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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
SCARECROW

Now the "protocol" is out how many teams do you expect?

AC entries (one of these might be a trick question?  

102 members have voted

  1. 1. How many entries initially?

    • 2
      2
    • 2-4
      16
    • 5-8
      72
    • 9+
      12
  2. 2. How many teams will get to the "Prada cup"

    • 2-3
      17
    • 4-5
      44
    • 6+
      41
  3. 3. How many teams to the AC

    • 2
      72
    • 3-4
      14
    • 4+
      16


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As I read it the protocol makes it basically impossible to raise sponsorship in the short term.  So teams (as is often the case) will have to be built around some rich guy or girl.

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5 minutes ago, Tropical Madness said:

only 2 boats ever make it into the AC...

Yes. I was wondering if it was a trick question. 

I reckon we will end up with about 8 challengers. 

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I see most here are still in the phase of wild optimism.

And for those predicting more than two boats in the AC, is that ignorance or poor reading comprehension?

 

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The AC36 Match will be between ETNZ and LR, with ETNZ defending successfully. The AC37 CoR will be NYYC and will be held in 2024.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

 

And for those predicting more than two boats in the AC, is that ignorance or poor reading comprehension?

 

Can't it be both?  I was going to tick the five. Names against votes box to out idiots but thought that would be too mean.

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15 hours ago, Indio said:

The AC36 Match will be between ETNZ and LR, with ETNZ defending successfully. The AC37 CoR will be NYYC and will be held in 2024.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. LR is a mature team and ready to rock, but ETNZ has built a machine and really got it right this time round - I see no reason why that shouldn't carry over into AC36. 

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42 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. LR is a mature team and ready to rock, but ETNZ has built a machine and really got it right this time round - I see no reason why that shouldn't carry over into AC36. 

I give any Bermuda teams the advantage since they have the most recent-technology design systems in place and potentially ready to improve on. Startups, even for LR after the inactivity, are in a tough spot.

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41 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. LR is a mature team and ready to rock, but ETNZ has built a machine and really got it right this time round - I see no reason why that shouldn't carry over into AC36. 

I really can't see any new team doing an Alinghi and buying-in key sailors like Bertarelli did with Coutts & Co, although the new AC75 Class Ver 01 may be driven by the designers and technologists more so than the sailors. LR have always been competitive in monos, but they've tended to be too "temperamental" at crucial times - a bit like the Italian rugby team..

I'd really like to see an NYYC Challenge, for sentimental value...and for that matter, an Aussie Challenge from Royal Perth Yacht Club.

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^ Plus now that they're back in monos and tacking matters, the Italian habit of broadcasting their moves by flicking cigarettes will be a major disadvantage. 

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8 hours ago, surfsailor said:

^ Plus now that they're back in monos and tacking matters, the Italian habit of broadcasting their moves by flicking cigarettes will be a major disadvantage. 

That's the real reason they pulled out of the last cup. In simulations, they found that the flight of flicked cigarettes due to high apparent wind speeds and the aero package they wished to run sucked them back into the boat and did huge damage. The crew refused to give up their smokes, so they had no option but to pull out. :D

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Now that I have had a fair bit of Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey, I'm feeling brave enough to post in this thread, heavily in the "very few challengers" camp, IMO the rules/timeline are skewed to favor COR & defender to the exclusion of others, however,  I'm all for an Aussie challenge (mentioned in another thread), largely because a serious Nihon challenge seems extremely unlikely at this point.

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51 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ If only Roberto Benigni was available to drive LR!

 

One of the funniest movies I've seen... (The Begnini part, of course)

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On 10/2/2017 at 6:41 AM, Indio said:

The AC36 Match will be between ETNZ and LR, with ETNZ defending successfully. The AC37 CoR will be NYYC and will be held in 2024.

and what are the numbers for Friday's Euromillions lottery draw?

