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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Editor

strict class

67 posts in this topic

melges-ic37-300x169.jpg

We were kind of surprised to see the new Melges IC 37, which was originally introduced as the NYYC One Design, but is now branded and managed and sold by Melges. There are a couple things that really jump out:

1) Only Group 1 sailors can sail

2) An attractive price of $259,000

3) Must get North Sails

We dig 1 and 2, but even ignoring our dislike of North Sails, why, oh why, would they limit sails to only one sailmaker?? What is the incentive for salesmen from OneSails, or Dolye, or Ullman, or Quantum or any other sailmaker to recommend this boat if they can't sell sails?

What if you are a long time and happy customer of any of the above sailmakers and want to stay with that brand?

It is a ridiculous rule and one that we are certain will be met with derision from any sailmaker who isn't North.  Comments?

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Duh, to make it one design.  Let the sailors duke it out, not the sailmakers.  Think Laser. 

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ZENDA, Wis. (Sept. 13, 2017) — Melges Performance Sailboats is proud to announce the addition of a new class to the Melges line: the IC37 by Melges, a 37-foot modern race boat. Exclusively for Group 1 sailors, the strict one-design class will be simple and fun with competitive racing at sailing’s most celebrated venues.
 
Partnering with the New York Yacht Club (NYYC), Mills Design, Westerly Marine and North Sails, Melges looks forward to the opportunity to launch and develop the Melges IC37 Class Association. With critical mass already set in place by the NYYC, this fleet will be a modern one-design racer with an international reach. The IC37 by Melges is designed to be a one-design for the masses and a great IRC/ORC competitor with optional interior fit outs available.
 
Starting with a fleet of 20 boats owned by the New York Yacht Club, Melges will market and grow the class to international recognition. When sailors step onto the IC37 by Melges, they will step onto a one-of-a-kind, high quality product backed by the industry’s leader in performance one-design racing and built by one of the leading performance boat builders in the world, Westerly Marine. Melges Performance Sailboats will lead the development of the class association, the regatta circuit, measurement, one-design class rules, promotional events and new boat sales.
 
“The time has come for a strict one-design class of this size, designed and built to accommodate a wide spectrum of crew skills, targeting the Corinthian sailors of the world. We are dedicated to enriching all areas of one-design racing, including youth, Corinthian, women’s and Grand Prix style racing,” said Harry Melges.
 
The New York Yacht Club was the project’s visionary force. By using the first twenty IC37s to carry the Rolex New York Yacht Club Invitational Cup into its second decade and beyond, the NYYC is creating a rock-solid, established base for the new fleet. The club carefully selected the most qualified partners for the job. Melges is honored to take on this project and work with some of the industry’s best. From a number of submissions from top yacht designers around the globe, the NYYC selected a Mills Design proposal. Production is already underway at Westerly Marine of Santa Ana, California, an experienced builder capable of very high quality offshore builds. North Sails, the leading international sailmaker, has joined the team as the class’s exclusive sailmaker for the one-design sail package. Harken and Southern Spars are named as official suppliers to the new class.
 
The strict one-design rules outlined by the Melges IC37 Class Association are built on the ideals of Corinthian sailing. All components will be built to the strictest tolerances and measured to ensure the tightest one-design rules. One-design sails will be enforced with no expensive sail development programs allowed – One main, one jib and one asymmetrical spinnaker. Rules will include limited hiking and a basic electronics package. The boat is designed for eight Group 1 sailors.
 
Learn more about the IC37 by Melges by visiting the Melges Performance Sailboats booth at upcoming boat shows, Newport, Annapolis and Chicago, to name a few.
 
Follow the journey on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Visit MelgesIC37Class.com to learn more.

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Unmitigated doom...

 

 

and failure!

 

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

Duh, to make it one design.  Let the sailors duke it out, not the sailmakers.  Think Laser. 

duh, you wouldn't be singing that tune if you worked for Quantum.

duh, it's not a laser. imagine if the melges 20, 24, 32, farr 40, etchells, ad nauseam did that? 

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I am trying to imagine Westerly pumping out all of these hulls in this time frame.  Have they ever done a real production run like this?  I know that they build great product, but this seems a bit out of their comfort zone.

I am very happy to see the business come to SoCal, so I wish them the best of luck.

And let's see how the sailmaker thing goes.......in theory, it should keep the cost down ;)

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5 minutes ago, Editor said:

duh, you wouldn't be singing that tune if you worked for Quantum.

duh, it's not a laser. imagine if the melges 20, 24, 32, farr 40, etchells, ad nauseam did that? 

I sailed on an ad nauseam once, it wasn't very pleasant.

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Opps, should have read deeper.  With NYYC buying first 20 boats, I think that does create critical mass.  Maybe North Sails deal includes a guaranteed sail pricing structure?

