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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
DarkHorse

Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

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^^^^We shared an anchorage with Ninth Charm for a while. Not only did it sail around the world but it sailed a lotta miles around its anchor with that wopping great Wing mast pinned at max rotation in an attempt to stall it.

Wouldn't wish that on anyone. I'm pretty sure they would make different decisions as to the boat type in hindsight after conversations with them.

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15 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

This thread is getting very circular and needs some drift. My girlfriend Aurrette says to me you don't need a cat ..you have all the pussy you need plus some. So I'm sticking with my quick but bulletproof mono.

jack_sparrows girl friend.jpg

Yesterday I told my wife we should by a hobie cat.
Her answer: name her Sex Kitten.

I love my wife:-)

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Yesterday I told my wife we should by a hobie cat.
Her answer: name her Sex Kitten.

I love my wife:-)

I had one that my wife named: "Get Wet" :)

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That is quite sensible - would fit in a standard berth. Might be a little tippy though. 

4 hours ago, olsurfer said:

Maybe not the world by storm, but they control all trade routes in this dumb*ss's backyard!

102_1661 (1000x750).jpg

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6 hours ago, olsurfer said:

Maybe not the world by storm, but they control all trade routes in this dumb*ss's backyard!

102_1661 (1000x750).jpg

Both of those boats seem familiar. What's the story Olsurfer? I wouldn't mind seeing a photo of the one in the foreground sailing.

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Both of those boats seem familiar.  I wouldn't mind seeing a photo of the one in the foreground sailing.

You sure can build one damn fine boat!  I'll take that photo if you're in it!

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From a guy who loves multi's and who has raced and cruised for over 50 years and many times around the orange and to places many fear to tread...maybe his opinion might answer the OP's question amoungst all the fanboy static from either pursuasion?

 

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

From a guy who loves multi's and who has raced and cruised for over 50 years and many times around the orange and to places many fear to tread...maybe his opinion might answer the OP's question amoungst all the fanboy static from either pursuasion?

 

Good find Jack!  I think Fatty makes a lot of sense and correctly identifies the issues.  #1 Seamanship matters-too many people cross oceans with no real clue about what they should know and most often they get away with it which just perpetuates the belief that 'anyone' can do it.  #2 50'+ cats have huge loads and aren't for the faint-hearted (how big a monohull would you have to have to have an equivalent righting moment of the average 50 foot cat?)

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^^^ Veeger I am not too sure about his fixation with drogues though. Maybe in a smaller boat. The loads involved on bigger boats when deploying are very fuckin scary. Most boats don't even have the hardware to hang on to them. 

When Peter Blake & Knox Johnston picked up the Jules Verne Trophy in 1994 as co-skipper of ENZA the 92' cat, when approaching the finish in a blow they tried slowing her down by streaming shit off the back including a 100 lb+ anchor and chain. The anchor just skipped along the surface.

PS.I would also be fucked putting up a trysail (like he suggests) in a blow and prefer a 4th reef properly reinforced.

 

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I towed a drogue several times on my old Kantola 44 trimaran, always off the stern. We carried a cone shaped drogue 4 feet in diameter (classic sea anchor style) which was only used once, in 45-50 knots and big seas with no sail up heading downwind and a second "milk create" with four point bridle used downwind in 25-30 knots (double reefed and #4) with 10-12 foot following seas just to slow down a couple of knots and help the autopilot hold course.  The little milk create on 150' rode would stop all the snake wake action and the auto wouldn't have to work so hard.

 

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I had four foot web straps on the create, then 150 feet of 1/2 inch nylon (44 foot 9,000 pound trimaran). The create functions as a vortex generator and is more drag than a tire and less likely to skip across the surface; it's easier to retrieve than a traditional sea anchor. Also the rode stows neatly in the create when it's not in use.  

As soon as the slack is taken out of the line the stern just snaps into line and stays there, lets the auto pilot barely have to work. It would slow us down two or three knots as I usually wanted to keep below 10 knots downhill in big seas so I didn't plow into the next wave. We were just cruising with wife and two young (4 and 8 year old) kids, not looking for speed records.

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Jack, Fatty's whole perspective is with smaller boats and that's part of his objection to the larger cats--they ain't small.  Drogues and parachute anchors have their downsides but when you just need to sleep (or drowse in a semi-comatose state), they do have their place.  I would be quite surprised if Fatty's trysail wasn't already on a separate track and ready to go as well.  Dragging one out of the lazarette in a gale about the time you're thinking you need it, isn't gonna be much fun....   Such preparations and equipment were standard best practices back in the day.  Part of the problem is that most boats out of the showroom aren't set up that way and it's not convenient to do so either.  Fatty is old school and so far it's kept him in good stead.

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On 10/5/2017 at 8:35 PM, munt said:

Where is your backyard and when are you going to unleash that beautiful trinado?

She has new 'fishnets', new 'rags' by Randy and ready to go to the dance. I can only hope, after her being away from the left coast, she can make some new friends out on the bay! Life can be tough on a 'one off ' in a bay full of F boats and Corsairs.

102_1663 (800x600).jpg

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That is one of the most beautiful boats...  where is this bay of which you speak?  And on a slightly different topic, does anybody know anything about the proa I just saw sailing out of channel islands harbor?

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On 10/4/2017 at 2:41 PM, jack_sparrow said:

This thread is getting very circular and needs some drift. My girlfriend Aurrette says to me you don't need a cat ..you have all the pussy you need plus some. So I'm sticking with my quick but bulletproof mono.

jack_sparrows girl friend.jpg

Option 1: better surgeon who can sew neatly

Option 2: take photo from higher angles

Option 3: go Natural, and spend the implant money on boats instead

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So go multi to avoid mono companionway photo angles and  totally natural ..aka timber and spend more time and money keeping it and some saggy tits going???..nah I will stick with everything as is thanks.

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HFC:

Found 3 things wrong with selfie then went and jerked off to the selfie...

in a multi

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20 hours ago, munt said:

That is one of the most beautiful boats...  where is this bay of which you speak?

