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505 7772 - Upgrade & Refit

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At the Park City Sailing Association we have 505 7772 which was donated a few years ago. We got a little sailing in on it this season and it performed well but it's clear that the boat is stuck in time from a couple of decades ago. The previous owner began to upgrade the boat to a double pole system but stopped so we're going to complete that job among others and bring this boat back to life. The end game is to sail it at the 2018 505 North Americans in San Francisco.

Project list:

Upgrade to a carbon boom/double pole system

Sex change to go from a bag boat to a launcher

Move CB reinforcement forward for an HA board

Reinforce rudder area to strengthen for San Fran winds.

Cut mast partner and move it back about 1.5"

Install trap twings 

Refinish wood mast step 

Awlgrip deck

Re-rig boat to bring it up to speed and to reduce weight

 

 

505 7772 6.jpg

505 7772 5.jpg

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WCB Is that a Waterrat? I own 7610 and much of those have already been done to mine, some by me some by previous

Mine is also overweight, how are you planning on taking weight out while adding the launcher?

I also need to move the partners, I can only rake to 25-1 and that is tight to the partners with the ram on. Not sure I can get 1.5" extra.  Looking at boats that already had that surgery I think you only need 1" +/- to rake back to 24-6

Looking to get new rudder fittings this winter, I need to call Larry for the right size pins. 

I installed the twings, double poles and grip on the deck. I went with a stick on rather than Awlgrip. I used Hydroturf which is much like Raptor deck but cheaper and comes in colors. Has 2 years on it and is still in good shape. 

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Yes, it's a Waterat.  It was created as 7352 but was renumbered to 7772 due to a number conflict.  You can see the original number on the aft end of the trunk and the updated number on the transom.  Kind of entertaining.  It's a foam core 'rat.

The big weight reduction will be in the refit.  There is a lot of wire, not to mention hardware that is oversized and heavy.  It may not weight 127.4 when done by we'll try.

If you go to aps they have the Sea Sure fittings and the pin is pretty standard.  It should be the 5/16 if memory serves.

Awlgrip is to take the place of the tired gelcoat, nothing to do with the grip.  For the trapeze we'll fit on new grip from either Raptordeck or Sail22.

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I was told to get the lower fitting from Larry, he uses an upsize pintel and matching gudgeon, the top will be seasure. Going to take off the stainless backer and replace with G-10, should reduce transom weight. 

Took 90% of the wire off mine last year when we re-rigged the shrouds/rake and have been replacing old bullet blocks with T2 or carbos but still over weight. 

Boom may be next still aluminum and wire inside for OH etc. 

I don't have gelcoat on the deck, painted epoxy for the most part. That was done during the launcher conversion. I think the CB trunk is Gelcoat. 

 

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That's a great looking boat!  Have a look around inside the tanks, there may be some huge G-10 backing plates you can take out.  I had 8084, I pulled something like 5 lbs of G-10 out of the seat tanks.  I think that was leftover from the day when you were limited to the amount of corrector weights you could put in the boat.  My floorboards had thick G-10 panels in them too, just ahead of the aft thwart.  Larry told me to have fun grinding those out.  Never had to go that far.  Removing all the wire and rerigging with a new boom and pole setup made a big difference too.  Give Larry a call, he is always helpful with this stuff.  Good luck!

Rob W.

 

BTW, and you probably know this, but 90% of the time you get more benefit from sailing the boat than working on it!  Of course I'm still learning that lesson myself.  Have fun

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41 minutes ago, rwaterman said:

That's a great looking boat!  Have a look around inside the tanks, there may be some huge G-10 backing plates you can take out.  I had 8084, I pulled something like 5 lbs of G-10 out of the seat tanks.  I think that was leftover from the day when you were limited to the amount of corrector weights you could put in the boat.  My floorboards had thick G-10 panels in them too, just ahead of the aft thwart.  Larry told me to have fun grinding those out.  Never had to go that far.  Removing all the wire and rerigging with a new boom and pole setup made a big difference too.  Give Larry a call, he is always helpful with this stuff.  Good luck!

Rob W.

