• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
badlatitude

Motel 6 Notifies the Politburo/Gestapo/ ICE Every Morning So You Could Be Arrested

77 posts in this topic

What is Motel 6 thinking? run a business, but send your name, credit card, drivers license, and car plate to the authorities every morning so that you might be arrested? Not exactly good for business, especially now that a national boycott is going to make you reconsider. Is this patriotism taken too far? or should we be like Interpol and report everyone to a central location?

 

"Two Motel 6 locations in the Phoenix area are reportedly sending guest lists to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials on a daily basis. According to a report by the Phoenix New Times, this has resulted in at least 20 arrests at the two locations between February and August of this year. 

Though neither management at the locations nor Motel 6’s corporate office responded to questions about this practice, at least one employee was fairly forthcoming. “We send a report every morning to ICE — all the names of everybody that comes in,” a front-desk clerk told the paper. “Every morning at about 5 o’clock, we do the audit and we push a button and it sends it to ICE.” 

ICE was mum about the “investigative techniques” it uses, but Phoenix Police department spokesperson Jonathan Howard confirmed that “[o]n occasion and through informal contacts, various hotels and motels have shared their guest lists with officers.”

https://thinkprogress.org/motel-6-ice-deportation-29e7bc932b63/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

What is Motel 6 thinking? run a business, but send your name, credit card, drivers license, and car plate to the authorities every morning so that you might be arrested? Not exactly good for business, especially now that a national boycott is going to make you reconsider. Is this patriotism taken too far? or should we be like Interpol and report everyone to a central location?

 

"Two Motel 6 locations in the Phoenix area are reportedly sending guest lists to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials on a daily basis. According to a report by the Phoenix New Times, this has resulted in at least 20 arrests at the two locations between February and August of this year. 

Though neither management at the locations nor Motel 6’s corporate office responded to questions about this practice, at least one employee was fairly forthcoming. “We send a report every morning to ICE — all the names of everybody that comes in,” a front-desk clerk told the paper. “Every morning at about 5 o’clock, we do the audit and we push a button and it sends it to ICE.” 

ICE was mum about the “investigative techniques” it uses, but Phoenix Police department spokesperson Jonathan Howard confirmed that “[o]n occasion and through informal contacts, various hotels and motels have shared their guest lists with officers.”

https://thinkprogress.org/motel-6-ice-deportation-29e7bc932b63/

Wow.

What the hell happened to this country?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Raz'r said:

Wow.

What the hell happened to this country?

I'd like to know what other hotels and motels share this information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I'd like to know what other hotels and motels share this information.

Is it a national policy, or a local response to a request for cooperation with law enforcement to address a specific situation?   One's acceptable, one's not.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Is it a national policy, or a local response to a request for cooperation with law enforcement to address a specific situation?   One's acceptable, one's not.

How is it acceptable for a motel to every morning send a list of guests? For 180+ days?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Is it a national policy, or a local response to a request for cooperation with law enforcement to address a specific situation?   One's acceptable, one's not.

 

well, aren't they a franchise? probably some Patriotic owners...

 

(and yes, I know they are NOT patriotic..... in the historic sense of patriotic americanism....)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Is it a national policy, or a local response to a request for cooperation with law enforcement to address a specific situation?   One's acceptable, one's not.

 

I don't know, the Motel 6 arrangement was discovered by accident when an Immigration attorney wondered where ICE got the room number. For all we know, ICE is doing this wherever they can get a lead. I strongly suspect that there are no names like Rutherford, O'Donnell, or Johannsen, on Ice's motel reports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

well, aren't they a franchise? probably some Patriotic owners...

 

(and yes, I know they are NOT patriotic..... in the historic sense of patriotic americanism....)

The two Phoenix motels are corporate, although there are some franchises nationwide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

How is it acceptable for a motel to every morning send a list of guests? For 180+ days?

That would depend upon what the investigators thought was necessary and prudent, wouldn't it?  Unless of course, you suspect that the managers of these specific hotel locations just decided to start sending in their guest register, and exposing themselves to potential liability just for grins and giggles.   I know of single cases that took years to build/prepare - this particular situation might be an outrage, and it might not.  

 

3 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I don't know, the Motel 6 arrangement was discovered by accident when an Immigration attorney wondered where ICE got the room number. For all we know, ICE is doing this wherever they can get a lead. I strongly suspect that there are no names like Rutherford, O'Donnell, or Johannsen, on Ice's motel reports.