She used to live up in the PNW and now she hangs in SF Bay.

Trinado-Humdinger-home.jpg

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1 hour ago, olsurfer said:

She used to live up in the PNW and now she hangs in SF Bay.

Trinado-Humdinger-home.jpg

Beautiful little trimaran...

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2 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

After touring the Annapolis Boat Show docks I would say that multihulls have taken the world by storm. 

Anything good this year?

 

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5 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

After touring the Annapolis Boat Show docks I would say that multihulls have taken the world by storm. 

Multis???...They were the show docks...easy mistake to make.

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

Anything good this year?

 

Didn't go on any multi's but the HH66 looked interesting, I still like the Outbound 46. 

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HH66 is a lot of boat. Had a washer/dryer onboard and a full electric keyboard built in. The 55 is more sensible and plenty of boat for most people.

I prefer the forward helm of the HH's though after a tour on a Chris a White Atlantic 57 last week I have to say their implementation is better. Downside to that particular boat is the bottom galley and lack of outdoor saloon space.

Overall the Outremer 5X/51 is a very nice blend of comfort and performance. Pricing is far more reasonable than the HH's but they do use lesser interior materials.

I wish both HH and Outremer had their 48' models at the show.

Regardless my concern with all these multis is motion underway, as unlike the performance multis I sail these don't fly a hull 95% of the time. Monoslugs may be slow but they are cheaper to berth, a little easier to maintain (half the systems, half the wetted area to paint etc.) and don't take each wave twice while at sea. The multi is far more cruisy and live aboard friendly...

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I was watching the last few of these  Sailing Great Circle  (Lagoon 52S).  I noted a LOT of multihulls in this and Ep 50.  I'd say they ARE taking the world by storm

 

 

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

I was watching the last few of these  Sailing Great Circle  (Lagoon 52S).  I noted a LOT of multihulls in this and Ep 50.  I'd say they ARE taking the world by storm

 

Skip to the sailing part - a casual 7.1 to ten knots: https://youtu.be/m49UPfyuoQg?t=8m18

Santorini_Crete.jpg.a2b88b65fe7c77e40586935055ed969a.jpg

And then motoring...  casual.

Santorini_Crete2.thumb.jpg.03e5451a4517d7e0eb5b086be87752ec.jpg

Sailing again, at 8.4 knots (12:37):

Santorini_Crete3.jpg.9e0b68883bc81d825bc6676676fad0ae.jpg

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Nope, not a speedster and sort of a nice motorsailer kind of thing.  But, after all, that IS exactly how most cruisers these days do their 'cruising'.  Some of their sailing was also done jib only.  I looked at some of the Lagoon specs for their 40-52'ers.  80 gallons of water capacity?  You really do need a water maker to spend any amount of time aboard... an they were having water maker issues....   Even my 38' weekender has 80 gallons.....

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7.1 knots in 20 TWS at 137 AWA could only be described as taking the world by storm relatively slowly. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 4:38 AM, Veeger said:

Nope, not a speedster and sort of a nice motorsailer kind of thing.  But, after all, that IS exactly how most cruisers these days do their 'cruising'.  Some of their sailing was also done jib only.  I looked at some of the Lagoon specs for their 40-52'ers.  80 gallons of water capacity?  You really do need a water maker to spend any amount of time aboard... an they were having water maker issues....   Even my 38' weekender has 80 gallons.....

80 gallons, that's 300 litres, on a basis of 10 litres per day per person, that's 15 days for a couple or a week for 4 people. Ok if you treat the water as if you were at home that's one day for 2, but may be you aren't supposed to have 15 minutes showers on a boat.

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

80 gallons, that's 300 litres, on a basis of 10 litres per day per person, that's 15 days for a couple or a week for 4 people. Ok if you treat the water as if you were at home that's one day for 2, but may be you aren't supposed to have 15 minutes showers on a boat.

Yes, that's the way the 'math' works, but it isn't the way real life works.  There's the last (gallon or more) that isn't jumpable from EACH tank.  Many tanks aren't cross connected so when the galley runs dry but the other side still has 20 gallons, well,  THAT ain't gonna fly with the Admiral.  And once you have more than 2 people, SOMEONE is going to use just a wee bit more than their allotted ration.  Of course, we ALWAYS manage to find a water source exactly on the day the very last gallon is consumed, right???  Sorry, 80 gallons doesn't cut it on a 3 or 4 stateroom cruising boat....

And then there are folks like me with a freshwater head... which the Admiral will never give up at this point.  (I do have alternate seawater  plumbing so if strict rationing is needed we won't have to resort to a bucket)

I also won't get started on '20 gallon' tanks that really hold 18 and some change, or '30 gallon' tanks that hold 28 and some change.....

Of course, I really needn't respond to the 15 minute shower comment, because that is not an issue--but you might consider too, the volume of water between the hot water tank and the shower head or galley faucet that guarantees waste on on so many boats.  All these things contribute to much greater actual consumption irrespective of generally accepted conservation routines.

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My wife and I really liked the Balance 451 that was at the show. It seemed like a pretty reasonable mix of performance and space. I just noticed that it's underwing clearance is pretty low, and it only has 90gal of water though. Also the wife really liked the Neel 45.

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

Yes, that's the way the 'math' works, but it isn't the way real life works.  There's the last (gallon or more) that isn't jumpable from EACH tank.  Many tanks aren't cross connected so when the galley runs dry but the other side still has 20 gallons, well,  THAT ain't gonna fly with the Admiral.  And once you have more than 2 people, SOMEONE is going to use just a wee bit more than their allotted ration.  Of course, we ALWAYS manage to find a water source exactly on the day the very last gallon is consumed, right???  Sorry, 80 gallons doesn't cut it on a 3 or 4 stateroom cruising boat....