 

BTW, and you probably know this, but 90% of the time you get more benefit from sailing the boat than working on it!  Of course I'm still learning that lesson myself.  Have fun

Rob, thanks for the tip on the backing plates. My brother has 8265 and when it went in for some work, they pulled out huge backing plates as well. 7772 is in the garage so maybe I'll go stick a cell phone in the ports and take some pics.

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A couple of large backing bars, looks like mahogany, no gift of heavy g10 plates but they may still come out.

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As a owner of foam rat that is nearly on weight, sound like you are on the right track.  Still have an alloy boom.

 

Sex change to go from a bag boat to a launcher (cutting the bulk head opening gets some of the weight back.)

HA boards also save weight. (not weighing the boat with a rudder screws with the measures heads!)

Install trap twings ( which mast?)

Awlgrip deck  ( your deck looks way better than mine already!  Watch the weight here.)

Another thing to look at:  The shroud anchors at the deck and keel-son.  The bolts are getting old, I broke one at the keel-son, big bang during a gybe, rig stayed up.  Went through the deck anchors this year as I had rust stains showing under the deck, 4 bolts are 1/4-20  the others are #10s one of the #10 was sheared.  Heat and patients are your friends in getting these out.

Good luck with the project, see you on the bay!

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Thanks for the tips, Another.

I like your tip on leaving the rudder off...too funny.  

Likely going with the auto-traps on a Proctor D.  I may switch to a Superspar M2 but trying to keep the cost down.  

The deck is fine looking from 20ft but up close, it's worth refinishing.  I'm thinking a long sanding session to take as much gelcoat off as possible.  

I'll take a look at the shroud bases, thanks for that tip.  I was looking at a lot of bolts that look pretty tired.  I just pulled the twings off tonight with some old fittings.  

Looking forward to the bay!  

Started the project by removing the transom fittings.  Getting rid of the stern bailer cones of silence for carbon/kevlar plates.  

I think I'll leave the bottom alone for 2018, maybe a project after the NAs.

 

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I helped measure at the Annapolis 505 World's last week. Most boats had corrector lead. Others were 4 kilos over the 127.4 minimum. The winner's boat was spot on minimum. Oh, and one boat hit something and wracked the lower gudgeon. To change rudders had to weigh each.

Dave Ellis

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That makes me feel a little better, Dave, to know that some boats were a little over.  I was told that this boat was over but I don't know for sure.  I have to look to see if I have the measurement certificate.  It will definitely need a re-weigh.  

Pulled this bad boy out. Lifting pin is going away.

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10 hours ago, another 505 sailor said:

Most of the modern rigged Hamlins and older Waterats weigh 130 to 131.5 kg when we weigh at the bigger regattas. Not bad for 30 to 40 year old boats.

Mine was 128kg (8265) with 1.2kg of correctors in it at Worlds this year!

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The work continues.  Rudder fittings removed, new G10 backing material received today, new Seasure fittings on the way, new carbon/kevlar panels for the flaps, nylon webbing on the way to create hinges.

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Another big project that's getting started is lengthening of the mast partners to allow for more rake.  First job was to cut off the aft end of the current partners.

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For the spinnaker poles - Where do you buy the end fittings, or do you make them?  

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1 hour ago, PaulK said:

For the spinnaker poles - Where do you buy the end fittings, or do you make them?  

If you get the poles from Waterat they come with them.

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This is interesting topic.

I have a plastic Lindsay 8352 which weighed 129,5 kg with 2,1 kg of lead, alu spinnakerpole, alu boom and heavy foils (rudder 4,2 kg, keel 7 kg).

After weighing we have removed quite a lot of old fittings and painted the deck. We intend to convert it to double poles for the next season and perhaps change foils as well – interesting to see where we end weight-wise.

I believe that double pole conversion will make sailing so much easier. No more screwed gybes, I've had my share of guys not staying in the fork...

Good luck with 7772!

 

8352.tiff

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8352 looks good!  

I'm looking forward to new awlgrip on the deck.  That's a Spring project though.  Right now I'm racing the temperature (it's been snowing here) to get a few structural projects buttoned up before it gets too cold.  I have a HA rudder, two actually, and the newest one should be light enough to save some weight on the boat.  The switch to an HA centerboard should help a lot too.

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Worked w/Awlgrip here this past spring on our J/36. Make sure to get new filter cartridges for your mask - the vapors are nasty. If you recoat fast enough you don't have to sand & solvent wash between them. We rolled & tipped. (It was outdoors and didn't want to spray and have half of it blow away.) Looks great.   