Are the hotel employees filtering the lists?  I think that more questions need to be asked before y'all get out the torches and pitchforks.  If those answers warrant?  Walmart likely won't sell out of garden implements and propane by then. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

That would depend upon what the investigators thought was necessary and prudent, wouldn't it?  Unless of course, you suspect that the managers of these specific hotel locations just decided to start sending in their guest register, and exposing themselves to potential liability just for grins and giggles.   I know of single cases that took years to build/prepare - this particular situation might be an outrage, and it might not.  

 

Are the hotel employees filtering the lists?  I think that more questions need to be asked before y'all get out the torches and pitchforks.  If those answers warrant?  Walmart likely won't sell out of garden implements and propane by then. 

I can't think of any condition that would make this okay. If ICE wants that information they should be going to Congress for a law, or at the minimum asking a judge for a warrant. Waking someone up at 5:00 am and asking if they could enter your room is bunk, would you allow that? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

I can't think of any condition that would make this okay. If ICE wants that information they should be going to Congress for a law, or at the minimum asking a judge for a warrant. Waking someone up at 5:00 am and asking if they could enter your room is bunk, would you allow that? 

You've never heard of a person or a business complying with a request for cooperation from law enforcement?   w/r/t the bolded part? That kind of thing happens every day, all over the country. In the US - you've got the right to refuse to acquiesce to that request without the LEO producing a warrant, but, nothing says they can't knock and ask.   It's the same as the cop asking if he can look in your car if he pulls you over.  You can say yes, or say no - get a warrant. BUT - what's that got to do w/the motel's actions? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You've never heard of a person or a business complying with a request for cooperation from law enforcement?   w/r/t the bolded part? That kind of thing happens every day, all over the country. In the US - you've got the right to refuse to acquiesce to that request without the LEO producing a warrant, but, nothing says they can't knock and ask.   It's the same as the cop asking if he can look in your car if he pulls you over.  You can say yes, or say no - get a warrant. BUT - what's that got to do w/the motel's actions? 

There are so many things wrong with your statement I hardly know where to start. First, my credit card numbers and other personal information are protected by the 4th Amendment to the Constitution as unlawful search and seizure. Second, most Immigrants are unaware that they are protected by our Constitution, but are likely to acquiesce when asked.You do not have to give permission for anyone to enter your motel room at any time and you do not have to give permission for your car to be searched.

The motel managers and the corporation that owns it has violated the 4th Amendment every time they produced a list without permission. What Motel 6 has done has created a lawsuit from every single person put on that list, and a national boycott that will force them to both apologize and change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I'd like to know what other hotels and motels share this information.

La Quinta would be my guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do they also share the names of politicians and senior government officials who are there for a secret rendezvous? If so then I'm ok with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, bhyde said:

La Quinta would be my guess.

I'm not familiar with them. The other thing that puzzles me is how did ICE differentiate Hispanic surnames? Jose Gonzales is pretty generic, did they wake Jose Gonzalez at 5:00 am to find he wasn't the one they were looking for?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Do they also share the names of politicians and senior government officials who are there for a secret rendezvous? If so then I'm ok with it.

LOL, I don't think ICE wants to pay the overtime a list that big would generate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 Unless of course, you suspect that the managers of these specific hotel locations just decided to start sending in their guest register, and exposing themselves to potential liability just for grins and giggles.  

That's what it sounds like, actually. See this story linked in the OP

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/motel-6-calling-ice-undocumented-guests-phoenix-immigration-lawyers-9683244

This isn't "building a case". This is guy checks into motel and gets arrested 6 hours later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

I don't know, the Motel 6 arrangement was discovered by accident when an Immigration attorney wondered where ICE got the room number. For all we know, ICE is doing this wherever they can get a lead. I strongly suspect that there are no names like Rutherford, O'Donnell, or Johannsen, on Ice's motel reports.

Well,  at least not on a Motel 6 list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm especially outraged if those busted were carrying illegal drugs and sporting some gang tats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

I'm especially outraged if those busted were carrying illegal drugs and sporting some gang tats.

So - I take it that you think it's fine for businesses to send their customer lists to the Feds for, i don't know, any reason whatsoever?

I can tell you the company I work at would end up in some significant court battles with the Feds or other law enforcement if they wanted our customer lists...  Or in our case, our customers, customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Wow.

What the hell happened to this country?

The Republicans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I can't think of any condition that would make this okay. If ICE wants that information they should be going to Congress for a law, or at the minimum asking a judge for a warrant. Waking someone up at 5:00 am and asking if they could enter your room is bunk, would you allow that? 

And there is no reciprocity across the rest of the law, just more selective enforcement of the law.

Does ICE request suspicious contacts from Home Depot, Lowes and heavy equipment rental of their customers that purchase/rent a lot of home renovation supplies as being likely suspects to hire illegally? What about the lists from hotels and employers long the Northern border for undocumented Canadian workers?

