Organisation) are only concerned with foreign going masters over 200t- below that each country can do what they like and there are some very odd qualifications in some country's ( with the US six pack being about the oddest!) That is one of the reasons that the RYA quals are international recognised. They are fit for purpose.

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You won't find too many superyacht skips these days having anything this than a Master 3000 tonnes. It wasn't too long ago that that you could run the biggest toy coming out of the yards at the time with nothing more than than a smile and solid references. 

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Wow, lots of good info here, guys.  Let me say this, I have ZERO interest in being a "Creditcard Captain".  I want the practical experience and knowledge to operate safely and proficiently on oceans that are anything but.  This would be primarily for me but, if it happened to allow me to work on other boats in foreign places, that is a huge upside.  My interest is in sailing and not in motor yachts.

What I've read so far is leading me to believe that a RYC Yachtmaster certification is the way to go but, so far, all I've been able to find are schools in England and Spain that want 10,000 Euros for a course which seems a little excessive (but maybe it's a good value, I have no idea) and then I would have lodging and airfare on top of that.  It would be nice to find a school in the PNW that would teach me everything close to home but that may be a daydream.

A lot of the webpages I've found are all marketing wank.  Offering very little or weekend warrior courses for $500 which sound more like sightseeing tours.  This site sounds the most legit so far or... if not legit at least reasonably priced but it may be lacking critical instruction. http://www.ispa.com/course-schedule.html

I'm guessing 7 days is not enough time to become a proficient captain.

Where am I at?  Well I have my White Sail I & II that I got when I was 15ish (I'm now 35).  Dinghy sailed last summer.  Bought a 23' boat this summer which I've sailed the shit out of and I've been racing all summer on 23'-25' boats.  I spent 2 weeks sailing desolation sound with my buddy last summer on a 37' cutter which involved route planning with tidal currents etc but we didn't sail at night at all.  I've never actually sailed at night.

No illusions here boys, I need to do a lot of leaning but I don't want to waste time or money learning about points of sail or naming the parts of a boat (I'm past that point).  What I need is navigation and weather instruction, route planning instruction and experience sailing larger boats. 

As for how big I want to go.... I have no idea.... but being able to skip a 60'-100' sailboat would be incredible.

10 hours ago, dylan winter said:

How are your interpersonal skills?

all the successful  pro skippers I have ever met have come across as being the nicest, calmest most sensible  of people

they combined the skills of reliable driver, man of action, good leader, clean, tidy, fragrant, hospitable, patient,  entertaining and good at teaching.

The paperwork is good to have but if you are hoping to do this as a career as an escape from a tough life.....

I am generally regarded as being a good all round egg

but I would be really, really crap at it.  I worked in the adventure holiday trade for a couple of summers and pretty soon got pissed off with working with eejits.

 

Dylan

 

 

I'd say I'm quite likeable and I'm cool in a crisis.  Don't think the interpersonal side of things would be an issue.  I don't know that I would want to skip full time but it would be nice to have it as an option and be able to pick up gigs here and there, especially if it were to further fund my sailing and traveling.

Nope, not looking for an escape from a tough life, just as a means to enrich it and make myself a more knowledgeable and flexible sailor.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Ever heard of the CEVNI rules pano? 

You need that to go ditch crawling through the French countryside on a hire boat.

I let Swiss admirals deal with freshwater. At sea you don't need a licence unless you skipper a mobo, I just have the coastal one as I don't trust the stinky things. 

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That is a great pity- when we transited the  rivers and canals of your beautiful country it was one of the most enjoyable boating experiences I have had. You should go and give it a try someday. 

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2 hours ago, Tempest said:

Wow, lots of good info here, guys.  Let me say this, I have ZERO interest in being a "Creditcard Captain".  I want the practical experience and knowledge to operate safely and proficiently on oceans that are anything but.  This would be primarily for me but, if it happened to allow me to work on other boats in foreign places, that is a huge upside.  My interest is in sailing and not in motor yachts.

