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Just Another High School Shooting

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11 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Two big things jump out of that article: 1) The kid had the combo to the gun safe - big no-no, IMHO.   2) The kid was bullied, ID'd as suicidal - how did the school/parents react?  What did they do to intervene?   

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9 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Registration does not equal confiscation.  I just don't see that happening.

Either way, I just don't see the crazies/criminals registering their weapons. Let's go directly at the actual problem for a change. With 330 million, there will always be some crazies. But we could take out the gangs. Let's do that first. That would be a good start at actual homeland security.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
11 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Two big things jump out of that article: 1) The kid had the combo to the gun safe - big no-no, IMHO.   2) The kid was bullied, ID'd as suicidal - how did the school/parents react?  What did they do to intervene?   

No no no.  Those contributors are irrelevant to the narrative that if there were no guns in the US, there would by definition be no violence.  Everybody would sing kumbaya and have a big old fashioned LOVE IN.

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9 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 

 

Spot on Specious - I can absolutely agree with this sentiment.  It begs the question, then - how do we change that attitude?  Why isn't that question the focus of the discussion? 

 

It certainly  can be, but why does everything else need to be tried before we register the guns?  It can be done simultaneously.

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:
On 9/13/2017 at 4:40 PM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

It's interesting to note not one mention of concern for the people impacted by this needless tragedy, ya bunch of callous cunts.  

 

Ahem. 

My response continues to be take it to GA.

Preferably in a new thread, not the one honestly entitled "Gun Control" which is about this shooting.

But if we're going to express concern for the victims of gun violence, we should really focus on suicides, not rare incidents like the topic one.

Whether it's common suicides or rare, convenient shootings, I suspect we all agree that it's generally bad when people get shot or shoot themselves. We feel sorry for those affected. But I don't see how that concern shared by all is political. Except, of course, to exploit convenient shootings to push what the GA thread honestly said it was pushing.

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47 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What part of the phrase "combined with" did you not understand???

Simply open carrying and minding your own business is not brandishing. 

whoosh. Not so hot on reading either I guess.

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54 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:
1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Brandishing and walking around with a weapon are very different things.

In fact, you are wrong. Not that this is a surprise.

I was discussing the historical situation, where having a visible weapon was most definitely brandishing.

Not always. Just as we see today in some places (New Jersey has been noted in this thread but there are others), there have always been $pecial people who have had government permission to walk around with weapons.

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1 hour ago, Spatial Ed said:

It certainly  can be, but why does everything else need to be tried before we register the guns?  It can be done simultaneously.

You're right - it could be done simultaneously, but, I question the efficacy of additional gun registration having any impact on the problem we're trying to address.  You do realize that if you buy a gun nowadays at a store, that the transaction is logged?  The last two .22s I bought - WalMart captured the serial #s, and included that information on the record of the sale, after the background check went thru.   How is that record going to be useful in addressing this issue? 

As you proffered - why AREN'T we talking about how to effect those attitude adjustments now, especially given that we all agree that THAT is something that's necessary?  

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

No no no.  Those contributors are irrelevant to the narrative that if there were no guns in the US, there would by definition be no violence.  Everybody would sing kumbaya and have a big old fashioned LOVE IN.

What an interesting fantasy land you choose live in. No-one is arguing that "no guns = no violence". You beat the tar out of that strawman, Princess. Give it a sound thrashing, let the thumping distract you from your unwholesome urges a little. Then, when you've finished with your therapy, get back to us in the real world pointing to the inarguable fact that first world countries with less guns have less homicide, even when they have the same level of violent crime.

You take care now and try not to break a nail thumping the shit out of this guy.

strawman.jpg

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41 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You're right - it could be done simultaneously, but, I question the efficacy of additional gun registration having any impact on the problem we're trying to address.  You do realize that if you buy a gun nowadays at a store, that the transaction is logged?  The last two .22s I bought - WalMart captured the serial #s, and included that information on the record of the sale, after the background check went thru.   How is that record going to be useful in addressing this issue? 

As you proffered - why AREN'T we talking about how to effect those attitude adjustments now, especially given that we all agree that THAT is something that's necessary?  

Does the government know what guns you own?  Do you have to record to the government the transfer of those guns?  Can the government trace a gun back to you?