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On 10/3/2017 at 8:47 AM, Team_GBR said:

That's the real reason they pulled out of the last cup. In simulations, they found that the flight of flicked cigarettes due to high apparent wind speeds and the aero package they wished to run sucked them back into the boat and did huge damage. The crew refused to give up their smokes, so they had no option but to pull out. :D

the Italians pulled out because the Pope told them too.  :D

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Huh?  Maybe write in French so we can understand you.

If there was one big reveal that I learnt from the interview is that A4E is actually just GD's troll account on SA

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17 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The TRUTH is: Every additional Challenge for AC 36 has to be confirmed by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club and until they do there is no US Challenge.

It will probably be a "Basic Challenge" with ZERO Chance of winning the whole thing. Such Challenges are pretty much useless. I'd rather have 5-6 good Teams with close Racing between them like we had in AC 32 with Oracle, LR, Desafio and Mascalzone than these garbage Teams like China, +39, Areva and UITG.

Nope

Confirmation of a valid challenge is when they have their own thread on SA.

Of which I have just setup - Team NYYC

 

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Yer, I when with most 5-8 and then 4-5 and obviously 2. Shocking to see that 27% of voters don't understand the rules.

Watching to see what Mr Clean knows tomorrow, although I suppose LE saying he's not going to challenge could be a US challenge announcement.

Hopefully a more interesting and quality announcement 

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2 hours ago, Barnyb said:

the Italians pulled out because the Pope told them too.  :D

Do people still do what the Pope tells them?

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Do people still do what the Pope tells them?

I believe the withdrawal method is condoned by the Pope.

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36 minutes ago, oobilly said:

I believe the withdrawal method is condoned by the Pope.

What the fuck would he know about it?

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4 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The TRUTH is: Every additional Challenge for AC 36 has to be confirmed by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club and until they do there is no US Challenge.

It will probably be a "Basic Challenge" with ZERO Chance of winning the whole thing. Such Challenges are pretty much useless. I'd rather have 5-6 good Teams with close Racing between them like we had in AC 32 with Oracle, LR, Desafio and Mascalzone than these garbage Teams like China, +39, Areva and UITG.

It's not so long ago you said that there would be no challenge from BAR or the US...

Why would DeVos, Hutch and Quantum be a basic team?

you have been wrong about everything you have ever posted here and your latest is no exception..

 

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4 hours ago, Barnyb said:

and what are the numbers for Friday's Euromillions lottery draw?

I've given them to Alingi4ever and his alter-ego Tornado-Cat so they can fund their countries' AC36 entries and have a team they can root for - instead of each other.

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5 hours ago, oobilly said:

I believe the withdrawal method is condoned by the Pope.

Catholics approve of one method of contraceptive.

It is an aspirin.......held between the knees.

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10 hours ago, Barnyb said:

the Italians pulled out because the Pope told them too.  :D

Coitus interruptus?

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21 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The TRUTH is: Every additional Challenge for AC 36 has to be confirmed by the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club and until they do there is no US Challenge.

It will probably be a "Basic Challenge" with ZERO Chance of winning the whole thing. Such Challenges are pretty much useless. I'd rather have 5-6 good Teams with close Racing between them like we had in AC 32 with Oracle, LR, Desafio and Mascalzone than these garbage Teams like China, +39, Areva and UITG.

Money can't buy happiness, but it can certainly buy a good team...and Doug Devos can buy and sell every owner in the AC twice over.

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^ Can you buy a good team? You can certainly spend a lot of money on good individuals - just ask Ben for example, but a good team takes more than money...

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4 hours ago, nav said:

^ Can you buy a good team? You can certainly spend a lot of money on good individuals - just ask Ben for example, but a good team takes more than money...

Alinghi has shown without doubt that yes you can, as long as you buy them as a team.

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Alinghi has shown without doubt that yes you can, as long as you buy them as a team.

I think lazza and Russ have proved you can buy the Americas Cup and create a great team at the same time..

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First iteration of a new boat, design will be king this time. 

ETNZ biggest advantage, just because they revel in this space.

Next biggest advantage goes to the team with the most dollars, which is looking like NYYC.

The excitement around a change in approach will pull in at least enough teams to call it a success.