Institutional racism, alive and well ... criminalize the brown people, arrest them to feed the prisons industry, give a pass to the peach-colored people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, mikewof said:

And there is no reciprocity across the rest of the law, just more selective enforcement of the law.

Does ICE request suspicious contacts from Home Depot, Lowes and heavy equipment rental of their customers that purchase/rent a lot of home renovation supplies as being likely suspects to hire illegally? What about the lists from hotels along the Northern border for possible illegal seasonal Canadian workers?

Institutional racism, alive and well ... criminalize the brown people, arrest them to feed the prisons industry, give a pass to the peach-colored people.

That's another thing, Mike; we have no idea what ICE does with that information, they could easily share that across the board while you scratch your head wondering how your credit card info was compromised. This needs to be looked at and stopped; law enforcement needs to respect and follow the law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it only the cheap hotels that they track? Keep tabs on the productive targets kind of thing?

I won't ever stay at a Motel 6 now.

Not that I ever did.

 

I don't know if it's still the case but hotels in France had to turn their registration cards over to the police every day BITD. They also held your passport while you were there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, bhyde said:

La Quinta would be my guess.

Ramadan Inn maybe ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Is it only the cheap hotels that they track? Keep tabs on the productive targets kind of thing?

I won't ever stay at a Motel 6 now.

Not that I ever did.

 

I don't know if it's still the case but hotels in France had to turn their registration cards over to the police every day BITD. They also held your passport while you were there.

Hotels in Europe will ask to see your passport, but they always hand them back, a few times they kept them a few hours while they reported the passport numbers to the police. The only time my passport was kept was on an overnight train.T

Here in America the Constitution protects our privacy and I don't see folks in a hurry to change that.

Whenever I travel I always go with a tiny black light, the thought of bunking with bed bugs grosses me out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, badlatitude said:

There are so many things wrong with your statement I hardly know where to start. First, my credit card numbers and other personal information are protected by the 4th Amendment to the Constitution as unlawful search and seizure. Second, most Immigrants are unaware that they are protected by our Constitution, but are likely to acquiesce when asked.You do not have to give permission for anyone to enter your motel room at any time and you do not have to give permission for your car to be searched.

The motel managers and the corporation that owns it has violated the 4th Amendment every time they produced a list without permission. What Motel 6 has done has created a lawsuit from every single person put on that list, and a national boycott that will force them to both apologize and change.

The motel can't violate the 4th, BL, that applies to government actors. They are required to abide by other protections under civil agreement, ie not disseminating CC #s - but, the rest of the info?  Guest Registers, purchase records, etc?  That's all THEIR information, they can do with it what they want, just like Google/Amazon selling your name to mailing lists.  
Would you be as upset if the Motel folks were helping cops catch gun runners, or is your ire due to your idea that we should have open borders, thus no illegal immigration - and any activity contrary to that just irks you? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Innkeepers should require birth certificates before a room is let.  Put the onus on them to keep America safe from immigrants.  They need to go all biblical.  Make them sleep in the stables with a manger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

That's what it sounds like, actually. See this story linked in the OP

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/motel-6-calling-ice-undocumented-guests-phoenix-immigration-lawyers-9683244

This isn't "building a case". This is guy checks into motel and gets arrested 6 hours later.

I Re-read the article in depth - it sounds like a combination of a franchise owner who wants to cooperate with ICE in their enforcement activities, and an enforcement agency that's happy to be provided information about potential illegal activity.  Do you feel as badly about the guest lists being checked against warrants and bolos?   The crux of the issue, I think - is whether or not you think it's appropriate for a business entity to provide assistance to law enforcement.    If I saw people selling drugs/guns on the corner?  I'd call the cops every time I saw it.  If I knew that the corner store had a video camera on that corner?  I'd suggest that the cops ask the store owner for copies of the tape - if the store owner agreed?  Cool. If not?  The cops can decide whether or not there's a basis for a warrant.   

The 4th provides protections against the government engaging in unreasonable search and seizure - it doesn't mean that if someone else sees you doing something questionable, that they have the same constraints w/r/t taking action on that awareness.  

To the article - there's a comment that I think ought to be considered and discussed - it's entirely probably in that community for a person to be legally visiting with ID credentials issued by Mexico - ensuring that those folks aren't wrongly bothered is something that those engaged in this activity ought to consider and accommodate. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't all businesses that deal with brown people alert ICE if they suspect illegal activities?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I Re-read the article in depth - it sounds like a combination of a franchise owner who wants to cooperate with ICE in their enforcement activities, and an enforcement agency that's happy to be provided information about potential illegal activity.  Do you feel as badly about the guest lists being checked against warrants and bolos?   The crux of the issue, I think - is whether or not you think it's appropriate for a business entity to provide assistance to law enforcement.    If I saw people selling drugs/guns on the corner?  I'd call the cops every time I saw it.  If I knew that the corner store had a video camera on that corner?  I'd suggest that the cops ask the store owner for copies of the tape - if the store owner agreed?  Cool. If not?  The cops can decide whether or not there's a basis for a warrant.   

