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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
JBiermann

In Over Our Head

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  Anyone know how to sail a Mumm 36?  Because we just bought one!  It seemed like the right think to do after reading the forums and being specifically warned that they're difficult to sail to their rating and chew up inexperienced amateur racers. That's us!  We were loosing our maintenance war with an aging J/30 and thought, how hard could it be?!  We're having a blast, sailing her everywhere and trying to grab every race possible as the season winds down.  The fun aside, and perhaps not surprisingly, we're not doing very well.  We have the polars and just seem to be .3-.5 of a kt. slow no matter what we try.

  There are a few caveats.  The mast jack did not come with the boat and we don't have a rod loose gauge yet (or a guide to what the numbers should be if we did) so rig tuning has been a lot of tacking back and forth and making slight adjustments to keep the rig straight (we can't seem to agree on the straight part either...). When we race, we spend a lot of time saying, "well this isn't working, lets try x", and, "well x certainly didn't work, time to move on to Y".  We're generally finishing races alongside the J105's so we're definitely doing something, likely a great many things, wrong.

  I was hoping someone out there who might have spent time on this slightly geriatric racing machine would be able to impart a few tips in terms of trim and general racing.  We've been generally sticking the main doctrine of higher traveler, more camber, more twist on light/choppy days and flatter leach, lower traveler, when the wind starts to build.  We keep the no.1 close and leach closed in the light stuff and closer and more open as wind comes up.  We pull on backstay, outhaul when the wind is climbing and keeping them soft when it's not. Definitely pull harder on the running stays when there is wind but probably not as hard as we should be (I'm terrified of the 6,500 lbs mark as we don't have a load cell). Not exactly sure how/when to be using the vang, been playing it like I would on the 30.  Should we transition to dip pole when spin jibing?  There is definitely great info on the form (we have our tacking choreography down!) but cant seem to find just a general tuning/trim guide for this boat.

  We understand that it will take time to learn this boat and sail her efficiently, if we ever figure it out at all.  I'm aware that this post will probably attract all kinds of hate for us newer folks in over our head with too much boat and trying to stage a racing campaign.  That's cool, I hope that I might be as cool/experienced as you someday.  If anyone else would be so kind as to throw out a pointer or two, we'd be grateful.

-Josh

 

 

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Tamarak Quixie.jpg

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I have a question.... what the fuck is your bowman wearing on his head? Something about it does not look right.

OTOH glad you are having fun. I've always thought the Mumm36 looked like a cool boat.

FB- Doug

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Very cool.  I enjoyed reading your story and wish you luck.  I am sure you will improve and move up the fleet as time goes by.  Just from looking at the photos you posted, could the sails by chance be a bit old?  Main looks a bit full.  Maybe it is just not enough luff tension.

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From your explanation I would say the biggest factor is rig tune, so get yourselves a mast Jack, loos gague & the tuning guide and bring everything back to base setting & start there.

With the rig fiddling you're doing are you taking notes on what you do so you can bring it back to a relatively known base? Chances are you may be throwing things more out of whack.

The other side could be as well as rig setup you're still learning what makes the boat go and how to change gears effectively

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Simple, just put a sign across the front of the cockpit that says this

"This is a Mumm 36 class Sailboat

If you are not on the side of the yacht, what the F%$# are you doing"

That will fix most problems.

 

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Not sure from your description if you are using the runners right.  Running backstays are not just pulled on to a rough tension.  They are used to set the correct amount of luff curve in the headsail.  Find out from your sailmaker how much luff curve (or forestay sag) was built into the sails and then have your bowman check the sag while you do your test sail upwind before the start.  Gradually tighten the running backstay until you get the correct amount of sag.  Make sure the running backstays are calibrated somehow so you can determine the setting to use for the first upwind and then use it after the start.  

Until you get used to what setting the boat likes in a given wind condition, have your bowman check for the correct sag any time you feel slow or the wind changes a lot.  Too much running backstay is a real boatspeed killer.  Too little runner tension kills your pointing ability.

