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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pearson-Ariel-/162674010642?hash=item25e0206a12:g:tFMAAOSwpDBZjKUf&vxp=mtr

So last year I raced this boat and came in last, this year we did much better.  This is my first boat, but she's gotta go so can get something a little racier (which would be anything).  

Any suggestions for my next boat, I'd like to spend around 15k.  The family isn't into sailing so not too worried about creature comforts, light air performance a big plus,  I really like Hobie33's  what is similar?  or do i just buy an old J boat of some sort?  Sailing is in Chesapeake Bay.  Racing was the smartest thing I could have done to become a better sailor, its really been enjoyable. 

 

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If you're into improving your skills, rather than focusing on a boat see what type of fleets are in your area.  Is there any OD fleet?  If so, that would be the first place to start.

Next, is there a fleet or Div comprised mainly of one type of boat - say J/29's.  Finally, if you can't find that see if there is a PHRF div with a small rating spread.  In PNW, there used to be the Performance 30 class which covered boats in about the 120-135 range IIRC - this band included boats like Santana 30/30, Olson 911, Hotfoot 31 and several others.  They all had roughly similar performance characteristics,

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11 minutes ago, Ajax said:

The J/30 would be a great choice if the OP cared about cruising comforts.  Nicely equipped j/30's seem to go for a fair bit more than $14k.  Definitely worth putting on the list, but I suspect at that price the sail inventory is not in the best of condition.  Also, IMO the J/30 is more of a heavy air than light air boat.

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Racing with 3 is pretty short for a 30' - even my 26' QT had 4 crew.

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If you're looking at that small a crew I'd go with something in the 20-25 foot range. Most of the performance-oriented 30 footers need a pretty big team to perform well, even in the light stuff. I race a cheap(ly made) 25 footer with 4-5 per night (including me (and we race spinnaker)), and if I had your budget a few I'd consider would be the S2 6.9 and 7.9, Evelyn 25 (yes, I like Evelyns, especially as light air boats), and of course the J/22 and 24, which despite their occasional flaws outside of OD racing benefit hugely from a strong part/sail supply. There are many more designs out there. $15K can get you a NICE 25 footer.

I agree with 12 Metre, find the fleet you're going to race in and pick something that fits the rating band/predominant boat/OD class well.

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The part of the budget that "buys" the boat is often the cheapest part....everything on a 30-33 footer is more expensive than on a 20-25 footer.  If you're making the jump to spinnaker, on most small boats you're really talking a crew of 4, maybe 5.  On a 30-33 footer, your talking 6-8, as weight on the rail matters...

So I agree with Sisu...you want to stay in the less than or equal to 25 foot range.  Find a nice boat with the best sails.  Save some money for a new sail.  Find one or two more crew.  The jump to a Hobie 33 is likely a couple more years off...

20-30 grand a year is not an unreasonable budget for a 33 footer trying to be competitive in a Spin Fleet.  Probably could be done for 5-8 grand a year...(Thats less than one new sail a year)

5-8 grand a year is not an unreasonable budget for a 25 footer trying to be competitive in a Spin Fleet.  Probably could be done for 1-2 grand a year...again, less than one new sail a year.

If you can find one, Santana 525s are known for their light air ability, particularly upwind...

What 25 foot +/- boats comprise the spin fleet where you race?  Fastest way to know if you are improving, is if there is another boat (or 2 or 3) in the fleet that is the same as yours....

 

 

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Crash and Sisu (and all), you are very helpful and make valid points, thanks for your input. 

Getting a lot of interest on my Ariel that i posted above, taking a guy out for a test drive in an hour, so that is encouraging. As a first boat and never sailing before,  buying the ariel  was a good choice but excited to be looking for my next boat. 

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I have an S2 9.1 for sale. Easy to get up to speed sails to her rating, looking for a good home 

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In the 30' range, J 29, J 30, Pearson Flyer, Capri 30 (a real light air killer), S2 9.1 (but not at $15K)

All of the above are 30+ years old and are likely to have wet to soggy cored decks.

25' range, Capri 25, B-25, s27.9  (not a light air boat)

 

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With regards to crew numbers, there is a difference between want and need.

Most 30 footers sail with 6 or more, but at least 2 are mainly movable ballast.

Many years ago I used to race on a Peterson 35 and we often sailed with 4.  Not optimal - we were busy - but it mostly worked.  We won a light air regatta on a 32 footer with Asymms and only 3 up.  There was also the modified Martin 241 where the skipper demanded only 3 crew and we won everything in sight locally over a 2-3 year span.  Heavy air, light air, it didn't matter.