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World domination? Many have tried, all have failed. Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

Marketing madness in these times.

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I really don't think anybody is that dedicated to one sailmaker that it is a real issue. Did 10 years of working with Ullman stop me getting a 49er? It was a shame i no longer had anything to work on with friends, but that is what happens with OD and I think a OD boat of this size would be very attractive to many. I doubt there are that many sailors who are wedded to a single sailmaker that would make this a problem. If you don't understand the benefit of a single sailmaker, this probably isn't the class for you. I hope they also limit the number of new sails per year.

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yeah, what's a group 1 sailor?  Are there group 0 sailors - how many groups we talking?

Does $259k include the north sails?

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To grossly oversimplify:

Group 1 are the amateurs, Group 3 are the pros, and Group 2 is like an AA meeting for those trying to become Group 1 again. When the code is used, it is typically used as a means to minimize the influence of Group 3 sailors, either by limiting their numbers or responsibilities onboard.

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Group 2 doesn't exist anymore. 1 or 3 only. 

OD sails are hardly a new concept. Don't like it? Buy another boat. There are people who do. But there's nothing to stop you building other sails for non OD racing (subject to rating rule requirement).

Limited hiking though? Really? Can see advantages of tight lower lifelines, but more than that? 

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So name a class where rules say one sailmaker only where the sails don't look like crap or all look different.

Laser  No

49er   No

Besides, as someone looking for a new fast 40 footer I am really going to buy a boat where I have to buy sails from an organization whose representatives that seems to treat you like shit unless you are about to buy a super maxi!

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6 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Duh, to make it one design.  Let the sailors duke it out, not the sailmakers.  Think Laser. 

even Laser sails are dual or triple sourced. Hyde and North being the bigger makers

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5 hours ago, lydia said:

So name a class where rules say one sailmaker only where the sails don't look like crap or all look different.

Laser  No

49er   No

Hobie 16 - yes

Hobie Cat builds the sails for the 16 (and the 14, 17, 18, 20 - but they don't have the international reach the 16 does).  The sails look good, work well and are reasonably durable.  Except the jib - but it gets beaten up on the mast.  Mains are good for ~5 years.  YMMV.

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Hi,

      A couple of seemingly connected comments in the above grab my attention briefly:

  1. The IC37 by Melges is designed to be a one-design for the masses
  2. An attractive price of $259,000

 I'd like to join these masses someday... Currently many of the families I introduce to sailing struggle to justify $1000 (or so, in Sterling) for a boat that their kid needs to have to go to junior regattas...

  I know there are many tiers of affluence from the "Just About Managing" to the "if you have to ask..." but Really?  Seems to me we're a long, long way from a $260K toy being a product for the masses...

Cheers,

                W.

P.S. you can be One-Design without being Single-Manufacturer- Optimists are one-design, achieved through measurement, despite having many sail suppliers. I've heard some interesting stories about SMOD sails, where gains can be made by carefully picking which sail you take of the rack at the loft... Your manufacturing tolerances need to be very carefully managed by someone to ensure an acceptably level playing field...

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My guess on the single source sails:

NYYC will acquire 20 sets for their 20 boats which will then be rotated for events.   e.g.: boat #7 may be assigned sail set #12 for one event then sail set #3 for the next event.  Hopefully this takes the sail quality/condition out of the question for their events.  The J44 class does this extremely well.

Now, if other people/clubs buy the boats, using a sole source sail manufacture will keep NYYC from the awkward situation that someone else's IC37 may be faster because of sail development.  They did the legwork for the design and coughed up the cash for an immediate 20 boat class, so it's understandable that they would like to protect their investment.

I think this is a great idea, but with 99% of things in sailing, it all depends on the execution.

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4 minutes ago, shoeby11 said:

My guess on the single source sails:

NYYC will acquire 20 sets for their 20 boats which will then be rotated for events.   e.g.: boat #7 may be assigned sail set #12 for one event then sail set #3 for the next event.  Hopefully this takes the sail quality/condition out of the question for their events.  The J44 class does this extremely well.

Now, if other people/clubs buy the boats, using a sole source sail manufacture will keep NYYC from the awkward situation that someone else's IC37 may be faster because of sail development.  They did the legwork for the design and coughed up the cash for an immediate 20 boat class, so it's understandable that they would like to protect their investment.

I think this is a great idea, but with 99% of things in sailing, it all depends on the execution.

With the NYYC setup, your yearly fee includes a set of sails that you keep. 

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32 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      A couple of seemingly connected comments in the above grab my attention briefly:

  1. The IC37 by Melges is designed to be a one-design for the masses
  2. An attractive price of $259,000

 I'd like to join these masses someday... Currently many of the families I introduce to sailing struggle to justify $1000 (or so, in Sterling) for a boat that their kid needs to have to go to junior regattas...

