dacapo

phrf handicap J105

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I have a question which I hate to ask..........it doesn;t matter which region, it doesn;t matter which boat, this is not OD racing or about wingniuts or about shitty sailing. This  is more about the ODR rating and what constitutes this rating compared to a different rating.  If a boat gets a headsail that is still 100% jib (npo bigger than the ODR headsail)  but is NOT legal in One Design (either because of the material or cut of the jib) , should it still get the ODR rating under phrf?  or should it at least be brought to the attention of the handicapper? to  and phrf committee to make that decision?  especailly when the cert says "Class jib"  and I was told that the jib is not a "Class approved jib"

 

Doyle Stratis Carbon Technora IRC-PHRF Jib

 

 
Great performer in handicap racing. We add area to the girth of the sail and bring the roach right back to the spreaders. For non-class sailing, this sail points higher than the class jib and inhauls well. Design also available in Carbon triradial construction.

 

 

 

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Dude..... don't shit the bed for the rest of the 105s that are trying to get their PHRF rating to be fair.

That sail you describe would never measure in (by your own admission) so don't try passing it off as a class jib. Go ahead and put in a carbon fibre mast while you're at it. Take out the corrector weights too.

Sorry that you spent the $$$$... maybe you can make some gear bags out of it.

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not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

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34 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

The rating might end up the same...  but it should definitely be declared.  If the boat is using that sail and sailing under an ODR rating then it’s out of compliance.  The other boat should use the J/105 non-ODR rating and request/declare adjustments to match the sail configuration it uses when racing PHRF.

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48 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

Wow.... you're an even bigger tool than I originally thought

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1 hour ago, dacapo said:

not me bro....I swore off 105's 6 years ago ;-)

It's a boat we race against in phrf...my question is should the handicap number change...casue now he still has the same handicap with the irc/phrf sail....by the HIS admission and by the sailmaker's admission.  

 

My question is  the sails have the same S/A  so would the handicap be the same  under phrf?

 

 

I have had this same discussion with the Young American group.  My position (which counts for nothing)  is if your PHRF rating is OD then you need to race in that configuration.  If you change something that takes the boat out of OD configuation to go faster, which this jib looks to be, then your boat is faster and the numerical rating should go down. (I guess you could do something to make your boat go slower and hope for a better rating.)  

Although PHRF takes a bunch of numbers and measurements, by definition PHRF is a performance handicap system.  So if you do something to change the performance of the boat the rating should change.

The J/105 has a very fair OD PHRF rating, so why bother trying to mess around with it.   If you only race PHRF it would be nice to get something other than a dacron main sail that constantly needs replacing but other than that not sure why you would want to change things to get out of OD.

 

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1 hour ago, robalex117 said:

I have had this same discussion with the Young American group.  My position (which counts for nothing)  is if your PHRF rating is OD then you need to race in that configuration.  If you change something that takes the boat out of OD configuation to go faster, which this jib looks to be, then your boat is faster and the numerical rating should go down. (I guess you could do something to make your boat go slower and hope for a better rating.)  

Although PHRF takes a bunch of numbers and measurements, by definition PHRF is a performance handicap system.  So if you do something to change the performance of the boat the rating should change.

The J/105 has a very fair OD PHRF rating, so why bother trying to mess around with it.   If you only race PHRF it would be nice to get something other than a dacron main sail that constantly needs replacing but other than that not sure why you would want to change things to get out of OD.

 

Further, isn't there a presumption that any change is designed to make the boat faster so there ought to be a presumptive hit until actual performance can be observed? If it would not comly in one design it should not qualify as the ODR configuration. It should be noted on their cert and the PHRF overlords should issue a rating.

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how about crew limits when sailed under the PHFR OD Rating? Keep same as class? Sail purchase limitations? requirement to keep the cushions aboard? Luff slides requirement?

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2 hours ago, jbigden said:

how about crew limits when sailed under the PHFR OD Rating? Keep same as class? Sail purchase limitations? requirement to keep the cushions aboard? Luff slides requirement?

Just remember.... this sword has a double edge.... I hope your PHRF lead mines have all their lead. 

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There is no double edge sword to people who have honestly reported their boat and its configuration to their PHRF handicapper...

That said, Decapo, I think region does matter as each region "defines" what it means to be ODR.  For example, ECSA says:

"Boats with an ODR PHRF rating must conform to the hull, rig, and sail configuration specified by its One-Design Class. Additional class requirements such as limitations on crew weight, hiking, sail size or materials, number of on-board sails, new sail purchases, etc., will not apply"

Where as PHRF of the Chesapeake says:

"PHRF may, when requested by established one design classes, assign a rating to the one design configuration of that class. Each individual boat which desires to be issued a one design rating (ODR), must specifically request an ODR and agree to race only in that configuration in PHRF handicapped races."

further it says

"ODR (One Design Rating) rating certificates will have crew limitations as established by the national One Design class rules."

So in ECSA, one design crew limits do not apply, while on the Chesapeake, they do.  I think you need to look very carefully at how your region defines "ODR ratings" and what requirements are specified to be ODR compliant in your region.

Also the other issue is that PHRF typical corrects in 3 sec increments.  In this case, if the sail size is the same as OD, but built with a different shape, I'm not sure it will make a 3 sec difference.  Typically, ODR means a small jib and smaller chute, where as PHRF allows a 155 genny and a larger chute. Yet for a J/109, the difference was only 6 secs.  So you could sorta assume going from the genny to the class jib was worth -3 secs and going from the max PHRF to class chute was worth -3 secs.  Not sure that just changing the shape of the small jib would result in a 3 sec change in speed.  So it might be a wash anyway.