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1 hour ago, Boybland said:

First iteration of a new boat, design will be king this time

When has design not been king in the AC? It always has been before, so it is no change.

 

1 hour ago, Boybland said:

Next biggest advantage goes to the team with the most dollars, which is looking like NYYC.

Maybe, but having a super rich backer doesn't mean he will give them the most money. In recent times, only Ellison was said to do campaigns with unlimited budgets (33 and 24). Last time around, I believe it is generally accepted that BAR had the biggest budget (about US$140m) and we all know how that ended up. Of the "serious" teams, it was won by the one with the smallest budget. 

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14 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

When has design not been king in the AC? It always has been before, so it is no change.

It's always important but the differences are magnified every time they change yachts and the bigger the change the bigger the design differences.

We are kind of used to it now after 3 consecutive new classes of boat, but there was a time where they were putting helmets on winches when not in use to gain tiny fractions of a knot because the design race had become so close.

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8 minutes ago, Boybland said:

It's always important but the differences are magnified every time they change yachts and the bigger the change the bigger the design differences.

We are kind of used to it now after 3 consecutive new classes of boat, but there was a time where they were putting helmets on winches when not in use to gain tiny fractions of a knot because the design race had become so close.

There is a god argument to say that when there is a new AC class, money isn't as important (up to a point). There are usually pretty big differences between the ideas from the different teams and it is the big idea that usually wins, unless it can be easily and quickly copied like we saw with the AC72. If ETNZ had managed to keep their boat under wraps for a lot longer, they would have walked away with the event.

The more mature the rule, the more you chase little gains which gets really expensive.

Either way, this is not going to be a cheap AC.

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17 hours ago, Boybland said:

First iteration of a new boat, design will be king this time. 

ETNZ biggest advantage, just because they revel in this space.

Next biggest advantage goes to the team with the most dollars, which is looking like NYYC.

The excitement around a change in approach will pull in at least enough teams to call it a success.

I think the Quantum-BM teams may already have significant test data, including tank-testing data (banned in AC36 Protocol) from their Maxi72 programmes which may well put them ahead of ETNZ and LR. The NYYC Challenge team would have been excited by the AC75 decision given their Maxi winning background. Great fit all round.

I can see NYYC  winning the CSS. Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

 

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

I think the Quantum-BM teams may already have significant test data, including tank-testing data (banned in AC36 Protocol) from their Maxi72 programmes which may well put them ahead of ETNZ and LR. The NYYC Challenge team would have been excited by the AC75 decision given their Maxi winning background. Great fit all round.

I can see NYYC  winning the CSS. Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

 

You are assuming that the AC75 might resemble the Maxi72 .. I suspect that it will be so different that the Maxi72 development will be irrelevant.

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19 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

You are assuming that the AC75 might resemble the Maxi72 .. I suspect that it will be so different that the Maxi72 development will be irrelevant.

Puhleaze don't requote the Indiot?

 Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

Max Sirena?? Lmao!!! That guy won't be visible on any AC boat ever again, he's just a stooge nowadays.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Puhleaze don't requote the Indiot?

 Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

Max Sirena?? Lmao!!! That guy won't be visible on any AC boat ever again, he's just a stooge nowadays.

You are missing the point, Max is running LR and THutch is running QBMA, not that they are going to physically sail against each other.

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4 hours ago, Indio said:

I think the Quantum-BM teams may already have significant test data, including tank-testing data (banned in AC36 Protocol) from their Maxi72 programmes which may well put them ahead of ETNZ and LR. The NYYC Challenge team would have been excited by the AC75 decision given their Maxi winning background. Great fit all round.

I can see NYYC  winning the CSS. Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

 

In case you would not know, GD is making fun of the i(n)diots thinking the monos in one dimension while they think it in 7 dimensions. Try to keep up mate. :D

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12 hours ago, Indio said:

I think the Quantum-BM teams may already have significant test data, including tank-testing data (banned in AC36 Protocol) from their Maxi72 programmes which may well put them ahead of ETNZ and LR. The NYYC Challenge team would have been excited by the AC75 decision given their Maxi winning background. Great fit all round.