But I do agree 30 ft is likely too much boat for 3 crew especially if they are relatively novice.  Although it could be a good way to train a crew, and they will never be bored - just don't expect to collect much in the way of pickle dishes.  While limiting yourself to 3 crew pretty much limits you to something in the 25 foot range, the upside is that $15k could buy you a very well equipped boat.

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4 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

In the 30' range, J 29, J 30, Pearson Flyer, Capri 30 (a real light air killer), S2 9.1 (but not at $15K)

All of the above are 30+ years old and are likely to have wet to soggy cored decks.

25' range, Capri 25, B-25, s27.9  (not a light air boat)

 

Dunno, I sold my 9.1 with freshly recored decks (forward of the cockpit, there was still some work to do on the cockpit floor and under the primaries) for less than 10k...

One of the most successful boats on the bay in PHRF B was "Still A Gorilla"  an S2 9.1.  We did pretty good with ours down in the Southern Bay as well.  Its a great all-rounder.  But you'd need a pretty experienced crew to race with 3 or 4 and still place (we did that too, got a 3rd in Frostbite racing spin with only 3 and 4 crew for the 5 races.  But we were all experienced, and had all been racing the boat for 5 years.  Had a different helmsman for each race too!  But we were never in contention for 1st overall either, those guys (fully crewed) slowly extended away from us on every race....

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Dunno, I sold my 9.1 with freshly recored decks (forward of the cockpit, there was still some work to do on the cockpit floor and under the primaries) for less than 10k...

One of the most successful boats on the bay in PHRF B was "Still A Gorilla"  an S2 9.1.  We did pretty good with ours down in the Southern Bay as well.  Its a great all-rounder.  But you'd need a pretty experienced crew to race with 3 or 4 and still place (we did that too, got a 3rd in Frostbite racing spin with only 3 and 4 crew for the 5 races.  But we were all experienced, and had all been racing the boat for 5 years.  Had a different helmsman for each race too!  But we were never in contention for 1st overall either, those guys (fully crewed) slowly extended away from us on every race....

Not sure what the "dunno" is about.  S2 9.1 is one of the great all around PHRF/MORC boats from the early 80s.  I owned a Pearson Flyer for 15+ years.  We often tangled with a well sailed 9.1.  Depending on any number of variables we probably split our encounters close to 50/50.  Same thing with a J 30 although honesty requires that I admit he often got the better of me.  If I could find a stiff, recored 9.1 at a good price I might well get back into th game.  My old Flyer is now on its 4th owner and still winning.

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    We won our class in a Pearson Flyer with a stateside skipper at St Thomas Rolex one year. For such an awkward looking boat, it sure was a sleeper. A couple of years later a local hotshot bought one and started racing with good success in the VI fleet. The J-29's were becoming the weapon of choice down there at the time and the Flyer owner looked at the evolution of the J-29 from the J-30 which was basically the same hull with 6" less freeboard and a better deck/cockpit for racing. The whole j-29 fleet was hauled for the summer trying to dry out waterlogged hulls and the Flyer guy hauled out next to them and scribed a Magic Marker line 6" down from the sheer and took a SkilSaw to it. Chopped the whole deck right off! They flipped the deck and remaining 6" of hull over onto sawhorses and chiseled off the hull deck flange and set the aluminum toerails aside. I had my cruising boat hauled just down the row and went over and asked what his thinking was. He asked me to imagine standing on the foredeck of a race boat beating into a 20 knot tradewind blow while holding up a 4x4' sheet of plywood. I said it was probably not possible. He then pointed to the 6" x 32' strip of topside laying on the ground that they had just chopped off and said that was the same area! They scribed down the bulkheads and refit the deck and put everything back together in a surprisingly short time. The boat had been named 'Cold Beer' and after the chop job we called it 'Flat Beer'. Won more races that ever and actually looked pretty good with the lower sheerline. 

    Contest to name the Skipper...

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10 hours ago, Ajax said:
Quote

The J/30 would be a great choice if the OP cared about cruising comforts.  Nicely equipped j/30's seem to go for a fair bit more than $14k.  Definitely worth putting on the list, but I suspect at that price the sail inventory is not in the best of condition.  Also, IMO the J/30 is more of a heavy air than light air boat.

Yeah I read somewhere a Wisc. sailmaker referred to the J 30 as under rigged.