That is what registration is.

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2 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

It certainly  can be, but why does everything else need to be tried before we register the guns?  It can be done simultaneously.

How would registration have prevented this?

 

Canada and New Zealand abolished gun registration because it cannot prevent or solve gun crimes, how would your version of registration differ from what Canada and new Zealand abolished?

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Two big things jump out of that article: 1) The kid had the combo to the gun safe - big no-no, IMHO.   2) The kid was bullied, ID'd as suicidal - how did the school/parents react?  What did they do to intervene?   

Daddy and mommy should be on the hook for this.  See my strict liability explanation.  No excuse.  

There may well be liability on the school's part.  You can bet your ass that the school district will be a defendant in this, and that they will pay a fortune that will not bring back the dead child.  

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18 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Does the government know what guns you own?  Do you have to record to the government the transfer of those guns?  Can the government trace a gun back to you?

That is what registration is.

I notice that you chose not to address the other question about addressing attitude changes now - why is that? 

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19 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Does the government know what guns you own?  Do you have to record to the government the transfer of those guns?  Can the government trace a gun back to you?

That is what registration is.

Why have the government do it?  After an incident like this, go to the manufacturer for proof that the gun was properly sold, and find out to whom.  Follow down the chain until you find the person without record of selling it with a sufficient background check.  In this case, it would be the owner, who would then have to show that it was properly secured.  it wasn't.  He is culpable.  

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Daddy and mommy should be on the hook for this.  See my strict liability explanation.  No excuse.  

There may well be liability on the school's part.  You can bet your ass that the school district will be a defendant in this, and that they will pay a fortune that will not bring back the dead child.  

Given that the kid had the combo to the safe?  Yeah - I'd agree.   While your point is valid w/r/t liability and not bringing back the dead kid, my point was more about an immediate change in how the collective "we" (parents/schools) decide to deal with situations of bullying/suicidal depression.  

Someone who's decided that they are better off dead isn't really going to have much compassion for the ones he plans to leave behind - and I'd think that that degree of desperation warrants immediate intervention, and I'm wondering what happened w/r/t that in this instance. 

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6 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Daddy and mommy should be on the hook for this.  See my strict liability explanation.  No excuse.  

Perhaps we need to license people to have kids.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Daddy and mommy should be on the hook for this.  See my strict liability explanation.  No excuse.  

There may well be liability on the school's part.  You can bet your ass that the school district will be a defendant in this, and that they will pay a fortune that will not bring back the dead child.  

Without a chain of custody of the gun and an expectation of being held liable for the weapon, you cannot hold the parents responsible.

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7 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I notice that you chose not to address the other question about addressing attitude changes now - why is that? 

Attitudes towards loose guns will change with registration.

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2 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Without a chain of custody of the gun and an expectation of being held liable for the weapon, you cannot hold the parents responsible.

Do we have a chain of custody with this incident and Sandy Hook? 

 

Was this achieved without registration?

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3 minutes ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Do we have a chain of custody with this incident and Sandy Hook? 

 

Was this achieved without registration?

No, because we don't have gun registration silly.

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12 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

No, because we don't have gun registration silly.

BS. Buying a weapon from a licensed seller provides a record that I'd bet my firstborn goes into a fed database. 

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Brandishing and walking around with a weapon are very different things.

Not to the founding fathers, you poser. This is at the heart of the history in Heller. It was not laid out honestly to Scalia.

Ample court judgements in Colonial days state that the mere presence of a weapon was disturbing to the Kindome. Intent to use a weapon, or hiding the weapon, raised the infraction from misdemeanor to felony. 

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Just now, jocal505 said:

Not to the founding fathers, you poser. This is at the heart of the history in Heller. It was not laid out honestly to Scalia.

Ample court judgements in Colonial days state that the mere presence of a weapon was disturbing to the Kindome. Intent to use a weapon, or hiding the weapon, raised the infraction from misdemeanor to felony. 

The definition of Brandishing in the US Statute (the only one that matters for this discussion) includes "menacing", and the mere existence of a firearm does not satisfy the legal definition "menacing".  Raising it to point at an individual?  That's menacing.  You know that, but will continue to obfuscate in your myopic pursuit of firearms eradication.  