And then there are folks like me with a freshwater head... which the Admiral will never give up at this point.  (I do have alternate seawater  plumbing so if strict rationing is needed we won't have to resort to a bucket)

I also won't get started on '20 gallon' tanks that really hold 18 and some change, or '30 gallon' tanks that hold 28 and some change.....

Of course, I really needn't respond to the 15 minute shower comment, because that is not an issue--but you might consider too, the volume of water between the hot water tank and the shower head or galley faucet that guarantees waste on on so many boats.  All these things contribute to much greater actual consumption irrespective of generally accepted conservation routines.

The freshwater head is really wasteful, I hadn't realised that some were doing this. That must dry your tank quickly. Most people stop in a marina at least once a week so would be OK with 300l and if not, if you start carrying say 1000l of water, that's 10% of the boat weight, that's an awful lot, even 500l is a lot, if you can afford a 40 ft catamaran, presumably you can afford a watermaker and the water generator that will power it.

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On 9/18/2017 at 1:43 AM, DDW said:

They may not go upwind very fast but I'll bet this one went downwind like a Banshee...

 

It fits in that berth pretty well too, don't need no stinkin' end tie. 

Found a perfect place!

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Because things that come in 3’s just seem to suck. More money for less utility. 

Why are trikes less popular than motorcycles?

Why did Fokker triplanes never catch on?

Why put up with Jan and Cindy, when Marcia would have done just fine...?

 

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Because they're dumber than two men fucking......

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6 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

 

Great video. Shows what is wrong with catamarans: the so-called designers. WTF were they thinking with those helm chairs? One is placed directly over a slippery hatch where she can just barely reach the tiller...and with nothing to hold onto when thing get bumpy. The wheel station looks no better...it appears far from the wheel. And the sailing speed: WTF? My friends tell me their cats always go 14 knots. That was no 14 knots. Another 50 years of design evolution and someone might just make a practical fun cruising cat.

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The late, great Paul Elvstrom was crossing the Baltic, solo in a trimaran (probably a Dragonfly).  The boat flipped, and Elvstrom spend many hours on the upturned hulls awaiting rescue.  When he got to land, his comment was: "I like ballast."

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Who cares if multihulls have or haven't taken the world by storm?  Lots of people don't like them, lots of people do. So what?

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1 hour ago, in_TO said:

The late, great Paul Elvstrom was crossing the Baltic, solo in a trimaran (probably a Dragonfly).  The boat flipped, and Elvstrom spend many hours on the upturned hulls awaiting rescue.  When he got to land, his comment was: "I like ballast."

IIRC, his last serious campaign was in a Tornado at the Olympics with his daughter as crew.  And I could not agree more with your great comment. I grew up idolizing the man.  

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Russ, what are your trying to do here? Make some sort of sense out of all this? Did you forget who you are addressing? 

    You pretty much hit the nail on the head with your statement, and I agree but that won't carry much weight with this bunch. 

    Actually multihulls pretty much took the world by storm back when your Dad was putting out the study plans for the SeaRunners. It was just a quiet storm yet still reached a lot of people, myself included. My Dad met your Dad at some function at the Yacht Club in Sausilito and I soon got the study plans for the SeaRunner 25 and those hand drawn perspectives and dreams of sailing off "while you still can" stay with me to this day. 

    A quiet storm, yet a storm none the less. Thanks Jim...

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3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Who cares if multihulls have or haven't taken the world by storm?  Lots of people don't like them, lots of people do. So what?

Exactly, but some here are so insecure with their choices they seek validation from others. Its the herd mentality. I love my multi that I built around 20 years ago now,  I keep it in good condition and we do lots of live-aboard miles. I personally couldn't   give the proverbial what anyone thinks about my choice of boat. Maybe thats reflected in where we choose to sail. Very remote places where there ain't a herd to join.:D

Quite obviously you don't have herding instincts .

 

OH, wait a minute, we are members of the sailing anarchy herd.:o

 

The multi/mono  war is over. It finished long ago. Some are just a bit slow.

 

 

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One simple word is the answer to the OP question - prejudice.:P

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Many of the multihull problems mentioned are real, and are the reasons they have not "taken over the world".    The benefits are equally real.  There are some solutions to the former that do not impact on the latter.
 
1) Performance and cost are about the amount of materials, which is about stress and surface area.   Increase either and you need bigger rigs and motors to maintain performance and more laminate to build the boat.  So you end up with 16 tonne all carbon 60' cats costing $3 million.  Minimise each and you end up with 4 tonne fibreglass 60' harryproas at less than half a million.   
When comparing boats, it is more useful to compare what they achieve, rather than what they have on board.  ie, 
Can it be handled by my spouse while I sleep? is more important than the number of electric winches, furling headsails and hydraulic mainsheets.  
Will the boat sail in 6 knots of breeze? rather than how many lightweather sails does it carry and the size of the motor.
Does it sail at wind speed?  is a more important question than whether it has carbon rigging, 3di sails,  multiple winches and sundry extras for downwind sailing.    
Is the boat structure strong and stiff enough?  instead of how much carbon is in the boat. 
etc 
 
2) Difficulty of handling under sail applies to a lot of cats.    Cabin top winches and jammers that cannot be reached comfortably, mainsails that can only be hoisted, lowered and reefed while pointing into the wind, headsails which flog when the sheet is released and set like sacks when partially furled,  swept back shrouds making sailing dead down wind difficult/prone to accidental gybes and high main and jib sheet loads are some examples.   
 
A solution is to make it simple. Unstayed mast, self vanging wishbone boom and no extras is one option. Schooner or biplane if more sail area is required.  You run downwind with the sails eased as far as required, with no extras or poled out headsails needed.   Depower by releasing the lightly loaded mainsheet(s) and the boat will sit quietly until the squall passes.  Or, sheet on a little and sail as fast or as slow as you like.    The sails can be raised, lowered and reefed regardless of wind strength and direction and there is no need to go on the foredeck or to get the crew up to help.   Gybing is as simple as putting the helm down.  The boat runs by the lee until the wind catches the sail and blows it across until it is weathercocked.  Steer back on course, the sail fills.   In really bad conditions, it can be eased all the way forward and pulled in on the other side.   Main sheet loads are low as the boom is self vanging.  The eased sails don't flog.   Maintenance, setting up and tuning are non existent apart from a coat of paint every 10 years.  Simple, failsafe halyard locks reduce halyard size and wear.  
 