What I've read so far is leading me to believe that a RYC Yachtmaster certification is the way to go but, so far, all I've been able to find are schools in England and Spain that want 10,000 Euros for a course which seems a little excessive (but maybe it's a good value, I have no idea) and then I would have lodging and airfare on top of that.  It would be nice to find a school in the PNW that would teach me everything close to home but that may be a daydream.

A lot of the webpages I've found are all marketing wank.  Offering very little or weekend warrior courses for $500 which sound more like sightseeing tours.  This site sounds the most legit so far or... if not legit at least reasonably priced but it may be lacking critical instruction. http://www.ispa.com/course-schedule.html

I'm guessing 7 days is not enough time to become a proficient captain.

Where am I at?  Well I have my White Sail I & II that I got when I was 15ish (I'm now 35).  Dinghy sailed last summer.  Bought a 23' boat this summer which I've sailed the shit out of and I've been racing all summer on 23'-25' boats.  I spent 2 weeks sailing desolation sound with my buddy last summer on a 37' cutter which involved route planning with tidal currents etc but we didn't sail at night at all.  I've never actually sailed at night.

No illusions here boys, I need to do a lot of leaning but I don't want to waste time or money learning about points of sail or naming the parts of a boat (I'm past that point).  What I need is navigation and weather instruction, route planning instruction and experience sailing larger boats. 

As for how big I want to go.... I have no idea.... but being able to skip a 60'-100' sailboat would be incredible.

I'd say I'm quite likeable and I'm cool in a crisis.  Don't think the interpersonal side of things would be an issue.  I don't know that I would want to skip full time but it would be nice to have it as an option and be able to pick up gigs here and there, especially if it were to further fund my sailing and traveling.

Nope, not looking for an escape from a tough life, just as a means to enrich it and make myself a more knowledgeable and flexible sailor.

Sounds like you don't yet have the minimum sea-time requirements to sit for the Yachtmaster Coastal or Offshore, so not worth doing a course till you have that:  http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/exams/Pages/yachtmaster-coastal.aspx

Sounds like you have the interest and access to get that sea-time fairly quickly. I would then look at courses. I do not know of any in the NW USA, only NE http://www.confidentcaptain.com/courses/rya-yachtmaster-certification and SE http://www.mptusa.com/course/300-RYA-Yachtmaster-Offshore-/-Yachtmaster-Coastal-/-Master-of-Yachts-200

 

 

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8 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

That is a great pity- when we transited the  rivers and canals of your beautiful country it was one of the most enjoyable boating experiences I have had. You should go and give it a try someday. 

One of the reasons I built a shoal draft vessel was to keep open the possibility of swanning about on the European canal system. Probably never bother but recreational boats aren't practical things anyway so what the hell.

WRT licensing the NSW Govt gave me a mobo licence 40 years ago and MAST Tasmania happily gae me one here on that basis. What more could I possibly need?

FKT

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23 minutes ago, morwood said:

Sounds like you don't yet have the minimum sea-time requirements to sit for the Yachtmaster Coastal or Offshore, so not worth doing a course till you have that:  http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/exams/Pages/yachtmaster-coastal.aspx

Sounds like you have the interest and access to get that sea-time fairly quickly. I would then look at courses. I do not know of any in the NW USA, only NE http://www.confidentcaptain.com/courses/rya-yachtmaster-certification and SE http://www.mptusa.com/course/300-RYA-Yachtmaster-Offshore-/-Yachtmaster-Coastal-/-Master-of-Yachts-200

 

 

That is true, I do not.  There don't really seem to be any well laid out plans for going from where I am now to YM.  I was assuming a guy would be able to gain the required experience by taking courses, or a course, that would prepare you for the YM exam and help you meet the prereqs.

 

That Confident Captain course sounds like it's getting closer to what I'm looking for.  Still kinda shocked that a guy could be a Yachtmaster in 15ish days.

