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16 minutes ago, Cornish Viper said:

Ineos’ grinders don’t share pedestals, they all have there own and they all grind with the handles rotating forwards, that’s got to be the most efficient? I can’t believe that TH and his grinding partner are exactly the same in terms of fitness and power? Ineos can see exactly the Watts each grinder is putting out, also each pedestal could be geared for the grinder. If you look at cycling some guys use different gears and different cadence to achieve the same Watts. Also the two flight controllers can dip in and grind when Giles is able to do the pitch controller. This means they are often at 7 grinders. Also you heard one crew shout “big up the port side massive” after the race so internal competition between the grinders (very measurable) can only be a good thing. 

Excellent post. I heard the big up port grinders and thought that they have a competition with in a competition. The more we see of INEOS the more we Brits hope she turns into a swan!

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13 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

Lift generated by the foils is the square of the velocity, so if as TH said in his solo press conference, the wind increased by 10knots within seconds the boats is accelerating by 20knots or more, if this was say a doubling of the boat speed then the foil lift has quadrupled almost instantaneously... that has got to want to launch you skyward.

I imagine the biggest battle in rounding in a gust is keeping the bow (via angle of attack) down..

It might be what TH says, not what we see on the virtual eye or the stern cam. They came to the mark at 45 kts already in the squall, they rounded at 33 kts and accelerated to 44 kts before capsizing.

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4 minutes ago, Dave S said:

No idea at all I'm afraid. I've seen much bigger jobs completed overnight in dinghies (in fact I've completed an equivalent job overnight in a regatta dinghy park) but this is a completely different ballgame. As a wild and completely uneducated guess I suspect they could have it back on the water for Friday if that was the only way of staying in the regatta (which it isn't), there were no other systems to worry about (which there very much are), if they threw masses of manpower at it,  and most likely if they didn't mind taking a small weight penalty. Since RR2 effectively doesn't matter, the only sensible decision has to be to figure out how to arrive at the Semis with the best setup they can; that might involve some tradeoff between repair and work-up time, but I'm sure they're very much on top of that, the fact they'd already ultrasounded it before the press conference speaks volumes. System installation sound complex, and I doubt setup and calibration of the control systems is straightforward; could easily see that taking a day or few.

I hope they document the rebuild for release after the event, it'd be fascinating viewing...

I agree, it would be a great story within a story. Much as they are the opposition they are a likable team.  With the eclectics and calibration you would think they would want to get back out and start racing to get it sorted as it does not matter if they even lose the round robins.

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22 minutes ago, jsn7821 said:

This exactly. 

And, I suspect if Giles had his head down grinding 50% of the time, I think Ben subconsciously would be second-guessing his calls too. I know I would.

I think the other thing that is noticeable is that even though Ben is driving he is very heads up and engaged in the tactics. The wheel is not absorbing to much of his thought process. Driving the boat seems incidental to the other things he is doing.

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30 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Guys, before you get way too down the rabbit hole on analyzing the deficiencies of the AM crew.  Remember that they have the most hours at the helm of an AC 75 and by far the most hours at high wind conditions.  They have open discussions and decide by consensus.  TH said the accident had nothing to do with him on the grinder.  

However doesn’t change the fact that a tactician is a good idea. Ineos is not winning by boat speed alone 

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I think one aspect that seems to have been overlooked is the change in direction of the squall that hit. TH and some independents (incl one on here IIRC commented that the squall direction was quite different. 

If , as I believe it did, that pushed the AWA way back then it is likely to have caused the problem.

Seeing the direction of a squall is a lot harder than seeing the squall itself, especially when you are closing on it at 40kts which few on here will have done. 

I dont like the AM afterguard arrangement, but I think the criticism is overdone

 

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33 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

Lift generated by the foils is the square of the velocity, so if as TH said in his solo press conference, the wind increased by 10knots within seconds the boats is accelerating by 20knots or more, if this was say a doubling of the boat speed then the foil lift has quadrupled almost instantaneously... that has got to want to launch you skyward.

I imagine the biggest battle in rounding in a gust is keeping the bow (via angle of attack) down..

Yes, but lift is also controlled by flaps and pitch (affecting foil AoA). There is also variable downforce from the rig so the effective "weight" of the boat also changes hugely depending on changes in sail trim. So it's pretty complex and being hit with a gust during a bear away when you aren't really settled from a tack is a very difficult manoeuvre.Teams find it challenging in steady breeze. A hard splash down was likely, breaking the boat is the extreme.