  I know there are many tiers of affluence from the "Just About Managing" to the "if you have to ask..." but Really?  Seems to me we're a long, long way from a $260K toy being a product for the masses...

Cheers,

                W.

P.S. you can be One-Design without being Single-Manufacturer- Optimists are one-design, achieved through measurement, despite having many sail suppliers. I've heard some interesting stories about SMOD sails, where gains can be made by carefully picking which sail you take of the rack at the loft... Your manufacturing tolerances need to be very carefully managed by someone to ensure an acceptably level playing field...

That price *is* quite good for a boat that size. I know 1/4 of a million dollars is a lot of money for some people, but if you are going to race at all in that size range with a new boat, that is a great price if the boat ends up being fast and well built.

There are plenty of cheap used boats around for the rest of us. The only $250K boat I will ever buy will be my home, but my old 6KSB would cost more than that if bought new today ;)

 

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Didn't the J/44 class adopt one design sails that rotated through the fleet? I know I'm jumping in the way back machine on this one.

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6 hours ago, lydia said:

So name a class where rules say one sailmaker only where the sails don't look like crap or all look different.

 

Volvo 65

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13 minutes ago, RATM said:

Didn't the J/44 class adopt one design sails that rotated through the fleet? I know I'm jumping in the way back machine on this one.

The J44 class owns the sails and rotates them from event to event

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57 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

That price *is* quite good for a boat that size. I know 1/4 of a million dollars is a lot of money for some people, but if you are going to race at all in that size range with a new boat, that is a great price if the boat ends up being fast and well built.

There are plenty of cheap used boats around for the rest of us. The only $250K boat I will ever buy will be my home, but my old 6KSB would cost more than that if bought new today ;)

 

Hi,

      I can see that- Although I havn't done any research at this price-point, as it's a couple of orders of magnitude out of my league, I'm happy enough to accept that this design is attractively priced - my point was more about the "designed for the masses" comment than the price on the sticker...  Maybe my view of the world is narrower than I thought... my assumption was that a $250K toy would be something enjoyed by a minority...

Cheers,

              W.

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The concept of One Design is certainly good. The exclusion of other sailmakers is bad for sure. Many of the One Designs discussed above are produced in mass quantity and are all of very small size and frankly all of those sails are made overseas and out of cheap cloth etc. This is an offshore boat/One Design. As there will be no competition from other sailmakers North will be able to charge whatever they want and it wont be cheap. It will for sure keep people like me and I would imagine several others from recommending the boat or pushing to get customers into it...Why would I? Why would Quantum? Or any other sailmaker? On the J-44's mentioned above the the fleet sails are split up between North Doyle and Quantum and only used for very specific events. Even the NY-42's were split between sailmakers and outside of that specific event the boats and owners were able to choose what sailmaker they wanted to work with. In my over 30+ years in the business I have been very active in helping build very successful Local One Design fleets that have been very beneficial to both owners and sailmakers alike. It has been proven time and time again that all of the top sailmakers are capable of making a good sail or set of sails for just about any type of boat. Owners have their relationships and its absolutely shocking that they would put a restriction in like this that runs the real risk of limiting the potential sales force of this boat not to mention the real possibility of driving the costs up because they can. For the NYYC I can understand the decision to have all the sails alike and they probably got a deal and a half, but to limit sailmakers outside of that and lessen the possibility of developing local or even traveling fleets around the world just makes no sense. They should encourage the competition so the sails are the best they can be. As far as I know the sail package was not bid out or if it was someone on the inside had already made the decision. This sailmaker limitation does nothing to grow the sport which is super disappointing.

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15 minutes ago, John Baxter said:

By the way the VOR-65 Chosen sailmaker has for sure limited participation in that event.

I know I bailed out of that class for sure :lol:

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17 minutes ago, John Baxter said:

The concept of One Design is certainly good. The exclusion of other sailmakers is bad for sure. Many of the One Designs discussed above are produced in mass quantity and are all of very small size and frankly all of those sails are made overseas and out of cheap cloth etc. This is an offshore boat/One Design. As there will be no competition from other sailmakers North will be able to charge whatever they want and it wont be cheap. It will for sure keep people like me and I would imagine several others from recommending the boat or pushing to get customers into it...Why would I? Why would Quantum? Or any other sailmaker? On the J-44's mentioned above the the fleet sails are split up between North Doyle and Quantum and only used for very specific events. Even the NY-42's were split between sailmakers and outside of that specific event the boats and owners were able to choose what sailmaker they wanted to work with. In my over 30+ years in the business I have been very active in helping build very successful Local One Design fleets that have been very beneficial to both owners and sailmakers alike. It has been proven time and time again that all of the top sailmakers are capable of making a good sail or set of sails for just about any type of boat. Owners have their relationships and its absolutely shocking that they would put a restriction in like this that runs the real risk of limiting the potential sales force of this boat not to mention the real possibility of driving the costs up because they can. For the NYYC I can understand the decision to have all the sails alike and they probably got a deal and a half, but to limit sailmakers outside of that and lessen the possibility of developing local or even traveling fleets around the world just makes no sense. They should encourage the competition so the sails are the best they can be. As far as I know the sail package was not bid out or if it was someone on the inside had already made the decision. This sailmaker limitation does nothing to grow the sport which is super disappointing.

