Alan H

Bob Perry, this thing is cute as all get out.

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I was looking at your "drawings" page and found this:

20gaffcuttersailplanlarge.png

I love it!  What's the scoop on that little boat?  Got any pictures of the final build you can share?

Me, I'd probably sail it all day without the topsail, but with that keel and hull shape I bet she scoots along pretty good. ON top of that, she's about 20x better looking that anything currently out there around 20 feet that I know of.

 

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Thanks Alan:

That little hooker was designed for a shrink in New Orleans. He and his wife had "bad knees" so they wanted a stable boat. He hired me to help him find a boat. We cold not find one he liked. Then he said, "Could you design a boat that would fit my needs?" I said I could and off we went. The boat was built by Dennis Choate in Longbeach Ca and it has an all carbon rig. It sails very well. I'd bet that Jim Betts could build you a very nice one.

36774583834_e62789b3b3_z.jpgOF20 bow on pic by robert perry, on Flickr

37484061821_154e8c39ac_b.jpgOF20 stern shot by robert perry, on Flickr

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kind of like the Harbor 20 except...well.... cooler. Like by a long shot.

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I missed the old thread with the pictures. Old Fart 20. Well, I'm an old fart, now.

See, you leave for 6-8 years and  look at all the stuff you miss.

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That is the largest boat Perry has designed..I read that alongside 9/11 and Armstrong stepping on the moon were all Hollywood concoctions so it must be true.

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Alan:

The Harbor 20 is a fine boat but it has zero style.

I notice on the sail plan you posted the Old Fart logo I designed is missing.

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7 hours ago, Alan H said:

I missed the old thread with the pictures. Old Fart 20. Well, I'm an old fart, now.

See, you leave for 6-8 years and  look at all the stuff you miss.

Heck, I left for 10 years! Still just a squeaky fart..

Now there are more cool boats to look at and dream about...

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I love it. It is a wonderful blending of classic and modern elements.

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Several years ago, Bob had a 18ish boat he designed for himself - that was sweeeeeet. It was posted here, but I can't find it. Even had his guitar drawn into the plans.

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I've always wanted to do something like this with a cruising rig...and with a racing rig...shown below with a "scaled" FT 7.5 rig pasted in.  Make the bowsprit straight (vice curved as the OF20) with a extendable section to fly the asym from?

 

59d5031082867_BobsOF20RacingRig.thumb.png.aa22f8f66490f9eddff14bcefb857f49.png

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... which brings up a question. Is the gaff rig with topsail strictly for styling and nostalgia, or is there actually any advantage of this over a standard masthead main?

 

OK, at second look, maybe I'm answering my own question. It allows for a shorter less robust mast with no spreaders. Is that it?

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2 hours ago, wristwister said:

... which brings up a question. Is the gaff rig with topsail strictly for styling and nostalgia, or is there actually any advantage of this over a standard masthead main?

 

OK, at second look, maybe I'm answering my own question. It allows for a shorter less robust mast with no spreaders. Is that it?

No spreaders....  three-point/three-stays rig is pretty simple. With the gaff you actually get some extra area up high, and since this gaff is carbon it doesn't add a lot of weight. About the only downside to this, except that last 3 degrees of pointing ability, is with the shrouds aft, you can't let the boom out as far when going downwind.

I would own one of these, maybe scaled up to maybe 24 feet 'cause it's windier and bouncier on San Francisco Bay than in San Diego, as a nice retirement daysailer/weekend cruiser.  I just sailed around the Bay on a couple of windy days and didn't get too wet in my S2 7.9 but I remember getting soaked in my Cal 20.

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A number of years ago, Paul Bieker designed a 16 foot dinghy for the Wooden Boat School, in part so the school could teach vaccum cold-molding if I remember rightly.  That boat  had an unstayed carbon mast, and was "gaff" rigged. It's just that instead of the usual gaff, it had a pre-sprung/curved carbon gaff that inserted into a "sleeve" that slid up and down the mast, to hoist the sail. I remember seeing the boat at the WBF about 12-13 years ago.  It was very cool.