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14 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It might be what TH says, not what we see on the virtual eye or the stern cam. They came to the mark at 45 kts already in the squall, they rounded at 33 kts and accelerated to 44 kts before capsizing.

TH says when they began the tack they were in 12kts of wind as they bore away they were in 23kts of wind. That would mean they entered the squall simultaneously through the manouvre.

The boat velocity may have only gone to 44kts (possibly until airborne), but it's about how quickly that happened and the especially rapid increase in lift one of the factors that can put them out if control.

 

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39 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Guys, before you get way too down the rabbit hole on analyzing the deficiencies of the AM crew.  Remember that they have the most hours at the helm of an AC 75 and by far the most hours at high wind conditions.  They have open discussions and decide by consensus.  TH said the accident had nothing to do with him on the grinder.  

The good thing is is that it is easily sorted. Sailing Anarchy is a huge rabbit hole anyway.

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I thought there was a rule of the sea that you don't have banana's on boat? It is bad luck!

It was Bens' fault!

 

(and that seagull's)

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5 minutes ago, RobG said:

Yes, but lift is also controlled by flaps and pitch (affecting foil AoA). There is also variable downforce from the rig so the effective "weight" of the boat also changes hugely depending on changes in sail trim. So it's pretty complex and being hit with a gust during a bear away when you aren't really settled from a tack is a very difficult manoeuvre.Teams find it challenging in steady breeze. A hard splash down was likely, breaking the boat is the extreme.

I agree on the flaps and pitch, but it is the rate of change or acceleration, and subsequent lift I think they'd be unused to and especially difficult to control. I don't think it is a scenario they would train for ( a tack + bear away with an instantaneous 90% increase in wind pressure) due to the risk of totalling the asset.

Also, I agree the downforce from the main partly balances the lift increase, but only if the boat is heeling to leward which is a mode I don't see them sailing in much, although I guess a mark rounding they could do for a very short time and AM certainly did as part of their capsize...

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10 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

TH says when they began the tack they were in 12kts of wind as they bore away they were in 23kts of wind. That would mean they entered the squall simultaneously through the manouvre.

The boat velocity may have only gone to 44kts (possibly until airborne), but it's about how quickly that happened and the especially rapid increase in lift one of the factors that can put them out if control.

 

The 23kts while they bore away lines up with the data from the official AC feed. But they also were sailing in 20+kts for the 30 seconds approaching the mark. This puff wasn't all that sudden.

image.thumb.png.72426570c257c7f685761f7dd4c9e26a.png

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You (and Tornado Cat) are right, I misheard TH, there was 40seconds between 12kts and 23.5kts windspeed, so they were already in the beginning of the squall. TH says it increased from 18kts to 23.5kts within 3 seconds. Not so dramatic, but still significant.

Edited by waterboy42
Correction

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Never mind the bad end to the race, it didn’t even start well.  In a race that they really had to win they did nothing prestart and misjudged the line quite badly.  What’s the excuse for that?
 

4014D8F1-EB55-43B2-B2B8-107CD4D80534.jpeg

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11 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

Also, I agree the downforce from the main partly balances the lift increase, but only if the boat is heeling to leward which is a mode I don't see them sailing in much, although I guess a mark rounding they could do for a very short time and AM certainly did as part of their capsize...

Sail trim is a very important factor, you can see the traveller constantly moving to keep the boat flat (sometimes it's above the centreline going downwind—that's got to be a first). No doubt twist is doing the same thing. As foil lift is about change in velocity/pitch/flap, rig lift is all about changes to trim and changes at a much higher frequency to foil lift, though with perhaps less authority.

I guess I'm just saying there are lots of variables, screw up just one of them and you're in trouble.

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Never mind the bad end to the race, it didn’t even start well.  In a race that they really had to win they did nothing prestart and misjudged the line quite badly.  What’s the excuse for that?
 

4014D8F1-EB55-43B2-B2B8-107CD4D80534.jpeg

A very late headsail change.