The 4th provides protections against the government engaging in unreasonable search and seizure - it doesn't mean that if someone else sees you doing something questionable, that they have the same constraints w/r/t taking action on that awareness.  

To the article - there's a comment that I think ought to be considered and discussed - it's entirely probably in that community for a person to be legally visiting with ID credentials issued by Mexico - ensuring that those folks aren't wrongly bothered is something that those engaged in this activity ought to consider and accommodate. 

 

So you're ok with your transaction info being sent to the Feds so they can keep an eye on you?

i didn't say it's illegal, but I damn well won't be staying at motel 6. I like my privacy. The little that's left that is. Equifax...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Shouldn't all businesses that deal with brown people alert ICE the authorities if they suspect illegal activities?

FIFY - and yeah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

FIFY - and yeah. 

Except. Motel 6 wasn't providing notification of suspected illegal activities. They were turning over ALL checkin records. Is that what you want? All business transactions monitored by the Feds? At least it's clear that "small govt" is a farce....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The motel can't violate the 4th, BL, that applies to government actors. They are required to abide by other protections under civil agreement, ie not disseminating CC #s - but, the rest of the info?  Guest Registers, purchase records, etc?  That's all THEIR information, they can do with it what they want, just like Google/Amazon selling your name to mailing lists.  
Would you be as upset if the Motel folks were helping cops catch gun runners, or is your ire due to your idea that we should have open borders, thus no illegal immigration - and any activity contrary to that just irks you? 

Motel 6 was sending information protected by the 4th Amendment and that is a clear violation. I think Motel 6 also should be open about their privacy practices, I would not stay in a place that sent my name and credit card for a background check, I find that repugnant and would not give money to any business that does that. Motel 6 is in the overnight hospitality business and it isn't in the business of playing cop with its guests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

So you're ok with your transaction info being sent to the Feds so they can keep an eye on you?

i didn't say it's illegal, but I damn well won't be staying at motel 6. I like my privacy. The little that's left that is. Equifax...

It's a precarious balance - and I don't blame you for your hotel choice, if you're in Phoenix.  A story for ya:  In March before 9-11, I was sent on a long-term TDY to Louisiana.  EDS travel booked me into the " Orleans Courtyard" - I got there, and it's not a Marriott property, to say the least.  I got there, and the clerk asked for my car's license plate #, and a picture of my DL.   A little later, I went out, and I saw a cop checking out my car.   He asked if he could look inside, and being a rental that was absolutely empty, I agreed.  After he was satisfied - I asked what was going on - he shared that the neighborhood wasn't very nice ( no kidding) and that this cheap hotel was the scene of a lot of drug/human trafficking, and that they'd asked the hotel to have the clerks send the info on any out of state guests to the NOPD substation that was a few blocks down the street, so that they could run a check.    I was more than mildly put off, but, understood.  I stayed there only long enough for corp travel to get me in to the extended stay suites in Metairie, that was my home away from home until 9/11 and my drive back to VA that night. 

The point?  I understand the optics, and will agree that in this particular case - it looks like the hotel's going overboard, but, that with what I'd experienced, I can see and understand that cooperation could be OK. 

 

Edited to add link to that lovely place- when I got there, the pool was green, and looked like it had been being used as a receptacle for all kinds of crud - http://orleanscourtyardinn.weebly.com/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Motel 6 was sending information protected by the 4th Amendment and that is a clear violation. I think Motel 6 also should be open about their privacy practices, I would not stay in a place that sent my name and credit card for a background check, I find that repugnant and would not give money to any business that does that. Motel 6 is in the overnight hospitality business and it isn't in the business of playing cop with its guests.

Go read the 4th - and then tell me how it legally applies in this situation.  I think that your honestly mistaken . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Go read the 4th - and then tell me how it legally applies in this situation.  I think that your honestly mistaken . 

Are you saying that my drivers license and credit card are not protected? Because I'm pretty sure they are. I'll go along with hotels can send lists, but there better not be proprietary information on that list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

Are you saying that my drivers license and credit card are not protected? Because I'm pretty sure they are. I'll go along with hotels can send lists, but there better not be proprietary information on that list.

Yup - now we're tracking.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Shouldn't all businesses that deal with brown people alert ICE if they suspect illegal activities?