I can see NYYC  winning the CSS. Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

 

 

10 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

You are assuming that the AC75 might resemble the Maxi72 .. I suspect that it will be so different that the Maxi72 development will be irrelevant.

Not often we agree, Terry, but spot on with this. Indio doesn't seem to have a clue what is going on.

Hutch vs Max

PMSL. Totally clueless.

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12 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Puhleaze don't requote the Indiot?

 Hutch v Max would be great to watch.

Max Sirena?? Lmao!!! That guy won't be visible on any AC boat ever again, he's just a stooge nowadays.

You do realize he is running the entire program, right?   Maybe I don't know how you AC Anarchists use 'stooge'. 

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6 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

You do realize he is running the entire program, right?   Maybe I don't know how you AC Anarchists use 'stooge'. 

I guess it makes some sense if you look at it that way. I just don't see Max actually on the boat whereas THutch may very well be. 

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I guess it makes some sense if you look at it that way. I just don't see Max actually on the boat whereas THutch may very well be. 

Max has paid his dues, remember the hit he took from the spin pole in 2000.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

You do realize he is running the entire program, right?   Maybe I don't know how you AC Anarchists use 'stooge'. 

It's 'stooge' when the alcohol has kicked in and his hatred of PB, LR, Prada and Max for helping TNZ kick his heros into touch, knows no bounds, in the sober light of morning it may be a different story...

As for Max running the whole show, the guy who helped Russel Green write the protocol is Marco Piccinini, he was the sporting director of Ferrari for many years, and later worked for the FIA the governing body of Motorsport, where he helped write the Concorde Agreement, the secret protocol which  decides the rules and money dispersments of F1..

MP...a man spinbot will be adding to his ITA hate list...

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I guess it makes some sense if you look at it that way. I just don't see Max actually on the boat whereas THutch may very well be. 

I actually think the opposite

 

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Had several conversations with Max Sirena, and I think he's one of the most decent, unassuming, not ego driven sailors I've ever met - and yet he obviously gets things done, he wouldn't have lasted this long with Bertelli otherwise. Mind you, this is not a common trait of the LR lot: in fact - with the notable exception of Checco Bruni - I find them generally unpleasant

 

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2 hours ago, ro! said:

 the guy who helped Russel Green write the protocol is Marco Piccinini, he was the sporting director of Ferrari for many years, and later worked for the FIA the governing body of Motorsport, where he helped write the Concorde Agreement, the secret protocol which  decides the rules and money dispersments of F1..

 

I don't know who is MP, I don't know his CV, and I don't care. I know he reduced the role of other challengers to nothing in the prot.

We both did not like Oracle in last AC but I have the honesty to recognize they did a offer a much better place to all challengers in their protocol. Hope you can accept it too.

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49 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't know who is MP, I don't know his CV, and I don't care. I know he reduced the role of other challengers to nothing in the prot.

We both did not like Oracle in last AC but I have the honesty to recognize they did a offer a much better place to all challengers in their protocol. Hope you can accept it too.

Totally disagree, the CoR represents them but it's not supposed to be a committee, TO tried to disadvantage TNZ and LR by getting the weaker challengers to gang up on them..and the London Agreement was a disgrace to the AC, absolutely against the spirit of the Deed...

I tried to explain who MP is, he's a very experienced negotiator, and having seen what the gang of five tried to in Bermuda why would LR set themselves up for more of rthe same?

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41 minutes ago, ro! said:

Totally disagree, the CoR represents them but it's not supposed to be a committee, TO tried to disadvantage TNZ and LR by getting the weaker challengers to gang up on them..and the London Agreement was a disgrace to the AC, absolutely against the spirit of the Deed...

I tried to explain who MP is, he's a very experienced negotiator, and having seen what the gang of five tried to in Bermuda why would LR set themselves up for more of rthe same?

London Agreement? What was the outcome of that? 

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20 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

London Agreement? What was the outcome of that? 

Not a whole lot. Not nearly as funny as the  agreement that let PB bully NZ.

