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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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notherday

Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

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This isn't a pointed topic, but with several years under the belt of A-class, Nacras, Gunboats, the mod70s, AC, etc, why haven't the multihulls taken the world by storm  (in terms of numbers) and will they ever?

Yes there are those who are just sold on mutlihulls - but the run of the mill racing crowd hasn't jumped on board. We see all the TP/Pac52s, the the mini-maxis, etc - so we know there is new money being spent, but excpet for the high end cruisers and the super hight end record breakers, we still don't see a shift to multis.

I know from experience the cats can be onucomofrtable as they bounce about, but they can also be comfortable when they get up and out of the water.

They are fast, require less crew, etc - so why haven't they taken off? Is it because SH and Bermuda didn't accept them? But fastnet, trans atlantic, transpac all accpet them so that can't be it.

Looking for real thoughts not trible drumbeating. If we were to build a new boat today- should it be a monohull or multi? Interesting question after two big AC efforts have led 80% of sailors wishing the event back to monohulls.

 

 

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I'd say part of it is that they're generally at least twice as expensive as a comparable sized monohull, and it's harder to find places to dock them.

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For me, thinking about a transpac racer with young folk as crew.

multi pros. Faster if the limit is money, which it is

more "privacy" in that there are some quiet spots available. Nice luxury 5-7 days out...

easier, more restful ride when it's lighter

cons: hard to berth, more cost

not as foregiveable when the big squalls start to hit. Mono will lay down, cat may pitchpole.

 

will get a mono. If it was just experienced guys, maybe multi...

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Um, maybe because the gunboats and pretty much half of the multihulls in the Caribbean are inverted as we speak thanks to Irma...they just let you down in a capsize situation

 

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It may be an exaggeration but cruising cats are as lame (and ugly) as racing cats are dangerous. Oh, and they all go to windward like square riggers, don't they? 

Dont get me wrong, I sailed a tornado when I was younger and it was lots of fun... between five and ten knots true. Every time we flipped it I thought: "I wouldn't want to do THAT at sea!" 

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In the UK at least the time when beach cats were most popular was the 60s, so any grand change in relative popularity now seems unlikely.

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29 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

Oh, and they all go to windward like square riggers, don't they?

No, not all.  And the risk of flipping one is greatly exaggerated, provided you understand the dynamics of sailing at higher speeds, know when to reef and the limits of your boat.

Nigel Irens: "A lot of windage" - indeed!  (in this one below)

 

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In Brittany beach cats are relatively popular. We don't have that many dinghy sailors, so the proportion of cats is quite high as the coastal raids still attract people. 

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$$$ for the boat and moorage, limited cruising space (our boat does double duty) and limited local competition are what kept me from looking more into them.  Most races here only have a couple of multihulls registered. 

On the other hand I'm really impressed with what I've seen of the G32 that Russell Brown sailed in r2ak. What a cool little boat. 

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harder to tack makes them less attractive round the buoys

harder to manage if the wind pipes up makes them less attractive overall

more expensive to berth with far fewer options for dockage makes them less attractive around the checkbook

thier ability more likely to go inverted makes them less attractive around the missus

don't get me wrong - if I had my own dock behind my own house and a guarantee that the wind would never gust above 22 I'd be happy with a multi, but there's too many times I've seen the keel or windchecked

 

 

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When an ocean-going multi capsizes, it's game over. EPIRB time.

When a mono capsizes, it shrugs it off and carries on.

This, maybe more than any other reason, is a huge factor in holding back multis. When the weather turns to shit, you can secure all the gear on a mono and pretty much seal 'er up and go make yourself some hot cocoa (with a tot of rum in mine, please!) In a multi, you need to be a lot more diligent about controlling speed and keeping it oriented correctly. In storm conditions, it is fatigue that will do you in. If you can't get some rest and food, your endurance starts to diminish sooner. Multis for the younger set, monos for us older codgers.

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Welllll... when a mono rolls, you often lose the rig.  It ain't all peaches and cream,  but your point is taken. 

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32 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

When an ocean-going multi capsizes, it's game over. EPIRB time.

The multihull remains floating, even when holed and/or upside down.  The mono sinks.  "Modern" multihulls (for decades) have escape hatches accessible in the inverted position, making the boat a viable life raft.

The faster multihull reduces your exposure to bad weather.

But these are all very old cliches.

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5 hours ago, notherday said:

This isn't a pointed topic, but with several years under the belt of A-class, Nacras, Gunboats, the mod70s, AC, etc, why haven't the multihulls taken the world by storm  (in terms of numbers) and will they ever?

Yes there are those who are just sold on mutlihulls - but the run of the mill racing crowd hasn't jumped on board. We see all the TP/Pac52s, the the mini-maxis, etc - so we know there is new money being spent, but excpet for the high end cruisers and the super hight end record breakers, we still don't see a shift to multis.

I know from experience the cats can be onucomofrtable as they bounce about, but they can also be comfortable when they get up and out of the water.

They are fast, require less crew, etc - so why haven't they taken off? Is it because SH and Bermuda didn't accept them? But fastnet, trans atlantic, transpac all accpet them so that can't be it.

Looking for real thoughts not trible drumbeating. If we were to build a new boat today- should it be a monohull or multi? Interesting question after two big AC efforts have led 80% of sailors wishing the event back to monohulls.

 

 

Simple. Big multis are expensive to dock, store on land, hoist, etc. It really is that simple. 

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Cost/benefit is a big part.  Cats and tris are more expensive due to building two or three "boats" to complete one.  Moorage is expensive and difficult to find, there are only so many end ties.