Fuckin' A!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Are you saying that my drivers license and credit card are not protected? Because I'm pretty sure they are. I'll go along with hotels can send lists, but there better not be proprietary information on that list.

Yup - now we're tracking.  

Look, you all are way way behind. Your info is extremely valuable. And it's not yours! Corporations make a lot of money collecting and organizing information about customers, potential customers, or whomever, and they have no obligation to the individuals to keep that info private.

As Americans (and I suspect Canadians too) we sort of grew up with the assumption that we have privacy, and the right to privacy, but that is no longer true. In the US the gov't still needs a warrant (most of the time) if they want to actually come inside your home, but they can plant remote sensors and learn anything about what's going on inside. If you go out in public, you are almost certainly on camera and can be tracked. Buying stuff? Forget it, we all know we're being tracked by our credit/debit/whatever cards. And the cell phone (even more so the smart phone) is a wonderful spy device.

And not only is it not currently protected, the people corporations who make money off your data are lobbying the gov't to pass laws so that you will have no say about your data, and they will have no responsibility to you at all. Nice, huh? Especially in a supposedly-free country.

And if you are tempted to say "That doesn't matter to me personally" just wait. Ever done anything even slightly illegal? Ever had an ex have a grudge that might want to make trouble whether justified or not? The jack booted thugs will be given your data and they will come for you, too.

This has been a public service dystopian rant. Thank you, now please return to your tasks.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Look, you all are way way behind. Your info is extremely valuable. And it's not yours! Corporations make a lot of money collecting and organizing information about customers, potential customers, or whomever, and they have no obligation to the individuals to keep that info private.

As Americans (and I suspect Canadians too) we sort of grew up with the assumption that we have privacy, and the right to privacy, but that is no longer true. In the US the gov't still needs a warrant (most of the time) if they want to actually come inside your home, but they can plant remote sensors and learn anything about what's going on inside. If you go out in public, you are almost certainly on camera and can be tracked. Buying stuff? Forget it, we all know we're being tracked by our credit/debit/whatever cards. And the cell phone (even more so the smart phone) is a wonderful spy device.

And not only is it not currently protected, the people corporations who make money off your data are lobbying the gov't to pass laws so that you will have no say about your data, and they will have no responsibility to you at all. Nice, huh? Especially in a supposedly-free country.

And if you are tempted to say "That doesn't matter to me personally" just wait. Ever done anything even slightly illegal? Ever had an ex have a grudge that might want to make trouble whether justified or not? The jack booted thugs will be given your data and they will come for you, too.

This has been a public service dystopian rant. Thank you, now please return to your tasks.

-DSK

I agree with everything that you've said in this post - and would add that the ability to extract our personal data from "the ether" is something I'd gladly support. The other side of that though, is that the companies with whom we do business have a vested interest in using their transaction data to establish trends, metrics, and customer lists as targets of focused marketing.  There's a balance point out there, and right now I agree that it's tipped too far in favor of the people who want to exploit our personal information every way that they can.   Right now?  My approach is to opt out of almost every offer for a "store card", "customer loyalty card", and to put myself on "do not call lists".   Beyond that - I'm pretty much unaware of what an individual can do to lesson the exposure of their transaction history, short of buying everything anonymously and paying cash, and we all understand how impractical that is today. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Go read the 4th - and then tell me how it legally applies in this situation.  I think that your honestly mistaken . 

Understood, now imagine the government demanding the lists from the motels.  Would that be a violation of the 4th?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

Understood, now imagine the government demanding the lists from the motels.  Would that be a violation of the 4th?

Without due cause and a warrant? I'd say unequivocally so.  

The distinction is slight - but, quite important.  Kinda like our interpretation of the 1st - it doesn't preclude any individual response to someone's speech - it does establish that the government may not abridge that speech.  In comparing the actions of the government /vs/ the actions of a private individual, governmental actions are indeed held to a more stringent standard, unless, of course, we're talking about the IRS who can do what they want and it's up to you to prove them wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Without due cause and a warrant? I'd say unequivocally so.  

The distinction is slight - but, quite important.  Kinda like our interpretation of the 1st - it doesn't preclude any individual response to someone's speech - it does establish that the government may not abridge that speech.  In comparing the actions of the government /vs/ the actions of a private individual, governmental actions are indeed held to a more stringent standard, unless, of course, we're talking about the IRS who can do what they want and it's up to you to prove them wrong. 

