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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Redsail

Bye bye Artemis Racing

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13 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

 

Probably not for this defense because no defender trials....and there cannot be a challenger from the defender country.

But I see your general point for the future.

Emirates?

Italians?

In theory,why can't a swede sponsor a NZ entry in the AC on the condition that the team be named after the God Artemis? ATNZ ?

But I certainly don't see anything in the protocol that stps Artemis challenging from any country they choose provided 20% of the team agree to live there.

 

 

 

Its happened before. Tag Heuer sponsored a NZ challenger in 95.

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10 minutes ago, Indio said:

You're just being obtruse for the sake of it! Anyone born in NZ qualifies for a Kiwi passport. One parent born in a country qualifies the offsprings for a passport of that country. You're wanking yourself if you think any team or individual is going to challenge the nationality and/or residency qualification requirements. If a Challenger can't round up 2-3 sailors from within their Challenging YC country, they might as well not bother challenging.

its the combination of that and basically a team will be constrained by how much time they can spend at the venue training prior to the cup.

So Kiwi logic for saving money means all teams need 2 bases except them?

 

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

The only thing OR did an admirable job of was creating an event where LESS teams participated. LR withdrew (bailed) and then threw their resources behind ETNZ because they knew it was better to pool their resources to create one strong challenger then let the Kiwi's struggle alone. Now that they were successful, you will truly see an event where more teams participate. 

Well hopefully. Because etnz (correctly) refused to sign the Framework Agreement,  we almost automatically lost 4 teams. So we just need to hope that the changes that etnz have made will more than replace the teams lost.

I think it will, but right now it's a wait and see game.

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15 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Total bullshit.You do know that when the deed was written, the boats were all crewed by foreigners, so stop with the "this is what the deed intended" crap. All the deed cared about was where the club was from and nothing else.

If ETNZ really believed in country based efforts they wouldn't have this stupid 20% rule as the sole "national" effort. Imagine there is a crew of 12. That means you only need 2 from your home country. As we are back to monohulls, stick them out of sight down in the sewer or give them a minor job somewhere and nobody will even know they exist. The metaphoric "John Smith" can still helm and be the star of a challenge from, say Italy, or China.  

If ETNZ were serious about the issue, they would not have any team sailing around with the name of another country splashed large across the boat. I have actually heard non sailors refer to them as the Emirates team. Maybe it's fine in a country like NZ who knows the history of their team and can look past it, but think about it if we are talking about a new team from a country that either has never challenged or hasn't for some time. The example has been used before, but there is nothing to stop a team from the USA or Europe or Asia from having 20% local sailors and being sponsored by, say Abu Dhabi. How about a German team sponsored by Air France. Both unlikely? Maybe, but we already have a NZ team with emirates all over the boat.

The nationality rule is so poor and ineffective that it's hard to believe that is the best they could come up with. I would therefore begin to think what other reasons why they should bring in such a rule. Who is it really aimed at?

Billionaires who would otherwise look to buy a team of professional designers/sailors/shore crew. We've been there and allowed that already. It didn't work out so well for us. Don't want a repeat.

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34 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Its happened before. Tag Heuer sponsored a NZ challenger in 95.

San Diego held the AC in 1995 .. TNZ and Tag Heuer were challengers .. TNZ won that event .. You can only have multiple defenders if the holding YC permits it and RNZYS have already stated that ETNZ will defend the AC for them.

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41 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

So Kiwi logic for saving money means all teams need 2 bases except them?

 

 

ETNZ is based in Auckland, NZ - where AC36 will be hosted. The 5 poodles all set up bases in Bermuda 2 years before AC35 - didn't do any of them any good. It's not the Defender's responsibility to consider the logistics for the Challengers. It's only an issue where Challengers need to look outside their countries for sailors.

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7 minutes ago, Indio said:

ETNZ is based in Auckland, NZ - where AC36 will be hosted. The 5 poodles all set up bases in Bermuda 2 years before AC35 - didn't do any of them any good. It's not the Defender's responsibility to consider the logistics for the Challengers. It's only an issue where Challengers need to look outside their countries for sailors.

you missed the point, with the 2 stupid country of origin rules it has created a mess for the defenders, a page straight out of LE book

Might come to bite them in the arse if the event goes to Italy

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1 minute ago, Sailabout said:

you missed the point, with the 2 stupid country of origin rules it has created a mess for the defenders, a page straight out of LE book

Another fucking whinger...what is it with you lot??

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5 hours ago, sclarke said:

The only thing OR did an admirable job of was creating an event where LESS teams participated. LR withdrew (bailed) and then threw their resources behind ETNZ because they knew it was better to pool their resources to create one strong challenger then let the Kiwi's struggle alone. Now that they were successful, you will truly see an event where more teams participate. 

How many competitive teams were there on ac32? TNZ and perhaps luna ROSSA (but they lost five nil). Perhaps the third best team (after alingi and tnz) was the Spanish, but far behind.

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12 minutes ago, arneelof said:

How many competitive teams were there on ac32? TNZ and perhaps luna ROSSA (but they lost five nil). Perhaps the third best team (after alingi and tnz) was the Spanish, but far behind.

At least Bertarelli didn't pay for any of the 11 Challengers to make up the numbers in AC32, unlike Ellison did in AC35.

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5 hours ago, Indio said:

At least Bertarelli didn't pay for any of the 11 Challengers to make up the numbers in AC32, unlike Ellison did in AC35.

Agree.. 

So what is the main reason for the decline ? Increased cost ? Less commercial value ? Less interest (among billionaires) ?

