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Yep, this is the time when the hard questions have to be asked. Like I said a few weeks back, with American Magic, its one thing to turn up before everyone else and look good with no one else around, but once the real teams turn up and start racing, thats where average teams are exposed.

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You'd think twice about flying on an Airbus... 8)

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1 hour ago, Enzedel92 said:

THEY NEED TO CARVE PATRIOTS BOTTOM ON MONDAY.  AWFUL STICKY AKWARD ASS DROPPING HULL.

you mean make it sort of boatshaped and not like a flat topped sperm cell ???

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3 hours ago, FINS said:

Barker has to go

 

I agreed with getting rid of Deano from ETNZ, just didn't agree with how it was handled.

He is a good sailor, but not in the same league as the rest of these guys IMO.

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3 hours ago, FINS said:

Barker has to go

 

Terry Hutchison is the tactician and skipper, could be a problem there?

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Deano is 48 years old, no one is in their prime at this age when it comes to sport. Terry Hutchison is 52 years old as well. Both of  them were slow in their tactics. In a country of over 300 million theirs got to better than these guys. 

Fire them both 

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Put Goody on the wheel and get Terry looking for breeze, Ineos full of decent chat as is Prada whilst on AM it’s all a deathly hush.

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58 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I agreed with getting rid of Deano from ETNZ, just didn't agree with how it was handled.

He is a good sailor, but not in the same league as the rest of these guys IMO.

Good sailors win... .   The AC is out of Barker's league ... He just a glorified club sailor with a " lame" state of mind.

 

Jimmy and Ben have that "Steely eyed" aggression back with ability to go for the jugular.

 

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56 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Deano is 48 years old, no one is in their prime at this age when it comes to sport. Terry Hutchison is 52 years old as well. Both of  them were slow in their tactics. In a country of over 300 million theirs got to better than these guys. 

Fire them both 

+1...  AM is a old man junket!...   

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4 minutes ago, Baconator said:

Good sailors win... .   The AC is out of Barker's league ... He just a glorified club sailor with a " lame" state of mind.

 

Jimmy and Ben have that "Steely eyed" aggression back with ability to go for the jugular.

 

Calling him a glorified club sailor is a bit ridiculous really.

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4 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Calling him a glorified club sailor is a bit ridiculous really.

True...   A Club sailor.

Glorified club sailors don't make dumb pre start mistakes like today

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Everybody clamoring for a massive change is a fucking idiot.  The AC is a designers challenge, the players have very little to do with it.

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6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Everybody clamoring for a massive change is a fucking idiot.  The AC is a designers challenge, the players have very little to do with it.

Didn’t ineos do that ?

fucken idiots have won three races ! 

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In these conditions the helm can only really sail the bit of water they are on top of and the stretch immediately in front. They cannot get their head up and connect the.dots, they need someone else doing that....that's Terry's job. .......but Terry isn't talking. Psychologically they need a change. Today was a lottery so kind of irrelevant, but the bigger picture is Terry needs to lead, with grit, through good and bad. Dean has his hands full. Boat also.needs to get a ligjt wind mode......somehow.

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55 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Everybody clamoring for a massive change is a fucking idiot.  The AC is a designers challenge, the players have very little to do with it.

Nothing can be further from the truth. With boats traveling nearly 4 times the wind speed putting your boat in one more knot of breeze than the opposition equates to an extra 4 knots of speed. 
In the old days a slower boat playing the shifts might reach parity with a faster boat. Today playing the shifts amounts to a large advantage of speed even if your boat is of an inferior design. 

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15 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

In these conditions the helm can only really sail the bit of water they are on top of and the stretch immediately in front. They cannot get their head up and connect the.dots, they need someone else doing that....that's Terry's job. .......but Terry isn't talking. Psychologically they need a change. Today was a lottery so kind of irrelevant, but the bigger picture is Terry needs to lead, with grit, through good and bad. Dean has his hands full. Boat also.needs to get a ligjt wind mode......somehow.

