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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Surprisingly good too. Includes the decision-making process for the day’s sail and a comment that off 350 sensors they are pulling ‘a couple thousand’ database columns from off of them. 

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8 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Surprisingly good too. Includes the decision-making process for the day’s sail and a comment that off 350 sensors they are pulling ‘a couple thousand’ database columns from off of them. 

I use a device at work with 6 sensors that generates close to 400 columns of data. It doesn't take long until you have GBs to deal with and it is very straightforward situations that its used in. I cant imagine something as dynamic as these boats. 

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17 hours ago, kenergy said:

I use a device at work with 6 sensors that generates close to 400 columns of data. It doesn't take long until you have GBs to deal with and it is very straightforward situations that its used in. I cant imagine something as dynamic as these boats. 

Yep, that much data must confuse the questions you should be focusing on? 
 

Amazing, some of the AC75 sensor descriptions, though. Even on just a pedestal they measure turn rates, turn accelerations, frictions across the various systems being cranked, and of course sync timing. 

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Anyone have insight into why it takes multiple days to change foils (as Anderson Reggio said in the above podcast)?  Seems like it will limit optimizations a lot.

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12 minutes ago, cinnr said:

Anyone have insight into why it takes multiple days to change foils (as Anderson Reggio said in the above podcast)?  Seems like it will limit optimizations a lot.

There’s a fair amount of control systems for the flaps, assorted fairing, etc. It’s not really a big deal because they have to choose their foils pretty far in advance. They can’t swap based on tomorrow’s forecast. 

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

Heard back, not looking good for today, damn it.

Would be interesting to know how many views your work gets vs most accredited journalists. I suspect you are right up there. Too bad, but thanks for continuing to post what you do.

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

 

AM do a great job with the production quality of their videos. 

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1 hour ago, buckdouger said:

AM do a great job with the production quality of their videos. 

Looked like someone's favorite movie was 300, what with the timing and the gladiator references.

I think that LR has nice style as well.

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3 hours ago, Monkey said:

There’s a fair amount of control systems for the flaps, assorted fairing, etc. It’s not really a big deal because they have to choose their foils pretty far in advance. They can’t swap based on tomorrow’s forecast. 

Maybe not, but could they exchange the foil flaps, foil tips or other foil fairings to change the foils flight/drag characteristics for lighter or heavier winds?  I can't see anything in the rule that would prohibit this, but I may be missing something.  Thoughts anyone....... 

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1 minute ago, Apterix said:

Maybe not, but could they exchange the foil flaps, foil tips or other foil fairings to change the foils flight/drag characteristics for lighter or heavier winds?  I can't see anything in the rule that would prohibit this, but I may be missing something.  Thoughts anyone....... 

I mean exchange within the 20% mass allowance...

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^

31.12 (f) of the AC75 Rule states that the foil, rudder and mast configuration will be included in the measurement certificate....

31.13 (c) states that said certificate becomes invalid if any of those^ are modified according to 5.10

5.10 (b)(i) demands that 80% of the mass remains unmodified

 

so yep - looks possible

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AM has got to be up to something..  they haven't opened the doors since they returned from the first day of pre-start testing and the lights have been every night.

Would suspect that AM has some planned modifications just like Tony Dexter said was in store for the UK Rita2.  One now for the xmas cup and the other for the challenger series, both are planed to be too later for others to copy.

Patriot just completed some control system updates last week, came out for the one pre-start match up with NZ and then went back in for most likely more visible updates.

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16 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

AM has got to be up to something..  they haven't opened the doors since they returned from the first day of pre-start testing and the lights have been every night.

Would suspect that AM has some planned modifications just like Tony Dexter said was in store for the UK Rita2.  One now for the xmas cup and the other for the challenger series, both are planed to be too later for others to copy.

Patriot just completed some control system updates last week, came out for the one pre-start match up with NZ and then went back in for most likely more visible updates.