That said I cruised with my family for 18 months on a 44 foot Kantola open wing trimaran. It had similar interior space to a 35 foot monohull but was very fast (for 1988) with 200 nm days pretty regular with just my wife and 4 and 8 year old kids aboard and loaded with cruising gear.  I did stream a drouge several times in foul weather but was very careful to avoid real storms.

For tropical and trade wind sailing I love older multihulls (pre-room-r-rans) but for higher latitudes I would go with a monohull.

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34 minutes ago, Monkey said:
5 hours ago, notherday said:

This isn't a pointed topic, but with several years under the belt of A-class, Nacras, Gunboats, the mod70s, AC, etc, why haven't the multihulls taken the world by storm  (in terms of numbers) and will they ever?

....   ...   ...

Simple. Big multis are expensive to dock, store on land, hoist, etc. It really is that simple. 

Why -should- mulits "take the world by storm"? What kind of boat you like is personal and emotional, not logical. Do you have an emotional need for everyone to acknowledge that your choice of boat is superior?

I just don't particularly care for most multihulls. They're more expensive, yes, but they are also more of a PITA. And most of them look like machines (at best). I spent some time racing beach cats and have sailed a few friends big cruising cats, so it's not like I haven't given them a chance. FWIW I think the foiling AC cats are very cool, but I will never sail anything remotely like that.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

This

 

images (82).jpg

Ramtha survived that storm very well, and while left completely on her own, after the crew was winched off......

Oh, yeah they recovered her later...

I would say, the biggest issue is moorage. period.

Sailors that dont appreciate the lines of a nice cat or tri, will only every like the lines of a monohull.

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Yes Keith, the Ramtha story was pretty amazing. I had an old vhs video of that storm taken from the Kiwi navy boat that rescued several crews from several yachts that came to grief in that bomb enroute from NZ to Tonga during a race/rally. From what I remember there were several fatalities from the mono fleet but none from the multi fleet. And yes Ramtha was retrieved at Fiji by its owner and is still sailing today. 

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7 hours ago, notherday said:

This isn't a pointed topic, but with several years under the belt of A-class, Nacras, Gunboats, the mod70s, AC, etc, why haven't the multihulls taken the world by storm  (in terms of numbers) and will they ever?

Yes there are those who are just sold on mutlihulls - but the run of the mill racing crowd hasn't jumped on board. We see all the TP/Pac52s, the the mini-maxis, etc - so we know there is new money being spent, but excpet for the high end cruisers and the super hight end record breakers, we still don't see a shift to multis.

I know from experience the cats can be onucomofrtable as they bounce about, but they can also be comfortable when they get up and out of the water.

They are fast, require less crew, etc - so why haven't they taken off? Is it because SH and Bermuda didn't accept them? But fastnet, trans atlantic, transpac all accpet them so that can't be it.

Looking for real thoughts not trible drumbeating. If we were to build a new boat today- should it be a monohull or multi? Interesting question after two big AC efforts have led 80% of sailors wishing the event back to monohulls.

 

 

Maybe different strokes for different folks?

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The people who want a cat are apparently far fewer. And the some portion of those who want a cat cannot afford a suitable one. Both purchase and proper maintenance cost far more.

I've sailed both. Find the typical cat as much fun to sail as a motorhome is to drive. Just when things start to get fun the flipping thing comes into play. Have sailed with some very experienced multi captains. Was floored by how worried they were about flipping just when the conditions were getting sporty.  Only the home built or custom built models were marginally fun to sail. However they were necessarily cramped inside. The cats that are not cramped inside hurt my eyes. 

I cannot afford a cat "comparable" to my mono even if somebody, anybody, managed to make a suitable one.

Cruising cats don't make any better passage times, overall, than monos. Racing a large cat is bleak. Yeah, maybe with foils. The lack of heeling sure makes pumping the hydraulics easier......

The typical overloaded monohull cruiser is bleak enough to sail...

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1. You need to rent TWO slips and pay $$$$ and pay more $$$ to get the middle pilings yanked out.

2. Hurricanes pick them up and drop them wherever and frequently inverted too :o

3. They are very expensive.

4. When you are traveling, slip space is a bitch.

5. Racing cats will look like trying to live inside an airplane wing to your wife and most cruising cats are slow.

6. Two engines to maintain and expensive haulouts and you get to paint the bottom twice :rolleyes:

7 5800_CY_Legacy_Gallery_Ext.jpg?t=1C1DMk&

Is there industrial-strength eye bleach for this?

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3 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

The multihull remains floating, even when holed and/or upside down.  The mono sinks.  "Modern" multihulls (for decades) have escape hatches accessible in the inverted position, making the boat a viable life raft.

The faster multihull reduces your exposure to bad weather.

But these are all very old cliches.

NOT always! Didn't we have a relatively common type of cat hit something offshore and sink with loss of life?

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15 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

1. You need to rent TWO slips and pay $$$$ and pay more $$$ to get the middle pilings yanked out.

2. Hurricanes pick them up and drop them wherever and frequently inverted too :o

3. They are very expensive.

4. When you are traveling, slip space is a bitch.

5. Racing cats will look like trying to live inside an airplane wing to your wife and most cruising cats are slow.

6. Two engines to maintain and expensive haulouts and you get to paint the bottom twice :rolleyes:

7 5800_CY_Legacy_Gallery_Ext.jpg?t=1C1DMk&

Is there industrial-strength eye bleach for this?

 

IMG_0799.JPG

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8 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Somewhat improved, but still could do more.................

I think this picture will become somewhat of a classic illustration of "What's wrong with multihulls."  Probably not without a certain degree of justification.  Of course, cats don't have thousands of pounds of iron or lead to hold them down in a bit of a breeze....