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33 minutes ago, Tempest said:

That Confident Captain course sounds like it's getting closer to what I'm looking for.  Still kinda shocked that a guy could be a Yachtmaster in 15ish days.

You can't. You have to have built the experience first. If you have the experience, the Yachtmaster course/test formalises and consolidates a lot of stuff you probably already know and then tests your competency with it. In the RYA/UK context it is designed as the end of a series of courses: Competent Crew -> Day Skipper -> Coastal Skipper -> Yachtmaster with you building experience/sea-time along the way.

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14 hours ago, dylan winter said:

How are your interpersonal skills?

all the successful  pro skippers I have ever met have come across as being the nicest, calmest most sensible  of people

they combined the skills of reliable driver, man of action, good leader, clean, tidy, fragrant, hospitable, patient,  entertaining and good at teaching.

The paperwork is good to have but if you are hoping to do this as a career as an escape from a tough life.....

I am generally regarded as being a good all round egg

but I would be really, really crap at it.  I worked in the adventure holiday trade for a couple of summers and pretty soon got pissed off with working with eejits.

 

Dylan

 

 

Bingo Dylan. Before every Yachtmaster exam I point out to the candidate that this is as much a management qualification as it is a sailing one. A good skipper is someone who completes the trip in a competent manor in about the time frame planned. They also need to return with the same number of crew they left with in the same or better state of health and all should have enjoyed the experience. One of main questions we examinors ask ourselves when deciding the outcome is -would I let this person take my family on my boat out for a sail. 

 

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1 hour ago, Tempest said:

That Confident Captain course sounds like it's getting closer to what I'm looking for.  Still kinda shocked that a guy could be a Yachtmaster in 15ish days.

You can't be a yachtmaster in 15 days. You could achieve a day skipper practical certificate with 15 days training but in the RYA we do not promise anyone they will get a qualification at any level. Day skipper is an entry level Qualification that basically teaches the skill set to skipper a boat in inshore waters by day. 

My advice would be to do just that, then get as much experience on your own and other people's boats as you can then look at doing the coastal skipper certificate. 

The pre requisite experience before the RYA Yachtmaster offshore exam is 50 days on board, 2500 miles (1/2 of this offshore) and must include 5 trips of over 60 miles of which 2 were overnight and two that the candidate was skipper on. The boat must be a Yacht that is capable of and equiped for coastal passage making. (To try to avoid the usual shitfight about what is a 'yacht' , it is not an etchell or a traitor sailor in this context)

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55 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

Experience isn't coursework.  Nothing wrong with course work but if you want to be proficient you have to have time on the water. 

Competency is achieved when a body of knowlage meets a body of experience. 

Knowlage can be easily quantified but experience is a very individual thing. There are some chaps at my club who have been practicing their bad habits for 40 years and now have them perfected. The volume of the yelling is the best indicator of this. 

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1 hour ago, morwood said:

You can't. You have to have built the experience first. If you have the experience, the Yachtmaster course/test formalises and consolidates a lot of stuff you probably already know and then tests your competency with it. In the RYA/UK context it is designed as the end of a series of courses: Competent Crew -> Day Skipper -> Coastal Skipper -> Yachtmaster with you building experience/sea-time along the way.

Well said.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

One of the reasons I built a shoal draft vessel was to keep open the possibility of swanning about on the European canal system. Probably never bother but recreational boats aren't practical things anyway so what the hell.

 

It was great and I would like to go back and explore more but probobly not on a yacht next time. The rig sticking out the front and back can make locking a drama and even with a modest draft (our was 1.8mts) we couldn't always stop were we wanted. You can send your rig on a barge or truck but I was concerned we would never see it again- at least in one piece. 

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I was considering the USCG six-pack, but now you guys are swaying me towards the RYA course path.  Im close on the pre-req.  I actually have the mileage over my life time but some of it is undocumented, so, figured I would wait till I have recorded mileage I can show.  I've been sailing on boats since I was like 5yrs old and probably have 10k miles in reality but only like 2000 mi recorded on my sailing log on my chart plotter for my own boat.    What counts as mileage and how is it determined?