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1 hour ago, ro! said:

Totally disagree, the CoR represents them but it's not supposed to be a committee, TO tried to disadvantage TNZ and LR by getting the weaker challengers to gang up on them..and the London Agreement was a disgrace to the AC, absolutely against the spirit of the Deed...

I tried to explain who MP is, he's a very experienced negotiator, and having seen what the gang of five tried to in Bermuda why would LR set themselves up for more of rthe same?

The only solution to disagree is to consider that they were 5 OR poodles, which is untrue and, for the least, an insult to BAR and Artemis. The only poodle was TJ, not even sure, they were a very rich team.

As for LR representing all the other challengers, well, the good point is that we will have fun during this AC.

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51 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Not a whole lot. Not nearly as funny as the  agreement that let PB bully NZ.

You mean the agreement that gave ETNZ the resources to completely outclass Coutts and Co?

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't know who is MP, I don't know his CV, and I don't care. I know he reduced the role of other challengers to nothing in the prot.

We both did not like Oracle in last AC but I have the honesty to recognize they did a offer a much better place to all challengers in their protocol. Hope you can accept it too.

SKM at https://howtospendit.ft.com/vehicles/201068-the-hydrofoil-sailing-revolution-started-by-the-america-s-cup

For Ben Ainslie Racing’s co-founder Sir Keith Mills, stability in the Cup is key for its future in the modern, commercialised world. “One of the big steps forward in creating this framework agreement is that it has dealt with much of the usual uncertainty about the boats and the length of the Cup cycle, and placed us in a position where we as a team can enter negotiations with our commercial partners on the basis that the America’s Cup will take place in 2019 and 2021. For instance, we would know that it will be in very similar boats to the ones that we are currently racing in, and there would be a World Series of up to eight to 12 events in major cities around the world. The blank sheet of paper that was traditionally presented to teams after each event had been won has gone away, and that’s a big step forward. It’s still got a long way to go compared to, say, tennis, football and Formula One, but it’s a good step in the right direction.”

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On 10/7/2017 at 8:44 AM, Boybland said:

It's always important but the differences are magnified every time they change yachts and the bigger the change the bigger the design differences.

We are kind of used to it now after 3 consecutive new classes of boat, but there was a time where they were putting helmets on winches when not in use to gain tiny fractions of a knot because the design race had become so close.

That was the function of a tight design Rule, surely?

If you leave enough room for innovation (deliberately, or inadvertently) it will be found - as we have all seen.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

SKM at https://howtospendit.ft.com/vehicles/201068-the-hydrofoil-sailing-revolution-started-by-the-america-s-cup

For Ben Ainslie Racing’s co-founder Sir Keith Mills, stability in the Cup is key for its future in the modern, commercialised world. “One of the big steps forward in creating this framework agreement is that it has dealt with much of the usual uncertainty about the boats and the length of the Cup cycle, and placed us in a position where we as a team can enter negotiations with our commercial partners on the basis that the America’s Cup will take place in 2019 and 2021. For instance, we would know that it will be in very similar boats to the ones that we are currently racing in, and there would be a World Series of up to eight to 12 events in major cities around the world. The blank sheet of paper that was traditionally presented to teams after each event had been won has gone away, and that’s a big step forward. It’s still got a long way to go compared to, say, tennis, football and Formula One, but it’s a good step in the right direction.”

Ironic that you dig this up when have spent the last eight years telling us what a fucking arsehole sir Keef is...

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

SKM at https://howtospendit.ft.com/vehicles/201068-the-hydrofoil-sailing-revolution-started-by-the-america-s-cup

For Ben Ainslie Racing’s co-founder Sir Keith Mills, stability in the Cup is key for its future in the modern, commercialised world. “One of the big steps forward in creating this framework agreement is that it has dealt with much of the usual uncertainty about the boats and the length of the Cup cycle, and placed us in a position where we as a team can enter negotiations with our commercial partners on the basis that the America’s Cup will take place in 2019 and 2021. For instance, we would know that it will be in very similar boats to the ones that we are currently racing in, and there would be a World Series of up to eight to 12 events in major cities around the world. The blank sheet of paper that was traditionally presented to teams after each event had been won has gone away, and that’s a big step forward. It’s still got a long way to go compared to, say, tennis, football and Formula One, but it’s a good step in the right direction.”