From what I remember - so was the cost for "Victory Challenge" in 2003/07 about $40M and compared to the alleged cost of $100M+ for Artemis. And none of them where really competitive (Artemis was OK in 2017). But I guess Oracle spent about the same both times and perhaps TNZ as well. I guess the main reason for increased cost was the introduction of a new complex class (most of the money were spent on the design team). 

 

I seriously doubt that the design of an "foil assisted" AC75 will be significantly cheaper than the design of the AC50. So my guess is that to be competitive you need to spend at least as much as TNZ did last time. And unfortunately there are not today that many rich sailing billionaires that easily can spend $50M for a campaign.

 

The commercial value of AC is also close to 0 (outside NZ). In Sweden there were about 25 articles in total in the largest newspapers (and most of them about 5 lines long just reporting the results).

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, arneelof said:

...... In Sweden there were about 25 articles in total in the largest newspapers (and most of them about 5 lines long just reporting the results).

 

Yet another reason for the 'Waaaa....unfair!' crowd to give it a rest.

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10 hours ago, arneelof said:

How many competitive teams were there on ac32? TNZ and perhaps luna ROSSA (but they lost five nil). Perhaps the third best team (after alingi and tnz) was the Spanish, but far behind.

I guess it really depends what you see as "competitive" if you mean teams that had real potential to win the Cup in 2007, you're probably right, probably 3 challengers had a real chance at competing with Alinghi, ETNZ, BMW Oracle, and Luna Rossa. But the rest were very competitive with each other. Spain, Mascalzone, Victory, Areva. The others were less competitive, China, +39, United Internet Team Germany and Shosholoza but were still competitive with each other. Personally, the fact that some teams clearly have more potential to win the Cup than others doesn't bother me. The more boats lining up against each other the better. Its quite refreshing watching the wooden spooners racing against each other, instead of seeing the same teams racing each other time and time again. Since 92 we've seen a variety of teams, a variety of boats from a variety of countries. That ceased in 2013. We only had a handful (if that) of billionaire teams because winning the cup was seen as not achievable. That changed in Bermuda. Winning the cup is once again achievable. That will make it a fairer, and better competition which is once again worth competing in. 

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4 hours ago, arneelof said:

Agree.. 

So what is the main reason for the decline ? Increased cost ? Less commercial value ? Less interest (among billionaires) ?

(Snip). And unfortunately there are not today that many rich sailing billionaires that easily can spend $50M for a campaign.

(Snip)

 

 

 

 

So, are you suggesting the net worth of the world's sailing billionaires has shrunk in the last decade or so?

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, are you suggesting the net worth of the world's sailing billionaires has shrunk in the last decade or so?

Hahaha...you're mischievous! What did shrink was their willingness to be bent over an AC45 hull by Larry Ellison with their lop-sided perpetually-changing rules to advantage themselves..

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On 04/10/2017 at 4:48 PM, Sailabout said:

No thats the issue being born to automatically gain passport is an American thing.

Countries that had it have been turning it off due to immigration issues.

Plenty of countrys have rules about who your parents are and what passports they carry for you to gain citizenship.

Makes me think there is a discrimination lawsuit coming for that rule in the AC if government funding is getting involved, that takes it from a private club to something altogether different.

EU nationals are a perfect example as you mentioned

Correct. Nz changed the rules a number of years ago.

Doesn't matter if you are born in nz. Doesn't confer citizenship upon you unless one of your parents holds citizenship. 

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53 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Correct. Nz changed the rules a number of years ago.

Doesn't matter if you are born in nz. Doesn't confer citizenship upon you unless one of your parents holds citizenship. 

I did not know that, Jays. SAAC has its uses after all. :unsure:

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

I did not know that, Jays. SAAC has its uses after all. :unsure:

They did it in response to the number of Japanese couples who used to visit nz to give birth for that very reason.

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Well that subject has by now been beat to death - and to summarize...

On 9/29/2017 at 6:20 PM, nav said:

Shitty weather, good sailors, :)

Good weather, good sailors :D

Shit weather, shit sailors :o

 

;)

 

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http://artemis-racing.americascup.com/en/news/366_AC36-PROTOCOL-STATEMENT.html
 

Quote

Artemis Racing is reviewing the Protocol for the 36th America’s Cup, and continues to weigh whether to participate in this cycle or await the next.

The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda. The boat and race format must be seen as bringing the sport of sailing forward and inspiring young and future generations. Other aspects of importance include the cost, which should be justifiable to ensure the right number of participants, and the overall rules should guarantee fairness for all to compete effectively. 

Our team will now take its time to carefully review the Protocol, and we look forward to receiving more information on the Class Rule in November.

 

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"The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda."

That's not going to happen.

 

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I wonder if they will attend the Nov meeting? I read somewhere it will be on the 15th, in Monaco.

Agreed, their likelihood of entering this time sounds unlikely given that stated 'most important consideration.'

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4 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I wonder if they will attend the Nov meeting? I read somewhere it will be on the 15th, in Monaco.

Dalts' podcast?

 

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What are they on about? Fast/faster but cheap?

They know it's a mono, they have the Protocol, in theory all their requirements can be met - except for speed quite obviously, yet they still 'look forward to receiving more information on the Class Rule in November.' :blink:

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9 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Dalts' podcast?

I read it G'tranned from either French or Italian. I forget the exact site but it included several Bruno T quotes, so maybe the 'Monaco' came from him.

But yes, Dalts did also say in the podcast that some boat details could be revealed as soon as the same-mentioned Nov 15th.