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18 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

BS. Buying a weapon from a licensed seller provides a record that I'd bet my firstborn goes into a fed database. 

According to our local gun slingers, those records are kept in paper form at the sellers.  They are not forwarded to the feds.

Registration should be all encompassing, cradle to grave, and cover all transfers and all weapons.  And electronic.

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What I find interesting is that when there is a case of Constitutional infringements that they care about, their panties are waded up so tight they can't breathe.  Like this for example:

Its important to follow the Constitution..... sometimes.

Motel 6 didn't infringe the constitution. That's been discussed. That doesn't mean that potential customers may decide to avoid the Vichy French Hotel Chain.  Again, no constitutional issue there, either. 

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled(after every school shooting, ad infinitum cause they just keep happening) gunz shitfight.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

Motel 6 didn't infringe the constitution. That's been discussed. That doesn't mean that potential customers may decide to avoid the Vichy French Hotel Chain.  Again, no constitutional issue there, either. 

 

There may be a constitutional issue here.  Did the police request the intel or was it provided without request?  The police asking for the information without a warrant is unconstitutional. 

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19 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The definition of Brandishing in the US Statute (the only one that matters for this discussion) includes "menacing", and the mere existence of a firearm does not satisfy the legal definition "menacing".  Raising it to point at an individual?  That's menacing.  You know that, but will continue to obfuscate in your myopic pursuit of firearms eradication.  

I'd rather they carriers OC than CC.

I know I'm in the minority on this.

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2 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

According to our local gun slingers, those records are kept in paper form at the sellers.  They are not forwarded to the feds.

Registration should be all encompassing, cradle to grave, and cover all transfers and all weapons.  And electronic.

We wish. My guess is when a sale is made at an electronic register, a couple of electrons indicating a weapons sale combine with the "private" info and go into a dark hole of server farmland and is sorted several ways, certainly by state, county, town ... 

I've always hunched the jackbooted thugs would be directed from the left side of the aisle.

 

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Just now, Spatial Ed said:

There may be a constitutional issue here.  Did the police request the intel or was it provided without request?  The police asking for the information without a warrant is unconstitutional. 

true, although I interpreted it as an overly patriotic hotel guy.....

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I'd rather they carriers OC than CC.

I know I'm in the minority on this.

OC is a deterrent.  CC is not.  And CC is less sporting.

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9 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

There may be a constitutional issue here.  Did the police request the intel or was it provided without request?  The police asking for the information without a warrant is unconstitutional. 

Cite, please? Please note that there is a distinct legal difference between asking for something and the taking of that thing. 

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28 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

According to our local gun slingers, those records are kept in paper form at the sellers.  They are not forwarded to the feds.

Registration should be all encompassing, cradle to grave, and cover all transfers and all weapons.  And electronic.

The records are supposed to be kept by the sellers and not stolen by the Feds but that isn't always what happens.

Even the Canadians couldn't stick with something less ambitious than what you're asking for. And they're considerably less Uncooperative. 

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Cite, please? Please note that there is a distinct legal difference between asking for something and the taking of that thing. 

If the cops requested the list from Motel 6 and the night clerk denied the request citing no warrant, would that be constitutional issue?

Why would the cops request something they didn't have a constitutional right to?

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1 minute ago, Spatial Ed said:

If the cops requested the list from Motel 6 and the night clerk denied the request citing no warrant, would that be constitutional issue?

Why would the cops request something they didn't have a constitutional right to?

To the 1st - if they took it from the night clerk after being refused - damn skippy - clear violation of the 4th.  If they asked and the night clerk gave it to 'em?  No issue, as far as I know.  The issue arises not from the asking, but, from taking without either a warrant or permission. 

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4 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:
13 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Registration does not equal confiscation.  I just don't see that happening.

So you think that Billy's family would break the law and not give up his scary Mini-14 if he died today? Why?

I'm still wondering about this one, Ed.

What's your bet? Will Billy's family break the law or will his registration result in confiscation?

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1 minute ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I'm still wondering about this one, Ed.

What's your bet? Will Billy's family break the law or will his registration result in confiscation?

Far as I can tell from your hypothetical, Billy would no longer have use of his Mini-14.  no issue here.