3) Performance cats are percieved as dangerous, because they are.     Not many of them sail in bad weather, but all of them worry about it (or should).  Capsizes are rare, "oh shit" moments not so much.   In strong winds they need to have enough sail up to provide speed to tack and steerage from rudders which are often too small.  This is usually more sail area than is comfortable.  Tacking a cat in strong winds and big seas can be hard work, made worse if you get in irons and drift backwards, stressing the rudders and steering.  Gybing in big wind and waves is plain scary.  Surfing at high speed down a wave while sheeting on the main, timing the bear away and the sheet release prior to it crashing across and into the shrouds is not for the faint hearted.  Doing it short handed, at night, in the rain is worse.    
Fear of being hit by a squall adds a lot of stress to multihull cruisers, so they sail conservatively, reducing sail at night or in squally weather.  This is a major cause of multis' poor performance runs on long trips.     Depowering is often impossible as the eased headsail flogs violently and easing the main past the swept back shrouds is impossible.   The effort and drama of removing/furling the big headsail and hanking on and raising a small one, and messing around on the cabin top to tuck in the deep reef exacerbates the problems.
 
The harryproa solution is simple rigs (see above), large rudders (which also provide leeway resistance, removing the need for daggerboards or keels) and shunting instead of tacking.  Shunting does not need any speed or timing of the waves.     Dump the sheets, the boat stops, reverse the rudders and pull on the new sheets, the bow becomes the stern and you sail off in the opposite direction.   Take as long as you like or change your mind half way through.  Shunting is also a boon in a man overboard situation.  Unless you are sailing ddw, shunt and you are immediately heading back to the mob.  Dump the sheets and stop on top of him/her and retrieval is easy.   
 
4) The corkscrew motion of a cat sailing upwind in a seaway is awful unless it is well powered up.  
 
A shorter windward hull allows the bows to meet the waves at the same time, making it more like a mono, without the heeling.  
Heeling is a fun part of mono sailing and is an indication that it is sailing "well", or at least is powered up.   Trimaran and harryproa sailors get the same sense from immersion of the lee bow and any spray they generate.  Without having to live at an angle.
 
5) Mooring multis is expensive and results in a long walk to get off the marina.
 
If the accommodation is not between the hulls, and the boat has an unstayed rig, then telescoping the beams or folding without rotating the hulls  is feasible up to about 40'.  For cruisers, another option is to minimise marina and harbour use, with the added benefits of being away from the noise, bright lights, poluted harbours, drunks and low lifes.   This is the stated plan of many cruisers, but is foiled by tenders which are either too much weight in the wrong place or not safe or fast unless it is calm.   This was the reasoning behind the harryproa tender arrangement, which has the added benefit of reducing the number of engines on the boat along with their maintenance, cost and weight. 
 
6) Layout:  The helmsman should be sheltered, with the primary sail controls within reach and able to see the sails, 4 corners of the boat and all round the horizon.  In particular, he should be able to see to leeward and ahead when the headsail is up.  And be able to chat with the rest of the people on board.   The galley, saloon, cockpit and tramp/lounging area work better if they are all on or near the same level with no steps or narrow side decks to get from one to the other.  Forward cockpits is one solution, until it gets gnarly, but a better option is to rearrange the layout so the cabin is on the windward side of the boat, with the helm in its lee (or inside) and the lounging space/tramp/cockpit is between the beams and the hulls.  http://harryproa.com/?p=1747#more-1747
 
Boats should be designed for the numbers of people on board and their likely use.   The number of bunks, showers and toilets is a good way to compare charter boats, but pretty irrelevant for liveaboards, weekenders, day sailers, racers and cruisers.   A 60'ter is a good live aboard for 4 people, week at a time for 6, weekender for 8, day sailor and dinner party for 12 and party boat for 40 (everyone comfortably seated and sheltered from the sun).    The layout should match as many of these as are relevant to the proposed use.
 
Shallow draft is a safety feature and a labour/cost reducer.  Lifting rudders and boards in big breaking seas means there is nothing to trip the boat when sliding sideways and more options when looking for shelter.    It also allows you to run up a beach if everything turns to custard (lee shore, rope around the prop, override on the main sheet, anchor dragging, jib furler jammed, crew with fingers caught in the main traveller, etc) with a good chance of resuming sailing again the next day.  Shallow draft also means easy bottom cleaning (no haul out or diver required) or fitting bags so cleaning (or antifouling) is not required.  And anchoring close to the beach for less, or no tender use.
 
7) Capsize
While a harryproa is less likely to capsize than a same weight cat due to the uneven weight distribution, flexible masts and other safety features mentioned above, it can still happen.  Because the sheets are (relatively) lightly loaded, it is simple to fit a sheet release activated by a floating wand (similar to the wand on a foiling moth) which immediately and completely releases all the sheet, at a predermined angle of heel or pitch on any point of sail.  As it is a float based release, these angles can be very low.   
 
On the down side, the proa is different, so resale will be more difficult.  However, if the 60' cat cost 3 million new and sold at a 20% discount, you lose 600K, which is more than the initial cost of the proa.  Proas also look weird, which is a drawback to many.  To others it is a really good conversation starter.  

 

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16 minutes ago, harryproa said:

Proas also look weird, which is a drawback to many.  To others it is a really good conversation starter.  

They appear to me to be liked by people who do things in halves and never finish a conversation. 

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On 21.10.2017 at 2:22 AM, in_TO said:

The late, great Paul Elvstrom was crossing the Baltic, solo in a trimaran (probably a Dragonfly).  The boat flipped, and Elvstrom spend many hours on the upturned hulls awaiting rescue.  When he got to land, his comment was: "I like ballast."