Similarly, I've been wondering about team dynamics... recent on-course decisions just don't seem to be up to the standard they displayed in the ACWS.

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7 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

I didn't say the UK was slower over all.  The charts show that UK has constantly stronger winds and AM was able to go faster on a normalized wind speed.  UK did have a greater over all boat speed in up and down wind legs (but if AM had the same winds it would have been faster).

My mistake, apologies that I misread it reading when tired on phone. However whilst I agree UKs decision that keep the tactician free now looks like genius, I'd still be wary of your evaluation because I do think UKs anemometer reads higher even when they are next to each other

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12 hours ago, dorox said:

Don't jump to conclusions from this data: TWS and TWD are very unreliable, especially from INEOS. Their instruments add approx +1 kn to the wind reading seen on the buoys over the VirtualEye. Wind direction can be misleading, too.

By the way, does anyone have a photo of the wind instruments mounted on a buoy?

m4100_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_1

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9 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

The team dynamics when they get down are bad.

Somebody on the boat has to keep the crew in the race. One of Hutch or Deano has to be the guy, preferably both.

I doubt there's anybody on the shore who can jump in and provide that, so one of those two is going to have to step up.

Indeed, the skipper should fight for the team morale.

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Barker is and has been a great sailor. He's proven it in the AC, on the World Match Racing Tour, TP52s, X40s, etc. etc.

Where I don't think he's great is as a skipper on race day. Someone other than Dean needs to be in charge of tactics and leading the team so Dean can just drive. He's got too much on his plate and the team is making poor tactical decisions and lacking leadership.

The the start of race 2 yesterday was a great example. Being early for the start is not good, but penalties are not really that punitive in this regatta...panicking trying to slow down and dropping the boat off the foils to try and avoid a 50m penalty just doesn't show a team that's thinking about the big picture at all times.

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4 hours ago, Rainier said:

Everybody clamoring for a massive change is a fucking idiot.  The AC is a designers challenge, the players have very little to do with it.

It isn’t the designers that keep mucking up the starts...

 

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5 hours ago, jaysper said:

Calling him a glorified club sailor is a bit ridiculous really.

More than a bit, completely ridiculous.

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4 hours ago, Chris UK said:

In these conditions the helm can only really sail the bit of water they are on top of and the stretch immediately in front. They cannot get their head up and connect the.dots, they need someone else doing that....that's Terry's job. .......but Terry isn't talking. Psychologically they need a change. Today was a lottery so kind of irrelevant, but the bigger picture is Terry needs to lead, with grit, through good and bad. Dean has his hands full. Boat also.needs to get a ligjt wind mode......somehow.

4 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Similarly, I've been wondering about team dynamics... recent on-course decisions just don't seem to be up to the standard they displayed in the ACWS.

Perhaps it's just the feed (I doubt it) but the difference in the on-board chatter and communication that you hear on INEOS and LuuuuuuuuunaRossaPradaPirelli on the one hand, compared to AM on the other, is striking, particularly in yesterday's races. AM sounded like a funeral. They sounded lost and frustrated that conditions were challenging whereas the other teams worked the problem in front of them through communication and teamwork. I'm not sure I've heard TH speak once.*  Right now, the crew looks to be the weakest part of this boat.
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*In fairness to him, I have no idea what he sounds like when not in front of a microphone.

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8 minutes ago, porthos said:

Perhaps it's just the feed (I doubt it) but the difference in the on-board chatter and communication that you hear on INEOS and LuuuuuuuuunaRossaPradaPirelli on the one hand, compared to AM on the other, is striking, particularly in yesterday's races. AM sounded like a funeral. They sounded lost and frustrated that conditions were challenging whereas the other teams worked the problem in front of them through communication and teamwork. I'm not sure I've heard TH speak once.*  Right now, the crew looks to be the weakest part of this boat.
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*In fairness to him, I have no idea what he sounds like when not in front of a microphone.

Not that I have a clew... but it's almost as though DB and TH have had a spat...

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9 hours ago, Nutta said:

You'd think twice about flying on an Airbus... 8)

They're alright once they get off the ground.

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5 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Barker is and has been a great sailor. He's proven it in the AC, on the World Match Racing Tour, TP52s, X40s, etc. etc.

Where I don't think he's great is as a skipper on race day. Someone other than Dean needs to be in charge of tactics and leading the team so Dean can just drive. He's got too much on his plate and the team is making poor tactical decisions and lacking leadership.

The the start of race 2 yesterday was a great example. Being early for the start is not good, but penalties are not really that punitive in this regatta...panicking trying to slow down and dropping the boat off the foils to try and avoid a 50m penalty just doesn't show a team that's thinking about the big picture at all times.

The boat has been designed and built and the helm has been picked.

Both are long term decisions that are very hard to change at short notice.   The boat seems fast. Dean is a great sailor.......but is he an extraordinary sailor? When AM were putting together their team, there was some criticism that AM team seemed slightly "old school" based on a group that had been sailing TP52s together and long term AC experience extending back to before foiling.

ETNZ has always been a team where the talent have come from high speed dinghy , cat and foiling moth background. Burling has that 6th sense at high speed.

Ineos has an extraordinary talented team of BA and GS. I cannot put my finger on it precisely but you sense that if they have a competitive boat, the talent is there.

Luna Rossa : I confess I dont really understand the two helm structure. Not so much because of alternating drivers, but because alternately doing big picture tactics.

AM has made its bed and difficult to change. Dean is truly great sailor....but as a USA supporter I kind of had hoped they had experimented with some raw talent along the way. Dean reminds me of Bottas.Put him in the right car and he has all the global talent to win races but he is not Lewis. What AM needed was Verstappen, combining the right boat with fearsome talent.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Dean reminds me of Bottas. Put him in the right car and he has all the global talent to win races but he is not Lewis. What AM needed was Verstappen, combining the right boat with fearsome talent.

 

 

 

Well written , I was thinking something similar but in the end this is where my thoughts went. Russel may be the real deal. 

AB3CA416-F79A-49E2-AD61-90CF63075EDB.jpeg

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I also think the combination of team (tactician, trim and flight , helm) and design team is all so critical that its hard to just pick on the helm. It is too early to draw any conclusions but boat seems competitive and team seems to work competently (bottas) .  After ACWS they looked like they had the ingredients to be the challenger. The landscape has changed because suddenly Ineos may have a competitive boat.

I think that AM can chalk one up tonight. Lets hope so.

It is so early. 

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Interesting bet selection at a French bookie:

image.png.09f42d9b37fb6eecd92848d8e8b4a587.png

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

Not that I have a clew... but it's almost as though DB and TH have had a spat...

Maybe TH is withholding sex?

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Maybe TH is withholding sex?

We have all been there. (As the victim) Is it possible for a man to withhold sex?

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

Interesting bet selection at a French bookie:

image.png.09f42d9b37fb6eecd92848d8e8b4a587.png

:huh:  Oracle Team USA? That is funny. Not much risk of paying out for that one.

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Just now, IPLore said:

Oracle Team USA? That is funny. Not much risk of paying out for that one.

They’ve about as much chance as NYYC on today’s showing :)

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It’s early days to make a call on the AM program - but I think we are seeing proof that the AC is still about the talent of the sailors.  Foiling is the future of high performance sailing globally.  Foiling is different than keel boat sailing - the feel and instincts are different.  Being a great keel boat sailor or great boxer doesn’t help.   The Kiwi program is lead by 3 of the best foiling sailors in the world.  And its not just on the water - it makes a huge difference to the design team to get the feedback from great foiling sailors.   The leaders of the AM program hate foiling - as they have stated.  They have built an afterguard built for keel boat racing.  So not surprising to see them in displacement mode.

Hope they turn it around.

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Just now, sosoomii said:

They’ve about as much chance as NYYC on today’s showing :)

and yet 3 weeks ago, AM had the best score among the challengers with 4 and 2 and the only team that beat ETNZ in a race.

Early stages in a rapidly evolving boat.

AM has had 3 races and has at least 9 more races to go before they can get eliminated . 

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Interesting bet selection at a French bookie:

image.png.09f42d9b37fb6eecd92848d8e8b4a587.png

I’m not so familiar with decimal odds, but does that mean you can place equal money on all the challengers (US, UK and Italy) and provided NZ don’t win you’ll still make a profit?

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So far we have seen a total of 4 short races in a very difficult course area.  One with huge down speed pot holes. 

I think it is kind of early to be throwing dirt on the coffin.

On the other hand, it seems that American Magic have made a design choice that focuses on smaller and flatter sails which are more efficient and faster once they are foiling, but have large down speed risks.  

They seem to always have the smaller jib set, and have pushed the area of the mainsail to the minimum.  Even yesterday their main seemed to have a smaller head than Prada or Ineos.  They also do not seem to push as much camber into the main. I assume this is by intent.  They also had the smallest foils on the water yesterday.  

Ineos only made the time limit by 2 minutes yesterday, so the judgement that speed in those conditions doesn’t matter because the race cannot be finished in the time limit, is not far wrong.  If the course hadn’t been shortened in both races, neither would have counted.  So one really could believe that these two losses were flukes sailed at the absolute minimum race-able conditions.  If you were going to risk something, being fast at the minimum condition might be one you would take.

SHC  

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4 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

So far we have seen a total of 4 short races in a very difficult course area.  One with huge down speed pot holes. 

I think it is kind of early to be throwing dirt on the coffin.

On the other hand, it seems that American Magic have made a design choice that focuses on smaller and flatter sails which are more efficient and faster once they are foiling, but have large down speed risks.  

They seem to always have the smaller jib set, and have pushed the area of the mainsail to the minimum.  Even yesterday their main seemed to have a smaller head than Prada or Ineos.  They also do not seem to push as much camber into the main. I assume this is by intent.  They also had the smallest foils on the water yesterday.  

Ineos only made the time limit by 2 minutes yesterday, so the judgement that speed in those conditions doesn’t matter because the race cannot be finished in the time limit, is not far wrong.  If the course hadn’t been shortened in both races, neither would have counted.  So one really could believe that these two losses were flukes sailed at the absolute minimum race-able conditions.  If you were going to risk something, being fast at the minimum condition might be one you would take.

SHC  

Problem was, they got beaten yesterday in the medium range too.

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After turning the wrong way, into a huge hole at two of 3 weather gates.....

3 shitty short races only confirm what you have already concluded.

SHC

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I think the boat is good - or at least, the hull, foils and sails certainly look the part.  Not convinced about the helm, tactician or weather support though.  If you give the opposition a head start in every race then you gonna struggle.  

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I'd feel better about AM if they were owning their mistakes. 

Instead the boat goes quiet when things aren't going their way. The other boats are great examples of how to communicate in a race. AM just isn't. 

In the media they lay the blame on things they have no control over - the wind, course, etc, instead of taking ownership of the things they are screwing up. 

It doesn't mean they won't turn it around, but they aren't in a good place right now. 

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55 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I think the boat is good - or at least, the hull, foils and sails certainly look the part.  Not convinced about the helm, tactician or weather support though.  If you give the opposition a head start in every race then you gonna struggle.  

Making it pretty hard when they get the tactician to grind, it’s hard to look around analyse and make great calls when you spend a lot of the race looking into the bottom of the boat and trying to breath

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

We have all been there. (As the victim) Is it possible for a man to withhold sex?

Not in my experience. 

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5 hours ago, marlowe said:

They're alright once they get off the ground.

It's the unscheduled and unwanted returns to the surface that are problematic...

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8 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Not in my experience. 

I tried it once but after 3 minutes i was broken.

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15 minutes ago, Nutta said:

It's the unscheduled and unwanted returns to the surface that are problematic...

That's Boeing you're thinking of.

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1 hour ago, Rors said:

Making it pretty hard when they get the tactician to grind, it’s hard to look around analyse and make great calls when you spend a lot of the race looking into the bottom of the boat and trying to breath

Totally. Discussing this with mates earlier and when you compare the chat between Giles and Ben to the zero chat on AM it is pretty telling. LR in a better place too.

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3 minutes ago, crashtack said:

So they ran two different foils yesterday, right? Any clues as to why?

Same as during the practise runs, one theory is that anyone running two foils is still testing which one is better, (remember the worst that can happen until the finals is you have to race twice, the winning round robin boat is in the finals, the other two head to the semi final first).

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5 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

So far we have seen a total of 4 short races in a very difficult course area.  One with huge down speed pot holes. 

I think it is kind of early to be throwing dirt on the coffin.

On the other hand, it seems that American Magic have made a design choice that focuses on smaller and flatter sails which are more efficient and faster once they are foiling, but have large down speed risks.  

They seem to always have the smaller jib set, and have pushed the area of the mainsail to the minimum.  Even yesterday their main seemed to have a smaller head than Prada or Ineos.  They also do not seem to push as much camber into the main. I assume this is by intent.  They also had the smallest foils on the water yesterday.  

Ineos only made the time limit by 2 minutes yesterday, so the judgement that speed in those conditions doesn’t matter because the race cannot be finished in the time limit, is not far wrong.  If the course hadn’t been shortened in both races, neither would have counted.  So one really could believe that these two losses were flukes sailed at the absolute minimum race-able conditions.  If you were going to risk something, being fast at the minimum condition might be one you would take.

SHC  

5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Problem was, they got beaten yesterday in the medium range too.

SClark vs SClarke?

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AM is a mess.  No one is taking responsibility for a HORRIBLE afterguard and helm!!!!!

 

a total shitshow

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Just now, nroose said:

They're cutting the broadcast while the boat sinks!

The boat should the be called “one American”

gee let’s hope it doesn’t sink....no one wants that 

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TVNZclip. Not looking good. Hull barely visible. Team boats around, trying to get floatation under her.

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6 minutes ago, crashtack said:

uhhh... guys? Did it go down?

LiveSailDie are still on. Lots and lots of yellow floaty things, I think it's marginal :(

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Terry can't be skipper, tactician and grinder. It's just not working. 

Dean is begging him to make decisions and he's got his head down pumping handles. 

Deano and Goody were obviously at odds about what to do at that mark rounding and nobody was in charge.

No leadership is worse than bad leadership.

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I wish AM a speedy return. You have a good boat there. It is on the edge sailing so stuff happens.

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13 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Terry can't be skipper, tactician and grinder. It's just not working. 

Dean is begging him to make decisions and he's got his head down pumping handles. 

Deano and Goody were obviously at odds about what to do at that mark rounding and nobody was in charge.

No leadership is worse than bad leadership.

Yep this is it in a nutshell.  When is someone going to take control

of the team???

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6 minutes ago, dullers said:

I wish AM a speedy return. You have a good boat there. It is on the edge sailing so stuff happens.

Watching salvage attempt on live sail die. It doesn’t look good.  Bow down but they are a long ways from their base.  All that water in the boat has to be putting a lot of stress on the hull structure. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Just now, WetHog said:

Watching salvage attempt on live sail die. It doesn’t look good.  Bow down but they are a long ways from their base.  All that water in the boat has to be putting a lot of stress on the bull structure. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

I was thinking what it would it would take for a rebuild of stuff in the next 3 days. Water in the hull is fine. So no real strain on hull. That will happen if they try to raise her with out pumping out. Anyway they will no what to do to reduce the strain.  New electrics, batteries, foil motors and associated systems. They will have their work cut out to be ready for next race.

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3 minutes ago, dullers said:

I was thinking what it would it would take for a rebuild of stuff in the next 3 days. Water in the hull is fine. So no real strain on hull. That will happen if they try to raise her with out pumping out. Anyway they will no what to do to reduce the strain.  New electrics, batteries, foil motors and associated systems. They will have their work cut out to be ready for next race.

It caught a lot of air and hit hard.  Was the bull damaged when it hit and that’s why it filled up with water?   It’s hard to see this boat sailing in 3-4 days. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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I would skip the rest of the rounds robin if I were them. Get your boat in order, rearrange your after guard and go practice and hope you can be ready for the semis.

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Just now, idontwan2know said:

I would skip the rest of the rounds robin if I were them. Get your boat in order, rearrange your after guard and go practice and hope you can be ready for the semis.

Yes.  They have to re-asses their program to put it nicely.  

They just raised a float/marker to the top of the mast.  The boat is underwater.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Watching live it’s not looking good.  Not good at all. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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4 minutes ago, nroose said:

Looking a little better now.

A lot happened in 30 minutes.  Awesome feet of sale age by all involved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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56 minutes ago, WetHog said:

It caught a lot of air and hit hard.  Was the bull damaged when it hit and that’s why it filled up with water?   It’s hard to see this boat sailing in 3-4 days. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

I would have thought that the boat capsizing would NOT be a huge problem. After all, ETNZ have done it twice and I can't recall if other teams have, but surely the boats are designed to prevent water ingress into the hull from a simple capsize.

However, I think Hoggie is probably correct when he mentions how hard it came down, and I can't help thinking that the hull may have split somewhere and that's what's causing the water ingress. Not looking good and I wish them good luck in getting it fixed.

If their campaign is over as a result of this then I really feel for them and for the event as well. But let's hope that's not the case.

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3 minutes ago, thetruth said:

Has to be skin failure or arm failure for that amount of water in. Fix in 3-4 days, yeah right. Forget about the end what about the start, 30 seconds late. Barker was and remains a lemon that no one wanted. The older lemon was riding the last wave he will ever ride but hey for US$5 mill a year over 4 why not. Not a great year for the US of fucking A

In this case Barker "sent it" in a way some of the weak and lost accuse him of not doing... someone fucked up the runners and the cascade of disaster began...

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Definately a hull breech imo.

Foil arm may have stressed hull coming back into water.

Cant understand why when comfortably in front Dean would do such a risky manoeuvre. 

Im no sailor but I boat a bit and even I know our weather gets squally like this often.

AM are making way too many mistakes at the crucial end of the regatta.

If they make the Prada cup final I will be astounded.

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19 minutes ago, thetruth said:

Has to be skin failure or arm failure for that amount of water in. Fix in 3-4 days, yeah right. Forget about the end what about the start, 30 seconds late. Barker was and remains a lemon that no one wanted. The older lemon was riding the last wave he will ever ride but hey for US$5 mill a year over 4 why not. Not a great year for the US of fucking A

image.png.4a5f20375098a81348f317e25e0d0ae9.png

Looks like skin, look at the white lines at the bottom of the back of the jib on the side of the hull.

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Glad they are all safe and the boat now being recovered good work by livesaildie when the main feed stopped. What now for AM? a huge call at the top mark Goody didn’t sound keen on it. From the on board video Terry H doesn’t look like he can see very much, comms still very delayed and quiet compared to the other boats.

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5 minutes ago, usa318 said:

I'm not going to defend Dean much, but the running back not releasing likely caused this. 

Ahhhhh yes 

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Yeah, but it seems like the confusion on board was important in the runner issue.

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1 minute ago, nroose said:

Yeah, but it seems like the confusion on board was important in the runner issue.

And the unpredictable NZ weather

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2 minutes ago, nroose said:

Yeah, but it seems like the confusion on board was important in the runner issue.

Dosnt matter who is steering at that point if the main can’t be eased your in the piss 

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Just now, Zeusproject said:

Dosnt matter who is steering at that point if the main can’t be eased your in the piss 

Right, but if multiple people are yelling opinions as they go into a dicey maneuver, that's not a good thing.

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Just now, nroose said:

Right, but if multiple people are yelling opinions as they go into a dicey maneuver, that's not a good thing.

True but in the end the wheel is turned by who.    The skipper

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Just now, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Seemed quite a confused panicky maneuver not clear calm comms. Where was TH ?

Nana napping 

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