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19 minutes ago, hobot said:

Next up, why haven't Proas taken the world by storm?

Why haven't homemade origami boats taken the world by storm?

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2 hours ago, silent bob said:

 

IMG_0799.JPG

They may not go upwind very fast but I'll bet this one went downwind like a Banshee...

 

It fits in that berth pretty well too, don't need no stinkin' end tie. 

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This is silly, most multis are just wave piercing barges.

They sail like a wave piercing barge and motor like one.

At best they are average motor sailers so just buy a good displacement cruiser which will be heaps cheaper to run.

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11 hours ago, notherday said:

This isn't a pointed topic, but with several years under the belt of A-class, Nacras, Gunboats, the mod70s, AC, etc, why haven't the multihulls taken the world by storm  (in terms of numbers) and will they ever?

Yes there are those who are just sold on mutlihulls - but the run of the mill racing crowd hasn't jumped on board. We see all the TP/Pac52s, the the mini-maxis, etc - so we know there is new money being spent, but excpet for the high end cruisers and the super hight end record breakers, we still don't see a shift to multis.

I know from experience the cats can be onucomofrtable as they bounce about, but they can also be comfortable when they get up and out of the water.

They are fast, require less crew, etc - so why haven't they taken off? Is it because SH and Bermuda didn't accept them? But fastnet, trans atlantic, transpac all accpet them so that can't be it.

Looking for real thoughts not trible drumbeating. If we were to build a new boat today- should it be a monohull or multi? Interesting question after two big AC efforts have led 80% of sailors wishing the event back to monohulls.

 

 

Yep, us run of the mill sailors are enjoying our tp52s and mini-maxis (in our dreams).

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Its ok for me that most stay with monos - then you can still feel abit spesial oft there... 

But see the charter fleet - why is multis now dominating? See many long distance sailors with family - many choose multis. Look at the ARC - lots of multis there - and they tend to sail rather fast. Take one of the most common and popular boats - Lagoon 38 - in the hands of a good sailor and with some real sails - and not too much weight - they can be quite fast. 

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If you want a cruising boat then it needs to have cruising features such as a well thought out 35-45 footer. This weighs quite a lot. To make a multihull in anyway rewarding to sail then you have to keep the weight out and the windage down. You can do this in 50 foot plus tri or cats but I don't believe you can do this below this length due to proportions. Whilst you can camp on a 30 foot tri or cat if you want to cruise on it and have comfort then it looks like an abomination and probably sails like one. This is before you get into the obvious cost issues with two engines and large dock space required.

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As a family we've had nine multis; racers, cruisers, tris and cats. They're great boats but they will probably only ever suit a minority of sailors, and that minority isn't getting bigger. People have been literally talking about The Coming Multihull Era for over 60 years now, and if anything they are still dwindling as a proportion of racing boats, and given the big numbers of Pivers and Wharrams there were years ago the growth of multihull cruisers could also be overstated. For example, take the ARC - there were 30 multis out of 210 entries. That's a smaller proportion of multis than in the 1964 transat. Or take the collapse of classes like Nacras and Prindles in the USA, which has overshadowed any growth in other cat classes.

Why do most people prefer monos? Here's a few guesses;

1- Most people don't care about pure speed;

2- The speed is obtained partly through high stability, which often means bigger, heavier, more expensive rigs with high loads;

3- The accommodation is great in some ways but some of us hate it being split up and having to climb in and out of hulls.

4- The deck space is great but the cockpit layouts often seem to be terrible; even in beach cats having to crawl under a boom can be a PITA.

5- Cruisers tend to be either bloody expensive and highly-loaded or slow; even vaunted performance cruisers can be surprisingly slow under 10 knots windspeed. 

6- The long, skinny hulls makes cats less responsive on the helm even if you're talking a Tornado compared to a FD or F18 compared to 49er. 

7- Lots of us actually LIKE heeling a lot of the time, just like people like leaning on surfboards, motorbikes, windsurfers, cycles and flying hulls on small cats.

8- In the conditions that many cruising cats go well, you're already going OK on a mono anyway. 

9 - Racing in offshore multis in big winds tends (in my experience) to be a lot more about who is willing to risk a capsize and losing their insurance or blowing a kite, rather than skill. Maybe that's just a reflection our local fleet, although my skipper was highly competitive at national level.

10- If you chase ultimate speed then you'll always end up compromising on easy rigging, low cost and other logistical issues. Monos aren't fast, so they unconsciously seem more willing to compromise on speed to improve economy, ease of handling, feel, etc.

11- Cost. Powerful rigs, twin engines, lots of skin area, twin rudders......

12- Lots of people in the multi community feel superior because they chose multis (in fact sometimes I wonder if that's why they choose them) so instead of listening to the marketplace so they can make multis more attractive to other sailors, they sneer at them and say that mono sailors are conservative etc.

Not one of these things is a big issue, and they are all offset by the things that multis are great at. Kicking back in a good cruiser at anchor or blasting a good beach cat in 18 knots of wind is fantastic. Basically mono v multi is just a matter of different trade-offs that suit different personal tastes, and monos suit more tastes.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Jay said:

As a family we've had nine multis; racers, cruisers, tris and cats. They're great boats but they will probably only ever suit a minority of sailors, and that minority isn't getting bigger. People have been literally talking about The Coming Multihull Era for over 60 years now, and if anything they are still dwindling as a proportion of racing boats, and given the big numbers of Pivers and Wharrams there were years ago the growth of multihull cruisers could also be overstated. For example, take the ARC - there were 30 multis out of 210 entries. That's a smaller proportion of multis than in the 1964 transat. Or take the collapse of classes like Nacras and Prindles in the USA, which has overshadowed any growth in other cat classes.