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11 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Competency is achieved when a body of knowlage meets a body of experience. 

Knowlage can be easily quantified but experience is a very individual thing. There are some chaps at my club who have been practicing their bad habits for 40 years and now have them perfected. The volume of the yelling is the best indicator of this. 

I also know guys with an extensive body of knowledge who exhibit no skill.  Kind of works both ways.

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1 hour ago, Bryanjb said:

I also know guys with an extensive body of knowledge who exhibit no skill.  Kind of works both ways.

Isn't that what I just said?

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1 hour ago, MauiPunter said:

I was considering the USCG six-pack, but now you guys are swaying me towards the RYA course path.  Im close on the pre-req.  I actually have the mileage over my life time but some of it is undocumented, so, figured I would wait till I have recorded mileage I can show.  I've been sailing on boats since I was like 5yrs old and probably have 10k miles in reality but only like 2000 mi recorded on my sailing log on my chart plotter for my own boat.    What counts as mileage and how is it determined?

Do your homework and look at all the associated costs.  A international endorsement requires a STCW cert which can be several thousand dollars in classes and weeks in time outside of the ticket.  The 100-200ton masters courses are good and something I would recommend over a six pack course.  

 

Seatime in the us is based on tonnage and area of operation.  If you were sailing offshore it's that time madness the tonnages of the boat.  They have forms you can fill out and submit.  It's all up to a individual evaluator to determine exactly what you get.  For commercial operations the company or captain are required to provide a letter of seatime.  In rare cases like commercial fishing you are allowed time and a half of you are working 11 plus hrs per day.  Also if you work somewhere you get random DOT drug testing a separate letter stating such will meet the drug test requirements.

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5 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

I've got an extensive body & I go both ways. Can you post me a Cert LB?

Its in the mail mate. You owe me lunch- wait is this a PM? :)

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8 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

I've got an extensive body & I go both ways. Can you post me a Cert LB?

Is being an obese bisexual enough to get you a ticket in Aus? Now I know where AC/DC is coming from.

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17 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Do your homework and look at all the associated costs.  A international endorsement requires a STCW cert which can be several thousand dollars in classes and weeks in time outside of the ticket.  The 100-200ton masters courses are good and something I would recommend over a six pack course.  

 

Seatime in the us is based on tonnage and area of operation.  If you were sailing offshore it's that time madness the tonnages of the boat.  They have forms you can fill out and submit.  It's all up to a individual evaluator to determine exactly what you get.  For commercial operations the company or captain are required to provide a letter of seatime.  In rare cases like commercial fishing you are allowed time and a half of you are working 11 plus hrs per day.  Also if you work somewhere you get random DOT drug testing a separate letter stating such will meet the drug test requirements.

Sea time has always been a difficult thing to prove- in terms of the quantity, quality and worth, since Hornblower was a lad. That is why the RYA assessment tool of a practical demonstration is so robust. You can write what you want in a log book but you have to demonstrate that you can do it during the exam. One of my fellow examiners is a well known wordsmith and he once wrote in an exam report 'he was the finest yachtsmen I had ever met. And then we left the dock...'

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6 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Is being an obese bisexual enough to get you a ticket in Aus? 

Sorry ish but you will have to learn to sail as well. You might even drop a few pounds during your training- who knows? 

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9 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Is being an obese bisexual enough to get you a ticket in Aus? Now I know where AC/DC is coming from.

Being a large body of opinion also helps ....

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I was just looking up the three RYA certs, coastal, offshore and ocean.

probably have enough time for offshore, with two runs from Sydney and Melbourne to Hobart and 12 weeks stooging around the PNW.

Its not easy to judge time, these two experiences are so different.

Have to drop another S2H trip because it is out of the 10 year limit, which doesn't make sense, we had to do all chart, celestial and RDF nav on the first trip, much better experience than the recent ones.