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From here

http://www.tipandshaft.com/americas-cup/qui-sont-les-futurs-challengers-de-la-36e-coupe-de-lamerica/

ILS SE TÂTENT
Viendra, viendra pas ? Absent de la Coupe de l’America depuis sa défaite face à Oracle en 2010, Alinghi a annoncé dans un communiqué publié après l’annonce du Protocole qu’il allait « décider dans les mois à venir si son contenu correspond à l’ADN de notre équipe et à nos ambitions pour le futur ». Pour Bruno Troublé, le retour des Suisses « est quasiment sûr », la décision devrait être prise en début d’année 2018, nous a-t-on indiqué chez Alinghi qui attend que soient dévoilés des détails supplémentaires sur l’AC75, ce qui devrait être fait « le 15 novembre au Yacht-Club Monaco« , confie Bruno Troublé.

Même attente de la part d’Artemis, qui conditionnerait son choix au profil du futur bateau : « Torbjörn (Törnqvist, le patron du défi suédois) est un vrai passionné de la Coupe, son but est de faire une troisième campagne pour la ramener en Suède, mais à condition que ce soit sur un bateau qui aille de l’avant, moderne et rapide« , nous précise une source en interne.

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2 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

The NYYC Challenge might have just scared Artemis away. They certainly can't complain about the fairness of the Protocol. With NYYC in the fray, the path to the main dance suddenly looks full of potholes for them.

They won't challenge for any other reason than the tough competition they'll face in the CSS.

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

The NYYC Challenge might have just scared Artemis away. They certainly can't complain about the fairness of the Protocol. With NYYC in the fray, the path to the main dance suddenly looks full of potholes for them.

They won't challenge for any other reason than the tough competition they'll face in the CSS.

Just as well they'll be a no-show then.

Only those who want to compete should turn up.

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Why don't they enter, try and win the thing, and do exactly what they said in their statement? Sounds like they want someone else to win it so they can cosy up to them in order to get what they want. The only way to get what you want is to win the thing. And the only way to win the thing is to line up against all other competitors and try and wrestle it away from NZ. 

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51 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Why don't they enter, try and win the thing, and do exactly what they said in their statement? Sounds like they want someone else to win it so they can cosy up to them in order to get what they want. The only way to get what you want is to win the thing. And the only way to win the thing is to line up against all other competitors and try and wrestle it away from NZ. 

As I said earlier, they need to take a hot cup of concrete and harden the fuck up.

The only way to guarantee the protocol and boats are to your liking is to win the fucking thing, which is pretty hard to do whilst standing on the side lines bitching and moaning.

From 2003 until 2017, ETNZ bent over and lubed themselves up for whoever the defender was, understanding this fact only too well.

It will be a shame to see Artemis exit as they were a good team, but if they are such pussies that a change like this causes them to exit then *yawn*

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A probably better-written headline

Artemis' America's Cup return appears slim

...

So far two syndicates are confirmed in the challenger series in Auckland, Italy's Luna Rossa and the New York Yacht Club. Ben Ainslie's Land Rover BAR team are expected to announce a challenge soon.

http://www.radiosport.co.nz/sport-news/yachting/sailing-artemis-reviewing-return-to-americas-cup/

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

Why don't they enter, try and win the thing, and do exactly what they said in their statement? Sounds like they want someone else to win it so they can cosy up to them in order to get what they want. The only way to get what you want is to win the thing. And the only way to win the thing is to line up against all other competitors and try and wrestle it away from NZ. 

It's not as if they're inexperienced in monohulls. They have campaigned an RC44 for the last several years. Mind you, his RC44 squad is full of Kiwis, and his AC35 team full of poms and Aussies.

We might see another challenger from one of the TP52 Super Series owners - Azzura perhaps?

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"The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda."

What a stupid criteria, I guess that is their choice though.

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6 minutes ago, Battleship said:

"The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda."

What a stupid criteria, I guess that is their choice though.

Is that faster than ART last cup, or faster than TNZ? - big difference

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30 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

Is that faster than ART last cup, or faster than TNZ? - big difference

Faster than anybody, obviously!

Artemis has a lot of youth in their various junior programs and all of them want to go the high-tech-speed route. There was an article about it after an Artemis presentation at the KSSS YC, back in August.

They also have a great multihull-winhsailed-foiler design team with the likes of Adam May.

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49 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Faster than anybody, obviously!

Artemis has a lot of youth in their various junior programs and all of them want to go the high-tech-speed route. There was an article about it after an Artemis presentation at the KSSS YC, back in August.

They also have a great multihull-winhsailed-foiler design team with the likes of Adam May.

Funny thing is, their youth team are more than happy to race an RC44, which clearly are a lot slower than the AC50's. The youth team thing is an excuse. Harden up, or go somewhere else.

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10 minutes ago, sclarke said:

They need to quit pining for the AC50. Its done, over, finished. The AC50 is yesterdays news. 

This may be dated but it does a great job of explaining the Artemis Vision

 

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 Maybe they should take up windsurfing or speedweek if that's their team ethos. It certainly doesn't fit a team hell bent on winning the next AC.

It was their lack of speed in the last eight years that resulted in them not being in a position to have any say. Slow & dangerous, then slow again and part of the treacherous challenger consortium. Nice legacy, capped off with some sulky toy throwing.

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

This may be dated but it does a great job of explaining (not yours but) the Artemis Vision

 

Who cares. They lost. The Kiwi's won. The AC50's are dead and buried. If you want them back, all you have to do is win the cup. As one of the losing teams, you can't lay an ultimatum on the winning team "We don't want mono's, so we'll only compete if you do it in multi's" oh well, see ya later. Maybe they can go do some laps down at Russells yacht club. 