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56 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Not sure what the "dunno" is about.  S2 9.1 is one of the great all around PHRF/MORC boats from the early 80s.  I owned a Pearson Flyer for 15+ years.  We often tangled with a well sailed 9.1.  Depending on any number of variables we probably split our encounters close to 50/50.  Same thing with a J 30 although honesty requires that I admit he often got the better of me.  If I could find a stiff, recored 9.1 at a good price I might well get back into th game.  My old Flyer is now on its 4th owner and still winning.

The "dunno" was that I think you can get a decent 9.1 for under 15k, where as I thought you'd implied you couldn't...

Apologies if I got that wrong!

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23 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

    We won our class in a Pearson Flyer with a stateside skipper at St Thomas Rolex one year. For such an awkward looking boat, it sure was a sleeper. A couple of years later a local hotshot bought one and started racing with good success in the VI fleet. The J-29's were becoming the weapon of choice down there at the time and the Flyer owner looked at the evolution of the J-29 from the J-30 which was basically the same hull with 6" less freeboard and a better deck/cockpit for racing. The whole j-29 fleet was hauled for the summer trying to dry out waterlogged hulls and the Flyer guy hauled out next to them and scribed a Magic Marker line 6" down from the sheer and took a SkilSaw to it. Chopped the whole deck right off! They flipped the deck and remaining 6" of hull over onto sawhorses and chiseled off the hull deck flange and set the aluminum toerails aside. I had my cruising boat hauled just down the row and went over and asked what his thinking was. He asked me to imagine standing on the foredeck of a race boat beating into a 20 knot tradewind blow while holding up a 4x4' sheet of plywood. I said it was probably not possible. He then pointed to the 6" x 32' strip of topside laying on the ground that they had just chopped off and said that was the same area! They scribed down the bulkheads and refit the deck and put everything back together in a surprisingly short time. The boat had been named 'Cold Beer' and after the chop job we called it 'Flat Beer'. Won more races that ever and actually looked pretty good with the lower sheerline. 

    Contest to name the Skipper...

I'd bet a cut down Flyer would be a weapon! Kinda like a "razee" Frigate! Though I've never seen one cut down, it had to have looked better!

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1 hour ago, jerseyguy said:

Not sure what the "dunno" is about.  S2 9.1 is one of the great all around PHRF/MORC boats from the early 80s.  I owned a Pearson Flyer for 15+ years.  We often tangled with a well sailed 9.1.  Depending on any number of variables we probably split our encounters close to 50/50.  Same thing with a J 30 although honesty requires that I admit he often got the better of me.  If I could find a stiff, recored 9.1 at a good price I might well get back into th game.  My old Flyer is now on its 4th owner and still winning.

Our fleet was the same. Had a well sail J-29, a well sailed Flyer, a well sailed J-30, and I'd have to say they all probably beat me more than 50% of the time. Good times!

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

    We won our class in a Pearson Flyer with a stateside skipper at St Thomas Rolex one year. For such an awkward looking boat, it sure was a sleeper. A couple of years later a local hotshot bought one and started racing with good success in the VI fleet. The J-29's were becoming the weapon of choice down there at the time and the Flyer owner looked at the evolution of the J-29 from the J-30 which was basically the same hull with 6" less freeboard and a better deck/cockpit for racing. The whole j-29 fleet was hauled for the summer trying to dry out waterlogged hulls and the Flyer guy hauled out next to them and scribed a Magic Marker line 6" down from the sheer and took a SkilSaw to it. Chopped the whole deck right off! They flipped the deck and remaining 6" of hull over onto sawhorses and chiseled off the hull deck flange and set the aluminum toerails aside. I had my cruising boat hauled just down the row and went over and asked what his thinking was. He asked me to imagine standing on the foredeck of a race boat beating into a 20 knot tradewind blow while holding up a 4x4' sheet of plywood. I said it was probably not possible. He then pointed to the 6" x 32' strip of topside laying on the ground that they had just chopped off and said that was the same area! They scribed down the bulkheads and refit the deck and put everything back together in a surprisingly short time. The boat had been named 'Cold Beer' and after the chop job we called it 'Flat Beer'. Won more races that ever and actually looked pretty good with the lower sheerline. 

    Contest to name the Skipper...

Rudy Thompson owned Cold Beer

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

The "dunno" was that I think you can get a decent 9.1 for under 15k, where as I thought you'd implied you couldn't...

Apologies if I got that wrong!

I would be very surprised if a well-sorted 9.1 could be had for $15K +/-.  But I'm wrong about so many things.