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26 minutes ago, sailer99 said:

The 23kts while they bore away lines up with the data from the official AC feed. But they also were sailing in 20+kts for the 30 seconds approaching the mark. This puff wasn't all that sudden.

image.thumb.png.72426570c257c7f685761f7dd4c9e26a.png

Maybe a 30 degree sudden wind shift which at the wrong time would certain trap you in the power zone.

Going mostly by LR data

Screenshot_20210119-124304_Chrome.jpg

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15 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Never mind the bad end to the race, it didn’t even start well.  In a race that they really had to win they did nothing prestart and misjudged the line quite badly.  What’s the excuse for that?
 

4014D8F1-EB55-43B2-B2B8-107CD4D80534.jpeg

They changed a jib at the last second. They were 4 or 5 knots faster around the cse as well.  If the winds are like that all through the finals then no one will beat them but.....first you have to finish....

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54 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

TH says when they began the tack they were in 12kts of wind as they bore away they were in 23kts of wind. That would mean they entered the squall simultaneously through the manouvre.

The boat velocity may have only gone to 44kts (possibly until airborne), but it's about how quickly that happened and the especially rapid increase in lift one of the factors that can put them out if control.

 

The first capture is taken about one second before Goodison tells "it's going to be a hard maneuver", the wind speed is 21.1

The seconds shows that Dean had to bear away on the leeward side at 44 kts,  pretty difficult place for a difficult maneuver IMO, and he could not see much with the water spray. Goodison in the windward but I don't think he touches the wheel at that moment.

I don't know how the other teams are doing. Alch is right however to say that it is the team that spent the most time on the water, they must know what to do.

Capture.PNG

Capture2.PNG

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57 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think the criticism is overdone

+1. Let he who has never screwed up the bear-away in a fast boat cast the first stone...

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Ineos video describing duties of each position. Seems effective. People are supposed to look around not all head down.

 

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Dean sounds commanding and in control of calling down the shots during most maneouvers while racing, we are just micro-focusing 

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so are there Lloyds A100A specifications for carbon or any thickness or strength rules for this years cup ?

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6 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Ineos video describing duties of each position. Seems effective. People are supposed to look around not all head down.

 

Obviously, they were stacking sand bags in that shot. ;-)

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1 hour ago, Cornish Viper said:

Ineos’ grinders don’t share pedestals, they all have there own and they all grind with the handles rotating forwards, that’s got to be the most efficient? I can’t believe that TH and his grinding partner are exactly the same in terms of fitness and power? Ineos can see exactly the Watts each grinder is putting out, also each pedestal could be geared for the grinder. If you look at cycling some guys use different gears and different cadence to achieve the same Watts. Also the two flight controllers can dip in and grind when Giles is able to do the pitch controller. This means they are often at 7 grinders. Also you heard one crew shout “big up the port side massive” after the race so internal competition between the grinders (very measurable) can only be a good thing. 

I'm going to take a wild guess that you are not a grinder . Pairs are stronger than solo as when you are on your power stroke ( over hand ) your opposing partner is in the weaker position ( underhand ) and you balance the power output.. As for power differences between the grinders those balance out and after you spend time with a partner it can work to your advantage . I could be quicker and take the lead at the beginning of a maneuver  and carry my partner knowing he would finish strong . As for the handles rotating forwards they are for both grinders as " forward " with regards to the handles is just the way you are facing the pedestal. I've had a lot of experience in both situations . 

 

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4 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Ineos video describing duties of each position. Seems effective. People are supposed to look around not all head down.

 

Whoever's boat seems to be going fastest seems to have the best set up.. not so long ago people were joking about Ineos's arrangement.

Had AM held it together and won that race by the decent margin they had at the time, their systems might be cool again.

Watching LR careering down that last run on the border of control, the conditions were likely at the top end for the foil and sail choices the teams had made.

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6 minutes ago, nota said:

so are there Lloyds A100A specifications for carbon or any thickness or strength rules for this years cup ?

Lloyd's does not write specifications for extreme boats of this type of construction or these types of systems. No classification society does.

This is what the class rule says:

1.4 Competitors are ultimately and solely responsible for the safety and structural integrity of the whole (and
any part or parts) of their AC75 Class Yacht. No express or implied warranty of safety and/or structural
integrity shall result from compliance with the whole or any part of this AC75 Class Rule. Any structural
testing required for compliance with the AC75 Class Rule does not guarantee safety or structural integrity
nor does it relieve the Competitor of this responsibility.