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Who cares. They lost. The Kiwi's won. 

Sure, but the Kiwi's can't force anyone else to change their vision of what the future of sailing holds. Did you watch that Artemis video? Did you listen closely to what TT says?

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20 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Who cares. They lost. The Kiwi's won. The AC50's are dead and buried. If you want them back, all you have to do is win the cup. As one of the losing teams, you can't lay an ultimatum on the winning team "We don't want mono's, so we'll only compete if you do it in multi's" oh well, see ya later. Maybe they can go do some laps down at Russells yacht club. 

They and OR-Xerox can go and race around in Bermuda and pretend they're in the AC35 Match...:lol:

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36 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sure, but the Kiwi's can't force anyone else to change their vision of what the future of sailing holds. Did you watch that Artemis video? Did you listen closely to what TT says?

No, why would I? There was a slogan used in AC35. "There is no second" Kiwi's can't force anyone to change their vision, but the only vision that is relevant is the Kiwi vision. Everything else is white noise. 

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23 minutes ago, sclarke said:

No, why would I? There was a slogan used in AC35. "There is no second" Kiwi's can't force anyone to change their vision, but the only vision that is relevant is the Kiwi vision. Everything else is white noise. 

Plenty of race programs participate in other series instead. If Artemis chooses to do that, well then that's what is relevant to them.

I hope they run another AC campaign too but their statement makes it sound like they don't find this one to be desirable, because of having little interest in slow boats.

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I guess it depends if they want to win the most elusive prize in sailing or they just want to go and play in fast boats.

Both are ok but obviously their main goal isn't to win the AC.

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

The NYYC Challenge might have just scared Artemis away. They certainly can't complain about the fairness of the Protocol. With NYYC in the fray, the path to the main dance suddenly looks full of potholes for them.

They won't challenge for any other reason than the tough competition they'll face in the CSS.

That  is the silliest theory I have read so far.

The team that was runner up in the challenger series and was beaten by the team that went on to win the AC is somehow running scarit from the New York Yachtie Club.

Why dont we take their statement at its face value:-

1. Their talent and their preference lies in sailing fast high performance cutting edge boats. They want to wait to see the details of the protocol. Seems fair.

Its not as if they participated in the AC when it was sailed in the slow boats of yesteryear. They only came into the cup when it became the Formula One of sailboat racing. Its not like they are abandoning the competition as pussies .  They got stronger and stronger over a couple of series and earned a lot of admiration.  We always knew they were not be part of a "traditional" cup. 

2.  They dont have limitless resources and want a reasonably level playing field in terms of cost.  Also seems fair.

They did well. If the cup goes in a fast and leading edge direction, they would like to be back.  If it goes in a more "return to tradition" direction, perhaps we will see them go in another direction but its hard to see them abandoning the sport altogether.     

 

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2 minutes ago, IPLore said:

That  is the silliest theory I have read so far.

The team that was runner up in the challenger series and was beaten by the team that went on to win the AC is somehow running scarit from the New York Yachtie Club.

Why dont we take their statement at its face value:-

1. Their talent and their preference lies in sailing fast high performance cutting edge boats. They want to wait to see the details of the protocol. Seems fair.

Its not as if they participated in the AC when it was sailed in the slow boats of yesteryear. They only came into the cup when it became the Formula One of sailboat racing. Its not like they are abandoning the competition as pussies .  They got stronger and stronger over a couple of series and earned a lot of admiration.  We always knew they were not be part of a "traditional" cup. 

2.  They dont have limitless resources and want a reasonably level playing field in terms of cost.  Also seems fair.

They did well. If the cup goes in a fast and leading edge direction, they would like to be back.  If it goes in a more "return to tradition" direction, perhaps we will see them go in another direction but its hard to see them abandoning the sport altogether.     

 

"Formula 1 of racing" - puhleeze!! In two attempts in multihulls, they've had their butts handed to them even after cosying up to the Defenders. AC36 CSS is shaping up to be very tough to win with the well-resourced and experienced BM-Q sailing reps of the NYCC Challenge and the CoR.  It's possible that Torvquist doesn't want to get bitch-slapped in the CSS and will sit out AC36. If they want to wait for the next Defender to return to multihulls, they'll be very old men before that happens because if LR or NYCC win, AC37 will be in monohulls. Unless Artemis challenges and wins - but then again, if they win in a monohull, why would they return to multis?

There's only one direction if they want to compete for the America's Cup. The AC36 Protocol so far offers the fairest playing field over the multihull editions which NYCC have cited as one of the major reasons they've challenged, so the Protocol fairness box is ticked. The only box which might be causing them some anxiety is the (effectively)100% Nationality compliance.

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4 hours ago, Battleship said:

"The most important consideration for our team is the need for a cutting-edge boat design, one that results in speeds that are as fast or faster than in the last America’s Cup held in Bermuda."

What a stupid criteria, I guess that is their choice though.

They have no show employing THEIR wish list in an AC Challenge unless they actually win the thing.

Just STFU, or get off the pot is my advice to, Artemis.

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4 hours ago, sclarke said:

No, why would I? There was a slogan used in AC35. "There is no second" Kiwi's can't force anyone to change their vision, but the only vision that is relevant is the Kiwi vision. Everything else is white noise. 

I believe that slogan dates back a little earlier.. AC1... ;-)

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@sailbydate: Of course it is.