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11 hours ago, Caferacer59 said:

one other consideration is i only race with 2 or 3 crew max - I've only done non spin, but would like that to change but crew is small.  

Evelyn 26.  Can race jib and main easy with a small crew.  Wicked fast in the light stuff.

I know of one looking for a new home.

--Matt

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jersey guy takes it in one round! Rudy was a real inspiration. Did you ever hear his story about how the USVI got its Olympic status?  I'll have to write down that little tale for you guys sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

jersey guy takes it in one round! Rudy was a real inspiration. Did you ever hear his story about how the USVI got its Olympic status?  I'll have to write down that little tale for you guys sometimes.

Thank you, thank you.  Awaiting my prize!

I owned a Flyer for close to 15 years.  Pearson had a newsletter that it sent out to Flyer owners. That might be where I first learned abut "Cold Beer" and Rudy.  For some reason the name just stuck in my head. Amazing I could pull it back out after all these years.

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I'll send you a flat cold beer, OK?

     Rudy was one of the original racing yachtsmen down in the USVI. A real gentleman and always trying to help up and coming sailors. His son Chris  and Grandson Ty have certainly carried on the tradition. The West Indies racing rule may have been more forgiving of the radical 'chop job' that the Thompsons did on the Flyer but the boat continued its winning ways with later skippers too. 

Rudy Thompson - St. Thomas USVI

 

   I found and old post here on SA in which I said that the cut down on the topsides was 9 inches instead of 6. I usually exaggerate the other way!

 

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The Evelyn 25 seems like a good possibility for my entree into a "racier boat". Couple within a few hundred miles of me.   Seems like there is a 25 a 25.5 and 26. With drafts between 4 and 6. Much prefer 4.  

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All other things being equal, if you're racing with less than a full crew, you want the deepest draft boat you can get, that can still get in and out of the slip

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4 hours ago, Caferacer59 said:

The Evelyn 25 seems like a good possibility for my entree into a "racier boat". Couple within a few hundred miles of me.   Seems like there is a 25 a 25.5 and 26. With drafts between 4 and 6. Much prefer 4.  

This 26 has a fixed keel with a 4.5' draft.  This one is is excellent mechanical shape with very good sails.  PM if you want more info.

--Matt

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On 9/15/2017 at 11:42 AM, Caferacer59 said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pearson-Ariel-/162674010642?hash=item25e0206a12:g:tFMAAOSwpDBZjKUf&vxp=mtr

So last year I raced this boat and came in last, this year we did much better.  This is my first boat, but she's gotta go so can get something a little racier (which would be anything).  

Any suggestions for my next boat, I'd like to spend around 15k.  The family isn't into sailing so not too worried about creature comforts, light air performance a big plus,  I really like Hobie33's  what is similar?  or do i just buy an old J boat of some sort?  Sailing is in Chesapeake Bay.  Racing was the smartest thing I could have done to become a better sailor, its really been enjoyable.

 

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On 9/15/2017 at 11:51 PM, egon said:

Evelyn 26.  Can race jib and main easy with a small crew.  Wicked fast in the light stuff.

I know of one looking for a new home.

--Matt

Bingo, fast in the light stuff, minimal draft, the sails aren't too big and expensive, (the evelyn 32 genoa is huge and not cheap), 

frac rig keeps it tame with a short crew in breeze and it's an Evelyn.

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Reasons not to sell on Ebay.  So surprisingly (to me) my little pearson ariel got a ton of interest and some guy bought it and then called me to say he will be flying up Friday to sail it down starting Saturday to Louisiana (from Baltimore!).  Needless to say that is utterly ridiculous.  His plan was Rimas like to say the least, I politely let him know that single handing my Ariel to Louisiana had a about a 1% chance of success as currently outfitted.  I am not Jean Mondieu.  He was bummed that I insisted on sending his deposit back.    

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he didn't give you the deposit with a cashier's check did he?

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On 9/15/2017 at 11:14 PM, jerseyguy said:

I would be very surprised if a well-sorted 9.1 could be had for $15K +/-.  But I'm wrong about so many things.

Not for nothing but this one is in pretty good shape with some room for a new sail or 2.

 

PM me if your interested

 

Matt

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On 9/15/2017 at 11:42 AM, Caferacer59 said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pearson-Ariel-/162674010642?hash=item25e0206a12:g:tFMAAOSwpDBZjKUf&vxp=mtr

So last year I raced this boat and came in last, this year we did much better.  This is my first boat, but she's gotta go so can get something a little racier (which would be anything).  