What is the story on a course, and I expect the exam should be in a school boat if there is no course in Hobart?

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17 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

I was just looking up the three RYA certs, coastal, offshore and ocean.

probably have enough time for offshore, with two runs from Sydney and Melbourne to Hobart and 12 weeks stooging around the PNW.

Its not easy to judge time, these two experiences are so different.

Have to drop another S2H trip because it is out of the 10 year limit, which doesn't make sense, we had to do all chart, celestial and RDF nav on the first trip, much better experience than the recent ones.

What is the story on a course, and I expect the exam should be in a school boat if there is no course in Hobart?

Schools run Yachtmaster exam prep courses normally over 5 days- basically the candidate needs to turn up at the start of the week with the skills and theory and the course is designed to fill in any gaps, polish practical skills and give people a chance to practice things under instruction. It isn't a recognised RYA course as such but something schools offer to give students every chance of passing. We tailor ours to the needs of each candidate and often do some 'mock examining' early on to see what those needs are. Sea time isn't that relevant to the outcome ( it is not as if there is a sudden dawning of enlightenment  between the students 2499th and 2500th mile at sea.)

as i recall the average pass was around 3200 and the average fail was 3100 last year meaning it is the quality of the sea time, not the amount that matters. 

The Ocean exam is done AFTER the Offshore has been successfully completed and the candidate has completed an ocean passage (doesn't have to be on a school boat) and had taken sights during the passage. It is an oral exam. (A chap once showed up after completing his passage on Fairstars Pacific Princess- he was sent off to find a less stable platform) 

You can take the YM coastal or offshore exam on your own boat if you wish (provided that the boat is suitable - over 10mtrs and equiped for costal passage making) 

we can arrange an examiner to come to Tassie to conduct the exam - it helps if there are a couple of candidates to share the expenses.

This is quite common as even if we do have an examiner in the area because they often know the candidate persnoly and you can not examine anyone you know or have taught.( this is a very good rule) But it is probobly cheaper to jump on a plane to Syd, Melbourne or Brisvegas and join a scheduled school exam boat. In my experience it is better to do the exam not on your own boat and in unfamiliar waters as you don't assume anything. You aren't expected to have any knowlage that isn't on the chart or in the pilot book so local knowlage doesn't help. 

If you want to PM me your experience I am happy have a look. (At no charge in case you were wondering :) )

 

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

That is a great pity- when we transited the  rivers and canals of your beautiful country it was one of the most enjoyable boating experiences I have had. You should go and give it a try someday. 

The "permis fluvial" is just a test with multiple choice answers and a bit of boat handling. I won't need the RYA if I want to pass it one day. 

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Its in the mail mate. You owe me lunch- wait is this a PM? :)

All I've seen is your subscription to Penny Wong's digest. I'll check tomorrow. 

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6 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The "permis fluvial" is just a test with multiple choice answers and a bit of boat handling. I won't need the RYA if I want to pass it one day. 

No you wont- it can be done on-line in fact. I never mentioned the RYA in respect to this- I was simply pointing out that you were wrong when you claimed that you French don't require any certificates. You do for inland water ways. You may also not know that there are not any requirements at all for recreational boating in the UK either. None what so ever.

one of the RYA cornerstone beliefs is 'education not legislation'. In fact an RYA study a few years ago showed that counties with compulsory marine licensing have a higher percentage of fatalities than those that don't. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, SCANAS said:

All I've seen is your subscription to Penny Wong's digest. I'll check tomorrow. 

Not that there is anything wrong with Wong.

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29 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

No you wont- it can be done on-line in fact. I never mentioned the RYA in respect to this- I was simply pointing out that you were wrong when you claimed that you French don't require any certificates. You do for inland water ways. You may also not know that there are not any requirements at all for recreational boating in the UK either. None what so ever.

one of the RYA cornerstone beliefs is 'education not legislation'. In fact an RYA study a few years ago showed that counties with compulsory marine licensing have a higher percentage of fatalities than those that don't. 