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7 minutes ago, maxmini said:

I'm going to take a wild guess that you are not a grinder . Pairs are stronger than solo as when you are on your power stroke ( over hand ) your opposing partner is in the weaker position ( underhand ) and you balance the power output.. As for power differences between the grinders those balance out and after you spend time with a partner it can work to your advantage . I could be quicker and take the lead at the beginning of a maneuver  and carry my partner knowing he would finish strong . As for the handles rotating forwards they are for both grinders as " forward " with regards to the handles is just the way you are facing the pedestal. I've had a lot of experience in both situations . 

 

I believe there evidence shared here that indicated stand-alone grinders are much more efficient than shared (?)

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3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Don't forget the Top Gear AC 45 race against a car.  Ben helmed and that was an over 200 mile trip.  B)

No, Sir Ben wasn’t racing his J P Morgan AC45 against Clarkson. This is a shot from the ACWS last October – photo: courtesy of Sir Ben Ainslie Racing

That's not a foiler or even foil assisted if that was the point you are trying to make.

 

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25 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Dean sounds commanding and in control of calling down the shots during most maneouvers while racing, we are just micro-focusing 

Perhaps, let's hope they improve the boat and take benefit of what happened.

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29 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Dean sounds commanding and in control of calling down the shots during most maneouvers while racing, we are just micro-focusing 

?

db.jpg.b9398744cc052b2c2bf10d471058915d.jpg

(Photo find courtesy of @Tropical Madness)

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I notice that frequently teams keep both foils in the water for a bare away - I assume that allows them to put negative lift on the weather foil to add righting moment - Am did this bare away with weather foil up - factor?

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On 1/17/2021 at 11:07 AM, alphafb552 said:

1st shot: no hole

2nd: hole

 

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200453.png

Screenshot 2021-01-17 200609.png

It seems to me that this sequence rules out the "blowout by hull contact" theory. Clearly appears the hole is there before it hits the water. 

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Look at the photo time, the second is 9 sec after the first. She could have easily bounced up after first strike.

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Just now, See Level said:

Look at the photo time, the second be is 9 sec after the first. She could have easily bounced up after first strike.

Yes the 2nd photo is after the smack down. Look at the wake and land behind, boat has smacked down and rounded up

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Never mind the bad end to the race, it didn’t even start well.  In a race that they really had to win they did nothing prestart and misjudged the line quite badly.  What’s the excuse for that?
 

4014D8F1-EB55-43B2-B2B8-107CD4D80534.jpeg

Terry said the zipper on the jib would not close all the way, so they decided to change to another jib just before the race and that put them behind.

All of the answers to these questions are in the TH interview, please watch it.

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43 minutes ago, cbulger said:

I notice that frequently teams keep both foils in the water for a bare away - I assume that allows them to put negative lift on the weather foil to add righting moment - Am did this bare away with weather foil up - factor?

AM has been the boat that is out on the water, in winds above race conditions for days, while many of the other boats stayed in the shed.  They have a great deal of experience in the tough conditions and they believe it makes then better prepared for the normal conditions (seems slowed down).   They made the risker choice at the top mark, one they felt confident about and got hit with a gust in the danger zone.  I do not think they would have changed the way they attack the course, TH says that it is just as dangerous to slow down as it is to keep the pedal to the metal.   These AC75 are more stable  when they go faster.

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

Maybe a 30 degree sudden wind shift which at the wrong time would certain trap you in the power zone.

Going mostly by LR data

Screenshot_20210119-124304_Chrome.jpg

Definitely a 30-degree shift, but again, not sudden. Seems like a fairly persistent 20 degrees in the new pressure during the 30-second lead in. I'd agree they may get hit by another 10-15 degrees during the tack that made it a lot harder. The conditions were definitely tough, but I don't like the excuse "We were hit by a freak puff" on a day when there was clear evidence of shifty and puffy winds. They claimed they lost by lottery in the light and patchy stuff, and then got surprised by a puff in puffy and shifty conditions. It's a crappy excuse and not the fault of one single member of the team, but I'd rather they own up to a mistake rather than make excuses.

I also really hope they get the boat back to 100%, they are fast and the racing was good. 

image.thumb.png.3ae84b5ed233e2825ebb886465e9a177.png

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AM is a great team, as are the 3 others. I just hope they make it onto the water in great shape for the CSS Semi Finals, or else we we will either see a very lopsided and so therefore short series; or maybe none at all. 
 