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3 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

To the 1st - if they took it from the night clerk after being refused - damn skippy - clear violation of the 4th.  If they asked and the night clerk gave it to 'em?  No issue, as far as I know.  The issue arises not from the asking, but, from taking without either a warrant or permission. 

Who's 4th rights have been violated?  The night clerk or the ones on the list?  The method of acquiring the list without a warrant doesn't matter.

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1 hour ago, Spatial Ed said:

Without a chain of custody of the gun and an expectation of being held liable for the weapon, you cannot hold the parents responsible.

Yeah, if daddy gave the combo to the gun safe to little Jr. Shootemup, he's on the hook.  

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Just now, Sol Rosenberg said:

Yeah, if daddy gave the combo to the gun safe to little Jr. Shootemup, he's on the hook.  

In our gun society, not giving your family the right to defend themselves against home invaders would be considered irresponsible.

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2 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

In our gun society, not giving your family the right to defend themselves against home invaders would be considered irresponsible.

Giving the combo to a minor would be bad enough, let alone one with known bullying and suicide issues.  

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2 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Giving the combo to a minor would be bad enough, let alone one with known bullying and suicide issues.  

According to our local gunslingers, guns are the perfect solution to bullying and suicide (self murder).

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7 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Who's 4th rights have been violated?  The night clerk or the ones on the list?  The method of acquiring the list without a warrant doesn't matter.

The hotel registry is the hotel's property, so in this case, it would be the hotel owner's rights that had been violated.   Protections from illegal search and seizure are outlined in the 4th. Any evidence obtained by an illegal seizure would be tossed, and this would have impact to any action brought against hotel guests as a result of the illegal seizure. 

Can you provide any statute or decision that supports that premise? 

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The definition of Brandishing in the US Statute (the only one that matters for this discussion) includes "menacing", and the mere existence of a firearm does not satisfy the legal definition "menacing".  Raising it to point at an individual?  That's menacing.  You know that, but will continue to obfuscate in your myopic pursuit of firearms eradication.  

My discussion (and your position) involves the gun rights presented in Heller. According to the three CATO attorneys, they are based on English precedent. You need to defend English precedent in a welcome, polite conversation. 

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7 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The hotel registry is the hotel's property, so in this case, it would be the hotel owner's rights that had been violated.   Protections from illegal search and seizure are outlined in the 4th. Any evidence obtained by an illegal seizure would be tossed, and this would have impact to any action brought against hotel guests as a result of the illegal seizure. 

Can you provide any statute or decision that supports that premise? 

So in your mind, the police illegally gathering information is only a 4th amendment violation of the keeper of that information and not the target of that information?  Wow.

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The definition of Brandishing in the US Statute (the only one that matters for this discussion) includes "menacing", and the mere existence of a firearm does not satisfy the legal definition "menacing".  Raising it to point at an individual?  That's menacing.  You know that, but will continue to obfuscate in your myopic pursuit of firearms eradication.  

The discussion of constitutional  gun "rights" now rests pivotally with Heller. Heller's CATO scholars insist that our self defense behavior and law came from England. In this discussion you need to defend and explain the laws in play during Colonial times, and brandishing a weapon was a felony. Displaying an open weapon was a misdemeanor. As stated repeatedly, intent or concealment became a felony.

Quote

(p1804) Most of the blame, however, can be attributed to Malcolm brushing aside the Statute of Northampton as insignificant with little, if any, research on the topic. In 1980, for example, Malcolm virtually dismissed an entire series of weapon statutes, and as a result mischaracterized the Statute as prohibiting the “brandish[ing of] a firearm so as to terrify others,”418 when the Statute actually prohibited the act of carrying arms in public.

Wherever the fault lies for Malcolm’s historical omission and mischaracterization, we know for certain that the Statute of Northampton was strictly enforced as a prohibition on going armed in public.422 It was a misdemeanor resulting in forfeiture of arms and up to thirty days imprisonment.423 There was no requirement that the accused have a specific intent to terrify the public or cause harm.424

Fordham Urban Law Journal, Vol. 39, pg 1727, 2012

Gun "rights" violations were not listed in the Declaration of Independence. Why not?