Mumm 36's are extremely close winded - you should be able to outpoint just about everyone in your fleet.

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What’s the black band at the top of the mast for? Looks like showing how far down the main is or how hi the main isn’t.  Chute seems out of its wind range. Or are those just delivery sails?

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Those photos are from the MS regatta this year.  We were setup for super light conditions and then the wind came up pretty abruptly on our way in.  We were carrying that light air spin right to to very edge of a beam reach which is why it might look funny.  That main itself is in great shape material wise, seems there is an opinion that it's shape is off?  I'll post a couple more from that race and we have a bunch of photos on our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/smalldogracing  Our backup UK laminate is coming apart pretty drastically so we use that as the delivery sail.  It's time for a new main, we have a great locker of foresails in good condition.

Really like the idea of marking the runners for different conditions.  Trouble is finding the "right" forestay sag.  A lot of the successful boats around here swear by the "loose as hell" method even when the wind is up so it all depends on who you talk to.

 

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46 minutes ago, JBiermann said:

Those photos are from the MS regatta this year.  We were setup for super light conditions and then the wind came up pretty abruptly on our way in.  We were carrying that light air spin right to to very edge of a beam reach which is why it might look funny.  That main itself is in great shape material wise, seems there is an opinion that it's shape is off?  I'll post a couple more from that race and we have a bunch of photos on our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/smalldogracing  Our backup UK laminate is coming apart pretty drastically so we use that as the delivery sail.  It's time for a new main, we have a great locker of foresails in good condition.

Really like the idea of marking the runners for different conditions.  Trouble is finding the "right" forestay sag.  A lot of the successful boats around here swear by the "loose as hell" method even when the wind is up so it all depends on who you talk to.

 

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And a lot of guys out there like getting tied up and fucked with a strapon. Doesn't mean it works for everyone. Especially not a fractional IMS upwind machine. 

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1 hour ago, JBiermann said:

Those photos are from the MS regatta this year.  We were setup for super light conditions and then the wind came up pretty abruptly on our way in.  We were carrying that light air spin right to to very edge of a beam reach which is why it might look funny.  That main itself is in great shape material wise, seems there is an opinion that it's shape is off?  I'll post a couple more from that race and we have a bunch of photos on our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/smalldogracing  Our backup UK laminate is coming apart pretty drastically so we use that as the delivery sail.  It's time for a new main, we have a great locker of foresails in good condition.

Really like the idea of marking the runners for different conditions.  Trouble is finding the "right" forestay sag.  A lot of the successful boats around here swear by the "loose as hell" method even when the wind is up so it all depends on who you talk to.

 

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These boats are likely quite weight sensitive.  Unless you are in trouble of broaching and need weight aft to keep the rudder in the water, I would try to concentrate crew weight amidships fore and aft.  In the bottom picture, unless you are just out for a fun sail, there shouldn't be two people standing near the transom.

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Lot of boats respond well to weight on the rail as well.

Favorite Mumm 36 story is a friend had one and it was delaminating up near the bow near the hull/deck joint.

He calls Barely Careful to ask about it and, after a couple of minutes, BC says "Wait.  You aren't keeping this boat in the WATER are you?"

Classic.

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Looking at your pictures you really have something against luff tension on the main. Your draft is way to far back. There's winches on the boat for a reason, put the main halyard on one.

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Yeah, crew weight distribution can definitely be improved, still stacking folks like I was on the J/30.  Luff tension was so loose because we started sailing 4-5 kt's of breeze.  When is sprang up to 12-14, we neglected to correct for it.

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We were able to achieve some speed by picking our bow up when it was blowing.  Surfing down waves at 12 kts in last years Monhegan Island race and kept the rudder in the water to fight off the round up.  Point being that's why I'm bringing my questions here.  Just because something worked for us one time doesn't mean it's right, hence trying to benefit from a larger and more informed perspective.