But then we all wailed an gnashed about the number of entries and went on about it was a crying shame that there where only 5 'poodles'. And not the sticks on the other foot and 2 teams who have the resources to compete (Alinghi and Artemis) have said "we're waiting to see if the boat is progressive". 2 lost entries if it's not. So overall to date -1 for the move back to monohulls.

 

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7 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Faster than anybody, obviously!

Artemis has a lot of youth in their various junior programs and all of them want to go the high-tech-speed route. There was an article about it after an Artemis presentation at the KSSS YC, back in August.

They also have a great multihull-winhsailed-foiler design team with the likes of Adam May.

If there was any relationship between youth and wanting to go high-tech-speed, why do almost none of the many hundreds of youth who race Optis, C420s, CFJs, Radials, Lasers, Sabots etc go into the minute fleets of foilers?  

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57 minutes ago, The Jay said:

If there was any relationship between youth and wanting to go high-tech-speed, why do almost none of the many hundreds of youth who race Optis, C420s, CFJs, Radials, Lasers, Sabots etc go into the minute fleets of foilers?  

Very simple answer to this one: Their parents, coaches, sponsors and national sailing organisations all say that fast classes are not the path to Olympic medals.

Ironically what is very interestimg is the number who, once they have achieved medals, and professional sailing contracts, then who come to moth worlds for their recreation time off work. Its obvious what the pros want to be sailing.

 

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But there doesn't seem to be any relationship between youth and liking "high speed tech". The Moth fleet isn't particularly full of young sailors.

In the strong clubs I've recently sailed in there are no such parents, coaches, sponsors or national sailing organisations, and yet each club has had just one Moth out of about 60 dinghies. Of those 60 dinghies only two or three in each club have the faintest interest in the Olympics, so such people and their aims are irrelevant.

On the other hand, we've had people who say that learning to foil an essential skill to the AC, that foilers are the future, the industry has been promoting them as the answer to all the sport's ills, and World Sailing itself has been pushing foilers so they now have a completely disproportionate amount of medals. That looks like an enormous amount of promotion for foilers.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, rgeek said:

@sailbydate: Of course it is.

But then we all wailed an gnashed about the number of entries and went on about it was a crying shame that there where only 5 'poodles'. And not the sticks on the other foot and 2 teams who have the resources to compete (Alinghi and Artemis) have said "we're waiting to see if the boat is progressive". 2 lost entries if it's not. So overall to date -1 for the move back to monohulls.

 

Bit early to start counting chickens on entry numbers.

My point is they don't get to decide "if the boat is progressive" or otherwise. They front up and play, or they fuck off into irrelevance. Nobody cares what they have to say.

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Only one challenger back form AC35 would not really be a ringing endorsement for Dalton-vision or that much trumpeted injection to the Kiwi economy.

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13 hours ago, sclarke said:

Why don't they enter, try and win the thing, and do exactly what they said in their statement? Sounds like they want someone else to win it so they can cosy up to them in order to get what they want. The only way to get what you want is to win the thing. And the only way to win the thing is to line up against all other competitors and try and wrestle it away from NZ. 

Isn't that what LR did in AC35? 

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47 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Bit early to start counting chickens on entry numbers.

My point is they don't get to decide "if the boat is progressive" or otherwise. They front up and play, or they fuck off into irrelevance. Nobody cares what they have to say.

Damn straight - that's up to the Italians. 

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

But there doesn't seem to be any relationship between youth and liking "high speed tech". The Moth fleet isn't particularly full of young sailors.

In the strong clubs I've recently sailed in there are no such parents, coaches, sponsors or national sailing organisations, and yet each club has had just one Moth out of about 60 dinghies. Of those 60 dinghies only two or three in each club have the faintest interest in the Olympics, so such people and their aims are irrelevant.

On the other hand, we've had people who say that learning to foil an essential skill to the AC, that foilers are the future, the industry has been promoting them as the answer to all the sport's ills, and World Sailing itself has been pushing foilers so they now have a completely disproportionate amount of medals. That looks like an enormous amount of promotion for foilers.

 

 

 

There's a big difference between what people do, and what they aspire to. Do you actually know any competitive sailing kids?

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8 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

Damn straight - that's up to the Italians. 

Only if they challenged, otherwise they can just fuck off and commiserate with the cheaters in Bermuda.

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32 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

There's a big difference between what people do, and what they aspire to. Do you actually know any competitive sailing kids?

Yes, as a parent, relative, skipper, competitor and coach. I've run a small new class for juniors, introduced kids to new and faster forms of sailing and seen them go on to do the Youth Worlds and Olympic efforts, sailed with and against teens who have gone on to race skiffs, foilers and kites at world level, and scared kids shitless on my own high performance kit.

 

 

 

 

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^ Everyone I know who's into sailing was into the foiling cats - both iterations. The sailing kids are all aware of moths, kite foiling etc, and all the ones I know - very much not restricted to Maui - have little doubt that foiling is the future. They sail what they have - you 'run what you brung' - but to suggest that they prefer those boats is, in my view, a pretty big assumption not based on reality.


I also think you are seriously underestimating the viability of foiling in light wind. Need I remind you that the cats in Bermuda were foiling in 6 kts TWS?  I've actually sailed and windsurfed on lakes like Chiemsee, and spent plenty of time in Newport, and to me it is ALL ripe for foiling.
 

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24 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ At least you're not bitter!

LOL

ETNZ won - your cheaters got humiliated and are gone from the AC, what's there not to smile about??

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

ETNZ won - your cheaters got humiliated and are gone from the AC, what's there not to smile about??