Any suggestions for my next boat, I'd like to spend around 15k.  The family isn't into sailing so not too worried about creature comforts, light air performance a big plus,  I really like Hobie33's  what is similar?  or do i just buy an old J boat of some sort?  Sailing is in Chesapeake Bay.  Racing was the smartest thing I could have done to become a better sailor, its really been enjoyable. 

 

Get a J22.

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Looking forward to selling the Ariel and choosing the next boat carefully.  I am convinced that with the suggestions from here and keeping my eyes open I'll do well.  Thanks for the suggestions and advice.  I am almost certain to keep in the 25 foot range as it makes sense for my crew size and I am happy with my perfect little protected slip where i keep my current vessel. The boat above, J 22/24's and Evelyn's have all been enjoyable to read up on.  The reality check on larger boats like the hobie 33 etc was needed.  Thanks 

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Cafe,

 

If you are looking for a low maintenance, easy to sail but sportier and faster, 3 person boat.  Should you at least take a look at some of the smaller sport boats?

A used Viper 640  from 6-10 years can sometimes be found, ready to race for $15+/-.  www.viper640.org 

They have gotten some traction on Chesapeake so you can choose between some local PHRF racing and attending some One Design events. The advantage of one design is a it is a good way to get up to speed and other owners will be very helpful. 

The J22 also makes a good choice in that regard. I had a J22 before the Viper and enjoyed it a lot. Easy for three people to sail. Costs are reasonable and everything is of a size that it is fun rather than a chore.  The Viper was a bit more fun in PHRF because we were a giant slayer keeping up with boats bigger than us.

Thriving One Design classes are much easier to buy and sell.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Cafe,

 

If you are looking for a low maintenance, easy to sail but sportier and faster, 3 person boat.  Should you at least take a look at some of the smaller sport boats?

A used Viper 640  from 6-10 years can sometimes be found, ready to race for $15+/-.  www.viper640.org 

They have gotten some traction on Chesapeake so you can choose between some local PHRF racing and attending some One Design events. The advantage of one design is a it is a good way to get up to speed and other owners will be very helpful. 

The J22 also makes a good choice in that regard. I had a J22 before the Viper and enjoyed it a lot. Easy for three people to sail. Costs are reasonable and everything is of a size that it is fun rather than a chore.  The Viper was a bit more fun in PHRF because we were a giant slayer keeping up with boats bigger than us.

Thriving One Design classes are much easier to buy and sell.

 

 

This - and that they are also a much better platform than PHRF is - to learn to sail well. You always have an equal barometer to measure yourself against.

The J22 can be both ODed and PHRFed in the Chesapeake.  If you kept the boat in Annapolis you could find large fleets to sail with year round. 

No vested interest as I am not an owner. I am a Laser and multihull kinda guy, but if I wanted a 3 person boats to learn to sail really well on and be able to sail year round in all kind of venues, it would be a J22 without question. There is nothing else that come anywhere close IMHO.

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Thanks Wess, appreciate your insights.  As far as multi hulls, I am looking forward to next weekend, going out with some friends on a Gemini 35 for the weekend over to St. Michael's and maybe up to Rock Hall.  It's good company on this trip  and rare when I sail on anything civilized with creature comforts.   The skipper is the son in law of the guy who created the Gemini company.  His wife still runs the company but unfortunately the boats are no longer produced here on the Bay.  

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Three more pieces of advice when buying a sail boat to race with a budget.

1.  Head towards the smaller end of your size range.  The more you race, the more perfectionist you will become. The larger the boat the more time (and money) you will spend obtaining perfection. You want to spend your time racing and you not working on the boat. A fast race boat takes a lot more prep than a day sailor. You might not be fussy now, but we can tell you are starting to get bitten by the bug, so trust us when we tell you that someday soon you will start to care about stuff like fair foils, non stretch halyards and rig tension.  Its fun. Its more fun if the task is manageable and affordable (See #2 below)

2. Spend more now and less on the annual budget.  Look for a boat/ class where the annual budget is easy to afford. It will always be more than you planned. You will want to replace stuff next year, you might get hit or you might hit something.  Own a boat where the budget doesnt diminish the fun. I like that whatever goes wrong with my boat, I can write a check without drama.  Once you have found the boat/class.....then be cool about spending a bit more than you intended for a good specimen of that class. You wont regret having a really nice boat.   So its better to spend $20k on a smaller boat that can be raced to a high standard on a budget of $3k a year, than spending $15 on a boat that costs $7k a year to run.

More later....

MK   

 

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