 

Can you verify that story ? Iv heard about the flipover - and maybe it was Børge Quorning and Paul Elvstrøm that sailed together - but never heard about that quote.

 

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The genius of tris and cats is hard to bring to the ballast-people - but the proa genius is also hard to bring to the tris and cat-lovers...

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10 hours ago, harryproa said:
Many of the multihull problems mentioned are real, and are the reasons they have not "taken over the world".    The benefits are equally real.  There are some solutions to the former that do not impact on the latter.
 
1) Performance and cost are about the amount of materials, which is about stress and surface area.   Increase either and you need bigger rigs and motors to maintain performance and more laminate to build the boat.  So you end up with 16 tonne all carbon 60' cats costing $3 million.  Minimise each and you end up with 4 tonne fibreglass 60' harryproas at less than half a million.   
When comparing boats, it is more useful to compare what they achieve, rather than what they have on board.  ie, 
Can it be handled by my spouse while I sleep? is more important than the number of electric winches, furling headsails and hydraulic mainsheets.  
Will the boat sail in 6 knots of breeze? rather than how many lightweather sails does it carry and the size of the motor.
Does it sail at wind speed?  is a more important question than whether it has carbon rigging, 3di sails,  multiple winches and sundry extras for downwind sailing.    
Is the boat structure strong and stiff enough?  instead of how much carbon is in the boat. 
etc 
 
2) Difficulty of handling under sail applies to a lot of cats.    Cabin top winches and jammers that cannot be reached comfortably, mainsails that can only be hoisted, lowered and reefed while pointing into the wind, headsails which flog when the sheet is released and set like sacks when partially furled,  swept back shrouds making sailing dead down wind difficult/prone to accidental gybes and high main and jib sheet loads are some examples.   
 
A solution is to make it simple. Unstayed mast, self vanging wishbone boom and no extras is one option. Schooner or biplane if more sail area is required.  You run downwind with the sails eased as far as required, with no extras or poled out headsails needed.   Depower by releasing the lightly loaded mainsheet(s) and the boat will sit quietly until the squall passes.  Or, sheet on a little and sail as fast or as slow as you like.    The sails can be raised, lowered and reefed regardless of wind strength and direction and there is no need to go on the foredeck or to get the crew up to help.   Gybing is as simple as putting the helm down.  The boat runs by the lee until the wind catches the sail and blows it across until it is weathercocked.  Steer back on course, the sail fills.   In really bad conditions, it can be eased all the way forward and pulled in on the other side.   Main sheet loads are low as the boom is self vanging.  The eased sails don't flog.   Maintenance, setting up and tuning are non existent apart from a coat of paint every 10 years.  Simple, failsafe halyard locks reduce halyard size and wear.  
 
3) Performance cats are percieved as dangerous, because they are.     Not many of them sail in bad weather, but all of them worry about it (or should).  Capsizes are rare, "oh shit" moments not so much.   In strong winds they need to have enough sail up to provide speed to tack and steerage from rudders which are often too small.  This is usually more sail area than is comfortable.  Tacking a cat in strong winds and big seas can be hard work, made worse if you get in irons and drift backwards, stressing the rudders and steering.  Gybing in big wind and waves is plain scary.  Surfing at high speed down a wave while sheeting on the main, timing the bear away and the sheet release prior to it crashing across and into the shrouds is not for the faint hearted.  Doing it short handed, at night, in the rain is worse.    
Fear of being hit by a squall adds a lot of stress to multihull cruisers, so they sail conservatively, reducing sail at night or in squally weather.  This is a major cause of multis' poor performance runs on long trips.     Depowering is often impossible as the eased headsail flogs violently and easing the main past the swept back shrouds is impossible.   The effort and drama of removing/furling the big headsail and hanking on and raising a small one, and messing around on the cabin top to tuck in the deep reef exacerbates the problems.
 
The harryproa solution is simple rigs (see above), large rudders (which also provide leeway resistance, removing the need for daggerboards or keels) and shunting instead of tacking.  Shunting does not need any speed or timing of the waves.     Dump the sheets, the boat stops, reverse the rudders and pull on the new sheets, the bow becomes the stern and you sail off in the opposite direction.   Take as long as you like or change your mind half way through.  Shunting is also a boon in a man overboard situation.  Unless you are sailing ddw, shunt and you are immediately heading back to the mob.  Dump the sheets and stop on top of him/her and retrieval is easy.   
 
4) The corkscrew motion of a cat sailing upwind in a seaway is awful unless it is well powered up.  
 
A shorter windward hull allows the bows to meet the waves at the same time, making it more like a mono, without the heeling.  
Heeling is a fun part of mono sailing and is an indication that it is sailing "well", or at least is powered up.   Trimaran and harryproa sailors get the same sense from immersion of the lee bow and any spray they generate.  Without having to live at an angle.
 
5) Mooring multis is expensive and results in a long walk to get off the marina.
 
If the accommodation is not between the hulls, and the boat has an unstayed rig, then telescoping the beams or folding without rotating the hulls  is feasible up to about 40'.  For cruisers, another option is to minimise marina and harbour use, with the added benefits of being away from the noise, bright lights, poluted harbours, drunks and low lifes.   This is the stated plan of many cruisers, but is foiled by tenders which are either too much weight in the wrong place or not safe or fast unless it is calm.   This was the reasoning behind the harryproa tender arrangement, which has the added benefit of reducing the number of engines on the boat along with their maintenance, cost and weight. 
 