Or..........they want to prevent an arms race and have the boats REALLY be the same ;)

 

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I noted reference to the Etchells in an above comment, which has carded sail restrictions.  This rule is stupid because owners will take the sails back to the sailmaker prior to each day of racing for a "tweak" for the expected conditions the following day.  This class will be a disaster.  I also didn't note any sail purchase restrictions, so the money saved from the "low cost" boats will be spent on a new suit of sails for each race.

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56 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      I can see that- Although I havn't done any research at this price-point, as it's a couple of orders of magnitude out of my league, I'm happy enough to accept that this design is attractively priced - my point was more about the "designed for the masses" comment than the price on the sticker...  Maybe my view of the world is narrower than I thought... my assumption was that a $250K toy would be something enjoyed by a minority...

Cheers,

              W.

You and I are not the target market for this. Kind of like a new "cheap" $150,000 airplane is not ever going to take over the market for $20,000 used airplanes.

You could spend that much on a Catalina 40 and not go as fast. This is a good price point to get into this kind of racing especially if they keep sails and fairing under control (see J-70 thread).

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I guess Ken Read has been all over it at the NYYC, would be good if they duel sourced with one design to give better pricing. Also would have been nice for NYYC to have accepted presentations from other sailmakers to pitch for the work. It does look like North bought the business, but I guess thats how politics at the big clubs work, not what you know, but who. 

10 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I really don't think anybody is that dedicated to one sailmaker that it is a real issue. Did 10 years of working with Ullman stop me getting a 49er? It was a shame i no longer had anything to work on with friends, but that is what happens with OD and I think a OD boat of this size would be very attractive to many. I doubt there are that many sailors who are wedded to a single sailmaker that would make this a problem. If you don't understand the benefit of a single sailmaker, this probably isn't the class for you. I hope they also limit the number of new sails per year.

 

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Maybe someone could sell practice sails like they do for Lasers

 

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1 hour ago, John Baxter said:

By the way the VOR-65 Chosen sailmaker has for sure limited participation in that event.

I know what you mean.  I just wasn't ready to trade up an Express 27 for a VOR-65 because I couldn't go with a different sailmaker.  :rolleyes:

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all the slagging aside, I know a couple guys who might just get back into the game with this sort of deal. 

No dealing with endless optimizing from the sailmakers and riggers

You can sail with your buddies without feeling like you've got no chance.

price is do-able for many tech execs below the Cxx level.

Shoot, I might have to send a couple emails for folks to "check this out" - I wonder if I can find 5 guys....

 

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Until you get 5 non-NYYC boats in your locale, and you will most likely race handicap and what keeps you from buying whatever sails you want for PHRF? I don't think they can outlaw other vendors for PHRF - now if you want to go race the NYYC boats in THEIR class.......

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The truth is this thread never would have existed if it were any sailmaker other than North.  I think it's a great idea frankly, and would think that whichever sailmaker they selected.  Seems like a great way to ensure a true OD fleet. 

In every one design fleet, there is always one sailmaker or another who has their stuff more together and is building the fast sails.  It's less fun when you're going out to race level knowing you're already at a disadvantage.

Hell I'd go one step further and ask North to stretch out the design cycle so that they're not unveiling a new set of OD sails every year. I was watching a video from the J70 worlds and it seemed kind of ridiculous hearing the number of iterations of jibs sailmakers have gone through.

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what about group w bench sailors ?  they have all the money .     and the cars.    and the girls (or trans ).     has  scooter bought one yet ?

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I'm willing to bet its a moot point.  20 will go to NYYC and maybe another 5-10 get sold.  

For the NYYC 20, it makes sense for a club boat.  But to try and mass market this thing and limit the sailmaker choice is shortsighted at best.  This boat will for sure not be in my fantasy lotto fleet.  

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4 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I'm willing to bet its a moot point.  20 will go to NYYC and maybe another 5-10 get sold.  

For the NYYC 20, it makes sense for a club boat.  But to try and mass market this thing and limit the sailmaker choice is shortsighted at best.  This boat will for sure not be in my fantasy lotto fleet.  