Crash

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On Narragansett Bay I asked the PHRF-NB committee a similar question a few years back when I had my J/30 and wanted to use a lighter spinnaker.  Class rules limit it to 3/4 oz cloth.  I asked what the rating hit would be for a spinnaker that was same size as the class spin, but made from 1/2 oz cloth.  The answer came back that there would be no rating change, as they only are concerned on the sail dimensions, not the cloth weight.  The 1/2 oz spinnaker makes a huge difference in light air.

So - YMMV in different PHRF regions, but see what your PHRF committee responds with when asked.

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Along these lines. How does a code zero fit in. It's cut to meet the requirements of a spinnaker and smaller than class chute. Should it take a hit in phrf ?

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On 10/3/2017 at 12:01 PM, robalex117 said:

I have had this same discussion with the Young American group.  My position (which counts for nothing)  is if your PHRF rating is OD then you need to race in that configuration.  If you change something that takes the boat out of OD configuation to go faster, which this jib looks to be, then your boat is faster and the numerical rating should go down. (I guess you could do something to make your boat go slower and hope for a better rating.)  

Although PHRF takes a bunch of numbers and measurements, by definition PHRF is a performance handicap system.  So if you do something to change the performance of the boat the rating should change.

The J/105 has a very fair OD PHRF rating, so why bother trying to mess around with it.   If you only race PHRF it would be nice to get something other than a dacron main sail that constantly needs replacing but other than that not sure why you would want to change things to get out of OD.

  

What do the 105 class rules say about flying a jib off the end of the sprit?

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Yeah I saw the flying jib setup on YA and thought the same thing. That is not OD configuration. 

 

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Why you would buy a 105 to do anything but OD racing is beyond me.  If gaming handicaps is your bag, there's got to be a way easier way to do it that doesn't involve having a massive OD fleet to compare your changes against.  

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4 hours ago, Kevlar Edge said:

Yeah I saw the flying jib setup on YA and thought the same thing. That is not OD configuration. 

 

during the ALIR in which they  took 1st?

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8 hours ago, Kevlar Edge said:

Yup. 

That’s Ridiculous B)

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Maybe a dumb question, but is the phrf rating different if you don't change sail size? 

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12 hours ago, Skaf said:

Why you would buy a 105 to do anything but OD racing is beyond me.  

I'm looking at a used J 105. It berths in a local marina.  The closest 105 OD fleet to me is some 50+ miles away.  Rules out Wead night beer can racing and getting the boat to and from a typical weekend regatta is a major time commitment. So if I buy this thing I'll race it PHRF on Wed night and weekends at my local club.  

Why not a different boat? Tbe 105 does what I need it to do.  Passable interior for overnight or weekends, good resale value, easy boat to double-hand.  Don't need or want a boat with. Full cruising interior.  Don't need or want a stripped out racer where I need 6 bodies on the rail.

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jerseyguy

 

I brought my 105 for the same reason. I am the only one in Buffalo and race in the one design configuration. All sails are tagged, no PHRF rule beaters. We rate at 90 and race against 3 J/35 PHRF of 72 and 2 J/33 PHRF of 84. We find the rating to be very fair. PHRF LE hits the boat with a 15 seconds if you add the 155 jib and the 110 spinnaker. We find this unnecessary and defeats many of the reasons we brought the 105 to begin with.

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Fancy sail material generally does not get a PHRF hit. You should declare it, but it's unlikely that the PHRF committee will be able to justify a rating change.

Most fancy sail materials won't make a big enough difference in one race anyway - the main effect will be in being faster for longer. J105s have a sail limit rule - 2 one year, 3 the next - to reduce cost. The fancy sail might let you change your buying pattern from jib/kite every year and main every other year to allow a new main every year, for example. Once again, not a PHRF issue.

 

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The J/105 is one of three boats with two National Reference Ratings from US Sailing.

90 - J/105 ODR

81 - J/105 PHRF (155% genoa, 110 m^2 spinnaker)

 

The Melges 24 is another.

96 - Melges 24 ODR

90 - Melges 24 PHRF

 

And for a different reason, the J/120.

51 - J/120 AL

48 - J/120 CF

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On 7/31/2018 at 3:33 PM, Kevlar Edge said:

Yeah I saw the flying jib setup on YA and thought the same thing. That is not OD configuration. 

  

Sounds like Robalex117 needs to have another conversation with the Young American group....

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

Sounds like Robalex117 needs to have another conversation with the Young American group....

Actually this year the rules for PHRF have changed. If you notice the ratings no longer refer to the J/105 as J105ODR.  I am no expert on the details but what I understand is boats don't need to be in ODR configuation anymore.  But they still need to abide by PHRF rules.  So as long as the sail area is the same, weight is the same and they have not modified the boat the rating is the same as prior years when the boat was refered to J105-ODR.  

But now boats don't need to abide by the class rules that were in confilict with PHRF.  

So for example I believe J/105 ODR racing you are only allowed to carry two spinnakers.  No such rule in PHRF so now racing a J/105 you could carry more.  Of course if you have a larger chute than the clase size you would need to declare that.

Same with a main.  Class rules are dacron but that does not last long, so for PHRF they could have a main made out of more hi tech material. 

Same with Jibs.  For class racing you are only allowed two, but not so for PHRF.  So as long as that jib they were flying was not larger than their class jib there were fine.  (It was not, I know that for a fact.)

Also this is not just for the J-105.  All boats that had ODR after their rating now have that suffix removed.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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