Why do most people prefer monos? Here's a few guesses;

1- Most people don't care about pure speed;

2- The speed is obtained partly through high stability, which often means bigger, heavier, more expensive rigs with high loads;

3- The accommodation is great in some ways but some of us hate it being split up and having to climb in and out of hulls.

4- The deck space is great but the cockpit layouts often seem to be terrible; even in beach cats having to crawl under a boom can be a PITA.

5- Cruisers tend to be either bloody expensive and highly-loaded or slow; even vaunted performance cruisers can be surprisingly slow under 10 knots windspeed. 

6- The long, skinny hulls makes cats less responsive on the helm even if you're talking a Tornado compared to a FD or F18 compared to 49er. 

7- Lots of us actually LIKE heeling a lot of the time, just like people like leaning on surfboards, motorbikes, windsurfers, cycles and flying hulls on small cats.

8- In the conditions that many cruising cats go well, you're already going OK on a mono anyway. 

9 - Racing in offshore multis in big winds tends (in my experience) to be a lot more about who is willing to risk a capsize and losing their insurance or blowing a kite, rather than skill. Maybe that's just a reflection our local fleet, although my skipper was highly competitive at national level.

10- If you chase ultimate speed then you'll always end up compromising on easy rigging, low cost and other logistical issues. Monos aren't fast, so they unconsciously seem more willing to compromise on speed to improve economy, ease of handling, feel, etc.

11- Cost. Powerful rigs, twin engines, lots of skin area, twin rudders......

12- Lots of people in the multi community feel superior because they chose multis (in fact sometimes I wonder if that's why they choose them) so instead of listening to the marketplace so they can make multis more attractive to other sailors, they sneer at them and say that mono sailors are conservative etc.

Not one of these things is a big issue, and they are all offset by the things that multis are great at. Kicking back in a good cruiser at anchor or blasting a good beach cat in 18 knots of wind is fantastic. Basically mono v multi is just a matter of different trade-offs that suit different personal tastes, and monos suit more tastes.

 

 

Yes, well summed up. I would think also that for most of us, a multi is outside our comfort zone simply because we aren't used to sail them. Most people are quite conservative and - even if they won't admit it - don't like going out of their comfort zone.

I am a monohull sailor and I sail beach cats sometimes. For all these reasons the only times where I would want a multihull is :

  • a beach cat to zip across the bay and take part in the occasional raid.
  • a 26 feet wharram or equivalent to go sailing in shallow water where others don't go. I would keep it disassembled in my backyard most of the time and on a mooring the rest of the time
  • a floating house to cruise along the tropics. I think that even just for the not rolling at anchor bit, the catamaran is worth it. 

the 2 first options doesn't interest many (lack of comfort) and for the 3rd one you need to have a consequent budget that few can afford.

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10 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

 5800_CY_Legacy_Gallery_Ext.jpg?t=1C1DMk&

Is there industrial-strength eye bleach for this?

No doubt about it, this is a ridiculous condomaran.  A good example of what to avoid in multihulls.  I posted that video above because it was Nigel Irens talking about sailing upwind, but was surprised to see his name associated with such an ungainly beast.  The Outremer is WAY BETTER.

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6 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Its ok for me that most stay with monos - then you can still feel abit spesial oft there... 

But see the charter fleet - why is multis now dominating? See many long distance sailors with family - many choose multis. Look at the ARC - lots of multis there - and they tend to sail rather fast. Take one of the most common and popular boats - Lagoon 38 - in the hands of a good sailor and with some real sails - and not too much weight - they can be quite fast. 

because the charterers are only "owning" (using) the boat for a short while? It is very likely that many of those charterers own a mono somewhere else but are chartering a multi-because they are only going to use it for a short period of time. my guess only. If I went to the Caribbean I might very well charter a multi-but there is no way in hell I would want to own one myself.

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Why are they so eager to rent a multi - new experience of c - and much more comfortable - and value for money as they can be 4 couples to share the rent - and still have privacy.

Also the social areas - with bridgdeck with a view and connected to the cockpit - and the possibility to "party" or be comfortable under sail - even not sailing is a multi-thing - in a heeling mono you sit on the rail...

People who have done the ARC in a multi tell a store of comfortable passage - same race in mono - no so much.

Biggest against - price - and that most feel multis are complex - as stated over - out of comfort sone for many.

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13 minutes ago, Parma said:

because the charterers are only "owning" (using) the boat for a short while? It is very likely that many of those charterers own a mono somewhere else but are chartering a multi-because they are only going to use it for a short period of time. my guess only. If I went to the Caribbean I might very well charter a multi-but there is no way in hell I would want to own one myself.

That's me right there in a nutshell. I own a monohull and am a lifelong monohull sailor. I've messed around with beach cats and the fastest was a loaded up Hobie 18 with boards, which for me at least was great. I've chartered both mono and multi in the Carribean and for that application at least, I would charter a multi everytime, hands down.

In addition to what's been mentioned above, one other multihull advantage is a one level transition between cockpit floor and salon floor. This is a great feature for the big groups and and especially the elderly. 

When it comes to owning, maintaining and carrying the costs of my own boat, I'm cool with my mono hull. 