The sail limit doesn't really effect the boats outside NYYC. If you're racing PHRF, IRC, etc., you can slap any sails you want on there. It still looks like a nice boat for the price in that size range, even if you have no concerns about one design. 

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17 hours ago, Editor said:
ZENDA, Wis. (Sept. 13, 2017) — Melges Performance Sailboats is proud to announce the addition of a new class to the Melges line: the IC37 by Melges, a 37-foot modern race boat. Exclusively for Group 1 sailors, the strict one-design class will be simple and fun with competitive racing at sailing’s most celebrated venues.
 
Partnering with the New York Yacht Club (NYYC), Mills Design, Westerly Marine and North Sails, Melges looks forward to the opportunity to launch and develop the Melges IC37 Class Association. With critical mass already set in place by the NYYC, this fleet will be a modern one-design racer with an international reach. The IC37 by Melges is designed to be a one-design for the masses and a great IRC/ORC competitor with optional interior fit outs available.
 
Starting with a fleet of 20 boats owned by the New York Yacht Club, Melges will market and grow the class to international recognition. When sailors step onto the IC37 by Melges, they will step onto a one-of-a-kind, high quality product backed by the industry’s leader in performance one-design racing and built by one of the leading performance boat builders in the world, Westerly Marine. Melges Performance Sailboats will lead the development of the class association, the regatta circuit, measurement, one-design class rules, promotional events and new boat sales.
 
“The time has come for a strict one-design class of this size, designed and built to accommodate a wide spectrum of crew skills, targeting the Corinthian sailors of the world. We are dedicated to enriching all areas of one-design racing, including youth, Corinthian, women’s and Grand Prix style racing,” said Harry Melges.
 
The New York Yacht Club was the project’s visionary force. By using the first twenty IC37s to carry the Rolex New York Yacht Club Invitational Cup into its second decade and beyond, the NYYC is creating a rock-solid, established base for the new fleet. The club carefully selected the most qualified partners for the job. Melges is honored to take on this project and work with some of the industry’s best. From a number of submissions from top yacht designers around the globe, the NYYC selected a Mills Design proposal. Production is already underway at Westerly Marine of Santa Ana, California, an experienced builder capable of very high quality offshore builds. North Sails, the leading international sailmaker, has joined the team as the class’s exclusive sailmaker for the one-design sail package. Harken and Southern Spars are named as official suppliers to the new class.
 
The strict one-design rules outlined by the Melges IC37 Class Association are built on the ideals of Corinthian sailing. All components will be built to the strictest tolerances and measured to ensure the tightest one-design rules. One-design sails will be enforced with no expensive sail development programs allowed – One main, one jib and one asymmetrical spinnaker. Rules will include limited hiking and a basic electronics package. The boat is designed for eight Group 1 sailors.
 
Learn more about the IC37 by Melges by visiting the Melges Performance Sailboats booth at upcoming boat shows, Newport, Annapolis and Chicago, to name a few.
 
Follow the journey on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Visit MelgesIC37Class.com to learn more.

 

Interesting that NYYC has $5 million (figure $250K per boat equipped) to drop on "club boats" 

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

all the slagging aside, I know a couple guys who might just get back into the game with this sort of deal. 

No dealing with endless optimizing from the sailmakers and riggers

You can sail with your buddies without feeling like you've got no chance.

price is do-able for many tech execs below the Cxx level.

Shoot, I might have to send a couple emails for folks to "check this out" - I wonder if I can find 5 guys....

 

 

you've done it before, should work again

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Well, someone has a sense of humour, I just got a newsletter on my email telling how I should North Sails for my IRC maxi!

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26 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

 

Interesting that NYYC has $5 million (figure $250K per boat equipped) to drop on "club boats" 

Pocket change for NYYC.

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20 minutes ago, aA said:

 

you've done it before, should work again

Oh no, not that program. More like former VP of XXX who doesn't know what to do with his time and money. Couple more like that....

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I think the bigger news here is Melges, not North.  

Interesting that Melges is reinventing as a service organization, repping a non-pro boat they did not design and are not building, but are still branding as their own.  Huge change of business model for them.  

Interesting that NYYC made a point of going with designers, builders and class organizers that don't start with "J/" even though J has a much more successful track record designing, (contracting for the) building and growing Corinthian fleets.  

Is NYYC trying to support a diverse sailing industry, much like the military tries to spread contracts around?

Other than North/Southern, and perhaps Mills, would anyone have predicted the companies chosen to run with this program?

I love the idea but fear the inevitable change or addition of builders (with resulting differences between boats), Melges-ization of the rules (I give it one year before pros are allowed) and battle royal between NYYC and everyone else for control of the class   

NYYC should have kept complete control until after the 2019 Resolute Cup. 

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Oh no, not that program. More like former VP of XXX who doesn't know what to do with his time and money. Couple more like that....

yes, not that program, but a similar attempt with other players...