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8 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

So in your mind, the police illegally gathering information is only a 4th amendment violation of the keeper of that information and not the target of that information?  Wow.

Gawdamn but you can twist and shout!    You asked a question, I gave you an answer, which as expected you tried and failed to twist into something that wasn't said.  

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2 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

How would registration have prevented this?

I've asked Specious that question several times now.  He just ignores it because he know's it can't "Prevent" murders.

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2 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Daddy and mommy should be on the hook for this.  See my strict liability explanation.  No excuse.  

 

Yep.  100% agree.  Start locking some parents up for their kid getting a gun and killing someone either accidentally or on purpose and make an example out of them.  It will be a wake up call for many to get their shit together and either secure their guns or get them out of the house.

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I've asked Specious that question several times now.  He just ignores it because he know's it can't "Prevent" murders.

I've already responded.  Registration will change Americans attitudes to loose guns.

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep.  100% agree.  Start locking some parents up for their kid getting a gun and killing someone either accidentally or on purpose and make an example out of them.  It will be a wake up call for many to get their shit together and either secure their guns or get them out of the house.

Without registration, this is not possible.

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8 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I've asked Specious that question several times now.  He just ignores it because he know's it can't "Prevent" murders.

Straw man. Hi Jeffie Poo. Registration helps to solve crimes. Nobody claimed they prevent murders.

Heller II loved registration. Why do you hate Heller II?

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep.  100% agree.  Start locking some parents up for their kid getting a gun and killing someone either accidentally or on purpose and make an example out of them.  It will be a wake up call for many to get their shit together and either secure their guns or get them out of the house.

Do that a few times, and people start taking better care to prevent stuff like this.  Registration?  No need to get the government involved in that, at least on the front end.  After a gun is used in a murder, go directly to the manufacturer.  If they cannot produce records of the sale to a purchaser (which wholesalers will always be able to show), they are on the hook too, otherwise, proceed down the chain of ownership/custody, until you reach the person who sold/gave/didn't secure or otherwise allowed it into the wrong hands.  They go on the hook too.  Go back to square one and start over; they lose everything, but end up with more than the victim, i.e. another chance.  

The fix comes not from taking away rights, but from requiring responsibility.  

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4 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Without registration, this is not possible.

I think it is, if we let the court system handle it, and make it a strict liability issue.  See prior post.  

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7 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep.  100% agree.  Start locking some parents up for their kid getting a gun and killing someone either accidentally or on purpose and make an example out of them.  It will be a wake up call for many to get their shit together and either secure their guns or get them out of the house.

Daddy and Jr can share a cell

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7 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

I've already responded.  Registration will change Americans attitudes to loose guns.

Maybe, maybe not.  You stated that registration would have prevented THIS crime.  That's a lie.  As evadent.

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7 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

The discussion of constitutionsal "rights" now rests with Heller. Heller insists that our self defense behavior and law came from England. In this discussion you need to defend and explain the laws in play during Colonial times, and brandishing a weapon was a felony.

Gun "rights" violations were not listed in the Declaration of Independence. Why not?

Geez Louise. That's the dumbest comment yet. We are a nation of laws and guns. Laws change occasionally. 

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If you want to prevent an activity, you need to alter the way people perceive the consequences of their actions.

To prevent drunk driving, MADD pushed a campaign to increase the consequences of the act.  Attitudes changed.

To prevent these shootings, a similar effort would be needed.  Registration would put the public on notice that weapons can be traced.  Liability would follow.  Attitudes to securing your weapons would change.  Parents would be very careful not to allow their children unsupervised access to them.  This alone would prevent many of this cases.

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Maybe, maybe not.  You stated that registration would have prevented THIS crime.  That's a lie.  As evadent.

Not true, see previous post.

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Just now, Shootist Jeff said:

I've asked Specious that question several times now.  He just ignores it because he know's it can't "Prevent" murders.

I can follow their logic as to how registration might help - but, their logic ignores that irrational people (ie the ones who'd do something like this in the first place) aren't going to abide by conventional logic.   