So a request by police for intel and provided willingly by a third party is ok.  Now if that nurse didn't obstruct the cop wanting a blood sample and allowed him to get it, would that be a violation of the 4th?  I think so since he didn't have a warrant.  Much like this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

So a request by police for intel and provided willingly by a third party is ok.  Now if that nurse didn't obstruct the cop wanting a blood sample and allowed him to get it, would that be a violation of the 4th?  I think so since he didn't have a warrant.  Much like this case.

How about marinas that provide your info, as a boat owner, to tax authorities?

That's pretty much all of them. Kind of pisses me off but 1- nothing I can do except not stay in marinas very often and 2- make sure my taxes are paid properly and 3- provide countervailing info at all opportunities.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Spatial Ed said:

So a request by police for intel and provided willingly by a third party is ok.  Now if that nurse didn't obstruct the cop wanting a blood sample and allowed him to get it, would that be a violation of the 4th?  I think so since he didn't have a warrant.  Much like this case.

I think that you're right, besides not thinking that the hotel register is considered to be PII, like an SSN. CC#, or drawn blood would be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I think that you're right, besides not thinking that the hotel register is considered to be PII, like an SSN. CC#, or drawn blood would be. 

Your name is PII.  Bigly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree with this practice necessarily.  But this is pretty much common practice in many places in the world including many countries in Europe.  I recall Italian hotels are required to report their guest's passport info to the police everyday.  Same in the UAE.  

After living in a country for the last 6 years that requires a National ID card to do anything in the country - I am getting more and more on board with the concept.  Here you cannot work, open a bank account, get a mobile phone, rent an apartment, get a driver's license, or any number of other things without a National ID card.  And it has to be renewed every 3 years at the same time as your residence visa.  As a result there is almost no illegal immigration in a country that is almost 100% entirely reliant on immigrant labor.  And unlike most people's perceptions - I don't see it as being overly burdensome or onerous.  It's a non-event. 

If the US adopted the same thing, it would simplify so much.  It would solve the illegal immigration issue overnight.  I'd be willing to give amnesty to most of the 13M illegals here in the US if we adopted a system like this in return.  

OTOH, I don't have much of an expectation of privacy here - so there is that aspect to it.  So I'm naturally torn between this efficiency and the lack of real privacy.  But the lack of privacy here truly falls under the concept of "If you're not doing anything wrong, no one is going to bother you".  But I'm still not totally comfortable with that yet.  

Its a conundrum.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

How about marinas that provide your info, as a boat owner, to tax authorities?

That's pretty much all of them. Kind of pisses me off but 1- nothing I can do except not stay in marinas very often and 2- make sure my taxes are paid properly and 3- provide countervailing info at all opportunities.

-DSK

That's what I do here. Lie cheerfully and at every possible opportunity. I haven't filled out any online registration information truthfully for over 2 decades. I generally use a passport as ID because it has no address data on it. I have a driver's licence in one state and my vehicles registered in a different one, not linked to my DL.

It takes work to pollute the databases but it's very satisfying. I spent a lot of time designing databases for money, now I like polluting them for fun.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Spatial Ed said:

Shouldn't all businesses that deal with brown people alert ICE if they suspect illegal activities?

I think the idea is that businesses should eVerify employees but not customers. I'm not really sure why one is good and one is bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I agree with everything that you've said in this post - and would add that the ability to extract our personal data from "the ether" is something I'd gladly support. The other side of that though, is that the companies with whom we do business have a vested interest in using their transaction data to establish trends, metrics, and customer lists as targets of focused marketing.  There's a balance point out there, and right now I agree that it's tipped too far in favor of the people who want to exploit our personal information every way that they can.   Right now?  My approach is to opt out of almost every offer for a "store card", "customer loyalty card", and to put myself on "do not call lists".   Beyond that - I'm pretty much unaware of what an individual can do to lesson the exposure of their transaction history, short of buying everything anonymously and paying cash, and we all understand how impractical that is today. 

Even that is not enough, apps on your phone track where you are inside of stores and sell that info back to the stores and others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, LenP said:

Even that is not enough, apps on your phone track where you are inside of stores and sell that info back to the stores and others.

Yup - I usually leave the "location" turned off unless I need to use maps/navigation.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it bad for Motel 6 to benefit from renting rooms to illegals in the same way it's bad for them to benefit from hiring them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Is it bad for Motel 6 to benefit from renting rooms to illegals in the same way it's bad for them to benefit from hiring them?

I wonder how many people would be cheering instead of jeerig if the lists were used to target the KKK/Nazis?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I wonder how many people would be cheering instead of jeerig if the lists were used to target the KKK/Nazis?  

 

Or republicans.   Oh wait, no difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Is it bad for Motel 6 to benefit from renting rooms to illegals in the same way it's bad for them to benefit from hiring them?