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Quarter-mill+ get-in for a 37 foot dedicated racer you can't stand up in, needs 8 guys, only has 3 sails ?

ah....no thank you 

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7 hours ago, John Baxter said:

The concept of One Design is certainly good. The exclusion of other sailmakers is bad for sure. Many of the One Designs discussed above are produced in mass quantity and are all of very small size and frankly all of those sails are made overseas and out of cheap cloth etc. This is an offshore boat/One Design. As there will be no competition from other sailmakers North will be able to charge whatever they want and it wont be cheap. It will for sure keep people like me and I would imagine several others from recommending the boat or pushing to get customers into it...Why would I? Why would Quantum? Or any other sailmaker? On the J-44's mentioned above the the fleet sails are split up between North Doyle and Quantum and only used for very specific events. Even the NY-42's were split between sailmakers and outside of that specific event the boats and owners were able to choose what sailmaker they wanted to work with. In my over 30+ years in the business I have been very active in helping build very successful Local One Design fleets that have been very beneficial to both owners and sailmakers alike. It has been proven time and time again that all of the top sailmakers are capable of making a good sail or set of sails for just about any type of boat. Owners have their relationships and its absolutely shocking that they would put a restriction in like this that runs the real risk of limiting the potential sales force of this boat not to mention the real possibility of driving the costs up because they can. For the NYYC I can understand the decision to have all the sails alike and they probably got a deal and a half, but to limit sailmakers outside of that and lessen the possibility of developing local or even traveling fleets around the world just makes no sense. They should encourage the competition so the sails are the best they can be. As far as I know the sail package was not bid out or if it was someone on the inside had already made the decision. This sailmaker limitation does nothing to grow the sport which is super disappointing.

Your response is probably exactly why NYYC wanted only one sailmarker, and North has the inside track there. If there's multiple sailmakers then there is going to be big development program for the sails = expensive for the owners. Example : I know someone who was one of the first owners of a Melges 32. It was fun for about a year, then all he felt like he was doing was paying for sail development costs for brand X, and got sick and tired of being treated disrespectfully by one of the rock star sailmakers. So now he's got a casual club program on a cruising boat, spends no money on sails, and instead spends money on fuel for his new powerboat. So yeah, whine all you want, but it's sailmakers that are largely the problem with "growing the sport" (god I hate that term. What, is there a farmer with a seed that magically sprouts up new boat owners?) Best salesman a powerboat dealership has these days are sailmakers.

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Or..........they want to prevent an arms race and have the boats REALLY be the same ;)

 

That's what buttons are for

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2 hours ago, aA said:

yes, not that program, but a similar attempt with other players...

I don't think so - i'm fully invested in floating, depreciating assets....

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The class has been organized specifically to exclude pro sailors (Group 3).   Take your pick.....just about every other OD class from 24 to 52 feet goes way up and then way down because the owners get tired of paying for all the pro stuff.   It is a moot point that a Quantum or Doyle rep won't recommend the boat to his client......he wouldn't anyways because he can't sail on it and sail makers earn very little on sail commissions.  They earn their living on their daily rate sailing.   If the class also disallows OTW coaching and support boats while racing, it will be even better.

 

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3 hours ago, Great Red Shark said:

Quarter-mill+ get-in for a 37 foot dedicated racer you can't stand up in, needs 8 guys, only has 3 sails ?

ah....no thank you 

+1

No one is going to buy this besides NYYC.  No resale value (like most "race" boats) means it won't get a one design fleet anywhere besides NYYC.

Should have bought 20 J/111s and started a series with no pros and new sails once a year.  Sail contract to be bid out yearly. 

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I agree with all the comments that a single sailmaker stops the arms race and also lessens the urge on the part of some pros to tweak, stretch & optimize the boats to make their sails appear faster than they really are. Not that tweaking might not still occur but at least one motivation for it is gone.  Since no pros are allowed gone also is the motivation by some pros to tweak, stretch & optimize their boat so it's faster than some other pro's boat.

As for Melges getting involved it might be they perceived a ready made group of future M40 owners in the 37 class.

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4 hours ago, Annapolis 105er said:

I think the bigger news here is Melges, not North.  

Interesting that Melges is reinventing as a service organization, repping a non-pro boat they did not design and are not building, but are still branding as their own.  Huge change of business model for them.  

Interesting that NYYC made a point of going with designers, builders and class organizers that don't start with "J/" even though J has a much more successful track record designing, (contracting for the) building and growing Corinthian fleets.  

Is NYYC trying to support a diverse sailing industry, much like the military tries to spread contracts around?

Other than North/Southern, and perhaps Mills, would anyone have predicted the companies chosen to run with this program?