 

 

 

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For a BVI charter (at least before now :(  ), a multi was the only way to go. We had a 39 foot cat with 4 private double birth staterooms that were not on the way to another part of the boat. The cockpit was HUGE and it worked out great for a crowd. We didn't do a lot of windward work, but the Privilege 39 seemed not too far off the charter monos. We couldn't point as high, but the VMG was OK with higher boat speed. A nice mono would have passed us like we were aground, but a charter BenCatHUn with a furling main is not a speed demon either :rolleyes:  Off the wind, we had no problem getting 10+ boat speeds. The suckiest thing was getting home into about 50 knots. The waves were hitting the bridge deck HARD and stuff in the cabin would get launched off the table. We had a few hours of that before the storm died down some.

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35 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

For a BVI charter (at least before now :(  ), a multi was the only way to go. We had a 39 foot cat with 4 private double birth staterooms that were not on the way to another part of the boat. The cockpit was HUGE and it worked out great for a crowd. We didn't do a lot of windward work, but the Privilege 39 seemed not too far off the charter monos. We couldn't point as high, but the VMG was OK with higher boat speed. A nice mono would have passed us like we were aground, but a charter BenCatHUn with a furling main is not a speed demon either :rolleyes:  Off the wind, we had no problem getting 10+ boat speeds. The suckiest thing was getting home into about 50 knots. The waves were hitting the bridge deck HARD and stuff in the cabin would get launched off the table. We had a few hours of that before the storm died down some.

Ex-boss bought a hurricane wrecked Lagoon 42 and rebuilt it. Did some pretty nice mods (like replacing the broken-off stub keels with daggerboards).  He kept it light, and it sailed pretty well. I built him some carbon sails for the boat, and he decided to enter the St Pete-Isla Mujeres Race. It was a pretty windy close reach most of the way. He had to reef down and throttle back because the bridge deck was pounding so badly it gave him PTSD. Ex-Vietnam Vet. Said it sounded like grenades going off. Afterwards he kind of regretted getting rid of his Cherebini Hunter 37. Despite slower and less room, he thought it was a better and more comfortable sea boat.

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12 hours ago, RKoch said:

Why haven't homemade origami boats taken the world by storm?

Homemade Origami Proas for sure.

Might actually make sense as the ugliness of the inevitable center hull chines can be hidden behind the amas, and their shape seems pretty irrelevant given the heritage as an out rigger sponson. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Homemade Origami Proas for sure.

Might actually make sense as the ugliness of the inevitable center hull chines can be hidden behind the amas, and their shape seems pretty irrelevant given the heritage as an out rigger sponson. 

 

 

Someone needs to do up some crayon sketches. I'm sure they could sell one or two sets of plans to inexperienced dreamers.

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RKoch,

     I wanted to do the same 'buy a grounded cat' and pull those stub keels (they plug right into sockets in the hull!) and do some nice daggers. I think I heard about your bosses conversion. So would he be interested in selling it? I'm sure that there are a lot of candidates for such a conversion down in the VI right now and have been thinking of going down and working for the boat surveyors in the hopes of finding the right boat. Glad I procrastinated and am not on my way there now with Maria bearing down. 

    I delivered a cat built in St Kitts that was a poor example of a Shuttleworth knockoff. It had a huge ugly box of a cabin with lots of heavy glass and the boat was way down on its lines especially by the stern. A wave would enter the space between the hulls and then close off the exit just ahead of the back edge of the bridgedeck and it would spit water and spray a couple of boatlengths out the front! Sounded more like a mortar going off rather than a mere grenade. The head was at the aft end of the deckhouse and was a 'Newick Offshore WC' meaning it was a simple outhouse style seat with a hole under it to the open ocean. If one was sitting on the head when a wave concussed under the bridgedeck, you either got a salt water enema and your willy would come flying up from tucked between your legs and flail about due to the air pressure like one of those inflatable dudes you see at store openings.

Image result for inflatable penis

 

      The drains for the head sink and shower stall were the same way and there was always a spattering of mold and algae on the overhead from the exhaust of the underwing. The skippers GF went into the head one day when the 'sneeze machine' was in action and I started to caution her but the Skip motioned to me to zip my lip and it wasn't long before we heard her scream of surprise and disgust. We really shouldn't have laughed and I think the rest of that delivery was in celibacy for the skipper...

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8 hours ago, The Jay said:

 

2- The speed is obtained partly through high stability, which often means bigger, heavier, more expensive rigs with high loads;

9 - Racing in offshore multis in big winds tends (in my experience) to be a lot more about who is willing to risk a capsize and losing their insurance or blowing a kite, rather than skill. Maybe that's just a reflection our local fleet, although my skipper was highly competitive at national level.

 

 

As I mentioned - I'm about to be in the market - and there's a sweet little Hughes bridge deck cat on the market. I followed her when she was built, it's a nice little quick cat.

 

But think about a PacCup. Couple colds days reaching, long middle section where it's lightish, then the squalls and the dash.  And with an in-experienced crew:


Reaching - reef it, and go

Middle - full power and go

end: reef for the gusts, which means at night, when you can make tons of time, you have to throttle back significantly in case something sneaks up on you.  I think you lose the race there. 

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99% of the time the cats are simply no fun or less fun to steer/sail. Yes, some have a performance advantage some of the time.  Add even a small amount of weight and the advantage is gone.  Look at the ARC boats sailing downwind each year to the Caribbean.  Very few hit a 200 mile day.  The claims of blinding speed just do not match the real world we sail in.

Yes, the seagoing condo's with a stub sticking out for a mast do well in the caribbean bar hopping trade called "bareboat sailing".  Space and privacy can be a benefit. 

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Cats, have taken the world by storm worldwide.  Hobie did it by finding new folks who were searching for fun and had nothing to loose.  Big cats are a big deal and will never be for everyone.  Proas are a logic that is nonwestern.

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9 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Look at the ARC - lots of multis there - and they tend to sail rather fast. 