 

 

Now you got me interested. How can you do it online?

The upstream bit of the estuary I am based is considered "fluvial" and I may have operated illegally! They are a pain with their regulations, the licences are useless you just need to learn the book and people then rent a RIB with a stupidly big engine. My dad is a volunteer at the local lifeboat and the stupidity of some of those they rescue is amazing even if they have all the licences.

I know about the UK, I lived there a decade.  There  was a yearly cruise organised on boats rented on the south coast in a company I was working for with no need for certificates, I've also rented a narrow boat once. 

Those Brits can be rather sensible. 

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4 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

I also know guys with an extensive body of knowledge who exhibit no skill.  Kind of works both ways.

Have we been to sea on the same ship, then?

FKT

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15 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Have we been to sea on the same ship, then?

FKT

Welcome to my world. I get to sail with these types as part of my job description. 

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47 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Welcome to my world. I get to sail with these types as part of my job description. 

If we ever go sailing on the same vessel you'll do it again, too. What are you like on sailing junk schooners?

I'm probably one of the few people here who got paid to ram a 6500 tonne ship into solid objects though :-) Wasn't even in my job description, I did it for fun. The cook wasn't amused. Nor was the leopard seal.

You may have assessed one of my ex-staff for his Yachtmaster a few years ago. Not sure where he is these days - must email him & tell him it's safe to come & visit again now my toy boat wiring is complete.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

If we ever go sailing on the same vessel you'll do it again, too. What are you like on sailing junk schooners?

I'm probably one of the few people here who got paid to ram a 6500 tonne ship into solid objects though :-) Wasn't even in my job description, I did it for fun. The cook wasn't amused. Nor was the leopard seal.

You may have assessed one of my ex-staff for his Yachtmaster a few years ago. Not sure where he is these days - must email him & tell him it's safe to come & visit again now my toy boat wiring is complete.

FKT

You would qualify as a boat tester for BS....

i guess it was an icebreaker?

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Just now, olaf hart said:

You would qualify as a boat tester for BS....

i guess it was an icebreaker?

Yeah. Lotta fun doing a bank shot off of the side of an ice lead to change course. Pays to remember that there's an awful lot of ship behind the bridge though. Cooks get grumpy when you hit things too hard while they're getting breakfast.

There's a reason I decided to build a steel boat. Bet I could turn LB's hair white - assuming he still has any. Probably a good thing I'll never need any certification of competence in boat handling though.

FKT

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Cross-threaded from Ocean Racing Anarchy in the hope Ozee sees this...as I think she tried this back in January.

Has anyone done the Navathome online RYA(-ish?) courses? LB 15, any insights? I like the concept to study at my convenience, but not having heard first hand I've been hesitant to click. 

 

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And I obviously get this is only theory! And it trying to replace the watery aspects.

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Getting better longitudes, but about 35 lat's from my digs. There's RYA schools in the neighbourhood, but work/life right now would better suit the online approach for the theory... but no idea if they're worth the nibble.

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15 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Ever heard of the CEVNI rules pano? 

You need that to go ditch crawling through the French countryside on a hire boat.

 from https://www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/competence/   especially last line is of interest

ICC plus CEVNI

If as a visitor you are planning to use the French canals and rivers, the boat’s skipper must have an ICC certificate as endorsed for Inland Waters (having also passed the CEVNI exam).

Inland waterway regulations come into effect once a vessel is upstream of the seaward limit of each estuary. The category of licence required is determined by the size of craft and the power of the engine.

Paradoxically, hire boat skippers (i.e the most inexperienced) need no qualifications at all (merely some very limited tuition) and this is another reason why hire boats should be treated with caution by more seasoned boaters, especially those piloting their own craft.

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9 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

HFC, 

they do the online theory.

At only $2 hundy more than navathome? 