The thing is, Bob's Old Fart 20, with that blunt bow and external rudder, well...the hull just says "I'm of a certain age". To go slap a hightech-looking rig on it...I dunno.  The carbon gaff rig is high-tech in material and Old Skool in looks.  Note that the boat weighs in at 3500 pounds. That's no lightweight 20-footer, but an awful lot of that weight is in lead, way way down below the waterline.  The carbon rig won't weigh much, but it has plenty of simple sail area. The little boat should move along just fine, but she's not going to be "tippy" in the slightest.  That works just great for Bob's clients with lousy knees.

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Honestly, I don't know of another boat in this size range that's covering the same sort of territory.  The Swallow  Boats Bay Raider Expedition is sort of the same idea, but with water ballast and a swing keel.....

and two masts and and and ...not really the same thing at all.

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23 minutes ago, Alan H said:

No spreaders....  three-point/three-stays rig is pretty simple. With the gaff you actually get some extra area up high, and since this gaff is carbon it doesn't add a lot of weight. About the only downside to this, except that last 3 degrees of pointing ability, is with the shrouds aft, you can't let the boom out as far when going downwind.

I would own one of these, maybe scaled up to maybe 24 feet 'cause it's windier and bouncier on San Francisco Bay than in San Diego, as a nice retirement daysailer/weekend cruiser.  I just sailed around the Bay on a couple of windy days and didn't get too wet in my S2 7.9 but I remember getting soaked in my Cal 20.

Alan,

I love gaff rigs, and I'd bet Bob's version does pretty well as gaffs go, but I'd bet you're pointing alot more than 3 degrees higher in your S2 7.9 than the OF20.  That's not meant as any criticism of the OF20, its just inherent in a main that just can't be sheeted in that tight (because the gaff falls off), meaning you can't sheet the jib too tight either or you choke off the slot.

Crash

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4 minutes ago, Crash said:

Alan,

I love gaff rigs, and I'd bet Bob's version does pretty well as gaffs go, but I'd bet you're pointing alot more than 3 degrees higher in your S2 7.9 than the OF20.  That's not meant as any criticism of the OF20, its just inherent in a main that just can't be sheeted in that tight (because the gaff falls off), meaning you can't sheet the jib too tight either or you choke off the slot.

Crash

Yeah, probably.  You're probably right, it might be more like 8-9  or even ten degrees which is a LOT when you're racing.

But look at the boat.  ------ Racing??  I mean, if I owned that boat, it would mean something, probably that "racing" was no longer a big priority. If I wanted to race I'd go let someone else pay the bills and I'll bring lunch. Also, Bob's clients have bad knees. I think racing is probably not in their plans.  If that's the case, then who cares if it takes another pair of tacks to get where you're going?

That's not a racing boat. That's a "fart-around, let's have a beer in the sun" boat.  Sounds good to me.

As an aside, I went racing last weekend and couldn't point for shit.  Halfway through Sundays' event I figured out what wasn't working. ugh.

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I dunno, folks race Harbor 20's, and that boat, while sorta the same mission, doesn't look nearly as good.  I sorta like the idea of a casual club racer that looks like a throwback to yester-year.  And not sure I mind not being able to hike either.  Legs in racing with a total crew of 2 or 3 is getting more and more appealing as I get less young.

But when I'm out just farting around, or off on a daysail, etc.  Then the look and visual appeal of the gaff rig really hits home to me...and I'll give up those 8 degrees or so just to look good!

 

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That's why the Alerion 28's are so popular, eh? Legs-in racing on a pretty boat where you can still spend money on string sails and stuff....