The controllers must be quite an effort.  ETNZ said they were up to 8-9 iteration of controllers - I think he was referring the the mainsail controller.   Everything on these boats is measured in tenths, if not hundredths of degrees or whatever - main angles/cambers/twist/mast bend... etc etc etc.

But they have to be able to respond in milliseconds to sudden large changes as well, for gusts, tacks/gybes, mark rounding and so on. Designing those controllers would be a challenge.

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

AM has got to be up to something..  they haven't opened the doors since they returned from the first day of pre-start testing and the lights have been every night.

Would suspect that AM has some planned modifications just like Tony Dexter said was in store for the UK Rita2.  One now for the xmas cup and the other for the challenger series, both are planed to be too later for others to copy.

Patriot just completed some control system updates last week, came out for the one pre-start match up with NZ and then went back in for most likely more visible updates.

I agree you don’t go into your shed and not practice for fun. I’m suspecting some changes are going to be happening

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No doubt they also had their schedules baked in a long time ago and these practice sessions are a late arrival. At this stage of the game no team is going to sacrifice their plans for some practice races. If you were otherwise going to be out on the water then fine, but if was meant to be in the shed that's where it should be.

I don't think we can read too much into it.

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2 hours ago, mako23 said:

I agree you don’t go into your shed and not practice for fun. I’m suspecting some changes are going to be happening

I hope you are right here’s my take all 3 contenders got out on the same track as Te Rehutai encountered something pretty freaky fast went back to shed and realistically are all clutching at straws as to where to go next.

It’s a design and technology race have a close look at all the syndicates offerings it’s night and day the opposition have nothing in response to those tricky kiwis.

Rock on Thursday.

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30 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

I hope you are right here’s my take all 3 contenders got out on the same track as Te Rehutai encountered something pretty freaky fast went back to shed and realistically are all clutching at straws as to where to go next.

It’s a design and technology race have a close look at all the syndicates offerings it’s night and day the opposition have nothing in response to those tricky kiwis.

Rock on Thursday.

They are unlikely to have taken shock at NZ and then simulated the alternatives, designed and developed to the point they area ready to modify. I agree with others that these were preplanned and either someone stuck the practise races in late, or they just didn't want to play anyway

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Realistically, none of the challengers want to show the defender anything.  To say that they were scared by the Kiwi performance is somewhat laughable.  Why would you show your hand to the defender this early in the game?

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The challengers will have development left to do that will significantly aid performance.

 

But so will ETNZ.

 

My cat reckons ETNZ are ahead now and have a big bag of tricks that will outrun the challengers until March.

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42 minutes ago, sailman said:

Realistically, none of the challengers want to show the defender anything.  To say that they were scared by the Kiwi performance is somewhat laughable.  Why would you show your hand to the defender this early in the game?

Why then did they match up at all?

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39 minutes ago, sailman said:

Realistically, none of the challengers want to show the defender anything.  To say that they were scared by the Kiwi performance is somewhat laughable.  Why would you show your hand to the defender this early in the game?

You may not, but if you've had your pants pulled down, you may not have a choice. My guess is any upgrades they had scheduled for after the Christmas Cup have been brought forward as the challengers need some more firepower.

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

You may not, but if you've had your pants pulled down, you may not have a choice. My guess is any upgrades they had scheduled for after the Christmas Cup have been brought forward as the challengers need some more firepower.

Why on earth would they do that. Even assuming they think NZ is faster, would that be a reason to now develop in way that is sub optimal?

They will stick to their plans which may or may not have upgrades now or after the regatta or both.

 

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On 12/7/2020 at 7:55 AM, terrafirma said:

I wouldn't be surprised if AM surprised the challengers. She's been on the water the longest, always looks stable and seems to tack and gybe well. Of the challengers they are the least in your face going about their business quietly. Whilst her hull doesn't appear as extreme as the others it still looks like a very fast boat. Only 10 days now until we see some racing. Who knows what the future holds?

I dont think any of the teams is in your face.  It is media driven not team driven.  If anything we know very little about the boats and teams at the moment. The media seem to focus on 2 teams more than the others but even that might be an illusion created by my own bias and interest.

I do think they have the best looking boat. For some reason it looks like a Spitfire.  Nice curves. The rest look like ME109s. Sort of more edges.

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11 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

The controllers must be quite an effort.  ETNZ said they were up to 8-9 iteration of controllers - I think he was referring the the mainsail controller.   Everything on these boats is measured in tenths, if not hundredths of degrees or whatever - main angles/cambers/twist/mast bend... etc etc etc.

But they have to be able to respond in milliseconds to sudden large changes as well, for gusts, tacks/gybes, mark rounding and so on. Designing those controllers would be a challenge.

The interview with the AM flight controller said they were on the 6th or 7th iteration of his controller already.  Constant improvements to make it better and more intuitive. 

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4 hours ago, DayTripper said:

Why then did they match up at all?

Well they did not. The Prada Kiwi thing amounted to nothing. Both had different sails up for a start. Was that a bad sail call? Was it done on purpose?  Were Prada trying something else? We just don't know.  There is a good interview on Utube where the guy basically said they will operate at 90% until the proper race starts for the Prada cup. They will then bring in mods that are put on so as to give the other teams little chance to develop and copy.  He said even the Christmas races will give you a false incite into how the teams are going.  

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6 hours ago, Priscilla said:

I hope you are right here’s my take all 3 contenders got out on the same track as Te Rehutai encountered something pretty freaky fast went back to shed and realistically are all clutching at straws as to where to go next.

It’s a design and technology race have a close look at all the syndicates offerings it’s night and day the opposition have nothing in response to those tricky kiwis.

Rock on Thursday.

Of course you would think they are all cowering in fear of the great kiwis.  
 

Of all the teams, it is the kiwis that are the probably the most worried because of the overhead photos that reveled parts of their lower sail control and the cockpits.  They are the team that has done the most work so far on controlling the separation of the bottom of the twin sails.  Now, every other team knows exactly how and what they are doing. I think they pulled that rabbit out of the hat a little too early.

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On 12/7/2020 at 7:55 AM, terrafirma said:

I wouldn't be surprised if AM surprised the challengers. She's been on the water the longest, always looks stable and seems to tack and gybe well. Of the challengers they are the least in your face going about their business quietly. Whilst her hull doesn't appear as extreme as the others it still looks like a very fast boat. Only 10 days now until we see some racing. Who knows what the future holds?

We wont learn anything until the Prada cup to be honest.

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11 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

The controllers must be quite an effort.  ETNZ said they were up to 8-9 iteration of controllers - I think he was referring the the mainsail controller.   Everything on these boats is measured in tenths, if not hundredths of degrees or whatever - main angles/cambers/twist/mast bend... etc etc etc.

But they have to be able to respond in milliseconds to sudden large changes as well, for gusts, tacks/gybes, mark rounding and so on. Designing those controllers would be a challenge.

Pretty sure if they're down to tenth's, even hundredths of degrees the designers have gone fuck it and use minutes of angle. Much more practical when measuring tiny angles.

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American Magic don’t look very stable in a straight line.  Maybe like Oracle of 2013?  A bitch to sail but once dialed in - should scream.

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9 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

Pretty sure if they're down to tenth's, even hundredths of degrees the designers have gone fuck it and use minutes of angle. Much more practical when measuring tiny angles.

Or radians

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6 hours ago, Priscilla said:

I hope you are right here’s my take all 3 contenders got out on the same track as Te Rehutai encountered something pretty freaky fast went back to shed and realistically are all clutching at straws as to where to go next.

It’s a design and technology race have a close look at all the syndicates offerings it’s night and day the opposition have nothing in response to those tricky kiwis.

Rock on Thursday.

I have heard the other 3 are booked to fly home and chain saw their boats. Or it could be that one of the major advantages the defenders have is they can not give Team Middle East practice by racing them.  These practice races are not needed by the challengers so much. We could just admit that we still don't know how the boats relate to each other and leave our swagger sticks until the proper race.

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5 hours ago, Nutta said:

The challengers will have development left to do that will significantly aid performance.

 

But so will ETNZ.

 

My cat reckons ETNZ are ahead now and have a big bag of tricks that will outrun the challengers until March.

Are you from New Zealand per chance?

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5 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

You may not, but if you've had your pants pulled down, you may not have a choice. My guess is any upgrades they had scheduled for after the Christmas Cup have been brought forward as the challengers need some more firepower.

How come you and a few other Kiwis know things about how the boats stack up when the rest of us still dont have a clue?  It is nice to see you support your team but maybe  big noting them with out any clear evidence just makes posts like these risible. What incites into The All Black England game in the World Cup did you have?

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7 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

You may not, but if you've had your pants pulled down, you may not have a choice. My guess is any upgrades they had scheduled for after the Christmas Cup have been brought forward as the challengers need some more firepower.

This.

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1 hour ago, dullers said:
7 hours ago, Nutta said:

The challengers will have development left to do that will significantly aid performance.

 

But so will ETNZ.

 

My cat reckons ETNZ are ahead now and have a big bag of tricks that will outrun the challengers until March.

Are you from New Zealand per chance?

So, ETNZ have run out of innovation? I wouldn't put your money on that one.

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

So, ETNZ have run out of innovation? I wouldn't put your money on that one.

I suspect there is a lot of innovation on each boat. All the countries involved have backgrounds of being innovative. My guess is it will come down more to which paths they went down to seek the edge. I think all teams gamble and can get it wrong and masts fall down or even boats sink or it just ends up not giving the speed etc that they wanted. It is risky technology .

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11 minutes ago, dullers said:

I suspect there is a lot of innovation on each boat. All the countries involved have backgrounds of being innovative. My guess is it will come down more to which paths they went down to seek the edge. I think all teams gamble and can get it wrong and masts fall down or even boats sink or it just ends up not giving the speed etc that they wanted. It is risky technology .

Well, TNZ has had its share of blue buckets, falling sticks, and the odd pitchpole. Can't disagree with you there.

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23 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

So, ETNZ have run out of innovation? I wouldn't put your money on that one.

Every team has plenty of room for innovation.  We may be getting to the point where the next series are refinements and not major performance jumps.  It is possible that smaller performance refinements can be nullified by better crew work by your opponents, it is the larger performance gains that leave your opponents in you wake.

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34 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Every team has plenty of room for innovation.  We may be getting to the point where the next series are refinements and not major performance jumps.  It is possible that smaller performance refinements can be nullified by better crew work by your opponents, it is the larger performance gains that leave your opponents in you wake.

I liken the innovation to a curve that flattens out at the top. There’s the statistical norm called “rate of diminishing return”. Where the advancements made in whatever tech or device is quick at first with huge gains and then as the large gains have been realized the amount of improvement slows with each innovation to the point where there is no real gain from the investment in design.

I think NZL made huge gains with B2 and no doubt there is probably some left. But I doubt it is anywhere near the gains made with B2. That leaves room for the other teams to catch before the Cup races. Time will tell who planned their big moves at the right time.

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25 minutes ago, I14RACER said:

I liken the innovation to a curve that flattens out at the top. There’s the statistical norm called “rate of diminishing return”. Where the advancements made in whatever tech or device is quick at first with huge gains and then as the large gains have been realized the amount of improvement slows with each innovation to the point where there is no real gain from the investment in design.

I think NZL made huge gains with B2 and no doubt there is probably some left. But I doubt it is anywhere near the gains made with B2. That leaves room for the other teams to catch before the Cup races. Time will tell who planned their big moves at the right time.

While modifications and 'planned refinements' are obviously critical you still need to sail it and get it around the track. Therefore time on the water with said mods and refinements is just as important.

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8 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Why on earth would they do that. Even assuming they think NZ is faster, would that be a reason to now develop in way that is sub optimal?

They will stick to their plans which may or may not have upgrades now or after the regatta or both.

 

The difference to being slower and a lot slower than the defender is probably the answer. Given the lights are on in their sheds 24/7 after their first real contact with the Defender is telling. You bring your upgrades forward so you create time to bring the other upgrades forward, which allows time for more unscheduled upgrades because you know you're going to need them.

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5 hours ago, dullers said:

How come you and a few other Kiwis know things about how the boats stack up when the rest of us still dont have a clue?  It is nice to see you support your team but maybe  big noting them with out any clear evidence just makes posts like these risible. What incites into The All Black England game in the World Cup did you have?

Sometimes it's about who you know and who you work for...

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33 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Sometimes it's about who you know and who you work for...

I nearly replied.......

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6 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, ETNZ have run out of innovation? I wouldn't put your money on that one.

Pretty sure none of them have.

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17 hours ago, dullers said:

Are you from New Zealand per chance?

Yup. Blatant bias is as good a method for picking relative speeds of the teams as anything else just now...

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Not quite dry, but it looks like AM pulled off a 360 not much worse than the LR one (video just above the previous post)

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9 minutes ago, P Flados said:

Not quite dry, but it looks like AM pulled off a 360 not much worse than the LR one (video just above the previous post)

Be interested to see how much use they make of 360s in the starts.

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1 hour ago, fish7yu said:

 

That video is a superb production. Thank you so much for all the effort, appreciated! 

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1 hour ago, P Flados said:

Not quite dry, but it looks like AM pulled off a 360 not much worse than the LR one (video just above the previous post)

yes, LR was all at once and AM did it in two steps 

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^^^ Those rounded hull sections suggests she'll roll more in displacement mode, and have less RM than TR with her flat sections and prominent edges astern.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

^^^ Those rounded hull sections suggests she'll roll more in displacement mode, and have less RM than TR with her flat sections and prominent edges astern.

Concur.  We have all seen TR's special dance to get foiling in low winds: flat, then heeled, then flat again but just riding the guppy belly, then liftoff.  Doesn't look like Patriots hull shape gives it a shot in hell at pulling that off.  Hopefully the races aren't at the lower wind limits.

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10 minutes ago, WindySurfer said:

Concur.  We have all seen TR's special dance to get foiling in low winds: flat, then heeled, then flat again but just riding the guppy belly, then liftoff.  Doesn't look like Patriots hull shape gives it a shot in hell at pulling that off.  Hopefully the races aren't at the lower wind limits.

That's a worry but not as bad if it guarantees some wins in the higher end range. Pushing the boat into a corner is not what TR will be doing. We know so far TR is fast in the lighter conditions. 

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

^^^ Those rounded hull sections suggests she'll roll more in displacement mode, and have less RM than TR with her flat sections and prominent edges astern.

I don't agree, the rounded hull sections only affect hull stability when the boat is stationary, as soon as it moves the leeward foil gives extra stability as the fulcrum moves out towards the leeward foil making the form shape irrelevant to stability.

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48 minutes ago, WindySurfer said:

Hopefully the races aren't at the lower wind limits.

The AC will be. 

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11 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't agree, the rounded hull sections only affect hull stability when the boat is stationary, as soon as it moves the leeward foil gives extra stability as the fulcrum moves out towards the leeward foil making the form shape irrelevant to stability.

I think the point he's making is the boats ability to get up on the foils in comparison to ETNZ. So the question was with regards to AM's rounded hull section vs TR flat in the process of getting up on the foils, not once the boat is foiling

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7 hours ago, fish7yu said:

 

To my eye the Kiwis look considerably faster in these conditions. 

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3 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I think the point he's making is the boats ability to get up on the foils in comparison to ETNZ. So the question was with regards to AM's rounded hull section vs TR flat in the process of getting up on the foils, not once the boat is foiling

He referred to the RM and that is what I responded to, I agree that the rounded sections lose the wetted surface more quickly and that helps the hull to get flying,

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

To my eye the Kiwis look considerably faster in these conditions. 

You must have farking good eyes.

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7 hours ago, P Flados said:

Not quite dry, but it looks like AM pulled off a 360 not much worse than the LR one (video just above the previous post)

There was about 17 seconds between the beginnings of each board lift (09:01....).

15 seconds was the system recharge time mentioned when the FCS was a working prototype. I wonder if they can do any better than that by now through updates or mods - or if that is a hard limit?

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4 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't agree, the rounded hull sections only affect hull stability when the boat is stationary, as soon as it moves the leeward foil gives extra stability as the fulcrum moves out towards the leeward foil making the form shape irrelevant to stability.

It seems for the first few knots the pivot point is still under the hull, with the rocking motion we've seen from TR.

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

^^^ Those rounded hull sections suggests she'll roll more in displacement mode, and have less RM than TR with her flat sections and prominent edges astern.

This is humorous considering how sticky everyone said the Defiant hull was compared to the NZ B1 that was shaped like a fishing bobber.  Don’t be deceived by some of those shots, Patriot has a very wide hull at the stern.  You can see from lift off videos that AM and NZ B2’s have different approaches to take off.  NZ heels slightly to simulate a two hulled cat and air is forced under the hull  and it lifts out almost horizontally.  AM lifts out bow first with very little heel.  The AM hull has a pronounced rocker from front to back (the guppy like chest) while NZ has what could be described as rails or skis that it rides on and then lifts up.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

It seems for the first few knots the pivot point is still under the hull, with the rocking motion we've seen from TR.

If the boat is so slow that the leeward foil is not helping the wind is so low that foiling is not going to happen, the round shape will still be better in displacement mode.  I think INEOS made a grave mistake with their box shaped skeg.

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8 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I think INEOS made a grave mistake with their box shaped skeg.

Agree. They look the most sticky in the light stuff.

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On 12/13/2020 at 11:06 PM, sailman said:

Realistically, none of the challengers want to show the defender anything.  To say that they were scared by the Kiwi performance is somewhat laughable.  Why would you show your hand to the defender this early in the game?

Good on AM beating ETNZ in a practice race. I see the media tried to make excuses. It’s good that ETNZ were faster than anyone myth has been broken. Good wake up call to ETNZ that they need to keep developing and improving, 

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

Good wake up call to ETNZ that they need to keep developing and improving, 

Somehow I think they never lose sight of that reality since san fran. 

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

 

The LR and ETNZ sail plans look much more evenly matched in this race that the one earlier in the week.  A reason for more even match up perhaps?

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14 hours ago, terrafirma said:

To my eye the Kiwis look considerably faster in these conditions. 

Were those eyes made in NZ?

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5 minutes ago, Apterix said:

The LR and ETNZ sail plans look much more evenly matched in this race that the one earlier in the week.  A reason for more even match up perhaps?

Also, what do you reckon the holes/see through patches in luff of LR and  ETNZ jibs are for?   There are 3 on the LR jib and 1 on the ETNZ jib.  

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5 minutes ago, Apterix said:

Also, what do you reckon the holes/see through patches in luff of LR and  ETNZ jibs are for?   There are 3 on the LR jib and 1 on the ETNZ jib.  

tell tale windows. 

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1 hour ago, MrBump said:

After listening to the press conference this morning, it reaffirms that T Hutch is a class Act.

Just curious, but what did he say?

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14 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Just curious, but what did he say?

Not much said at the conference in terms of interesting information but he just comes across as a genuine guy with immense knowledge, no arrogance or attitude, just a nice likable guy. Even though he's here trying to take our cup from us you cant help but like the guy.   

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