I have actually looked at the ARC over the last decade or so. With few exceptions, the multihulls finish in the middle of the pack of monohulls. The exceptions are enthusiastically sailed $3M+ carbon cats. Those typically come in about the same time as the high priced light monohulls. And this is a downwind passage. 

The multihull promise of high average speed under sail has been illusory. The realized promise of space is what makes them popular. They aren't very much fun to sail. I'm told a performance oriented tri would be fast and fun to sail, but you need to upsize the LOA by 50% or more to get the same accommodation as a mono. 

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22 hours ago, notherday said:

This isn't a pointed topic, but with several years under the belt of A-class, Nacras, Gunboats, the mod70s, AC, etc, why haven't the multihulls taken the world by storm  (in terms of numbers) and will they ever?

Yes there are those who are just sold on mutlihulls - but the run of the mill racing crowd hasn't jumped on board. We see all the TP/Pac52s, the the mini-maxis, etc - so we know there is new money being spent, but excpet for the high end cruisers and the super hight end record breakers, we still don't see a shift to multis.

I know from experience the cats can be onucomofrtable as they bounce about, but they can also be comfortable when they get up and out of the water.

They are fast, require less crew, etc - so why haven't they taken off? Is it because SH and Bermuda didn't accept them? But fastnet, trans atlantic, transpac all accpet them so that can't be it.

Looking for real thoughts not trible drumbeating. If we were to build a new boat today- should it be a monohull or multi? Interesting question after two big AC efforts have led 80% of sailors wishing the event back to monohulls.

 

 

Short answer: STORMS 

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Tri's are really better in many ways. But they sort of fall in the middle of both the pros and cons. Feel great at the helm and are much more responsive due to a bit more heel than a cat. Even more expensive due to THREE hulls to build. Usually more deck space than a cat but at the cost of interior. Still a lot of potential for tris but you just have to accept the realities. 

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2 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Tri's are really better in many ways. But they sort of fall in the middle of both the pros and cons. Feel great at the helm and are much more responsive due to a bit more heel than a cat. Even more expensive due to THREE hulls to build. Usually more deck space than a cat but at the cost of interior. Still a lot of potential for tris but you just have to accept the realities. 

Ya can't build a Huge Tri out of CDX and drywall screws and sail to Hawaii  

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

RKoch,

     I wanted to do the same 'buy a grounded cat' and pull those stub keels (they plug right into sockets in the hull!) and do some nice daggers. I think I heard about your bosses conversion. So would he be interested in selling it? I'm sure that there are a lot of candidates for such a conversion down in the VI right now and have been thinking of going down and working for the boat surveyors in the hopes of finding the right boat. Glad I procrastinated and am not on my way there now with Maria bearing down. 

    I delivered a cat built in St Kitts that was a poor example of a Shuttleworth knockoff. It had a huge ugly box of a cabin with lots of heavy glass and the boat was way down on its lines especially by the stern. A wave would enter the space between the hulls and then close off the exit just ahead of the back edge of the bridgedeck and it would spit water and spray a couple of boatlengths out the front! Sounded more like a mortar going off rather than a mere grenade. The head was at the aft end of the deckhouse and was a 'Newick Offshore WC' meaning it was a simple outhouse style seat with a hole under it to the open ocean. If one was sitting on the head when a wave concussed under the bridgedeck, you either got a salt water enema and your willy would come flying up from tucked between your legs and flail about due to the air pressure like one of those inflatable dudes you see at store openings.

Image result for inflatable penis

 

      The drains for the head sink and shower stall were the same way and there was always a spattering of mold and algae on the overhead from the exhaust of the underwing. The skippers GF went into the head one day when the 'sneeze machine' was in action and I started to caution her but the Skip motioned to me to zip my lip and it wasn't long before we heard her scream of surprise and disgust. We really shouldn't have laughed and I think the rest of that delivery was in celibacy for the skipper...

Former boss passed away about 4 years ago, and gf sold the boat. Keeping it up would have been a big burden for her, and I don't think she would have enjoyed cruising it without her SO.

Ex-boss bought the boat in the early 00's, on the beach in Bahamas. Something like $5K. Aft 25% of port hull missing, inc motor. No rig. He hired a guy to rebuild it, who stayed aboard the H37, which they also used to ferry materials over. Patched it up, got it back to Tampa where it got painted, new rig, replacement motor (used), and fitted out. He saved about $100K on buying a used boat, continued to tinker and improve it. Keep in mind he was getting industry wholesale prices on everything. Still wasn't 100% complete when gf sold it at a discounted price. Sailed a bit better with the daggerboards than a typical condomaran. The first set of d-boards were foam core and heavy glass...he broke one in that Isla Mujeres Race, so I designed him replacements with a laminated fir core and lighter glass laminate.  I didn't design or build the first set of sails which were cheap laminates, but did do the second m&J of dacron and the third set of carbon. Last set also included a lightweight jibtop- style reacher, and a heavy dacron storm staysail on a removeable stay. He liked the boat a lot for coastal cruising, but a couple of offshore trips in it disappointed him in its bluewater capability.

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18 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

Ya can't build a Huge Tri out of CDX and drywall screws and sail to Hawaii  

You can't build a Huge Cat out of CDX and drywall screws and sail to Hawaii, either.

The hot rod looks pretty good, though!

He started with this:

hotrod_before_1024px.thumb.jpg.492cb60430456325bcdb465e713c25f8.jpg

And ended up with this in front of his house in Hawaii:

hotrod_after_1024px.thumb.jpg.9181c7434fef1f90fbfaa7d50fa6dec6.jpg

I'd call that a win!