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10 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

Cross-threaded from Ocean Racing Anarchy in the hope Ozee sees this...as I think she tried this back in January.

Has anyone done the Navathome online RYA(-ish?) courses? LB 15, any insights? I like the concept to study at my convenience, but not having heard first hand I've been hesitant to click. 

 

Navathome is excellent. Probably half of our students do their theory through them. I personally believe the classroom is the best  place to learn this subject but not many people can take 5 - 6 days off to sit in a classroom these days and I get that. We stopped doing night classes about 10 years ago and only run 5 day intensive classroom course about 6 times a year now. Weird that in this age of technology we have all never been so time poor. For those I recommend navathome . (And full disclosure we are an agent for them) Don offers a easy to follow online course with great support. So yeah if the local schools classroom courses don't work for you go for it. 

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah. Lotta fun doing a bank shot off of the side of an ice lead to change course. Pays to remember that there's an awful lot of ship behind the bridge though. Cooks get grumpy when you hit things too hard while they're getting breakfast.

There's a reason I decided to build a steel boat. Bet I could turn LB's hair white - assuming he still has any. Probably a good thing I'll never need any certification of competence in boat handling though.

FKT

When I drove tugs I will admit to enjoying belting into the customers but ice - man that would be fun. I am jealous. 

(And my hair has been white since birth) 

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@LB 15, how would you recommend a feller such as myself get started?  Is there a specific log book I should get to start logging my miles?  Does boat size matter for logged miles?  I'm doing a big race this weekend on a 30'r but I also race weekly on a 22'r and my personal boat is a 23'r.

Can you recommend any reading material?

I guess my main concern is that I'm learning too slowly.  When I'm on a boat I feel like I should know more and then maybe the theoretical will help accelerate or at least improve the retention of the practical experience.  I also don't want to learn any of these bad habits you speak of.

I should have started sailing when I was 10.  Hind sight....

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Thanks LB - appreciated. You're right , Tech lets me work globally, but so many time zones robs time. Days off are too precious for classrooms right now

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4 hours ago, Tempest said:

@LB 15, how would you recommend a feller such as myself get started?  Is there a specific log book I should get to start logging my miles?  Does boat size matter for logged miles?  I'm doing a big race this weekend on a 30'r but I also race weekly on a 22'r and my personal boat is a 23'r.

Can you recommend any reading material?

I guess my main concern is that I'm learning too slowly.  When I'm on a boat I feel like I should know more and then maybe the theoretical will help accelerate or at least improve the retention of the practical experience.  I also don't want to learn any of these bad habits you speak of.

I should have started sailing when I was 10.  Hind sight....

Francis Chitchester didn't take up sailing until his 50's mate! The RYA have a logbook but anything record will do. It sounds like you are already at or beyond 'competent crew' level so in the RYA scheme you are ready to do Day skipper. The essential navigation and seamanship course can be done online and covers a wide range of subjects. On the practical side once you have down the ENS course you are good to start on day skipper practical. If it is purely improving on the race course you are interested in then there are plenty of ways to get there but that is not really the purpose of the RYA cruising scheme. 

The Yachting Australia 'keel boat' courses are the kind of training deigned to make people better races, but mileage may differ depending on the instructor. They don't put anything like the time and resources into instructor training that we do but there are still plenty of good people involved.

The fact that you have your own boat(regardless of the size) is a big leg up. All experience counts but some of it needs to be on a bigger boat.You might want to do a day of own boat tuition where the instructor jumps on your boat for the day. This gives him/Her the chance to see where you are at and offer a training plan. Also gives you a chance to make sure you are happy with their teaching style. Sounds like you are on the right track though- sail with as many people as you can. Where about are you based?

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I liked night classes LB. You had a week to really cement it to memory before moving on. I did the week of YM/CM theory but it felt like a bit of a blur. 

Q. Bob has an oyster 66 & he wants to go bird watching at asshole island, he has depth & air draft issues & doesn't want to be there for sunset to avoid the Mosquitos. What day can bob go watch birds?