6) Layout:  The helmsman should be sheltered, with the primary sail controls within reach and able to see the sails, 4 corners of the boat and all round the horizon.  In particular, he should be able to see to leeward and ahead when the headsail is up.  And be able to chat with the rest of the people on board.   The galley, saloon, cockpit and tramp/lounging area work better if they are all on or near the same level with no steps or narrow side decks to get from one to the other.  Forward cockpits is one solution, until it gets gnarly, but a better option is to rearrange the layout so the cabin is on the windward side of the boat, with the helm in its lee (or inside) and the lounging space/tramp/cockpit is between the beams and the hulls.  http://harryproa.com/?p=1747#more-1747
 
Boats should be designed for the numbers of people on board and their likely use.   The number of bunks, showers and toilets is a good way to compare charter boats, but pretty irrelevant for liveaboards, weekenders, day sailers, racers and cruisers.   A 60'ter is a good live aboard for 4 people, week at a time for 6, weekender for 8, day sailor and dinner party for 12 and party boat for 40 (everyone comfortably seated and sheltered from the sun).    The layout should match as many of these as are relevant to the proposed use.
 
Shallow draft is a safety feature and a labour/cost reducer.  Lifting rudders and boards in big breaking seas means there is nothing to trip the boat when sliding sideways and more options when looking for shelter.    It also allows you to run up a beach if everything turns to custard (lee shore, rope around the prop, override on the main sheet, anchor dragging, jib furler jammed, crew with fingers caught in the main traveller, etc) with a good chance of resuming sailing again the next day.  Shallow draft also means easy bottom cleaning (no haul out or diver required) or fitting bags so cleaning (or antifouling) is not required.  And anchoring close to the beach for less, or no tender use.
 
7) Capsize
While a harryproa is less likely to capsize than a same weight cat due to the uneven weight distribution, flexible masts and other safety features mentioned above, it can still happen.  Because the sheets are (relatively) lightly loaded, it is simple to fit a sheet release activated by a floating wand (similar to the wand on a foiling moth) which immediately and completely releases all the sheet, at a predermined angle of heel or pitch on any point of sail.  As it is a float based release, these angles can be very low.   
 
On the down side, the proa is different, so resale will be more difficult.  However, if the 60' cat cost 3 million new and sold at a 20% discount, you lose 600K, which is more than the initial cost of the proa.  Proas also look weird, which is a drawback to many.  To others it is a really good conversation starter.  

 

I absolutely can't believe that you are trying to sell Harryproas on this thread, Rob. All of your "Facts" and your "Harryproa solution" are just as suspect now as they were 10 or 15 years ago. Why?, because you still haven't proven a single one of your theories. Yes, you have boats being built all over the world, but has even one entered and finished a race? Has one had a successful ocean passage (without structural damage), has one been driven hard in the ocean and been proven to sail upwind, steer downwind, not capsize, etc. Basically all the things a good boat should do, your boat's do perfectly, but only in your head. I'm saying prove it before you make me and everyone else listen to your theories. What happened to Bucket list? All the beautiful computer generated visuals and no boat. Oh wait, there is a boat and it has been sailing, but you are shelving that without proving that it works. Even I was excited to see it go. What is up with you, man? Prove this shit before you sell it!

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Thanks for the opportunity to explain further.   The harryproa ideas are not new, but putting them all on the same platform was.  Harryproas are a cross between a trimaran and a catamaran with the drawbacks of each replaced with what I (and the owners of all the "boats being built all over the world") see as  better solutions.  There is more information at www.harryproa.com    The same applies to Intelligent Infusion, http://harryproa.com/?p=1845  which significantly reduces build time, waste, mess and cost.  Nothing especially new, just a better way of using conventional.   

My post was for the people who don't want boats with the shortcomings pointed out earlier in this thread.  The ones who can see the problems and understand the solutions.   People with this much imagination and foresight are smart enough to realise that most of the points I made in my post are well tested or so obvious that they don't even need testing.  Things like the ease of use of unstayed rigs; less surface area and lower stress being cheaper and lighter; how the boat meets it's requirements is more important than the gear it carries;  shallow draft being a plus and fixed rudders and daggerboards a minus;  bunk numbers is not a good way of assessing room on a boat; a helmsman must be able to see to leeward; stayed rigs are more maintenance and stress on boat and crew; gybing a stayed rig in a gale is scary;  enough sail area in a gale to be able to maneuver a conventional cat is too much for comfort,  etc.  

They are also able to understand the answers and explanations I have posted so many times on so many forums replying to the trolls who follow me around,  trying desperately to move the conversation from boats to their imagined version of me.     

The Bucket List story has also been posted. http://harryproa.com/?p=424#more-424   It was designed to be a fast, safe, low cost, easily assembled, unbreakable boat for race charter. Which it was.   I put up the money and built a prototype, but no one was interested in backing the charter concept, for reasons (mostly paper work and bureaucracy) which made sense.  I had to choose between optimising something that was simply a scaled up version of Elementarry http://harryproa.com/?p=1753#more-1753 which I built and raced 15 years ago, or turning it into something interesting to test out our latest ideas, developed for the Volvo Proa http://harryproa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/volvoproa.pdf prior to perhaps including them in our designs.

It was a pretty easy choice to make.

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Impressive that pro-stuff...  

 

But isnt it a big disadvantage that there no bows and sterns? That is - a bow have certain jobs to do and a stern others jobs - so they will be different to be optimized.  And when you make a broad stern you actually cut a much longer hull - you cant do that on a symmetric hull (space and speed). 

The T-foils - i belive they will be used for foiling cruisers - cats and tris (monos too) bec they can foil earlier and be simple to handle - and maybe cheaper to build.

Kites also have a great future.

  

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It is sort of informative that the kinds of prejudice exhibited by monohull sailors against cats and tris (which those advocates complain bitterly about) is also evident in many cat and tri sailors against proas. 

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54 minutes ago, DDW said:

It is sort of informative that the kinds of prejudice exhibited by monohull sailors against cats and tris (which those advocates complain bitterly about) is also evident in many cat and tri sailors against proas. 

Perhaps, but if you're referring to Russel Brown's post, you're wrong. RB has more than a little experience with proas, both building and sailing. I think you'll also find that many multi sailors are quite interested in all varieties going back to the success of Cheers in the OSTAR. Dick Newick designed several proas including a 60'er that tickled my fancy a few decades ago.