SKM always has an interesting view.

Incertainty is part of the AC but it seems that the CoR/D could be more open on the concept to help sponsors.

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15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

SKM always has an interesting view.

Incertainty is part of the AC but it seems that the CoR/D could be more open on the concept to help sponsors.

The reason I posted SKM's views on it it because, like with what BA and Whitmarsh said about the subject, it supports the notion that the London Agreement, which is also where that announcement event was held, was an example of what you had suggested above: An attempt by GGYC to accomodate what the majority of Challengers wanted, as opposed to the other way around.

ETNZ attacked the London Agreement but (deviously) refused to divulge the main reason - which was their own deal already done - their own, longer ago established, secret Milano Framework agreement.

It got spun by NZ Media, NZ fanboys, and ETNZ, as being yet another big conspiracy perpetrated by Evil Doers solely for the purpose of screwing one team only, the holier ETNZ. Falsely so.

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On 05/10/2017 at 9:06 AM, Sailbydate said:

What the fuck would he know about it?

Even the Pope can't stay in a Choirboy forever...

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35 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The reason I posted SKM's views on it it because, like with what BA and Whitmarsh said about the subject, it supports the notion that the London Agreement, which is also where that announcement event was held, was an example of what you had suggested above: An attempt by GGYC to accomodate what the majority of Challengers wanted, as opposed to the other way around.

ETNZ attacked the London Agreement but (deviously) refused to divulge the main reason - which was their own deal already done - their own, longer ago established, secret Milano Framework agreement.

It got spun by NZ Media, NZ fanboys, and ETNZ, as being yet another big conspiracy perpetrated by Evil Doers solely for the purpose of screwing one team only, the holier ETNZ. Falsely so.

The London Agreement was BS, plain and simple. ETNZ and LR are correct to make it back to where the Defender deals with the Challenger only. All the others do not matter other than to the Challenger. It only matters to the defender when it is match time and the Challenger did not wind the selection series.

And no arrangements for future matches are made until the current one is settled.

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The NZ/Italian pre-agreement/arrangement was no different. It was an agreement between them of what those two parties ~would~ do in the future should they have the opportunity, just like between what any possible eventual two who had signed to the London Agreement. Neither agreement one was illegal or wrong.

The difference is that one agreement had more support and a great deal more transparency. 

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The London Agreement was self-serving for the money train. ETNZ and LR were just agreeing that this was screwed-up and if we get the chance we will take it back to what it used to, and ought to, be per the DoG.

Like GD said in his interview with Clean, they basically went back to 2003 with a few modifications based on recent history and how things have changed.

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26 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

The London Agreement was self-serving for the money train.

ETNZ and LR were just agreeing that this was screwed-up and if we get the chance we will take it back to what it used to, and ought to, be per the DoG.

Like GD said in his interview with Clean, they basically went back to 2003 with a few modifications based on recent history and how things have changed.

1 The money train is why GD pre-agreed that Italian Job deal. GD was desperate for money, look closely at that timeline.

2 Nothing ETNZ/LR agreed to is closer to the DoG than anything else that might have happened

3 Yes, 'they basically went back.'

What RC, arguably the greatest AC influence in America's Cup History, said this week is true:

"There is a lot of very traditional thinking in this sport and it’s a non-traditional world now. When I look at the people making those comments, they are generally older people who are, dare I say it, stuck in their old ways. I think you need to be careful about viewing life like that. At some point, you need to look at it through a young person’s eyes and try to imagine what they would have been like when they were 20, or even younger.”