<soapbox_mode>  My biggest issue with the liberal approach to most things is that the approach is centered on changing everything EXCEPT the people who's behaviors are the problem.  Specious provides a perfect example in this thread - he stated ( and I agree emphatically) that attitudes about guns need to change.  Yet - what does he completely ignore?  Discussing anything to do with what changes are warranted, and how do we begin to effect those changes.  What does he continue to harp upon?  The behaviors of everyone EXCEPT the people inflicting violence.  

Ya know what?  I can actually support WHY Specious is clamoring for registration, but, I don't agree that a registration scheme will create what he seeks, and worry that it will be misused as a first step towards outlawing private firearms ownership and confiscation.  The bigger question is why do so many want to ignore the real problem:  The undesirable behaviors and the social and systemic causes of those behaviors?

</soapbox_mode> 

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Lawbreakers will continue to break laws.  But without the laws, we can't prosecute them.  So draw the line in the sand and watch who crosses it.

Sure, a segment of the population will not register their guns and continue to be irresponsible.  When we do find them, we can then process them.  

In time, just like drunk driving laws, the vast majority of the public will support them and realize they make us all safer.  Who would even think of rolling back DUI laws now?

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28 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Geez Louise. That's the dumbest comment yet.

Not dumb. The Brits ran several operations to collect powder. They broke the locks off the guns they found. They disarmed Boston coming and going, staying or leaving. If individual gun rights existed, the editorials, pamphleteers, and unccoperatives would speak out. They didn't.

I repeat. Gun "rights" violations are not among the 27 grievances in the Declaration. Not dumb, but very significant.

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We are a nation of laws and guns. Laws change occasionally. 

The law "which changed" was Heller in 2008. It's reasoning was based on alternate facts...then was extended to MacDonald with other stinky history.  

LAW REVIEWS VS HISTORIANS   21 professional historians united and complained in a brief about Heller. Thirty four professional historians of a different era complained about MacDonald. Both briefs have landed before Wrenn/Grace as we speak. The full Ninth Circuit will discuss this case, and TR feels the recent shall issue victory will not survive there. I agree. It's not likely that the CC issue will see the SC via Wrenn.

This history stuff is about the basics of self defense law as it applies to the Second, in two timeframes. Heller's legitimacy now  depends on the FF timeframe. Time for the history buffs of the SA Gun Club to step forward. This is fun.

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35 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

If you want to prevent an activity, you need to alter the way people perceive the consequences of their actions.

To prevent drunk driving, MADD pushed a campaign to increase the consequences of the act.  Attitudes changed.

To prevent these shootings, a similar effort would be needed.  Registration would put the public on notice that weapons can be traced.  Liability would follow.  Attitudes to securing your weapons would change.  Parents would be very careful not to allow their children unsupervised access to them.  This alone would prevent many of this cases.

Go MADD. The change of attitudes thing is central.

Attitudes follow perceptions. I notice that in the gun issue, popular perceptions are often based on steady misrepresentations. 

 

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58 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Not dumb. The Brits ran several operations to collect powder. They broke the locks off the guns they found. They disarmed Boston coming and going, staying or leaving. If individual gun rights existed, the editorials, pamphleteers, and unccoperatives would speak out. They didn't.

I repeat. Gun "rights" violations are not among the 27 grievances in the Declaration. Not dumb, but very significant.

The law "which changed" was Heller in 2008. It's reasoning was based on alternate facts...then was extended to MacDonald with other stinky history.  

LAW REVIEWS VS HISTORIANS   21 professional historians united and complained in a brief about Heller. Thirty four professional historians of a different era complained about MacDonald. Both briefs have landed before Wrenn/Grace as we speak. The full Ninth Circuit will discuss this case, and TR feels the recent shall issue victory will not survive there. I agree. It's not likely that the CC issue will see the SC via Wrenn.

This history stuff is about the basics of self defense law as it applies to the Second, in two timeframes. Heller's legitimacy now  depends on the FF timeframe. Time for the history buffs of the SA Gun Club to step forward. This is fun.

I do regret calling that dumb. I'd like all of us to become more civil regardless of the discussion.

I doubt,tho, that many care about the history except h buffs. Im a recovering legal "mind" meself. My thought is that if the Supremes voted to ban guns today, none of us holding non-registered weapons would turn them in. I'm not talking about preppers or milita guys but the actual fabric of this great nation: guys and gals like me. That said, I'd have no issue with Sol' s strict liability argument. Treat this issue casually, fuck you and yer crazy kid.