They are not remotely the same. There is nothing illegal in renting a room to someone in the country illegally - even if you know their visa is expired / non-existent, you are not committing a crime providing that service. The same cannot be said of hiring them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I don't agree with this practice necessarily.  But this is pretty much common practice in many places in the world including many countries in Europe.  I recall Italian hotels are required to report their guest's passport info to the police everyday.  Same in the UAE.  

After living in a country for the last 6 years that requires a National ID card to do anything in the country - I am getting more and more on board with the concept.  Here you cannot work, open a bank account, get a mobile phone, rent an apartment, get a driver's license, or any number of other things without a National ID card.  And it has to be renewed every 3 years at the same time as your residence visa.  As a result there is almost no illegal immigration in a country that is almost 100% entirely reliant on immigrant labor.  And unlike most people's perceptions - I don't see it as being overly burdensome or onerous.  It's a non-event. 

If the US adopted the same thing, it would simplify so much.  It would solve the illegal immigration issue overnight.  I'd be willing to give amnesty to most of the 13M illegals here in the US if we adopted a system like this in return.  

OTOH, I don't have much of an expectation of privacy here - so there is that aspect to it.  So I'm naturally torn between this efficiency and the lack of real privacy.  But the lack of privacy here truly falls under the concept of "If you're not doing anything wrong, no one is going to bother you".  But I'm still not totally comfortable with that yet.  

Its a conundrum.

 

Thy don't allow guns either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bent Sailor said:

They are not remotely the same. There is nothing illegal in renting a room to someone in the country illegally - even if you know their visa is expired / non-existent, you are not committing a crime providing that service. The same cannot be said of hiring them.

I didn't ask about legality. I asked if it was bad. I don't set my moral compass by what the government does or does not prohibit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I didn't ask about legality. I asked if it was bad. I don't set my moral compass by what the government does or does not prohibit.

And I pointed to the legality as an indication of responsibility.

I don't think one is responsible for determining the visa status of one's customers. The law agrees.

I do believe one is responsible for determining whether it is legal to employ someone.

Shirking one's responsibilities is a bad thing and, in this case, the law defines those responsibilities whether you agree with them or not.

Your moral compass might not care about responsibility. Mine does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

And I pointed to the legality as an indication of responsibility.

I don't think one is responsible for determining the visa status of one's customers. The law agrees.

I do believe one is responsible for determining whether it is legal to employ someone.

Shirking one's responsibilities is a bad thing and, in this case, the law defines those responsibilities whether you agree with them or not.

Your moral compass might not care about responsibility. Mine does.

I don't look to government for examples of responsibility. That would be the same as deciding that "what's legal is moral, what's not is not." I don't operate that way.

If it's bad for Motel 6 to profit (unknowingly, wink wink) from renting to illegals, perhaps we should change the law?

For those of us who don't look to government to define right and wrong for us, such questions matter. The law might be missing something. Perhaps we need to make it illegal for Motel 6 to profit from renting to illegals. It's not illegal, but might still be bad.

So I asked whether it was bad. Leaving aside the question of legality, is it bad?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I don't look to government for examples of responsibility. That would be the same as deciding that "what's legal is moral, what's not is not." I don't operate that way.

I didn't look to the government for an example of responsibility. I don't operate that way either. Your point is therefore, whilst perhaps interesting to you, irrelevant to what you quoted me saying.

 

6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

If it's bad for Motel 6 to profit (unknowingly, wink wink) from renting to illegals, perhaps we should change the law?

I'm not sure why you're asking me that. If you wish to take the position it is bad and/or the law needs to be changed - feel free to make an argument for either or both those cases. I've told you before that I'm not interested in answering questions that are based on hypotheticals. That's a game you'll have to bait someone else into playing.

 

6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

For those of us who don't look to government to define right and wrong for us, such questions matter. The law might be missing something. Perhaps we need to make it illegal for Motel 6 to profit from renting to illegals. It's not illegal, but might still be bad.

So I asked whether it was bad. Leaving aside the question of legality, is it bad?

Outside the question of legailty, there is nothing to differentiate between the customers Motel 6 might choose to offer their services to. So, outside the question of legality, the answer to your question lies in whether or not you think the service Motel 6 offers is "bad". I don't think offering motel services are bad. Do you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

I don't think offering motel services are bad. Do you?

No worse than hiring people. Either way, it's a transaction. I have a generally positive view of those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

No worse than hiring people. Either way, it's a transaction. I have a generally positive view of those.

Neither you nor I asked if it was better or worse than hiring people. You asked, outside the question of legality, whether it was "bad". Is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

No worse than hiring people. Either way, it's a transaction. I have a generally positive view of those.