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We did a roller and dip job too. It looks good, but not perfect in close up. Anyway, it's way better than it used to be. Our boat didn't have gelcoat, but we did sand the old paint quite a bit. Had to be careful though, not to cut to kevlar. We used International Perfection as it's more readily available around here.

Racing the temperatures... that's the difficulty with boats. When it's warm, you want to sail, not fix them. Good luck!

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I think I'm going to have a local car body shop spray for me.  I'll do the prep, and likely tape it off too, then hand it over to them to spray in a booth.  As you said, it likely won't be perfect but at least it will be way better than it is now.

Venntim, where did you get that non-skid?  I like the shape.

Rudder backing plates are on with the old pintle/gudgeon.  The new ones are on the way so these are only there for fitting.  I have to figure out why it keeps rotating the images on me.

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Thanks for the link.  I've saved that for the Spring so I can put some nice grip on the boat.  I had been thinking about just a straight piece along the gunwale but that has a nice look to it.

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I believe double poles are a must.  I've had people out who have never been on a sailboat and used the spinnaker in 15+kts. "Here pull that red line till you can't pull anymore" Pole is set.  It's great racing but also when I'm just messing around single handed. On my old boat (8351) I just took the aluminum pole from my new boat (8822) to make a double pole system.  Works just as well as the carbon poles on 8822 but not as sexy.

I was 7.5 Kilo's over at the Worlds but I'm carrying 15k in corrector weights. Since the boat hadn't been dry for 2 weeks I couldn't take the lead out and get a new cert.  That's coming.  I have lots of G10 backing hardware that wasn't there when I got the boat. 

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I'll definitely do the double pole.  I have the Superspar boom and I think I may go with Waterat poles and launcher.  

It's too cold for me to too much more resin work so I'm wrapping up the diagonal bulkhead opening and the mast partner cut and lengthen.

 

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That cutout, with the piece missing across the top where you want to make the mast able to move aft further, looks like it will weaken the boat a LOT.  Right where your hopefully heavy crew will be levering around from side to side on the trap and the mast will be adding pressure to the mix. Are you considering some reinforcement in to keep the boat from becoming a candidate for the One Australia 1995 fold & dive contest? 

 

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12 hours ago, PaulK said:

That cutout, with the piece missing across the top where you want to make the mast able to move aft further, looks like it will weaken the boat a LOT.  Right where your hopefully heavy crew will be levering around from side to side on the trap and the mast will be adding pressure to the mix. Are you considering some reinforcement in to keep the boat from becoming a candidate for the One Australia 1995 fold & dive contest? 

 

Paul, what you see there is a work in progress.  I'm definitely not leaving the mast partners open like that, it's a question of two projects happening at the same moment which are increasing the opening for the future spinnaker launcher tube and the lengthening of the partners.  Follow along the thread and I promise I'll make it right.

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Now with a mahogany piece bonded in.  Additional mahogany fillers will be placed in there and then wrapped in a two layers of carbon. The new diagonal bulkhead opening was sanded and glassed with two layers of tape.

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What size mahogany wood did you use? 3/4" When you wrapped the wood did you vacuum bag it? STD carbon twill? Did you bond the carbon back to the bulkhead? How much lap?

 

I have to do this soon so just trying to get some info. I have a page from Craig Thompson describing it, but though I would see if you did it different

 

 

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I thought about vacuum bagging it but it seemed unnecessary so I did wet lay up then wrapped in peel ply.  It's 1/2" mahogany.  I think 3/4" would be excessive. Ideally this area isn't loaded very much if at all.  The carbon wraps up and over to the other side of the wood, then also goes about 5" forward into the mast partners.  It also wraps around the bottom lip of the diagonal bulkhead. Yes on the standard 3k carbon twill.  It's overlapped on each side by 3" as well.

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Fairing in the mast partner extension and refinishing the mast step which had seen better days.

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I just got it out of indoor storage and after a quick trip away this weekend, it's time to get it back together.  

I'll be working on the sex change, bag boat to launcher boat, this Spring. I was hoping to get a Waterat kit but it looks like I possibly may need to build my own launcher kit.

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