 

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26 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Tri's are really better in many ways. But they sort of fall in the middle of both the pros and cons. Feel great at the helm and are much more responsive due to a bit more heel than a cat. Even more expensive due to THREE hulls to build. Usually more deck space than a cat but at the cost of interior. Still a lot of potential for tris but you just have to accept the realities. 

I've sailed a small offshore tri on several races. It tacked and handled like a monohull, which I appreciated. The speed was fun, though the motion left a bit to be desired, imo. They would be a nearly ideal shoal-water coastal cruiser. Not much interior space, but if you only sleep below and do 'living' on deck it's acceptable for short periods of time. Haven't sailed an offshore cat. I've sailed beach cats a bit...they're fun to daysail, but slow tacking takes out the tactical fun when racing.  Ones with boards do better than board-less ones.

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Muitihulls dominate the top of the performance pyramid - I mean, cool as it is, wtf would you build Commanche when an Orma 60 can smoke it without the motor running 24/7 - but it's a pyramid, and the pointy end of it isn't that big. Foils - which have similar design criteria like extreme light weight etc - will just push this paradigm further, the amazing IMOCA boats being an exception.

In the non-extreme performance realm, it's no contest. There are places - like the Caribbean charter fleet - where cruising cats make sense due to accommodations and their very pleasant behaviour at anchor, and there is a small group of people like my buddy in Tahiti who prefers the performance multis because he wants the passage-making speed, but he has literally decades of experience sailing across oceans on multis, and is the exception not the rule in terms of sailing experience. For most sailors, the self righting aspect of monos combined with the ability to carry stuff without destroying performance will win out.

 

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Charter cats are popular because they check most of the boxes for folks wanting a 1 or 2 week vacation in the tropics.  Multiple staterooms means a group can share the costs.  Tradewinds mean that the light air performance challenges can be overlooked.  Moorage/storage and maintenance are someone else's worries.  So they work in this application.  

Since most primary cruising routes are downwind, sliding a barge downwind is pretty easy and even more comfy than rolling all the way to one's destination on a monohull.

There aren't many new cruising boats being built today that don't spoil a few $100k notes.  It isn't just cats that are expensive--they all are if new builds.

For N. America, the infrastructure is not kind to multihulls.  Berthing, hauling, storing, are all set up for monohulls.  The large, inexpensive, used market also prolongs the domination of monohulls as well.

I still like monohulls but I've pretty badly 'ruined' the Admiral such that her trying to nap in the cockpit or work on her computer underway is pretty limited.  It just isn't as comfy as what we're doing now--well protected from wind, sun, spray or rain but still not 'down in the hole'.  Seasickness in a monohull cave is imminent for her and yet hasn't been an issue anywhere near the same on our cat.

We sail together, we work while sailing. We couldn't do that on most monohulls---and we actually do pass most boats our size and even larger, even upwind, so performance doesn't always have to be compromised on a cat, jus' sayin'.

 

 

 

 

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...my old 35 tri 1992 - sleeps 5 eats 8 - standing room - can be sailed single handed - has a NOR rating of 1,47 - with self-tacking jib - a genoa gets it up til 1,55 or so...higher that the swedish Maxi 100 that sometimes show up in the Færder race - so at least the measurers think its fast - and under sail more comfort that the 100... 

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2 hours ago, DDW said:

When you hav'ta say your 35'er has standing head room, you know its a tri....

...when the rating is highter than a maxi 100 thats not obvious..

 

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cause they're sketchier and more stressful when the conditions get nautical. most people want a huge slab of lead underneath them.

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Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm ? was the question,,

If one looks at it from boatbuilding there is certainly a gale coming.!

In Beneteau group latest published figures Lagoon cats are over 45% of sailboats sold in T/O (including Jeanneau and Beneteau) boats) while rival Fountaine-Pajot is very close to Lagoon,, Add the South-African yards + others like Outremer or Sunreef ....... multihulls are a very sizeable chunk of  cruising sailboats sold.

Sorry to shout; handling mistake

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to the charter trade only / mostly........they are again,  butt fucking ugly ,   and sail like a bus.....a double decker at that.......just total crap from the dark ages of  south pacific  wandering ........ mostly cheap crap  floating homes for welfare cases  with beards  and no sense of the passage of time from 1960.......yes the frog versions are expensive but they are corporate owned for charter where non sailors want lots of  bunks  and  laying about space whilst anchored  or drifting  downwind.     Thank God NZL  has dumped them from AC consideration.......total crap.

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31 minutes ago, Rejected said:

just total crap from the dark ages of  south pacific  wandering

Hah, hah!  :lol:  The "dark ages" when Pacific islanders were sailing circles around Captain Cook?

http://pacificproa.com/flyproa.html

Quote

"Flying Proa" of the Marianas Islands
from Canoes of Oceania
 by A.C. Haddon and James Hornell
Bishop Museum Press, Honolulu, Hawaii

Volume 1, p. 413..415 - An account by Baron George Anson in the year 1748.

The name "flying proa" given to these vessels is owing to the swiftness with which they sail... From some rude estimations made by our people of the velocity with which they crossed the horizon at a distance, while we lay at Tinian, I cannot help believing that with a brisk tradewind they will run near 20 miles an hour, which, though greatly short of what the Spaniards report of them, is yet a prodigious degree of swiftness...

http://pacificproa.com/micronesia/flying_proas_of_the_Ladrone_Islands.html

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9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The number of multi designers who have gone offshore in their own creations and never to be seen again is somewhat off-putting.

Here's a surprising success. Tony Smith and son sail their Gemini 105 MC across the North Atlantic through gales. 