Good chance (50/50 or better) that on Friday Ineos beats LR in the forecasted fresh breeze, abbreviating that racing series too.

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46 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Terry said the zipper on the jib would not close all the way, so they decided to change to another jib just before the race and that put them behind.

All of the answers to these questions are in the TH interview, please watch it.

That explains why they were late to gate in, it doesn’t explain why they were so late to the start line. 

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35 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

AM has been the boat that is out on the water, in winds above race conditions for days, while many of the other boats stayed in the shed.  They have a great deal of experience in the tough conditions and they believe it makes then better prepared for the normal conditions (seems slowed down).   They made the risker choice at the top mark, one they felt confident about and got hit with a gust in the danger zone.  I do not think they would have changed the way they attack the course, TH says that it is just as dangerous to slow down as it is to keep the pedal to the metal.   These AC75 are more stable  when they go faster.

Despite the fact that the most experienced foiler on the boat called for the other gate in the approach citing safety specifically. TH has no incentive to say in the press conference that they took the wrong mark.

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47 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Terry said the zipper on the jib would not close all the way, so they decided to change to another jib just before the race and that put them behind.

All of the answers to these questions are in the TH interview, please watch it.

Rather than focusing on the negative (valid points) look at how much more dominant Patriot was over Britannia.  Better VMG up and down wind.  They definitely need to work on tactics but they are the fastest boat in all up foiling conditions.

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If AM had pulled off that bearaway and won by 600m+ then there’d be no questioning of the afterguard decisions and no opportunity for Dean-hatred opinions and even fresh threads attacking his skills. 
 

I take TH at his word, absolutely, from last night’s presser. He was blatantly honest - and even confident, it was great stuff. 

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6 minutes ago, sailman said:

Rather than focusing on the negative (valid points) look at how much more dominant Patriot was over Britannia.  Better VMG up and down wind.  They definitely need to work on tactics but they are the fastest boat in all up foiling conditions.

Is this a joke??  In what race did AM have better VMG than Britannia???

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1 hour ago, See Level said:

Look at the photo time, the second is 9 sec after the first. She could have easily bounced up after first strike.

Could be but I think shot #1 is on the way UP, and #2 on the way down. Is that bow cam video available anywhere? Haven't seen it. I have access to the on board cams but not that view.

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26 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

Could be but I think shot #1 is on the way UP, and #2 on the way down. Is that bow cam video available anywhere? Haven't seen it. I have access to the on board cams but not that view.

In that case she was flying for 9 seconds !!

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40 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

Could be but I think shot #1 is on the way UP, and #2 on the way down. Is that bow cam video available anywhere? Haven't seen it. I have access to the on board cams but not that view.

Pic 2 is after the smack down and the boat is rounding up, check the wake.

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5 hours ago, accnick said:

The hull has to match its declared IGS file within rule-state tolerances in order to be rule-legal. Most of these rule-controlled parts are shape-controlled via the IGS file. There is no shortage of precision data concerning shape.

Based on previous cups, and the support from all teams involved, I’m pretty sure they could glue a sheet of plywood over the hole and no one would complain. 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

If AM had pulled off that bearaway and won by 600m+ then there’d be no questioning of the afterguard decisions and no opportunity for Dean-hatred opinions and even fresh threads attacking his skills. 
 

I take TH at his word, absolutely, from last night’s presser. He was blatantly honest - and even confident, it was great stuff. 

But they didn't. And they should've, hence the questioning. We all know you lot would be all over it if Ashby told Burling not to take the mark he wanted and crashed the boat.

You take TH at his word, but anyone from the Kiwi team and its all a big lie they've all been forced into telling.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

If AM had pulled off that bearaway and won by 600m+ then there’d be no questioning of the afterguard decisions and no opportunity for Dean-hatred opinions and even fresh threads attacking his skills. 
 

I take TH at his word, absolutely, from last night’s presser. He was blatantly honest - and even confident, it was great stuff. 

in your first word lays the problem....IF!! AM didn't pull it off and questions will always be asked of DB due to these "issues" constantly happening when DB is on the helm.