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I used to sail one of these things many many moons ago and they are indeed tricky. I would concur with all the comments about weight distribution and what your main looks like. The other thing I remember is that as main trimmer that thing needed constant adjustment, and I mean constant, I had muscles on my muscles after doing a season, it was very sensitive to small changes.

If getting a load cell isn't going to happen any time soon you could always try the basic method of getting everything back to base (as suggested by a very sensible person above) and then getting your black sharpie and at least having a couple of basic marks on the lines (like your runners) so you have something to clarify how much tension you've put on each time. It won't solve all your issues but will at least mean that you are being consistent, and consistent is your friend when you're getting used to a new boat. You can then take on the other very sensible point above about keeping notes on what you changed when, and in what wind strength. I'm sure you'll start to see some patterns.

Good luck and enjoy - I had a great time sailing one of those things back in 2002/03, just remember to hang on down wind in a blow, she went like stink but was a bit of a handful!

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Lean on the headsail telltales (don't pinch), and let the keel work, that will get you height to weather

We never did dip poles, even in heavy air, always end for end.

Hike out lots.

And get the mast jack!

Also, the runner is the gas pedal, and you have to play it constantly.

Set it slightly softer than optimal coming out of a tack, and then wind it on as you come up to speed.  Then wind it on even more.  And then play it in the puffs and lulls.

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RESPECT THE SLOT! make sure the jib leech isn't closed off too much choking the flow between the jib and backside of the main. I sail on a farr 40 and can attest that a closed slot is very slow upwind. jib in-haulers and car position are adjusted as much as the sheets on the jib. RESPECT THE SLOT!

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Sitting at a keyboard looking at pics it appears that you are trying to 'bag' the sails to add power in the light. Mylar sails do not react to a lot of loose halyard/outhaul like an old Dacron sail would, the shape is more 'built-in' and adjustments are much smaller. Snug them up and your adjustments are going to be more minute, an inch, not inches, of adjustment from tight to loose. As noted, check with the sailmaker on how much they should be. A little wrinkle is OK, but it should not be 4-6" of wrinkle on halyard or outhaul tension.

And main/runner tension is paramount on this type of boat/rig.

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You have to go fast before you can go high.  

Your idea of 'scary loads' is likely not calibrated for a Mumm 36.

There's nothing you can do to a main with the draft that far aft that will ever make it fast upwind.  Sorry.  

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Really, you buy a boat and then ask how to sail it?

A long time friend bought a Farr/Mumm 30 from NY and had it trailer'ed out to So Cal. Very competitive in Buoy Racing.

This is the most powerful 30' boat I have sailed against. Though I think it's RLC and OW ratings are off base, because it is a Sym boat and not a spit boat.
I think that PHRF could help the Farr 30 by fixing it's rating now that it is not a Professionally sailed boat. Pro's fuck everything up.

But that is probably a pipe dream.

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Agree with the weight thing.  You'll pick up a half of a knot shooing people out of the cockpit.  Most of the time the knuckle should be in the water half the time.  Upwind no more than 23 degrees of heel.  Super tweakey so mark everything and take notes for repeatability.

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10 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Really, you buy a boat and then ask how to sail it?

A long time friend bought a Farr/Mumm 30 from NY and had it trailer'ed out to So Cal. Very competitive in Buoy Racing.

This is the most powerful 30' boat I have sailed against. Though I think it's RLC and OW ratings are off base, because it is a Sym boat and not a spit boat.
I think that PHRF could help the Farr 30 by fixing it's rating now that it is not a Professionally sailed boat. Pro's fuck everything up.

But that is probably a pipe dream.

Sweet.  Any thoughts on the Mumm 36?

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A mumm36 should be pointing higher than Everyone upwind and slight faster. Downwind the lighter boats will sneak up on you and likely pass you (mumm-farr30, melges 32,etc) in phrf. 

Dont fall into the trap of crew saying (while up wind)"wow we are higher and faster" and then downwind being depressed because lighter boats are faster. The point is, make your gains upwind. 