 

It's also a good choice for the Chesapeake, IMHO, where it was born. Shallow draft, fits in a standard 14 foot slip, good performance off the wind and acceptable upwind with centerboards. The new models suck upwind with fixed stub keels. Someone should revisit the original concept and improve it.

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37 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Hah, hah!  :lol:  The "dark ages" when Pacific islanders were sailing circles around Captain Cook?

http://pacificproa.com/flyproa.html

http://pacificproa.com/micronesia/flying_proas_of_the_Ladrone_Islands.html

Yes Proa......absolutely........I remember fondly the Pacific Islanders visiting England in their silly little dug out canoes......definitely better than Cook who only sailed around the world......typical  multi hull  nonsense from the leading drooler........Proa  the  slightly tilted ......

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8 hours ago, SeaGul said:
10 hours ago, DDW said:

When you hav'ta say your 35'er has standing head room, you know its a tri....

...when the rating is highter than a maxi 100 thats not obvious..

 

Even more obvious, actually. 

There is no doubt that multihulls are fast in stripped down race form. Strip down even further (like sailboards) they are faster. Even further (like foiling kite boards) even faster still. One of the main problems seems to be that for a most cruising couples, there is a certain minimum weight load required, in small sizes this is too much for a multihull to carry and maintain its advantage of light weight. One either needs to leave many desirable things on the dock, or buy a much longer boat. 

 

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42 minutes ago, DDW said:

Even more obvious, actually. 

There is no doubt that multihulls are fast in stripped down race form. Strip down even further (like sailboards) they are faster. Even further (like foiling kite boards) even faster still. One of the main problems seems to be that for a most cruising couples, there is a certain minimum weight load required, in small sizes this is too much for a multihull to carry and maintain its advantage of light weight. One either needs to leave many desirable things on the dock, or buy a much longer boat. 

 

Length is everything.  Personally, I'd  really like to have my boat 10' longer with no more interior than what I've got now.  Layout wise, it's currently a longer version of the original 30' Mainecat.  The extra 8' gets a bit more elbow room and far better performance.  Another 10' get's me the ability to carry the fuel and water I 'need/want' which I've sacrificed. And perhaps a larger dinghy.  I'd keep the beam the same, the slightly extra weight would enable a bit more rig without too much additional risk.  It wouldn't cost me anymore to berth as I'm already in a 57' slip....:wacko:

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Hah, hah!  :lol:  The "dark ages" when Pacific islanders were sailing circles around Captain Cook?

http://pacificproa.com/flyproa.html

http://pacificproa.com/micronesia/flying_proas_of_the_Ladrone_Islands.html

Yes, they're good for reaching from island to island in the trade winds. Nothing's changed in 250 years, except for condos being perched on top.

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57 minutes ago, DDW said:

Even more obvious, actually. 

There is no doubt that multihulls are fast in stripped down race form. Strip down even further (like sailboards) they are faster. Even further (like foiling kite boards) even faster still. One of the main problems seems to be that for a most cruising couples, there is a certain minimum weight load required, in small sizes this is too much for a multihull to carry and maintain its advantage of light weight. One either needs to leave many desirable things on the dock, or buy a much longer boat. 

 

The problem is the opposite - its too much space in a multi - spec a brigdedeck cat... so you can really take a lot of things. A little self restrain and planning - not a big problem.

And if you have 4 doubles with their own bathrooms - you must have water and tanks - but its a luxury problem. 

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2 hours ago, Grey Dawn said:

Here's a surprising success. Tony Smith and son sail their Gemini 105 MC across the North Atlantic through gales. 

 

I recall reading about this a few years ago and they story line was that he said he'd never do it again. Apparently, low bridgedeck clearance made for a very rough ride. 

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1 hour ago, RKoch said:

Yes, they're good for reaching from island to island in the trade winds. Nothing's changed in 250 years, except for condos being perched on top.

250 years, there's a long time to gain enough traction to show the world their dominance over monohulls...

 

Proa and Doug Lord..... Separated at Birth?

 

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17 minutes ago, hobot said:

250 years, there's a long time to gain enough traction to show the world their dominance over monohulls...

 

Proa and Doug Lord..... Separated at Birth?

 

True believers. Obviously it's a conspiracy to lock up this superior technology alongside the 100mpg carburetor. 

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2 hours ago, kinardly said:

I recall reading about this a few years ago and they story line was that he said he'd never do it again. Apparently, low bridgedeck clearance made for a very rough ride. 

That boat is the LAST multi I would be picking for that trip.

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Next time I do a charter I will likely rent a cat. Not because they sail better they don;t.Ugly? you bet! Don't go to weather? yup! But because of the room a condocat provides.

Last time in BVI's we had a Bendy toy (43 feet) with completely blown sails, shit hardware that would not/sail point worth a shit. So two boats that don't sail well, albeit for different reasons, so I figure get the condo  you ain't sailing worth shit anyways and you will have more room while you cry in rum about it.

Also about the upwind cat sailing "lesson" did any body spot of properly trimmed sail in that video ??? Trim looked shit to me car way forward going up hill then he moved it back and it was back winded.....need I go on??? 

.  

  

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3 hours ago, kinardly said:

I recall reading about this a few years ago and they story line was that he said he'd never do it again. Apparently, low bridgedeck clearance made for a very rough ride. 

Yep. The bridgedeck slams even in the Chesapeake chop. But I think the concept is valid and, with improvements, should make for a well-performing and comfortable catamaran. Keep the 14 foot beam so it fits in a standard slip. Keep the extendable foils for upwind sailing and shallow draft. Keep the retractable drive leg(s) but improve the mechanics. Raise the bridgedeck or eliminate it with tramps. Other ideas?

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