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/10/07/russell-coutts-happy-change-tack/

 

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40 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

1 The money train is why GD pre-agreed that Italian Job deal. GD was desperate for money, look closely at that timeline.

2 Nothing ETNZ/LR agreed to is closer to the DoG than anything else that might have happened

3 Yes, 'they basically went back.' with a few modifications based on recent history and how things have changed.

What RC, arguably the greatest AC influence in America's Cup History, said this week is true:

"There is a lot of very traditional thinking in this sport and it’s a non-traditional world now. When I look at the people making those comments, they are generally older people who are, dare I say it, stuck in their old ways. I think you need to be careful about viewing life like that. At some point, you need to look at it through a young person’s eyes and try to imagine what they would have been like when they were 20, or even younger.”

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/10/07/russell-coutts-happy-change-tack/

 

Don't parse the statement to further your agenda. RC is the one who helped screw things up.

From the article:

“I don’t really have any ambitions to continue with the America’s Cup at this point,” he says. “I have had quite a few years involved with it, loved it, fantastic event, but there are other things to do in life.

“In some ways, you need fresh people to come in and they have obviously given it quite a different treatment this time and I say good for them. I certainly hope it’s a huge success in terms of the impact it could have on junior sailing in this country.”

There are plenty options for those that want to go radical and high-tech in their sailing. That does not make it better, just different, and if it becomes popular to a point of being mainstream then so be it. Right now an Xbox controlled foiling catamaran is not it yet.

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Most of the world also left 1967 Malibus in their wake, starting 5 decades ago. Progress happened.

And Gen 5 Vette's recently. Also, get the right year and model when you are trying to make a point...

A TP52 style boat is not a 12m or IACC boat either.

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4 hours ago, Nutta said:

Even the Pope can't stay in a Choirboy forever...

Has there ever been a shortage of Choirboys? 

Anyway, I though the garçon de jour was of the Altaboy variety. 

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

1 The money train is why GD pre-agreed that Italian Job deal. GD was desperate for money, look closely at that timeline.

2 Nothing ETNZ/LR agreed to is closer to the DoG than anything else that might have happened

3 Yes, 'they basically went back.'

What RC, arguably the greatest AC influence in America's Cup History, said this week is true:

"There is a lot of very traditional thinking in this sport and it’s a non-traditional world now. When I look at the people making those comments, they are generally older people who are, dare I say it, stuck in their old ways. I think you need to be careful about viewing life like that. At some point, you need to look at it through a young person’s eyes and try to imagine what they would have been like when they were 20, or even younger.”

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/10/07/russell-coutts-happy-change-tack/

 

I think those are sage words from RC, Stinger - about life generally. The man is no fool.

But here's the thing. RC tried it his way and failed. Now it's the new guard's turn. They may fuck it up. They may not. Time will tell.

But you harping on about RC being the best fucking thing to happen to the AC will not change the future. To influence the direction of the Cup, you have to be the holder. Everything else is just noise.

 

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 Nothing ETNZ/LR agreed to is closer to the DoG than anything else that might have happened

 

Not really.

The present CoR is Deed compliant, but any other challenger winning the CSS won't fullfill the " Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country......, shall always be entitled...." as they have to fullfill other requirements, some of which financial, with the CoR, who can even modify it at will.

The separation between the CSS and the match is not relevant as when a challenger ceases, another one has to fullfill the same conditions.

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5 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

The London Agreement was BS,

 

I was not for it, but the agreement with LR was the same, the only difference was that it was unknown at the time and that TNZ won.

The other difference is that AC35 competitors were not poodles, in AC36 they are reduced to real poodles with no say, under the excuse of a strong CoR.

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Most of the world also left 1967 Malibus in their wake, starting 5 decades ago. Progress happened.

Not all change is progress. Especially in sport. In sailing we have better boats than we ever did but we do not have better racing than we ever did.

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37 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I was not for it, but the agreement with LR was the same, the only difference was that it was unknown at the time and that TNZ won.

The other difference is that AC35 competitors were not poodles, in AC36 they are reduced to real poodles with no say, under the excuse of a strong CoR.

Bollocks. It was orifice trying to force it's desired vision in the cup regardless of who won.

In this case it was etnz/LR agreeing if etnz won.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Not really.

The present CoR is Deed compliant, but any other challenger winning the CSS won't fullfill the " Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country......, shall always be entitled...." as they have to fullfill other requirements, some of which financial, with the CoR, who can even modify it at will.