I love the idea but fear the inevitable change or addition of builders (with resulting differences between boats), Melges-ization of the rules (I give it one year before pros are allowed) and battle royal between NYYC and everyone else for control of the class   

NYYC should have kept complete control until after the 2019 Resolute Cup. 

I am pretty sure they have never gone with J-boats for anything (except for some junior boats)

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On 9/14/2017 at 10:06 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Or..........they want to prevent an arms race and have the boats REALLY be the same ;)

 

Exactly.

 

On the price, compare to the C&C 30.  Very similar all-in price for a more challenging, faster, bigger boat.

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They should specify: " FRITZ sails only" that will confuse people.

Actually they make a really nice sail....

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23 minutes ago, Kraftwerk said:

They should specify: " FRITZ sails only" that will confuse people.

Actually they make a really nice sail....

are you kidding me five races on a one design jib and the leech hooked inboard...like 5". The local north rep said it was designed in, when I said it wasn't that way when we first used it, then the comment changed to designed to have the 5" hook eventually...yeah sure! Those guys are so full of shit!

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I sail on a OD which used to have a strict one sailmaker policy

Problems

The quality and performance of the sails varied from one year to the next, and even from one sail to the next

Better sails were available at a lower price elsewhere

 

Eventually the class opened up to a restricted number of sailmakers 

The materials are restricted so we haven't seen an arms race or chequebook sailing

Mind you $250 000 would keep most of the class in sails for quite a few years to come!

 

 

 

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I would think that one source of potential boat sales is to clubs/syndicates that participate in the invitational cup, for pre-regatta training at home.

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On 9/14/2017 at 9:48 AM, John Baxter said:

The concept of One Design is certainly good. The exclusion of other sailmakers is bad for sure. Many of the One Designs discussed above are produced in mass quantity and are all of very small size and frankly all of those sails are made overseas and out of cheap cloth etc. This is an offshore boat/One Design. As there will be no competition from other sailmakers North will be able to charge whatever they want and it wont be cheap. It will for sure keep people like me and I would imagine several others from recommending the boat or pushing to get customers into it...Why would I? Why would Quantum? Or any other sailmaker? On the J-44's mentioned above the the fleet sails are split up between North Doyle and Quantum and only used for very specific events. Even the NY-42's were split between sailmakers and outside of that specific event the boats and owners were able to choose what sailmaker they wanted to work with. In my over 30+ years in the business I have been very active in helping build very successful Local One Design fleets that have been very beneficial to both owners and sailmakers alike. It has been proven time and time again that all of the top sailmakers are capable of making a good sail or set of sails for just about any type of boat. Owners have their relationships and its absolutely shocking that they would put a restriction in like this that runs the real risk of limiting the potential sales force of this boat not to mention the real possibility of driving the costs up because they can. For the NYYC I can understand the decision to have all the sails alike and they probably got a deal and a half, but to limit sailmakers outside of that and lessen the possibility of developing local or even traveling fleets around the world just makes no sense. They should encourage the competition so the sails are the best they can be. As far as I know the sail package was not bid out or if it was someone on the inside had already made the decision. This sailmaker limitation does nothing to grow the sport which is super disappointing.

A business model for a one design class based on a strategic relationship with a single sail maker (or a strategic relationship with one or two sailmakers) has some important merit , and is an idea that has been circulating for a while among some leaders in one design and in sailmaking.

In the past, there have been some classes using a single sail source (RS, Laser, IOD) but that has primarily been driven by cost motives, seeking to negotiate a single source discount, or in the case of Laser, a profit motive of getting a margin on sails. That is NOT what is happening here!

There is a different rationale driving the current discussions going on between contemporary SMOD One Designs and sailmakers. Kudos on Melges and NYYC being the first mover , but on reflection they were ideally placed to make the move. It is not a total surprise that they should do this first.  The success /failure of this project will be followed closely.

1. Successful one design classes in this era need sustained support and promotion,    Boat builders support their classes during the early growth years. The economics for the builder peak during the growth and rapidly wane as the class reaches critical mass.  J Boats has probably already done its largest single year of J70 sales. It will continue to grow and be profitable but when the class is largest, profits from building boats will have shrunk to a fraction of today. The economics for J Boats for supporting the J70 will be as attractive in 10 years time as they are now for the J24 and the J80. Sailmaking however will be selling more sails for J70s than they do now.

2.   Sailmakers goals are theoretically be closely aligned with class goals. Sailmakers gain directly from class activity. A well attended championship and active racing creates demand for sails.   However this alignment of interests is rarely leveraged because Sailmakers are naturally reluctant in multi-supplier classes to spend money which subsidizes their competitors sales.  This is also why builders in multi-builder classes do less to promote classes than SMOD builders.  