Why don't you tell us? You're the one that's still whinging and acting out - you'd think you would've moved on from your team's humiliating loss in 2013 four years and a successful campaign later, but apparently not. Come on - put on a happy face, I'm sure ETNZ will do fabulously in whatever boat LR decides they can race in!

B)
 

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

^ Everyone I know who's into sailing was into the foiling cats - both iterations. The sailing kids are all aware of moths, kite foiling etc, and all the ones I know - very much not restricted to Maui - have little doubt that foiling is the future. They sail what they have - you 'run what you brung' - but to suggest that they prefer those boats is, in my view, a pretty big assumption not based on reality.


I also think you are seriously underestimating the viability of foiling in light wind. Need I remind you that the cats in Bermuda were foiling in 6 kts TWS?  I've actually sailed and windsurfed on lakes like Chiemsee, and spent plenty of time in Newport, and to me it is ALL ripe for foiling.
 

And few people I knew were into the foiling cats. I've just indicated that I've had pretty good awareness of the sailing kids, and the ones I know don't think that foiling is the future. We've had modern foiling for over a decade now and if it was the future - rather than part of the future - it would be much, much bigger. Check out how much bigger cat sailing, windsurfing and kiting were when they were this old- it's simply beyond comparison. And they did not become "the future"; they are still smaller than sailing seahugging dinghies. Many Opti kids today are younger than modern foiling; to them it is older than life itself.

I'm not assuming anything; I'm listening to the youth who I have sailed against and who have crewed for me, and looking at a lot of other information such as research on why people do the sports they do. Your assumption that I am assuming is not based on reality.

Yes, the 50 foot wingmasted cats in Bermuda were foiling in light winds. So what? That's like saying that because Miss Nylex and Aquarius could fly hulls in 6 knots and beat a 12 Metre back in 1976, all the kids were going to sail wingmasted cats in the '80s. In fact, kids largely ignored cats and still do. They've never been stupid, ignorant or browbeaten by authority or misguided ambition - they just don't care about going as fast as possible. 

People have been saying for decades that if cats got into the AC, they would boom. In fact there is no objective information whatsoever that I can find that indicates that cat sailing is bigger now than it was a few years before. That's just one example, along with earlier claims like "skiffs are the future" and "windsurfing will boom now we've gotten rid of longboards and are promoting sinkers" that has proven that claims that any sort of high-tech high-speed are "the future" and loved by all young sailors should be treated with grave suspicion.

 

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4 hours ago, The Jay said:

The Moth fleet isn't particularly full of young sailors.

Compared to other classes, yes it is. The only thing that stops adoption is the ruinous cost.

First 6 Wazps into Ireland, almost as soon as it's launched, have gone into the hands of under 25s (straight from lasers, which they graduated to from optis) and there's work afoot to bring in a full container of 15. Those will likely go to across the whole age range, including the 'missing generation' in their 30s. In an Irish context those are highly significant numbers.

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Why don't you tell us? You're the one that's still whinging and acting out - you'd think you would've moved on from your team's humiliating loss in 2013 four years and a successful campaign later, but apparently not. Come on - put on a happy face, I'm sure ETNZ will do fabulously in whatever boat LR decides they can race in!

B)
 

Life's great...ETNZ have kicked out the cheaters from the AC for good, the AC is back in monohull's, AC36 already has real challengers instead of the mickey mouse defender-funded poodles in Bermuda...what's there not to smile about??

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28 minutes ago, The Jay said:

And few people I knew were into the foiling cats. I've had pretty good awareness of the sailing kids and the ones I know don't think that foiling is the future. We've had modern foiling for over a decade now and if it was the future - rather than part of the future - it would be much, much bigger. Check out how much bigger cat sailing, windsurfing and kiting were when they were this old- it's simply beyond comparison. And they did not become "the future"; they are still smaller than sailing seahugging dinghies. Many Opti kids today are younger than modern foiling; to them it is older than time.

I'm not assuming anything; I'm listening to the youth who I have sailed against and who have crewed for me, and looking at a lot of other information such as research on why people do the sports they do. Your assumption that I am assuming is not based on reality.

Yes, the 50 foot wingmasted cats in Bermuda were foiling in light winds. So what? That's like saying that because Miss Nylex and Aquarius could fly hulls in 6 knots and beat a 12 Metre back in 1976, all the kids were going to sail wingmasted cats in the '80s. In fact, kids largely ignored cats and still do. They've never been stupid, ignorant or browbeaten by authority or misguided ambition - they just don't care about going as fast as possible. 

People have been saying for decades that if cats got into the AC, they would boom. In fact there is no objective information whatsoever that I can find that indicates that cat sailing is bigger now than it was a few years before. That's just one example, along with earlier claims like "skiffs are the future" and "windsurfing will boom now we've gotten rid of longboards and are promoting sinkers" that has proven that claims that any sort of high-tech high-speed are "the future" should be treated with grave suspicion.

 

It's not a flat earth Jay. There's no one answer fits all. Not high performance, not low performance. Using cost constrained youth classes as an example is facile. Askign someone eating strawberry ice cream what their favorite flavour of ice cream is daft.

A lot of 'Kids' do love performance, that's why the ones interested buggered off kite surfing.

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34 minutes ago, Indio said:

Life's great...ETNZ have kicked out the cheaters from the AC for good, the AC is back in monohull's, AC36 already has real challengers instead of the mickey mouse defender-funded poodles in Bermuda...what's there not to smile about??