A. Bob needs a life

Fuck standard ports, tidal bell curves & interpolation! 

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

I liked night classes LB. You had a week to really cement it to memory before moving on. I did the week of YM/CM theory but it felt like a bit of a blur. 

Q. Bob has an oyster 66 & he wants to go bird watching at asshole island, he has depth & air draft issues & doesn't want to be there for sunset to avoid the Mosquitos. What day can bob go watch birds?

A. Bob needs a life

Fuck standard ports, tidal bell curves & interpolation! 

Take the dinghy. 

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On 15/09/2017 at 3:03 PM, Bryanjb said:

So, if we're going to get "coached" up where do we find the "bona fides" of the RYA instructor?  

Ask to see their qualifications? What do you mean?

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44 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Ask to see their qualifications? What do you mean?

Isn't that what scanners, colour laser printers & laminators are for?

FKT

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On 9/14/2017 at 7:07 PM, LB 15 said:

Francis Chitchester didn't take up sailing until his 50's mate! The RYA have a logbook but anything record will do. It sounds like you are already at or beyond 'competent crew' level so in the RYA scheme you are ready to do Day skipper. The essential navigation and seamanship course can be done online and covers a wide range of subjects. On the practical side once you have down the ENS course you are good to start on day skipper practical. If it is purely improving on the race course you are interested in then there are plenty of ways to get there but that is not really the purpose of the RYA cruising scheme. 

The Yachting Australia 'keel boat' courses are the kind of training deigned to make people better races, but mileage may differ depending on the instructor. They don't put anything like the time and resources into instructor training that we do but there are still plenty of good people involved.

The fact that you have your own boat(regardless of the size) is a big leg up. All experience counts but some of it needs to be on a bigger boat.You might want to do a day of own boat tuition where the instructor jumps on your boat for the day. This gives him/Her the chance to see where you are at and offer a training plan. Also gives you a chance to make sure you are happy with their teaching style. Sounds like you are on the right track though- sail with as many people as you can. Where about are you based?

This is the first I've heard of Francis Chitchester but that makes a guy feel better for sure.

OK, so I'm guessing my log book for sailing experience would be exactly the same as the log any skipper keeps of his voyages, is that correct?  So basically it sounds like it's all self reported.

Yes, I'd say I'm already competent crew or at least very close to that.

Well my goal is to own a 40-50 boat and be cruising before I'm 40 so the RYA cruising course matter is definitely what I'm after.  Racing is fun but it's more so a means to acquire a lot of boat handling experience as quickly as possible.  I'm on a lake though so I'm not getting any tidal or open water experience.

Having an instructor on my boat for a day is a good idea.  I have a friend here in town who is a very good sailor and I've been trying to get him out for a day but he's always either working or racing.  Next spring I'll probably be able to get him out so that will be a good start.  It doesn't look like there are any RYA instructors around here.  I'm in British Columbia, Canada so I may be SOL unless I'm willing to travel.

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Wow, you really are in the sticks. That's past Nebraska even.

Shit son, the rest of the universe revolves around my house! :P

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If you are in Vancouver get a copy of 48 North Magazine or find it online.  There are a couple ads for USCG captains license training culminating in the exam for the license.   Dont know if you need to be a US citizen or not.  An outfit offered the first nite free and I took em up.  The instructor seemed very qualified and competent.  I did not take the class in the end as I just couldnt devote the time, (I forget exactly the time requirement but it was something like one or 2 nites a week for a month or two)

Re Euro canal licenses.  Netherlands require nothing.  France requires CEVNI but many ancedotes online about US citizens cruising them for years without a license - Google Latitude 38 magazine + CEVNI to get the publishers personal experience with this.

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I meant to add that it seemed that there were a bunch of options for locations and time commitments to take the USGC classes in the 48 North ads.  I seem to recall one location was surprising far north of Seattle so maybe not so bad a drive from SW BC if that is a possibility. 

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