Actually, hiring illegals is worse, takes jobs from Americans and artificially lowers wages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 7:51 PM, Spatial Ed said:
On 9/16/2017 at 7:40 PM, Uncooperative Tom said:

No worse than hiring people. Either way, it's a transaction. I have a generally positive view of those.

Actually, hiring illegals is worse, takes jobs from Americans and artificially lowers wages.

Yeah, but renting rooms to illegals is taking beds away from Americans.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the new Motel 6 ad slogan should be "we'll leave the light on..... for ICE"  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, but renting rooms to illegals is taking beds away from Americans.  

Not to mention enabling and profiting from illegal behavior. They can't work here without a place to stay.

If we really want the government to watch all transactions for traces of illegal activity, we should be applauding Motel 6 here. For the record, I'm not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:
On 9/16/2017 at 11:51 AM, Spatial Ed said:
On 9/16/2017 at 11:40 AM, Uncooperative Tom said:

No worse than hiring people. Either way, it's a transaction. I have a generally positive view of those.

Actually, hiring illegals is worse, takes jobs from Americans and artificially lowers wages.

Yeah, but renting rooms to illegals is taking beds away from Americans.  

Hey everybody, Jeff made a funny! Jeff made a funny!!

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posters here are fond of using Illegals as an example of how the Motel 6 should handle the issue or responsibility. I don't see illegals as remotely relevant. On the world stage they are everywhere...

How about using real world stage players to include Trump resorts the new North End Vegas resorts we're watching grow, and worst of all the rapidly growing threats illegals using hotels as a place of refuge 

And let us not overlook our factions of home-grown hooligans of all stripes who somehow obtain hotel rooms... Lots of hotel rooms....

US citizens turning in for the  night at Motel 6??? Get real. That ship sunk a loooong time ago..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2017 at 7:49 PM, Raz'r said:

So - I take it that you think it's fine for businesses to send their customer lists to the Feds for, i don't know, any reason whatsoever?

I can tell you the company I work at would end up in some significant court battles with the Feds or other law enforcement if they wanted our customer lists...  Or in our case, our customers, customers.

I think if someone -or a company- believes someone else is engaging in illegal activity they SHOULD turn them in.

That being said I bet this isn't just a random thing.  I bet someone renting a room and the staff see 30 non English speaking people going in and out of the room.  

When my sister was at university she worked at Disney World one summer - at a hotel.   She said foreigners from specific countries had to be instructed they MUST shitin the toilets and not leave piles on the floor for staff to clean up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

I think if someone -or a company- believes someone else is engaging in illegal activity they SHOULD turn them in.

But I don't think a company should be reporting everyone, on the off chance one of them is engaging in illegal activity the company is neither aware of or suspicious of.

Sending the entire list of customer for each day, indiscriminately, does not fall into "believing they are engaging in illegal behaviour". It wasn't done for the room with 30 non-English speaking people going in & out of. It was a daily procedure for the motel regardless of who happened to be staying there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

I think if someone -or a company- believes someone else is engaging in illegal activity they SHOULD turn them in.

That being said I bet this isn't just a random thing.  I bet someone renting a room and the staff see 30 non English speaking people going in and out of the room.  

When my sister was at university she worked at Disney World one summer - at a hotel.   She said foreigners from specific countries had to be instructed they MUST shitin the toilets and not leave piles on the floor for staff to clean up.

Nice making shit up. Why don't you read the article. They sent over their customer list daily. That's it. I don't think I need the Feds checking me every day.

now, as to the "other country" practices, their countries have rules where you DO have to show your papers to check into a hotel. We don't have that. Yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

But I don't think a company should be reporting everyone, on the off chance one of them is engaging in illegal activity the company is neither aware of or suspicious of.

Sending the entire list of customer for each day, indiscriminately, does not fall into "believing they are engaging in illegal behaviour". It wasn't done for the room with 30 non-English speaking people going in & out of. It was a daily procedure for the motel regardless of who happened to be staying there.

You honestly believe they were turning every guests info over to ICE?  You don't think that was a way to keep specific people from being able to claim discrimination?   You claim to be smart but I'm thinking it's only 'book' smarts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Nice making shit up. Why don't you read the article. They sent over their customer list daily. That's it. I don't think I need the Feds checking me every day.

now, as to the "other country" practices, their countries have rules where you DO have to show your papers to check into a hotel. We don't have that. Yet.

See my response to Razr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Rockdog said:

You honestly believe they were turning every guests info over to ICE?

Yes, because that is exactly what they said they were doing. 

 

Just now, Rockdog said:

You claim to be smart but I'm thinking it's only 'book' smarts.

Well, it's a good thing you don't even claim basic street smarts. We'd never stop laughing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0