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1 hour ago, Somebody Else said:

Because they deliver an inferior  a different experience unfamiliar to most monohull sailors.  NTTIAWWT.

FIFY

 

 

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3 hours ago, jdazey said:

Perhaps, but if you're referring to Russel Brown's post, you're wrong. RB has more than a little experience with proas, both building and sailing. I think you'll also find that many multi sailors are quite interested in all varieties going back to the success of Cheers in the OSTAR. Dick Newick designed several proas including a 60'er that tickled my fancy a few decades ago.

Not really directed at Russel, I'm aware of what he has accomplished. There are plenty of derogatory comments about proas in this and other threads to choose from.

Any new idea in sailing has two steep cliffs to climb: first, does it actually work? second, will it be accepted on its merits by a very conservative, tradition bound community? The second is often the higher cliff. Catamarans after all have been around for more than a century, yet it is only the last couple of decades that have seen proliferation. Like a lot of things in sailing, it is partly driven by materials science - not that easy to do a light strong cat in timber, then came cold molded, then fiberglass, now carbon which makes it easy (if expensive). But I think the acceptance rate is mainly irrational. 

I have an odd monohull and have experienced the same thing. I get misconceptions thrown at me all the time, even though modern unstayed cat rigs have been around for 40 years. It's too heavy, can't point, fragile, can't reef are some of the typical ones. Again material science is a driver, and carbon fiber a breakthrough. The rig is today superior for many applications, but most sailors won't consider it. Ignorance and prejudice hold it back. 

Rob Denney can be faulted for tirelessly marketing his ideas, while risk aversion prevents them from being fully tested. Many of his ideas make a lot of engineering sense to me, but he is climbing a steep cliff. And Russel Brown has shown that even if you prove a concept, proliferation does not necessarily follow. How many Jzerros have been built?

If you want the safe choice, a nice white monohull sloop is what you are looking for. It will meet your expectations (not because the performance is spectacular, but because it is well known). It will have resale value because the audience of buyers feels the same. You will be welcomed as part of the faceless crowd. Pretty boring though.

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5 hours ago, DDW said:

It is sort of informative that the kinds of prejudice exhibited by monohull sailors against cats and tris (which those advocates complain bitterly about) is also evident in many cat and tri sailors against proas. 

Yes, But more evident from some Proa designers.

Dennys' whole business model is based on dissing Russels proas.

Ridicule of Denny (the DL of proas) is well deserved.

see... http://www.pacificproa.com/articles/steven_callahan_reply_rob_denney.html

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17 hours ago, harryproa said:

Thanks for the opportunity to explain further

You didn't answer his questions while thanking him for asking them! Are you planning to become a standup comedian or a politician?

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On 2017-10-22 at 2:47 AM, SeaGul said:

 

Can you verify that story ? Iv heard about the flipover - and maybe it was Børge Quorning and Paul Elvstrøm that sailed together - but never heard about that quote.

 

I remember the quote from an article in Sailing World.  I’d pull out my archived copies but I tossed about two decades worth in the recycling bin when downsizing to a condo a few years ago.

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3 hours ago, in_TO said:

I remember the quote from an article in Sailing World.  I’d pull out my archived copies but I tossed about two decades worth in the recycling bin when downsizing to a condo a few years ago.

I googled alot but couldnt find the story - but it was reported here in the news bec it was Elvstrom - and maybe Quorning himself on that turned hull....  

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On 10/23/2017 at 8:58 PM, SeaGul said:

Impressive that pro-stuff...  

But isnt it a big disadvantage that there no bows and sterns? That is - a bow have certain jobs to do and a stern others jobs - so they will be different to be optimized.  And when you make a broad stern you actually cut a much longer hull - you cant do that on a symmetric hull (space and speed). 

The T-foils - i belive they will be used for foiling cruisers - cats and tris (monos too) bec they can foil earlier and be simple to handle - and maybe cheaper to build.

Kites also have a great future.

  

Bows and sterns have fixed roles if the hull is wide, length constrained, needs to support a forebeam/tramp/berth in the forepeak or steps up the stern for boarding. A broad stern is similar to cutting off an extended stern once the boat is going fast enough to not have turbulence, but has less affect on pitching. Otherwise, they are fairly interchangable.  They have benefits.  Apart from shunting in big seas/man overboard,  the likelihood of getting pooped and the cockpit (and saloon in many designs) filling with water are much lower.  It is far easier to deploy and retrieve a parachute anchor over the rear beam than it is from the bows and  there is a vastly lower possibility of screwing up the line leads.  On most cats, parachutes are seen as a last line of defence as they are so difficult to deploy, but sitting comfortably and safely on a huge, shallow raft tethered to a parachute is safer and far more pleasant than trying to sail in a gale.   Double ended boats are also much easier to sail off their anchor.  

Agree about the T foils, although keeping the boat light enough and the foils clean and safe from impact damage are strikes against them for cruisers.  

DDW,

"Informative" and often amusing, but in my experience, the loud mouths on the forums are a minute percentage of the overall numbers.   Both mono and multi sailors appreciate the benefits and the layout, but get hung up on the athwartships assymetry, even while admitting it works well.  You will find that if you take out the criticism of Denney, there are few sensible comments about why harryproas won't work the way they do.  For that matter, if you take out the Denney criticisms that are from other proa designers and wannabe designers, there is not much left.   

 I agree about your cliff theories, not about risk aversion.  The early harrys were thrashed around Perth and Fremantle, site of the windy America's Cup in 1987.  I broke a lot of them finding the limits.   The ones that have been built for/by other people have stood the test of time.   An overloaded 40'ter http://harryproa.com/?p=119#more-119 crossed the Tasman Sea  including sitting out a 45 knot gale.  They broke a ring frame which should have been a bulkhead, but otherwise was fine. http://harryproa.com/?p=119#more-119    A 25'ter cruised 1,000 miles of the pretty nasty West Australian coast, some of them have been raced enough to show they perform as expected given their weight, length sail area and rig type.  All as expected.  Where they are different is in their layout, their light weight/low cost for their length/accommodation and the way they are sailed.   