Driving drunk the second time? I'll shoot ya meself. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 Raising it to point at an individual?  That's menacing.  You know that, but will continue to obfuscate in your myopic pursuit of firearms eradication.  

Guy, what's up with this bit again?

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myopic pursuit of firearms eradication. STRAW MAN ALERT

We went through this recently, and I listed half a dozen priorities which pointedly avoid sport confiscation. Our discussion was whether the FF's had a right to open carry. The answer is no The Statute of Northampton was in plan, per Scalia's Blackstone. NO WEAPONS in cities and markets 1776-1791 and after.

 

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3 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Guy, what's up with this bit again?

We went through this recently, and I listed half a dozen priorities which pointedly avoid sport confiscation. Our discussion was whether the FF's had a right to open carry. The answer is no The Statute of Northampton was in plan, per Scalia's Blackstone. NO WEAPONS in cities and markets 1776-1791 and after.

 

You and many others have stated on numerous occasions, here and on the public stage, that eradication of private firearms is your ultimate objective.  Your attempts to equate how the Crown treated its subjects to the current state of precedent in a country who's citizens are not subjects is to me nothing more than an interesting foray into how others did things.   You'll note also that the crown taxed its subjects without permitting those subjects a voice via vote, and that we took (at least back then) an opposite approach to that facet of crown law, too. 

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17 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You and many others have stated on numerous occasions, here and on the public stage, that eradication of private firearms is your ultimate objective.  

You can't cite that. And it's not my "objective." My objective it to debunk gun disinformation on our boards. It's going okay.

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Your attempts to equate how the Crown treated its subjects to the current state of precedent in a country who's citizens are not subjects is to me nothing more than an interesting foray into how others did things.  

Yes, it's interesting. But the emphasis on this history is not mine, mate. I am just debunking away. The Guy claims and the Scalia claims about "the constitution" led me to some great reading, and an interesting pack of lies. Your gun rights now rest upon them. LMFAO.

And get the timeframes right. To claim Bill of Rights protection, and Second Amendment intent, we will be discussing the laws and beliefs of the FF era. When discussing the aborted history within MacDonald, we'll be discussing the post-civil war intents and belief systems. Scalia and Alito were selectively misguided when they did the same.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

That misdemeanor charge will not put him in jail next to his son even if they could get it to stick.  A fine and admonition.  All he has to say in his defense was I didn't give the kid the code and if  that bastard says I did, he's not only a killer, but a liar to boot.  Now, a statue that would charge accessory to murder to the owner of the gun would put some teeth in it.  Of course, we would need a chain of custody and ownership to do such a thing.  And if someone used your gun to kill someone, you'd be doing some explaining.  Hence the argument of tightening up loose guns.

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3 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

That misdemeanor charge will not put him in jail next to his son even if they could get it to stick.  A fine and admonition.  All he has to say in his defense was I didn't give the kid the code and if  that bastard says I did, he's not only a killer, but a liar to boot.  Now, a statue that would charge accessory to murder to the owner of the gun would put some teeth in it.  Of course, we would need a chain of custody and ownership to do such a thing.  And if someone used your gun to kill someone, you'd be doing some explaining.  Hence the argument of tightening up loose guns.

Agreed.  It would need legislative changes.  Florida's legislature has always been for sale to the highest bidder, so it won't be happening here.  

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4 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Daddy and mommy should be on the hook for this.  See my strict liability explanation.  No excuse.  

There may well be liability on the school's part.  You can bet your ass that the school district will be a defendant in this, and that they will pay a fortune that will not bring back the dead child.  

I interviewed a carpenter and he told me he was an ex- con,  said he killed his old lady, I asked if the bitch deseved it.

Has anyone thought that the dead kid might have deserved it?

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2 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

If you want to prevent an activity, you need to alter the way people perceive the consequences of their actions.

To prevent drunk driving, MADD pushed a campaign to increase the consequences of the act.  Attitudes changed.

To prevent these shootings, a similar effort would be needed.  Registration would put the public on notice that weapons can be traced.  Liability would follow.  Attitudes to securing your weapons would change.  Parents would be very careful not to allow their children unsupervised access to them.  This alone would prevent many of this cases.