I havent heard the latest on challenges. So far the only participants I am aware of for the Auckland/Palermo edition is one independent challenge and two defender funded poodles.

and of course the Italians never cheat....they just hosted the J70 Worlds and ...Oh Wait!:(

 

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26 minutes ago, rgeek said:

It's not a flat earth Jay. There's no one answer fits all. Not high performance, not low performance. Using cost constrained youth classes as an example is facile. Askign someone eating strawberry ice cream what their favorite flavour of ice cream is daft.

A lot of 'Kids' do love performance, that's why the ones interested buggered off kite surfing.

I have three boys. They have long since flown the nest. They all went through the usual Optis to Lasers to Lightnings to J 22s to MC Scow route because that is what it is around here.

Dad has enjoyed watching the AC over the years. I am not a rabid fan like some of y'all but I like sailing. The kids showed no interest in the AC until San Francisco.  They thought  the Godzilla challenge was absurd. They watched Valencia for about 10 minutes before heading out to throw a football around.  The final match in San Francisco had them glued to their seats.  You wont find any more good ole American boys than my boys but they were divided in their support with one rooting for Team NZ and two for Oracle. In Bermuda it was reversed with two rooting for ETNZ and one for Oracle. They watched as much of Bermuda as their jobs allowed them. Hell, even Mom watched the Bermuda AC.  My eldest went on a vacation to New Zealand and I dont think he had even heard of the place before  AC 34.  

The point is, they sail the slow boats that we sail locally , BUT they want to watch high performance.

To the Geek's point;  I drive a Toyota Land Cruiser but I have no interest in watching Land Cruisers racing , or of watching Lightning or MC Scow racing on TV  .  I totally get Formula One and the Indie Series but I am not going to rush out and buy an open wheeler race car.  

If you are a motor sports fan, you want to watch high performance racing.  If you are a sailing sport fan, what do you want to watch?  For myself I really enjoyed the high speed tactics and the edge of the envelope skills displayed in Bermuda. It was by far and away the best AC ever in my book. Nothing before even came close.  Team New Zealand were magnificent.  It was really great TV and in this kind of format, Pete Burling was on his way to becoming a young rockstar in public sailing with his folksy understated manner versus the equally enjoyable brash Spithill. It was a battle.  Hamilton vs Vettel. Mercedes vs Ferrari.  Burling vs Spithill. Oracle vs ETNZ.  It was great stuff.

I am not anti-mono hull.....but I totally get why Artemis want to wait before committing to a challenge.

A truly high performance foiling mono-hull would be exciting, but I remain suspicious of the Italians motives.  They want to bring it to Italy and can they wrest it from NZ in a high performance boat where NZ has already shown in two successive cups that they excel?  Will NZ receive Italian funding and support this time around?

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1 hour ago, familysailor said:

For me it's like watching formula one cars at Monaco or Stock cars at Monaco....

 

(What are the odds the point I was going to make was referenced on the last post made...Ty Family sailor..)

F1 cars kept pushing the limits on tech and what happened ? The skill of the driver was minimized. (posi traction etc)

In sailing, they face the same hurdles almost exactly, given algorithms, hydraulics, and pre set sail trim.

I hope they keep the sailors 100% invested in the performance and not rely on the high tech aspects.

If you do, you will end up with drone boats with no humans on board, and one computer programmer dancing around on shore.

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2 hours ago, oobilly said:

(What are the odds the point I was going to make was referenced on the last post made...Ty Family sailor..)

F1 cars kept pushing the limits on tech and what happened ? The skill of the driver was minimized. (posi traction etc)

In sailing, they face the same hurdles almost exactly, given algorithms, hydraulics, and pre set sail trim.

I hope they keep the sailors 100% invested in the performance and not rely on the high tech aspects.

If you do, you will end up with drone boats with no humans on board, and one computer programmer dancing around on shore.

Traction Control has been banned in Formula One since 2008.

The cars have got more technical and more physical to drive.

Driver skill is still an important asset to win in Formula One. You cannot get in the front row without a superb technical team, but you still need an extraordinary talent on the wheel to close the deal.  In that respect, the analogy with the America's Cup is  relevant.

 

  

 

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While we are on the analogy with Formula One...I think one element that has kept Formula One so competitive and built  a good fan base is that the vehicles have evolved over time rather that had radical change in different directions.  The cars in 2017 look very different to the cars in 1977 but the progress has been steady and evolutionary in one direction.  This allows various teams to build on the technology they acquired in previous years. Teams fortunes wax and wane relative to each other based on refining the technology but they are never sent back all the way to square one.

In contrast, the America's Cup has a tendency to do U turns which sends everyone back to the drawing board to start again....if they can afford it.

Its expensive to go back to square one. Given the scale of Formula One and the number of race days over the course of a season the ROI to a sponsor is huge bang for the buck compared to AC. Perhaps Ferrari might be the equivalent of Artemis. They would see no point in participating in Formula One, if the format changed to sport saloon car racing or stock car racing.

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You will find a lot of motorsport fans in NZ and Australia like to watch the V8's. Bathurst is an annual pilgrimage for Aussies and Kiwis alike. And its because of the rivalry between Ford and Holden. That rivalry exists because a lot of Kiwi's and Aussies drive Ford or Holden V8's themselves. And they pick a side, Ford or Holden, and they'll only drive that brand. No one knows why, as they're both V8 powered vehicles, yet for some reason one is better than the other. You'll probably find Formula One motor racing is not as popular especially in NZ and Aussie as some think it is. Not as popular as the V8's are anyway. Long story short, Kiwi's find it a lot easier to watch sports they relate to, like Rugby, most of us have played at one time or another, so we watch. 