3.   Follow the money. The sailmaking gross margins are better than boat building. The SG & A is high because they spend to compete within a class.   High gross margins and lower SG&A is an intriguing potential source of resource for promoting the sport.

4.  There is strong demand for high quality amateur racing with an amateur ethos on and off the water. In multi- sailmaker classes, the historic marketing model for sailmakers is to promote their product by  winning regattas. Its expensive for the sailmaker and discouraging for the amateur.

So okay, if there are some good reasons for a JV between a class and a sailmaker....Why hasn't this been tried before in the US?....and if it has been tried, why did it fail?

1. Read John's post above. In the US market, all sailing is local.  OD classes have historically needed to get local traction. The sailor in San Diago looks around at what people are sailing in San Diego. SD doesnt know or care what the sailors at American Yacht Club in Rye are buying and vice versa. The "local influencers" were often sailmakers.   When AYC members bought a fleet of modern K6 sportboats, nobody told anyone in San Diego....and the K6 had an exclusive with Hyde Sails, so the sailmaking community certainly were not going to help promote the boat.

John's post is typical of many sailmakers. They will tell anyone who listens, that you need the support of the local sailmakers for a class to get local traction. That was true, even as recently as 10 years ago.

But times have changed.  Social media and online sailing communities have increased their local influence. The larger sailmakers are more coordinated than they were before and offer local presence on a national scale.

There are signs that local sailmakers are following class growth, not necessarily leading it. There are signs that classes with strong class level relationships with their sailmakers are doing interesting things.

I dont know whether we have reached an inflection point yet. It is hard to tell whether local sailmaker support was a catalyst that helped the J70 or if the J70 led and the local sailmakers followed. Did the Marblehead sailors buy J70s because Jud bought AFRICA and told his friends it was a great boat....or did Jud get into the J70 because the class was growing like a weed?  Bit of both?

Melges is North, so a model which allows them to support the class through a full life cycle must be very interesting to them. The NYYC and the high end market that this boat aims for, might feel they can reach the audience without the help of all the local Non_North lofts.  A 37' OD boat with no class 3 is a different enough proposition that it will be communicated. There are some who simply do not want to sail a boat that size without a pro (who is going to be my boat captain?)  and theer are some who are going to see it as compelling.

I think the bigger risk here is no class 3 because those with $250k to throw at their toys are often too busy to look after the toy themselves. I also think they risk seeing the re-emergence of the professional amateur (remember the Melges 32 amateurs?)

  But I like the project...its bold..its different...it is trying to shake things up...and it is a hellva attractive looking boat.

It is not going to be hard to find crew. I would find the invitation to crew on an all amateur boat in an all amateur fleet to be very attractive.  If you were invited to sail on one of these ...would it tempt you? Would the absence of pros make it just a little bit more empowering?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

There are some who simply do not want to sail a boat that size without a pro (who is going to be my boat captain?)  and theer are some who are going to see it as compelling.

I think the bigger risk here is no class 3 because those with $250k to throw at their toys are often too busy to look after the toy themselves. I also think they risk seeing the re-emergence of the professional amateur (remember the Melges 32 amateurs?)

It is not going to be hard to find crew. I would find the invitation to crew on an all amateur boat in an all amateur fleet to be very attractive.  If you were invited to sail on one of these ...would it tempt you? Would the absence of pros make it just a little bit more empowering?

I should think that the NYYC have seen the success of the Invitational Cup and thought to themselves that they want more of that type of racing. Keep the pros out. Race against your peers.

And there's nothing to stop an owner having a dedicated boat captain/paid hand to sort out all repairs and look after the boat. He just can't race with you.

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

 

It is not going to be hard to find crew. I would find the invitation to crew on an all amateur boat in an all amateur fleet to be very attractive.  If you were invited to sail on one of these ...would it tempt you? Would the absence of pros make it just a little bit more empowering?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hell, I'd line up....

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38 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

I should think that the NYYC have seen the success of the Invitational Cup and thought to themselves that they want more of that type of racing. Keep the pros out. Race against your peers.

And there's nothing to stop an owner having a dedicated boat captain/paid hand to sort out all repairs and look after the boat. He just can't race with you.

Agreed. Good points.

Overall I get why they do this. I think my point was that I think the Class 1 decision was at least as big if not bigger a decision than the single sailmaker decision. Some of the owner audience might worry that they will miss their tactician more than their sailmaker.

Will Phil Lotz miss Luke more than he misses his Doyle salesman? 

But when Phil and others contemplated this decision, they may have remembered they have friends they used to sail with who are really competent amateur tacticians. As long as everyone has amateurs...why not?  For example, in Phil's case, his wife Wendy is pretty damn smart when it comes to positioning a boat on a race course (This I know because she has out positioned me a few times) and his NYYC Invitational team might have been the most fun some of these owners had all year.

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