 All except one of the larger ones (owner died shortly after launching) are still with their original owners.  Structurally, harryproas are simpler and lighter than cats and tris, so there is no reason why they should fall apart any easier.  

An aside.  If you were to put the same effort, imagination and money into a multihull to replace your mono, what would it be like?  

Overlay,

The dissing was done by Russ and his mates in Wooden Boat and Cruising World magazines, and recently on Facebook.  I drew attention to it, and designed a boat without the drawbacks they described and got vilified for doing so.   Read what you like from Callaghan's attempt to rewrite his article, but read the original first.  PM me and I will send it. 

My business model is based on providing  low cost solutions to what the client requires.   For cruisers, these are harryproas, but on the books at the moment are a power cat for river and trans ocean use, a charter proa for 20 people, a catamaran solar powered ferry, a 12m catamaran which is rightable by the crew and a sailing ferry/cargo carrier for use in out of the way places.   Russ, his fan club and his proas faded into insignificance about 10 years ago. Now, as then, they/you provide an opportunity to talk about harryproas, not much else.

Panoramix,

Sorry.  The questions asked were the same as have been asked dozens of times before.  And answered.  Answering them again is tedious for me and the readers which is why I suggested the search in my 3rd paragraph. The ocean crossing and race answers are in my response to DDW.  The Bucket List question is in the link in my last post.  Anything else you think I have not answered sufficiently, let me know.  

 

 

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It isn't the strength of the harryproas that I would consider unproven, surely they can be made as strong as anything out there. Nor the engineering concept. What I wonder about is the "unknown unknowns". To a monohull sailor (this one anyway) some of the significant drawbacks of a catamaran are not apparent until you sail one (especially in a seaway). Once experienced you begin to understand why they happen, though not apparent a priori. These are never mentioned in the brochure, and rarely even in a wide read of the literature. My question would be: what are the unknown unknowns in a harryproa? There is not significant literature on them (and like cats would probably not be comprehensive if there were), none are available to charter, so one is left with the risk of trying it oneself. 

If I were to move to a multihull, I think at this point it would be a tri or something like the harryproa. The former is well proven, but requires quite a large size to get much accommodation which is a drawback. The latter I would consider a risky experiment, but I am not risk averse. In either case I would want to sail one, offshore in a seaway, maneuvering in close quarters, etc., to see what was left out of the brochure. I will qualify myself by admitting that I readily go for the weird and different. I've spent a large part of my life saying, "there must be a better way...." and every once in awhile I am right. 

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5 hours ago, harryproa said:

 

Panoramix,

Sorry.  The questions asked were the same as have been asked dozens of times before.  And answered.  Answering them again is tedious for me and the readers which is why I suggested the search in my 3rd paragraph. The ocean crossing and race answers are in my response to DDW.  The Bucket List question is in the link in my last post.  Anything else you think I have not answered sufficiently, let me know.  

 

So why do you thank him for answering questions you consider redundant?

 

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

It isn't the strength of the harryproas that I would consider unproven, surely they can be made as strong as anything out there. Nor the engineering concept. What I wonder about is the "unknown unknowns". To a monohull sailor (this one anyway) some of the significant drawbacks of a catamaran are not apparent until you sail one (especially in a seaway). Once experienced you begin to understand why they happen, though not apparent a priori. These are never mentioned in the brochure, and rarely even in a wide read of the literature. My question would be: what are the unknown unknowns in a harryproa? There is not significant literature on them (and like cats would probably not be comprehensive if there were), none are available to charter, so one is left with the risk of trying it oneself. 

If I were to move to a multihull, I think at this point it would be a tri or something like the harryproa. The former is well proven, but requires quite a large size to get much accommodation which is a drawback. The latter I would consider a risky experiment, but I am not risk averse. In either case I would want to sail one, offshore in a seaway, maneuvering in close quarters, etc., to see what was left out of the brochure. I will qualify myself by admitting that I readily go for the weird and different. I've spent a large part of my life saying, "there must be a better way...." and every once in awhile I am right. 

A proa might be fine in the ocean or poet-to-port - seems the Polynesians proved that - but I can't imagine trying to tack or jibe a proa up a narrow waterway.  Especially in a breeze.  

Still wondering why the Bieker-designed proa failed so miserably in the Race to Alaska (R2AK).  Lots of pedigree in that boat.

 

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

A proa might be fine in the ocean or poet-to-port - seems the Polynesians proved that - but I can't imagine trying to tack or jibe a proa up a narrow waterway.  Especially in a breeze.  

 

Exactly the kind of practical considerations that one would need to experience before committing. On my boat, I can do that with a beer in each hand while expending approximately 0 calories. 

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3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

A proa might be fine in the ocean or poet-to-port - seems the Polynesians proved that -

 

A poet-to-port; exactly the type of person to have on a long voyage. Given the Polynesian practice of oral history they may well have had one on most proas.

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9 minutes ago, KC375 said:

A poet-to-port; exactly the type of person to have on a long voyage. Given the Polynesian practice of oral history they may well have had one on most proas.

Saw that, almost edited it, then decided to leave it.  Reminded me of my first Transpac where the owner (the awesome George Kiskaddon (RIP)) read from Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" every happy hour.  

It was on the ultra-light (for the day), cold-molded NZ-built schooner.  A great ocean boat and a really good monohull ocean boat.

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'poet to port' made me think of Webb Chiles

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37 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

which of these is worse?

Scow, proa or foiler fans

All pontificate

Not the only ones to pontificate IMHO 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

which of these is worse?

Scow, proa or foiler fans

All pontificate

"Eighteen knots" - no bullshit, 40 years of history, proven for thousands of blue water miles on both U.S. coasts and all the way to Australia - Russell Brown 36' Pacific flying proa JZERRO:

 

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sigh..... it was a Haiku...

 

Irony is dead.

 

i·ro·ny1
ˈīrənē/
noun
 
  1. the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

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