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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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dacapo

phrf handicap J105

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I have a question which I hate to ask..........it doesn;t matter which region, it doesn;t matter which boat, this is not OD racing or about wingniuts or about shitty sailing. This  is more about the ODR rating and what constitutes this rating compared to a different rating.  If a boat gets a headsail that is still 100% jib (npo bigger than the ODR headsail)  but is NOT legal in One Design (either because of the material or cut of the jib) , should it still get the ODR rating under phrf?  or should it at least be brought to the attention of the handicapper? to  and phrf committee to make that decision?  especailly when the cert says "Class jib"  and I was told that the jib is not a "Class approved jib"

 

Doyle Stratis Carbon Technora IRC-PHRF Jib

 

 
Great performer in handicap racing. We add area to the girth of the sail and bring the roach right back to the spreaders. For non-class sailing, this sail points higher than the class jib and inhauls well. Design also available in Carbon triradial construction.

 

 

 

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Dude..... don't shit the bed for the rest of the 105s that are trying to get their PHRF rating to be fair.

That sail you describe would never measure in (by your own admission) so don't try passing it off as a class jib. Go ahead and put in a carbon fibre mast while you're at it. Take out the corrector weights too.

Sorry that you spent the $$$$... maybe you can make some gear bags out of it.

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not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

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34 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

The rating might end up the same...  but it should definitely be declared.  If the boat is using that sail and sailing under an ODR rating then it’s out of compliance.  The other boat should use the J/105 non-ODR rating and request/declare adjustments to match the sail configuration it uses when racing PHRF.

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48 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

Wow.... you're an even bigger tool than I originally thought

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1 hour ago, dacapo said:

not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

 

I have had this same discussion with the Young American group.  My position (which counts for nothing)  is if your PHRF rating is OD then you need to race in that configuration.  If you change something that takes the boat out of OD configuation to go faster, which this jib looks to be, then your boat is faster and the numerical rating should go down. (I guess you could do something to make your boat go slower and hope for a better rating.)  

Although PHRF takes a bunch of numbers and measurements, by definition PHRF is a performance handicap system.  So if you do something to change the performance of the boat the rating should change.

The J/105 has a very fair OD PHRF rating, so why bother trying to mess around with it.   If you only race PHRF it would be nice to get something other than a dacron main sail that constantly needs replacing but other than that not sure why you would want to change things to get out of OD.

 

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1 hour ago, robalex117 said:

I have had this same discussion with the Young American group.  My position (which counts for nothing)  is if your PHRF rating is OD then you need to race in that configuration.  If you change something that takes the boat out of OD configuation to go faster, which this jib looks to be, then your boat is faster and the numerical rating should go down. (I guess you could do something to make your boat go slower and hope for a better rating.)  

Although PHRF takes a bunch of numbers and measurements, by definition PHRF is a performance handicap system.  So if you do something to change the performance of the boat the rating should change.

The J/105 has a very fair OD PHRF rating, so why bother trying to mess around with it.   If you only race PHRF it would be nice to get something other than a dacron main sail that constantly needs replacing but other than that not sure why you would want to change things to get out of OD.

 

Further, isn't there a presumption that any change is designed to make the boat faster so there ought to be a presumptive hit until actual performance can be observed? If it would not comly in one design it should not qualify as the ODR configuration. It should be noted on their cert and the PHRF overlords should issue a rating.

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how about crew limits when sailed under the PHFR OD Rating? Keep same as class? Sail purchase limitations? requirement to keep the cushions aboard? Luff slides requirement?

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2 hours ago, jbigden said:

how about crew limits when sailed under the PHFR OD Rating? Keep same as class? Sail purchase limitations? requirement to keep the cushions aboard? Luff slides requirement?

Just remember.... this sword has a double edge.... I hope your PHRF lead mines have all their lead. 

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There is no double edge sword to people who have honestly reported their boat and its configuration to their PHRF handicapper...

That said, Decapo, I think region does matter as each region "defines" what it means to be ODR.  For example, ECSA says:

"Boats with an ODR PHRF rating must conform to the hull, rig, and sail configuration specified by its One-Design Class. Additional class requirements such as limitations on crew weight, hiking, sail size or materials, number of on-board sails, new sail purchases, etc., will not apply"

Where as PHRF of the Chesapeake says:

"PHRF may, when requested by established one design classes, assign a rating to the one design configuration of that class. Each individual boat which desires to be issued a one design rating (ODR), must specifically request an ODR and agree to race only in that configuration in PHRF handicapped races."

further it says

"ODR (One Design Rating) rating certificates will have crew limitations as established by the national One Design class rules."

So in ECSA, one design crew limits do not apply, while on the Chesapeake, they do.  I think you need to look very carefully at how your region defines "ODR ratings" and what requirements are specified to be ODR compliant in your region.

Also the other issue is that PHRF typical corrects in 3 sec increments.  In this case, if the sail size is the same as OD, but built with a different shape, I'm not sure it will make a 3 sec difference.  Typically, ODR means a small jib and smaller chute, where as PHRF allows a 155 genny and a larger chute. Yet for a J/109, the difference was only 6 secs.  So you could sorta assume going from the genny to the class jib was worth -3 secs and going from the max PHRF to class chute was worth -3 secs.  Not sure that just changing the shape of the small jib would result in a 3 sec change in speed.  So it might be a wash anyway.

Crash

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On Narragansett Bay I asked the PHRF-NB committee a similar question a few years back when I had my J/30 and wanted to use a lighter spinnaker.  Class rules limit it to 3/4 oz cloth.  I asked what the rating hit would be for a spinnaker that was same size as the class spin, but made from 1/2 oz cloth.  The answer came back that there would be no rating change, as they only are concerned on the sail dimensions, not the cloth weight.  The 1/2 oz spinnaker makes a huge difference in light air.

So - YMMV in different PHRF regions, but see what your PHRF committee responds with when asked.

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