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In researching the entymology of 'Vang', I learned that the original Dutch usage was a line that went from the peak of the gaff to the windward rail (both sides, but only one active at a time).   Also called a 'Gaff Vang'  This would pull the gaff to weather, and presumably help the pointing ability of such a sail. 

Then again, I doubt modern gaffers do this. 

I like the little gaffer, but the cuddy needs to be at least big enough for a porta-potty. 

 

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I really like this boat but I'd go with a fathead main and ditch the gaff. I'd also ditch the sprit and just bring the bow all the way forward. I guess that means I'm not that into this boat but view it as a great start on the design of a nice 24'er.

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7 hours ago, LeoV said:

Secret 20 ?

secret20_1.jpg

Oh my...I love that!  Who built it?

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On 10/4/2017 at 8:12 AM, Bob Perry said:

Alan:

The Harbor 20 is a fine boat but it has zero style.

I notice on the sail plan you posted the Old Fart logo I designed is missing.

Bob,

What does the Old Fart Logo look like?

fs

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A kit... so cool!

An outboard well, even better. There's no way I would hang an OB off the stern and ruin the image of that boat.

My carpentry skills are decidedly below "mid-range."  I can certainly see the allure of this boat though. Fun to build, fun to sail, easy to stow, not terribly expensive as far as new boats go. It would seem to tick a lot of people's boxes.

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Yes, that's the one. I remember the thread during the design phase. If i win the lottery I'll ask you design me one with a retractable keel and sprit. The guitar storage could be used for anything other than storing a musical instrument. Any attempt of mine to make music would cause severe damage to the environment.

Thanks for digging out the drawings!

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Hi, LeoV!  Long time "no see"..sort of.

Twin headsails on a little 20-24 footer seems like too much work to me.  I guess you could shorten the sprit by a foot or so and just run one headsail, but you might mess up the balance.    Aside from that, that's a pretty boat!

Pen Hir is sweet...

pen-hir-01.jpg?fit=1024,809

But the underbody is very different from Bobs boat.

a50a31f5642cf620f0567179662f525d.jpg

 

I like this boat, though. It looks like a BOAT, not a 3-d printed twinkie. It's a good size. Might be a bit slowish with that long keel, but WTH, you wouldn't buy/build one of those to plane, anyway.  I wonder if Vivier's design objective was to take the mud...his client wanted the boat to set on the mud with a couple of stands. If so, then the long keel makes perfect sense.

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So Bob, if you were going to take your OF20 as a starting point, and stretch it out to about 24, what would you change?

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HI Alan, good to see you again.

Thought you liked the secret too, I was looking into them too. I get a shed free in a year, the 20 is small enough to fit.

Nice markets always gets filled, if successfully its no niche any more, if no sales occurs it failed, one sold and built, super cult.

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Alan H:

Not sure. I'd have to think about it a while and see what the client had in mind.I'd make sure I had 78" long cockpit seats for starters.

I like that Vivier boat.

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8 hours ago, carcrash said:

I like Dix's boats -- he really designs them to be inexpensive and easy to build, as he builds too.

So do I - I've been toying with building one for the last couple of years. Just a pity the lap lines have that funny kink and the reverse curve in them towards the stern when viewed from many angles - Quite apparent in the photo Crash posted. I know its only an optical effect, but I just know it would annoy me every time I look at the boat. Its put me off committing to starting the build so far.

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I have always thought that a Pen-Hir with a sporty keel would fly like crazy downwind, but reports say its already quite good and given its natural habitat, the shores of Brittany, this js probably the perfect set-up for a small boat in this area. You can clearly see Vivier's experience with working style sailboats.

As far as small gaffers go, I also love the Golant gaffer

gg_lurianna.jpg

 

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7 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

That kink in the Dix boat also disturbs me. You do not do things like that on purpose.

My guess is that was a 'builder' mistake, not a designer one.  Whether lapstrake or glued lap, there's a lot of 'art' in laying out the strakes that isn't always prescribed in the plans.  (and SOMETIMES, builders even deviate from the plans....:o )

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4 hours ago, Veeger said:

My guess is that was a 'builder' mistake, not a designer one.  Whether lapstrake or glued lap, there's a lot of 'art' in laying out the strakes that isn't always prescribed in the plans.  (and SOMETIMES, builders even deviate from the plans....:o )

I've watched/helped with a couple of similar hulls, and...  yes.

Here's a builder's thread, with a photo of a beauty:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?183982-The-Cape-Henry-21-building-thread&p=4339292#post4339292

 

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I think it likely takes a good eye and a bunch of  finesse in the end to get it to look right....esp as the third strake (down from deck edge) has to wrap and change direction quite significantly to meet up with the transom, which contributes (I think) to the hooked look.  But I also think the builder in the pic I posted made have made an error.  Too bad because his interior work was really nice.  It may just be part of the compromise of building with lapstrake ply panels?  I've done a bunch of looking, but haven't found another pic of a different boat taken from the same angle/perspective, so it all a bit of apples vs oranges from a comparison standpoint.

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On 06/10/2017 at 8:58 PM, Veeger said:

My guess is that was a 'builder' mistake, not a designer one.  Whether lapstrake or glued lap, there's a lot of 'art' in laying out the strakes that isn't always prescribed in the plans.  (and SOMETIMES, builders even deviate from the plans....:o )

Nope, designers 'mistake'. Either that or a lot of builders making the same mistake - it shows up in every boat built to that design (and in the smaller 19 foot version). Not always so apparent - depends on the angle the photos taken from, but its there. I think its an optical effect resulting from trying to keep the buttocks nice and staight for speed, while also trying to keep the width of the plywood planks uniform.

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12 hours ago, Matagi said:

Gofrou and Bihan also came to my mind

p1040225.jpg

8_882220175b.jpeg

Okay, need more info on these boats.  I thought these were Vivier designs but I don't see them on his website.

 

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17 hours ago, Veeger said:

Okay, need more info on these boats.  I thought these were Vivier designs but I don't see them on his website.

 

Here's where I look whenever I need more info...

IMG_5972.JPG

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thanks,  I was using the spelling in the post...  (normally, I'm pretty good with the google)

 

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4 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Is that something like Bing?

Yes, except Google works.

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I like both of those French boats, especially the Bihan 6.5 but they're not really the same thing as Bob's boat.  The two French boats are racing wolves hiding under a pretty high tech, high-peaked gunter rig.  Bob's boat weighs twice as much, carries most of that in lead, three feet down, and is intended for sailing, casual and relaxed beer drinking, and general gawking at the world as it goes by.  The French boats are intended to look modern and go fast.

...though I did enjoy the Bijan video, with the French dad steering and trimming the assy, while the woman sits on the other side of the boat, holding the toddler on her lap, wearing a lifejacket.  I'd admit that if someone showed up at my doorstep with a Bihan 6.5 all wrapped up pretty for my birthday, i woudn't say "no".

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But I think at this stage of my life, I'd rather have an Old Fart 20 than either of the French retro speedsters.

 

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On 10/6/2017 at 5:38 AM, Bob Perry said:

That kink in the Dix boat also disturbs me. You do not do things like that on purpose.

Dudley's drawings on his website show a nice even spring to the sheerline.  This builder's photos of the Cape Henry 21 show a decent sheerline.  Ending the wide cove stripe 18" from the transom doesn't look right though.

 ch21cardinali.jpg.d1e30d568969635ee8340b6aed5c2389.jpg59dc17f422bfa_ch21cardinali3(1).jpg.8bab40ed36514fe631be2fc14ed26abe.jpgch21cardinali4.jpg.50e0e1c2af4921546f508f009bc26cf0.jpg

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Back to the OF 20.  I really like that.  It has the character of one of Bob's cartoons, but it has been sveltized to make it look like a truly proper small yacht.

Here is a question for you gaff sailors:  Given high tech sails, spars and rigging, would it be possible to get enough leech tension to keep a traditionally shaped gaff from twisting off excessively?  I know with a battened square-top main, it just takes more vang or more mainsheet (depending on sheeting/traveller configuration) to keep the top from twisting off as compared with a pin-top or traditional marconi main.

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10 hours ago, Shu said:

Dudley's drawings on his website show a nice even spring to the sheerline.  This builder's photos of the Cape Henry 21 show a decent sheerline.  Ending the wide cove stripe 18" from the transom doesn't look right though.

 ch21cardinali.jpg.d1e30d568969635ee8340b6aed5c2389.jpg59dc17f422bfa_ch21cardinali3(1).jpg.8bab40ed36514fe631be2fc14ed26abe.jpgch21cardinali4.jpg.50e0e1c2af4921546f508f009bc26cf0.jpg

Its not the sheer thats the problem. Its the line made by the plan laps. You can begin to see it on the photo of the boat coming out of the shed. Look at the line of the bottom edge of the second plank down. Its got quite a tight curve in the zone under the cabin window, then the curve seems to flatten off. If you could see the plank line all the way back to the transom the line would look like its curving down. It doesn't actually curve down but thats what the eye sees. Its very apparent in the photo of the same boad at the link below (second photo down):

http://dixdesign.com/ch21sailing.htm

Its definitely an artefact of the design, rather than the builder, as the same effect appears in all the boats, most of which are built from CNC cut kits.

 

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OF20 kinda reminds me of Nigel Irens' Romilly.  Different rig and ballast, obviously.

Both cool looking boats.

 

 

IMG_4624.JPG

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On 10/5/2017 at 2:31 PM, Alan H said:

Pen Hir again.

SAM_1203.JPG

Here are  Vivier's comments about the boat, on the plans-ordering page.  Yes, he wanted to be able to beach it on stands..

http://www.vivierboats.com/en/product/pen-hir/

It's probably a longshot with only 3 built, but anyone have any more information on Pen Hir? It's just what I think I want (no offense to Bob and the OF20, it's quite nice)

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On 10/10/2017 at 4:37 AM, Jackett said:

Its not the sheer thats the problem. Its the line made by the plan laps. You can begin to see it on the photo of the boat coming out of the shed. Look at the line of the bottom edge of the second plank down. Its got quite a tight curve in the zone under the cabin window, then the curve seems to flatten off. If you could see the plank line all the way back to the transom the line would look like its curving down. It doesn't actually curve down but thats what the eye sees. Its very apparent in the photo of the same boad at the link below (second photo down):

http://dixdesign.com/ch21sailing.htm

Its definitely an artefact of the design, rather than the builder, as the same effect appears in all the boats, most of which are built from CNC cut kits.

 

The first Dix boat had a kink in the sheer as well, so that was what I was looking for (that's my excuse).  I completely missed the curve of the planking, and that is very disturbing (both the planking kink and my missing it).

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On 10/13/2017 at 8:52 PM, Bob Perry said:

I don't mind my cartoons looking like cartoons but I don't want my boats looking like cartoons.

37425740020_70ca4b2e9e_h.jpgPaul & Lorrie by robert perry, on Flickr

Bob,

No offense intended. I can't agree more that your boats are not cartoonish. 

A cartoon is a caricature, in that it exaggerates defining features.  Your cartoons exaggerate the defining features of small salty yachts that make the little yachts themselves a pleasure to view,  and make their caricatures elicit fond memories, a pleasant sigh, and hopes for future pleasant journeys on similar craft. 

Take that progression backward from cartoon to yacht, by removing the exaggerated-ness of all those pleasing features and you're left with the salty little yacht itself, in all its pleasant perfection. 

That's what I was trying to say, and I probably still haven't said it right - crap.  Just keep doing what you're doing and continue to make beautiful, functional boats and heart-warming cartoons; I love them both.