I'm a big proponent of the MADD methodology.  I don't recall them advocating registration of sales of Jack Daniels, Colt 45 and Mad Dog 20/20.  Instead they changed attitudes by pushing for stronger penalties on violators. raising public awareness of the issues, and generally just shaming people into doing the right thing.  Had nothing to do with blaming the tools of the DUI issue - i.e. cars and booze.   It was about individual accountability and responsibility.  

Once again, an epic fail by the ed of speciousness.  

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2 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Go MADD. The change of attitudes thing is central.

Attitudes follow perceptions. I notice that in the gun issue, popular perceptions are often based on steady misrepresentations. 

 

Joke-al, it warms my heart that after all these years of me pushing you, that you are finally coming around to my MADD approach.  Will wonders never cease?  There is hope for you yet, so time to put your big boy pants on and join the revolution.  

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I can follow their logic as to how registration might help - but, their logic ignores that irrational people (ie the ones who'd do something like this in the first place) aren't going to abide by conventional logic.   


<soapbox_mode>  My biggest issue with the liberal approach to most things is that the approach is centered on changing everything EXCEPT the people who's behaviors are the problem.  Specious provides a perfect example in this thread - he stated ( and I agree emphatically) that attitudes about guns need to change.  Yet - what does he completely ignore?  Discussing anything to do with what changes are warranted, and how do we begin to effect those changes.  What does he continue to harp upon?  The behaviors of everyone EXCEPT the people inflicting violence.  

Ya know what?  I can actually support WHY Specious is clamoring for registration, but, I don't agree that a registration scheme will create what he seeks, and worry that it will be misused as a first step towards outlawing private firearms ownership and confiscation.  The bigger question is why do so many want to ignore the real problem:  The undesirable behaviors and the social and systemic causes of those behaviors?

</soapbox_mode> 

Your first YUGE mistake is in assuming that specious fred is actually interested in making a difference in the so-called gun murder problem.   He ignores the real problem deliberately because his goal is disarm the majority of citizens because he does not, in any way, agree that regular citizens need or deserve to be armed.  Had you paid attention to his schtick throughout the years, it would be evadent to you that this "concern" is all an act.  Its BULLSHIT is what it is.   IMO, he's giddy whenever there is a shooting so he can use it to advance his agenda.  He is actually "happy" when he reads in the news that people are shot.  In SE's darkest of hearts, he's GLAD that children are murdered so he can advance his specious agenda.  His faux concern is nothing but crocodile years.  I'm serious about this.

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Joke-al, it warms my heart that after all these years of me pushing you, that you are finally coming around to my MADD approach.  Will wonders never cease?  There is hope for you yet, so time to put your big boy pants on and join the revolution.  

 MADD and Shootist Jeff and Joe go into a bar...

************************

Some student accounts say the shooter and victim had been friends. Others relate a recent falling out. The perp wanted to make a statement about bullying. The newspaper account mentioned an AR-15 model. The last thing the victim said was something like "I knew you would shoot up the school...:

One clueless little fucker with bully issues and a gunsafe combo. And here we are. 

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31 minutes ago, Moderate said:

I interviewed a carpenter and he told me he was an ex- con,  said he killed his old lady, I asked if the bitch deseved it.

Has anyone thought that the dead kid might have deserved it?

Fuck off, cunt boi.

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Your first YUGE mistake is in assuming that specious fred is actually interested in making a difference in the so-called gun murder problem.   He ignores the real problem deliberately because his goal is disarm the majority of citizens because he does not, in any way, agree that regular citizens need or deserve to be armed.  Had you paid attention to his schtick throughout the years, it would be evadent to you that this "concern" is all an act.  Its BULLSHIT is what it is.   IMO, he's giddy whenever there is a shooting so he can use it to advance his agenda.  He is actually "happy" when he reads in the news that people are shot.  In SE's darkest of hearts, he's GLAD that children are murdered so he can advance his specious agenda.  His faux concern is nothing but crocodile years.  I'm serious about this.

Geez Jeff. You're like a cannibal on PA. Something I said must have torqued you for you to fabricate such stuff. 

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