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

But they didn't. And they should've, hence the questioning. We all know you lot would be all over it if Ashby told Burling not to take the mark he wanted and crashed the boat.

You take TH at his word, but anyone from the Kiwi team and its all a big lie they've all been forced into telling.

So says Minion 1. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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24 minutes ago, WetHog said:

You take TH at his word, but anyone from the Kiwi team and its all a big lie they've all been forced into telling.

You and a few other one-eyed Kiwis have for years been posting that anything anyone ever does is an attack on (of all people, big surprise!) GD and/or ETNZ. I trust plenty of people in teams, including ETNZ, to be straight. I just don’t get all the f’ing lowlife aggressiveness and zealotry about it! 
 

WRT THutch and his morning-after presser, well I do think from body language he was being as honest as he could be, given what he knew. But yes, I’m pretty skeptical about if the true extent of that boat’s problems have been discovered. edit: oops, that was not aimed at you, WH! :D 
 

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3 hours ago, zillafreak said:

It seems to me that this sequence rules out the "blowout by hull contact" theory. Clearly appears the hole is there before it hits the water. 

No. Watch the video. 

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NYYC are lucky that this capsized/damage happened at this point of the regatta any later they would have to withdraw.

Yet all four teams could overcome this damage---if they had time.

 

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2 minutes ago, chocoa said:

Yet all four teams could overcome this damage---if they had time.

THutch spoke specifically about how hard it is to replace hydraulics compared to electrics. Fingers crossed that his initial optimism on that front was warranted.. 

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3 hours ago, .......................... said:

This is my favorite pic from this bummer day... helming from the low side - photo has been corrected to level the horizon as they launch upward...

1B64F251-D865-49D2-B431-F9886A77FA32.jpeg

Glad they couldnt dump the main any more - Dean and the leeward helm would be wiped off. 

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without blaming anyone here is another view.

bearing off is fraught on these boats.

bearing off from a lee helm is more fraught because you are not directly feeling or observing any squall

as a protocal on these boats i would suggest that in squally conditions a person on the windward side should be calling the wind any time the helmsperson is on the lee side

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14 minutes ago, Swanno said:

Glad they couldnt dump the main any more - Dean and the leeward helm would be wiped off. 

Had a chuckle when Deano said "I'll stay here".

1B64F251-D865-49D2-B431-F9886A77FA32.jpeg.f0d6855b1b69465101abfb8d325ec99b.jpeg.8e7012cb266ee96451fc1a7a1471e05b.jpeg

 

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1 hour ago, Chapter Four said:

Pic 2 is after the smack down and the boat is rounding up, check the wake.

Ya makes sense. even if something did crash through would have to be after impact

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For fuck’s sake. This team is great. I truely admire the strength they’re showing, but take a quick reality check New Zealanders.

”Paying it forward” in coffee to a multi-million dollar sports team?

I hope this generosity makes its way to someone who actually needs help. 

 

77ACEC98-D514-42E0-8E7D-7E393489347C.jpeg

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Unusual that a boat is built to NOT withstand the impact of water against hull.

99% of boats would handle that port bow impact.

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21 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

You and a few other one-eyed Kiwis have for years been posting that anything anyone ever does is an attack on (of all people, big surprise!) GD and/or ETNZ. I trust plenty of people in teams, including ETNZ, to be straight. I just don’t get all the f’ing lowlife aggressiveness and zealotry about it! 
 

WRT THutch and his morning-after presser, well I do think from body language he was being as honest as he could be, given what he knew. But yes, I’m pretty skeptical about if the true extent of that boat’s problems have been discovered. edit: oops, that was not aimed at you, WH! :D 
 

What ever. How long did you go on...and on....and on....and on about the public money debacle? How long did we hear "Heads must roll" and "Dalton is only arguing with Dalton" and "Something bad is happening when a Government department is investigating"

then when the ruling came back as - no misappropriation, no fraud, no wrong doing of any kind, you turned your attention to the mediation dispute saying "There is clearly something here because there is a dispute" then when that didn't pan out, you said "oh i was only bringing it up because there was nothing else happening"

You're full of shit. You, your friend TC, and your whining buddy Alchy, nothing but whining, complaining bitter little school girls who never got their way, so have resorted to petty trolling.

Get over yourselves!

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30 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Get over yourselves!

Yawn!!! Keep repeating and posting your own version of AC history to yourself. