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All the boats look fast when foiling. It's really impossible to compare unless they are in the same conditions, same direction etc. Christmas Cup will tell who got it right.

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Wonder if this campaign is a repeat of every other Dean Barker campaign? Lots of on water time, but ultimately not enough design time. Patriot may reach the end of her development phase before the others. Do they have a simulator? It just seems like every chance they get, they’re on the water where the others are content to have a mix of both.

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Why can't they be on the water and the design team be working at the same time?  I'd rather be getting real data than what amounts to a best guess from a simulator. 

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26 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Wouldn’t it be cool if time on the water / the sailors sailing is the competitive difference this time rather than boat speed?

No. That's every other sailboat race in the world.

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51 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Wonder if those decisions are Deans fault too? 
I mean he is to blame for everything else? 

I mean he managed to talk the skipper into sailing on the first day that resulted in a near capsize and an early tow home.

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34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Why can't they be on the water and the design team be working at the same time?  I'd rather be getting real data than what amounts to a best guess from a simulator. 

They can. But while the sailors are on the water, they’re not contributing to that side of it. And a simulator is a little bit more than a “best guess”.

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41 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Wouldn’t it be cool if time on the water / the sailors sailing is the competitive difference this time rather than boat speed?

Plenty of OD regattas in the world to prove that, Kenny. No need to fuck with the AC. ;-)

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

They can. But while the sailors are on the water, they’re not contributing to that side of it. And a simulator is a little bit more than a “best guess”.

It’s a sailboat. 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I mean he managed to talk the skipper into sailing on the first day that resulted in a near capsize and an early tow home.

Oh please. The team made the call who cares who came up with the idea. The man in charge was game for it. They have capsized before without incident.

About spending time on water. I’ll give you a better reason. Simulators and CFD are no good to anyone without hard data to verify the predictions. So, you’ve got to be on the water to make the computer side accurate. This is true with any analysis and simulator software. Real world tests and verification is a must.

Stop trying to create concern and a talking point when you don’t understand how it works.

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

They can. But while the sailors are on the water, they’re not contributing to that side of it. And a simulator is a little bit more than a “best guess”.

Do you work with CFD and simulation software? I work with some and I will tell you. It’s nice to have. But it doesn’t replace real world testing, verification and results. In fact, the software is a best guess not exact science. They’re getting better but not there yet.

Thats why all manufactures that test to failure or other use real world data to backup their analysis.

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58 minutes ago, I14RACER said:

Oh please. The team made the call who cares who came up with the idea. The man in charge was game for it. They have capsized before without incident.

About spending time on water. I’ll give you a better reason. Simulators and CFD are no good to anyone without hard data to verify the predictions. So, you’ve got to be on the water to make the computer side accurate. This is true with any analysis and simulator software. Real world tests and verification is a must.

Stop trying to create concern and a talking point when you don’t understand how it works.

I agree, but as we've seen in past cup cycles, on water time can sometimes be surpassed by a team who have designed a faster boat in the shed.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I agree, but as we've seen in past cup cycles, on water time can sometimes be surpassed by a team who have designed a faster boat in the shed.

No denying the faster boat almost  always wins. But that doesn’t happen without on the water time to support the design cycle and ideas.

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On 10/25/2020 at 4:51 PM, Nauti Buoy said:

 

 

So he has just as much of the blame for loses as Dean... This whole thing started with people claiming Dean's sailing ability is the reason why his teams lose and will be why AM loses, which is absurd. This cup was already won and lost in the design (as TH says), not with the sailors on board. AC35 was clearly won by the boat, and while I'm sure Glenn understands the boat, its the designers who develop nuances of the foils that make them fast, and it was Luna Rossa who developed the autopilot which ETNZ then developed into follow the ball. So thank them for your cup.

1263116629_whiningpom.jpg.23d6332c1375d64ba8934a787135a55a.jpg

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2 hours ago, I14RACER said:

No denying the faster boat almost  always wins. But that doesn’t happen without on the water time to support the design cycle and ideas.

And it's always a tool that needs to be used. And the tool is not simple. If the SF Cup had been best of any number less than 17 (it was that number because that's LE's favorite number, and it was the most races ever), TNZ would have taken the win. And we would all say that TNZ had the faster boat.

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On 10/25/2020 at 4:51 PM, Nauti Buoy said:

 

 

So he has just as much of the blame for loses as Dean... This whole thing started with people claiming Dean's sailing ability is the reason why his teams lose and will be why AM loses, which is absurd. This cup was already won and lost in the design (as TH says), not with the sailors on board. AC35 was clearly won by the boat, and while I'm sure Glenn understands the boat, its the designers who develop nuances of the foils that make them fast, and it was Luna Rossa who developed the autopilot which ETNZ then developed into follow the ball. So thank them for your cup.

Actually, Glen has been involved in a number of victories. Dean only one, when he was handed the helm of a superior boat and sailed it to its narrowest win. Team NZ started winning when he left. 
 

Also, this whole thing started when people were saying that he had a proven record of closing out close regattas. It’s not my claim to prove. 

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Fraternisation on the Gulf this afternoon, an hour or so of chase and gauge.

Both boats looking nimble and pretty smooth, as far as I could tell from a distance. 

2xAC75-1.jpg

2xAC75-2.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Which would you choose and why, black sails or grey?

I assume you mean for optimal UV protection for the crew, right?

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4 minutes ago, Teaky said:

I assume you mean for optimal UV protection for the crew, right?

Performance is the only consideration?

Everyone but AM have black sails, which I assume are carbon fibre moulded sails. Why have AM gone for a different material?

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4 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Why have AM gone for a different material?

Different sail maker. The other 3 teams are all using North.

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12 hours ago, Forourselves said:

They can. But while the sailors are on the water, they’re not contributing to that side of it. And a simulator is a little bit more than a “best guess”.

 

8 hours ago, I14RACER said:

Do you work with CFD and simulation software? I work with some and I will tell you. It’s nice to have. But it doesn’t replace real world testing, verification and results. In fact, the software is a best guess not exact science. They’re getting better but not there yet.

Thats why all manufactures that test to failure or other use real world data to backup their analysis.

Since CFD runs take time, ETNZ couldn't let their sailor just wait between simulator runs so they build them a boat ETNZ B1 to go and play with in the meantime. How kind! After the match, we will probably have few pages of SR and Four about how fast ETNZ were on the simulator and this and that...

Update, the race is going to be won on the water (the liquid one that makes you wet when you go into it. Ever tried CFD shower btw?).

Development curve is pretty long for those boats given how radical the concept was and with 4 months left no team has a boat capable of winning as of today. No time to sit and rest, for any part of any team. They all have to extract the maximum, relentlessly testing on and off the water to be able to refine their design and select the final configuration that is going for the match. Being too far behind now can lose you the cup but being in front won't win it.

Feel privileged to see those development unfolding and impressed by all 4 teams. Honestly hard to pick in between them, they all have pros and cons.

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4 hours ago, I14RACER said:

No denying the faster boat almost  always wins. But that doesn’t happen without on the water time to support the design cycle and ideas.

And thats exactly what I said. But it seems AM has opted for more on water time and less design time. That much is certain.

ETNZ designed Te Aihe using the simulator. She is a 100% CFD produced concept.

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13 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

And thats exactly what I said. But it seems AM has opted for more on water time and less design time. That much is certain.

ETNZ designed Te Aihe using the simulator. She is a 100% CFD produced concept.

Oh FFS, put a sock or something that rhymes with sock in it!!

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36 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

And thats exactly what I said. But it seems AM has opted for more on water time and less design time. That much is certain.

ETNZ designed Te Aihe using the simulator. She is a 100% CFD 

Unless the sailing team are the designers and every minute they are in the water should be time spent as engineers and designing

isnt more likely that while the team are sailing the designers are designing new bits based on the practical feed back. ?

you cannot hope to know the time split between the two processes  to state “that much is certain” 

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7 hours ago, ivansh said:

yt video:

 

That's an epic clip. Awesome shots and editing.

The chase cam when they're gybing is beautifully showing the angle of rudder twist required to make such a turn, and how the foils are dragging through spraying sideways!

Amazing.

 

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On 10/25/2020 at 1:51 PM, Nauti Buoy said:

it was Luna Rossa who developed the autopilot which ETNZ then developed into follow the ball. So thank them for your cup. 

Luna Rossa built Herbie?

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

You mentioned the H word 

But it was Herbie that was came back and bit the hand that created it  ... I thought.

But Luna Rossa built Herbie?  Amazing stuff, I want to know more!

image.png.b0af6678fbf7a3300c24828ac0c896a2.png

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Shirley pod cast with chris draper, pretty clear who built what and where it ended up. 

And they're wrong:lol:

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So a bloke that was sailing against it in testing to prove its effectiveness having spent months developing it is wrong?

this is going to be good.. 

Pray tell oh wise one how you know more about it than Chris Draper? 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And thats exactly what I said. But it seems AM has opted for more on water time and less design time. That much is certain.

ETNZ designed Te Aihe using the simulator. She is a 100% CFD produced concept.

What makes you think that? Where’s the evidence to support less design time?!? Have you looked at their staff listing? They loaded with designers and CFD specialists. What do you think they’re doing while the most is out. Playing games? This is a dumb, biased, not based on any evidence statement.

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7 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Great clip showing the stiffness in the upper control system. 

 

Not entirely sure you were serious but you certainly cannot use that shot to prove that. The whole boat and rig has just gone through huge deceleration. It won't be in anything like the position it is "controlled" to be in. Like in light air downwind on an Oppie (say), forcing the sail through a gybe and pushing it out, backing the sail as you do. Then taking a shot and saying the Oppies control system can invert the whole sail.

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12 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Not entirely sure you were serious but you certainly cannot use that shot to prove that. The whole boat and rig has just gone through huge deceleration. It won't be in anything like the position it is "controlled" to be in. Like in light air downwind on an Oppie (say), forcing the sail through a gybe and pushing it out, backing the sail as you do. Then taking a shot and saying the Oppies control system can invert the whole sail.

Not trying to make as complicated a point as all that - the boat has gone through a pretty dynamic situation and the upper main control is still pinned to the side it looks to be set at. I am using the qualitative word 'stiff' to describe that. I doesn't prove anything, it's just interesting to me to see that to get a feel for what might be up there, and how stiff it might be. Also interesting that that part of the control system wasn't 'dumped' during the event.   

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I've not realised that American Magic have crew crossing in front of the mast. Is that a flight controller? 

From what I remember Paul Goodison is in Wing Trimmer role, so the layout looks as if is

  • Flight Controller / Pilot
  • 2 x 2 Grinder Pedestals
  • Helmsman
  • Wing Trimmer

Is any other team placing flight controllers in front of the grinders?

 

Patriot Layout.png

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33 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

I've not realised that American Magic have crew crossing in front of the mast. Is that a flight controller? 

From what I remember Paul Goodison is in Wing Trimmer role, so the layout looks as if is

  • Flight Controller / Pilot
  • 2 x 2 Grinder Pedestals
  • Helmsman
  • Wing Trimmer

Is any other team placing flight controllers in front of the grinders?

 

Patriot Layout.png

Interesting to think that a flight controller's responses/responsiveness may be different depending on where they are relative to the effective pitch axis of the boat.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

ForHimSelf is just trying to satisfy hisself that ETNZ’s current absence from the water is ‘all good!’  :) 

Why wouldn't it be? They had a months long absence from the water last time and destroyed every other team! And that was as a challenger! They have even more time now, so nothing to worry about here! They're just taking it all in while the challengers show their cards.

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Why wouldn't it be? They had a months long absence from the water last time and destroyed every other team! And that was as a challenger! They have even more time now, so nothing to worry about here! They're just taking it all in while the challengers show their cards.

Whereas 2 months ago you were saying that NZ had an advantage because they were getting lots of sailing hours in and the other teams were losing more time from the delivery. 

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23 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Wonder if this campaign is a repeat of every other Dean Barker campaign? Lots of on water time, but ultimately not enough design time. Patriot may reach the end of her development phase before the others. Do they have a simulator? It just seems like every chance they get, they’re on the water where the others are content to have a mix of both.

This is a classic example why you have no credibility!  EVERYBODY knows AM has a simulator!  

Your statements are inherently false and you do not even take the time to check before you just throw shit at the wall and hope it sticks.

And why would you spend any more time sailing a "simulated boat" when you have your real boat on the water?  They can just have the computer sail the simulator to test any modifications in equipment or procedures.  The simulator has served its purpose for training the sailors on how to sail the boat.  All the crew has to do now is to perfect the maneuvers and fine tune the techniques.

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53 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Why wouldn't it be? They had a months long absence from the water last time and destroyed every other team! And that was as a challenger! They have even more time now, so nothing to worry about here! They're just taking it all in while the challengers show their cards.

Please consult someone before you make such ridiculous statements.  

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It is interesting to see how the bow is shaped.  It has the concave curve right at the tip, but quickly invert into a convex curve with a very pronounced keel.

Here are some screen shots from the AM video:

300647810_ScreenShot2020-10-26at1_39_32PM.png.4715f728c9ff3916fef0f71f00de7423.png

9688625_ScreenShot2020-10-26at1_39_45PM.png.c0f9f983d57f0feddd6c4c7c008d2b36.png

596940859_ScreenShot2020-10-26at1_40_04PM.png.2b3458a6be79546d670922ca6f49aad0.png

735124757_ScreenShot2020-10-26at1_40_13PM.png.c9620914178ec67545c33a12e9c18524.png529786853_ScreenShot2020-10-26at1_40_23PM.png.394874c004525517ea2e8fccc9ae1a00.png

1380369262_ScreenShot2020-10-26at1_40_35PM.png.99fcc276f3d3b15112cacb546426d243.png

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Whereas 2 months ago you were saying that NZ had an advantage because they were getting lots of sailing hours in and the other teams were losing more time from the delivery. 

No I said AM did everything early but didn’t gain any real advantage from it. They built B1 early, sacrificing design time to do so, With Defiant being a bit of a dog, came to Auckland early but ended up launching their B2 the day before INEOS did, negating any advantage they may have gained by coming here early.

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18 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

It is interesting to see how the bow is shaped.  It has the concave curve right at the tip, but quickly invert into a convex curve with a very pronounced keel.

Here are some screen shots from the AM video:

FB1.jpg.fd55685a6e0cf4e6acfac8c9393e9f91.jpg

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4 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Not trying to make as complicated a point as all that - the boat has gone through a pretty dynamic situation and the upper main control is still pinned to the side it looks to be set at.

Except that the foils are set for Port, main on Starboard, jib on Port.

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3 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Interesting to think that a flight controller's responses/responsiveness may be different depending on where they are relative to the effective pitch axis of the boat.

Why would that matter if they have instrumentation to follow?

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4 hours ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

I've not realised that American Magic have crew crossing in front of the mast. Is that a flight controller? 

From what I remember Paul Goodison is in Wing Trimmer role, so the layout looks as if is

  • Flight Controller / Pilot
  • 2 x 2 Grinder Pedestals
  • Helmsman
  • Wing Trimmer

Is any other team placing flight controllers in front of the grinders?

 

Patriot Layout.png

Andrew Campbell is there flight controller. Does it say Campbell on the back of his jacket?

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

No I said AM did everything early but didn’t gain any real advantage from it. They built B1 early, sacrificing design time to do so, With Defiant being a bit of a dog, came to Auckland early but ended up launching their B2 the day before INEOS did, negating any advantage they may have gained by coming here early.

What makes you think they didn’t get any advantage from being out early? I don’t know the races have been held already and a winner declared. Until then just stop declaring who is best or better until you have empirical evidence to back up this ridiculous claim.
I would say that AM looks the smoothest out of everybody. That must come from dumb luck. Not time on the water.

Geez dude just stop!

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

This is a classic example why you have no credibility!  EVERYBODY knows AM has a simulator!  

Your statements are inherently false and you do not even take the time to check before you just throw shit at the wall and hope it sticks.

And why would you spend any more time sailing a "simulated boat" when you have your real boat on the water?  They can just have the computer sail the simulator to test any modifications in equipment or procedures.  The simulator has served its purpose for training the sailors on how to sail the boat.  All the crew has to do now is to perfect the maneuvers and fine tune the techniques.

Fark me there is some amazing hamsterwheeling goes on on these forums .. it makes for interesting, educational, and entertaining reading for sure .... 

 

Keep it up !! 

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2 hours ago, astro said:

Why would that matter if they have instrumentation to follow?

It would matter less in that case, but it might be an interesting experience ignoring one's perceptions as you follow the instrumentation. I'm not at all versed on what the rule allows in any case, so my comment is assuming you are controlling based on human inputs only, in which case the position may change the timing, magnitude and and type of outputs. 

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Interesting to see two helmsman at the wheel during the nose dive.....  It must have taken place during a turn or they were doing something different.208941486_ScreenShot2020-10-26at5_06_49PM.thumb.png.25418bf27e14e7ca0cfc08bc47f23ef7.png 

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13 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Interesting to see two helmsman at the wheel during the nose dive.....  It must have taken place during a turn or they were doing something different.208941486_ScreenShot2020-10-26at5_06_49PM.thumb.png.25418bf27e14e7ca0cfc08bc47f23ef7.png 

I've noticed that too. I think in one of the interviews or articles I read that it was during a gybe. 

I think that ahead of a gybe the Wing Trimmer crosses over - that's Goodison visible in port side trench. After the turn is completed Goodison is helming, while Baker runs across. 

Through all this Flight Controller stays forward, until all foil dropping and raising is completed. That shot of Campbell running across must have been after a turn. 

In that follow cam of a gybe 4 + 1 are visible on port side, with presumably 4 +1 +1 on starboard. 

 

Screenshot_20201026-221538.jpg

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7 hours ago, I14RACER said:

Andrew Campbell is there flight controller. Does it say Campbell on the back of his jacket?

I think so... :rolleyes:

image.png.85ec127b6256312543f34494e4016be0.png

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11 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Please consult someone before you make such ridiculous statements.  

Aww I guess you're one of those "Alternate facts" kind of guys huh?

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On 10/26/2020 at 5:33 PM, Horn Rock said:

Different sail maker. The other 3 teams are all using North.

Quantum don't do carbon?

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5 hours ago, Ncik said:

Quantum don't do carbon?

Those are Doyle Stratis membranes (badged as Quantum) which will be carbon fibres/yarns but with a thin scrim on the outside - i can only assume this light grey colour was chosen on purpose because they definitely have a black option (look at pics of the Maxi72 Bella Mente or Cannonball).

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On 10/27/2020 at 9:58 PM, Neverwas said:

all of you fighting like teenage girls! 

That happens whether its IACCS, 'zillas, cats big & small, open or basically one-design.

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On 10/19/2020 at 8:51 AM, MaxHugen said:

How does the skeg/keel on the underside provide end-plating for the sail topside?

Air can get from high pressure to low under the sails, over the sails, or under the boat....

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