-Steve

-Steve

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Thanks Steve. Not sure I understand exactly what you are saying but I think I get the important part. Here's another for you. Drew this one for my buddy Dave, a very serious home wine maker.

37053245534_70c40d367b_h.jpgdave by robert perry, on Flickr

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I love the look of gaff rigs. I love to sail them. But my experience is that they have a much lower power to drag ratio.

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I think what makes Bob's boat stand out from all the other small gaff-riggers is that the hull and keel are completely modern. Performance has not be compromised for trailering or for simple construction, or to adhere to some traditional model. 

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1 hour ago, Tanton Y_M said:

I like gaffers. Here is our small "Summer Afternoon " schooner.

20171003_174305_001_resized.jpg

20171003_174431_001_resized.jpg

20180217_161523_resized.jpg

Lovely. The wheel for cockpit space I presume? How does it work?

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Very nice Yves-Marie. Love the sheer.

Could you please send me drawings for that so I can review it in SAILING. I am desperate for interesting new designs to review. I am Euro'ed out.

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It reminds me a bit of Harry Bryan's DAISY. We have one, built by him - a lovely boat. 

 

6.daisy15.JPG

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9 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

Lovely. The wheel for cockpit space I presume? How does it work?

You turn the wheel and the boat turns !  (sorry!!)

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7 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Very nice Yves-Marie. Love the sheer.

Could you please send me drawings for that so I can review it in SAILING. I am desperate for interesting new designs to review. I am Euro'ed out.

Thank you Bob. But your have already reviewed the boat on Sailing Magazine about 20 years ago. So many boats so little time! The following article was on " Messing with Boats".

 

941.jpg

summer afternoon.jpg

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On October 17, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Shu said:

Bob,

No offense intended. I can't agree more that your boats are not cartoonish. 

A cartoon is a caricature, in that it exaggerates defining features.  Your cartoons exaggerate the defining features of small salty yachts that make the little yachts themselves a pleasure to view,  and make their caricatures elicit fond memories, a pleasant sigh, and hopes for future pleasant journeys on similar craft. 

Take that progression backward from cartoon to yacht, by removing the exaggerated-ness of all those pleasing features and you're left with the salty little yacht itself, in all its pleasant perfection. 

That's what I was trying to say, and I probably still haven't said it right - crap.  Just keep doing what you're doing and continue to make beautiful, functional boats and heart-warming cartoons; I love them both.

-Steve

-Steve

We look at that one every day..... :wub:

 

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Sailing Magazine. Issue April 1996. Thanks you very much Bob for reviewing so many of my designs.

Snoops. The Sailor Dog is aboard.

20171018_175231_resized.jpg

  • Like 2

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On 10/4/2017 at 11:49 AM, Alan H said:

No spreaders....  three-point/three-stays rig is pretty simple. With the gaff you actually get some extra area up high, and since this gaff is carbon it doesn't add a lot of weight. About the only downside to this, except that last 3 degrees of pointing ability, is with the shrouds aft, you can't let the boom out as far when going downwind.

I would own one of these, maybe scaled up to maybe 24 feet 'cause it's windier and bouncier on San Francisco Bay than in San Diego, as a nice retirement daysailer/weekend cruiser.  I just sailed around the Bay on a couple of windy days and didn't get too wet in my S2 7.9 but I remember getting soaked in my Cal 20.

Have you seen the boat Will Porter designed when he was staying at Bob's shack?

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I like how modern squaretops can have a gaffy look.  There's a clipper-bowed Macgregor Venture 23 in Newport Beach with a squaretop.  It looks great.

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On 3/2/2018 at 9:31 PM, hobot said:

Have you seen the boat Will Porter designed when he was staying at Bob's shack?

I have not, but now I think I need to!  Might the gentleman assist with this?

Calling hobot, white courtesy telephone, please...

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