The separation between the CSS and the match is not relevant as when a challenger ceases, another one has to fullfill the same conditions.

Have the other Calls lodged a Deed compliant challenge? Have there been MC negotiations between the Def and each of them? If not, will there be some, once one of them becomes CoR?

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8 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Most of the world also left 1967 Malibus in their wake, starting 5 decades ago. Progress happened.

Most of the world has moved on from sports cars with huge V8 truck motors, leaf spring suspension and Tupperware bodywork..progress started with the Lotus seven fifty years ago..

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5 hours ago, jaysper said:

Bollocks. It was orifice trying to force it's desired vision in the cup regardless of who won.

In this case it was etnz/LR agreeing if etnz won.

That's not correct. The 4 teams in addition to Oracle had no need to sign the framework agreement but every single one of them wanted to. Most of the sailors wanted to stay in multis as well. I cannot see any way that Oracle could have applied pressure to BAR who had the biggest budget or to Artemis although SBTJ and GTF might have been a different matter. 

As for ETNZ and LR, call it an agreement if you want but I see it as very different from the framework. Bertelli offered to keep ETNZ in teh game with technology, personnel and money in exchange for ETNZ agreeing to their terms. Imagine it the other way around. If Oracle had offered BAR and Artemis money to agree to what Oracle wanted, what do you think would have happened? Besides turning down OR, if it got out there would have been a huge outcry, but because it is LR and ETNZ, the same behaviour is considered OK?

I am not over it. Its done and nothing is going to change it. I am simply disappointed in ETNZ because i thought they would be different.

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45 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

That's not correct. The 4 teams in addition to Oracle had no need to sign the framework agreement but every single one of them wanted to. Most of the sailors wanted to stay in multis as well. I cannot see any way that Oracle could have applied pressure to BAR who had the biggest budget or to Artemis although SBTJ and GTF might have been a different matter. 

As for ETNZ and LR, call it an agreement if you want but I see it as very different from the framework. Bertelli offered to keep ETNZ in teh game with technology, personnel and money in exchange for ETNZ agreeing to their terms. Imagine it the other way around. If Oracle had offered BAR and Artemis money to agree to what Oracle wanted, what do you think would have happened? Besides turning down OR, if it got out there would have been a huge outcry, but because it is LR and ETNZ, the same behaviour is considered OK?

I am not over it. Its done and nothing is going to change it. I am simply disappointed in ETNZ because i thought they would be different.

 

45 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

That's not correct. The 4 teams in addition to Oracle had no need to sign the framework agreement but every single one of them wanted to. Most of the sailors wanted to stay in multis as well. I cannot see any way that Oracle could have applied pressure to BAR who had the biggest budget or to Artemis although SBTJ and GTF might have been a different matter. 

As for ETNZ and LR, call it an agreement if you want but I see it as very different from the framework. Bertelli offered to keep ETNZ in teh game with technology, personnel and money in exchange for ETNZ agreeing to their terms. Imagine it the other way around. If Oracle had offered BAR and Artemis money to agree to what Oracle wanted, what do you think would have happened? Besides turning down OR, if it got out there would have been a huge outcry, but because it is LR and ETNZ, the same behaviour is considered OK?

 

Let's start with the fact that Oracle and Coutts encouraged the Japanese entry, provided designs in lieu of cash and virtually manufactured a job for Spithill. And that's OK with you? C'mon!

The London agreement was a concerted and selfish effort by the Defender and the four Northern clubs to hijack the Protocol long after it was set in stone but after HIYC got cold feed and handed over to Luna Rossa which committed a grave error in not accepting a full CoR role. 

Faced with mutiny in the ranks Bertelli pulled out and offered resources to the Kiwis.

There were obviously understandings in place between Italy and NZ but we wouldn't be looking at the AC36 Protocol unless NZ won in Bermuda.

ETNZ honestly earned the right to defend.  

The Italians after waiting in the wings had their chance to challenge.

And you're "disappointed in NZ"!

Oh dear!

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