Looks like you sail against an IMX38 - another upwind machine that likes to go dead down wind on a run. Be to windward of them at the starts or slightly ahead if lower at the start and pinch them off.  You likely can't out foot them if you start low and slow  

I think the mumm36 also likes to go dead down as it's fastest.  But not certain  kite likes to be rotated by windward heal

 

crew position is key  - 

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21 hours ago, Lono said:

Downwind, fraculate the hell out of the mast. Jib HAlyard to strop, grind the mast forward.

Well, loosen the backstay & runners first. But yeah, getting the rig way forward is better.

On the hat thing- a boat I used to sail on had a running gag similar, we had duck hats and gorilla masks and a few other funnies.

On the basic sailing- get the sail trim in the ballpark, have your trimmers WORK the sheets and the traveler, and get the crew weight into the right place. IMHO there is little use in farting around with the fine tune adjustments when the basics are not close.

FB- Doug

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Irregardless of your results, you guys (and gal?) are sailing a great looking boat with a solid pedigree and appear to be having a blast doing it.  

Winning!

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On 28/09/2017 at 2:19 AM, JBiermann said:

we neglected to correct for it.

yeh - well 'neglecting to correct' is going to hurt you on something like the mumm.

 

You need to always be trimming not just the usual controls, but the runners (forestay sag) especially..  then don't forget that a crank on the runners will upset your leech tension, so start again in that trim cycle.

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 9:06 AM, JBiermann said:

A lot of the successful boats around here swear by the "loose as hell" method even when the wind is up so it all depends on who you talk to.

I wouldn't listen to any of that.

I was told 'no one is setting the world on fire racing in Maine'

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18 minutes ago, mgs said:

I wouldn't listen to any of that.

I was told 'no one is setting the world on fire racing in Maine'

You would be correct

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that elusive .3-.5 knots you're missing could be tired sails, crew weight, a bad driver, uncalibrated electronics or any combination thereof.   Here's a good article on the (non)credibility of your system:  http://www.sailingworld.com/thinking-beyond-instruments?src=SOC&dom=fb

The mumm 36's were the grand prix shit for many years, getting the last ounce of speed outta them is a well documented process, start out by borrowing a mast jack if you have to and just get the rig to 'base tune' per the guide to eliminate a big variable.

See if you can find any less used-up race sails over at this place:  https://mastheadsailinggear.com

Lastly, you can't get your rig to base tune (or any tune)  without a basic LOOS RT-10 rod tuning gauge.  Would you believe my current boat came with like 4 of 'em.   PM me if you wanna buy one.

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49 minutes ago, 1sailor said:

that elusive .3-.5 knots you're missing could be tired sails, crew weight, a bad driver, uncalibrated electronics or any combination thereof.   Here's a good article on the (non)credibility of your system:  http://www.sailingworld.com/thinking-beyond-instruments?src=SOC&dom=fb

The mumm 36's were the grand prix shit for many years, getting the last ounce of speed outta them is a well documented process, start out by borrowing a mast jack if you have to and just get the rig to 'base tune' per the guide to eliminate a big variable.

See if you can find any less used-up race sails over at this place:  https://mastheadsailinggear.com

Lastly, you can't get your rig to base tune (or any tune)  without a basic LOOS RT-10 rod tuning gauge.  Would you believe my current boat came with like 4 of 'em.   PM me if you wanna buy one.

Sounds like the previous "speed" guy on your boat didn't want to waste time moving them from upper to lower and side to side when he tuned the rig. Just drop one on each shroud at the base of the mast and turn turnbuckles until they're all correct!

 

 

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Looks like the kite is sheeted to the rail mid-ships rather than all the way to the stern.  And both pics of the kite look like its strapped down way too low.  Move the sheets back, float it up higher and lift the clew to match.

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:18 PM, Kenny Dumas said:

Looks like the kite is sheeted to the rail mid-ships rather than all the way to the stern.  And both pics of the kite look like its strapped down way too low.  Move the sheets back, float it up higher and lift the clew to match.

I think that is the lazy guy hanging down, could be pulling down on it some.

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