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16 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

While we are on the analogy with Formula One...I think one element that has kept Formula One so competitive and built  a good fan base is that the vehicles have evolved over time rather that had radical change in different directions.  The cars in 2017 look very different to the cars in 1977 but the progress has been steady and evolutionary in one direction.  This allows various teams to build on the technology they acquired in previous years. Teams fortunes wax and wane relative to each other based on refining the technology but they are never sent back all the way to square one.

In contrast, the America's Cup has a tendency to do U turns which sends everyone back to the drawing board to start again....if they can afford it.

Its expensive to go back to square one. Given the scale of Formula One and the number of race days over the course of a season the ROI to a sponsor is huge bang for the buck compared to AC. Perhaps Ferrari might be the equivalent of Artemis. They would see no point in participating in Formula One, if the format changed to sport saloon car racing or stock car racing.

Why do some of you persist in comparing the AC to F1, when the formats are so completely irrelevant to each other? Sure, technology is integral to the success of the winners, but ultimately F1 winners have to race an entire field - AC winners ultimately need only configure their boat for a 1-on-1 match against a Challenger they've already seen in the CSS.

Circuit racing like F1, Nascar etc are boring - I prefer to watch rallying where driving skills contribute significantly to winning or crashing..

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9 hours ago, rgeek said:

It's not a flat earth Jay. There's no one answer fits all. Not high performance, not low performance. Using cost constrained youth classes as an example is facile. Askign someone eating strawberry ice cream what their favorite flavour of ice cream is daft.

A lot of 'Kids' do love performance, that's why the ones interested buggered off kite surfing.

I didn't say it's a fat earth or that a lot of kids don't love performance so don't put words in my mouth. The point was that no one answer fits all, and therefore there's no reason that a younger team will be more interesting in super high speed. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

The cars have got more technical and more physical to drive.

 

 

  

 

really ?compared to the 1980's and the supercharged rockets they drove... then they limited the turbo boost, then later outlawed turbos . So, to compensate they added some X factor with  KERS systems. The primary reason I saw was that the cars fundamentally were too fast for the tracks...and they werent going to rebuild all the tracks. So the cars have to change.

In AC... its a lot alike.  Goal is to have close tight nail biting racing. But to get that with foiling is a very hard proposition. So its got to change.

Another similarity is the team racing concept that has unfolded in NASCAR and F1.  I personally hate it. To think the best driver in the best car wont be winning because of some deal? ( So I havent watched basically since Earnhardt/Senna died.)  The relationship with team Japan and Oracle, and the Luna Rossa and ETNZ was where I saw the AC heading... bugged me.

Anyway, I hope they can grow the sport...but the cost involved is so horrendous compared to the fan base ..it wont happen unless BIG steps are taken. 

I have a few ideas...

1. expand the AC to have other classes race...(ie have multihulls and foiling monohulls, and behemoth monohulls like the j boats too)

2. Put the ..(buckle up for this one)  Deed of Gift in a glass case and leave it there. It makes for so many head aches.

3. Run it more than every 4 yrs. 2yrs? 1yr? any rule changes would be given a heads up of say 4yrs.

4. Run different courses topographies have a series of races. (as it is the LVC is the predominate action, not the final races)

 

Having some or all the changes would allow more countries to step up to the challenge.

 

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10 hours ago, rgeek said:

Compared to other classes, yes it is. The only thing that stops adoption is the ruinous cost.

 

That's not just facile, to use your term, but apparently incorrect.  Over the last two years, the Youths have made up 11% and 4.4% of the Moth Worlds fleet respectively; earlier results are unavailable. Comparable non-Olympic singlehanded classes like the Aeros and Europes show higher proportional youth numbers; at the UK Aero nationals 18% were youth. There were 97 Youth at the last Europe class Europeans, for example. Even the Finns get more Youth to their worlds; the reason they have an older average age is because of their enormous Masters fleets which is not exactly a bad thing. Even then they sometimes have a higher proportion of youths than the Moth worlds! 

It's not just cost, although that can't be ignored and it's an inherent issue. The boats are fucking wonderful, foiling is shitloads of fun, but just like strawberry icecream it doesn't suit everyone. Anyway, end of sidetrack.

 

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

That's not just facile, to use your term, but apparently incorrect.  Over the last two years, the Youths have made up 11% and 4.4% of the Moth Worlds fleet respectively; earlier results are unavailable. Comparable non-Olympic singlehanded classes like the Aeros and Europes show higher proportional youth numbers; at the UK Aero nationals 18% were youth. There were 97 Youth at the last Europe class Europeans, for example. Even the Finns get more Youth to their worlds; the reason they have an older average age is because of their enormous Masters fleets which is not exactly a bad thing. Even then they sometimes have a higher proportion of youths than the Moth worlds! 

It's not just cost, although that can't be ignored and it's an inherent issue. The boats are fucking wonderful, foiling is shitloads of fun, but just like strawberry icecream it doesn't suit everyone. Anyway, end of sidetrack.

 

 Anyway, end of sidetrack.

Thank God. 

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It's pretty damn simple. If you don't want sidetracks, don't buttress your case with claims you don't back up. If you do rest your posts on claims you don't back up, you have to expect people to take issue with them.

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32 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 Anyway, end of sidetrack.

Thank God. 

Really... Sorry I mentioned it.

I'd still rather watch Formula one in Monaco than NASCAR races anywhere.

I'd also rather watch foiling cats on a tight course than (probably slower) Mono hulls on a distant ocean course.

We'll see what develops....

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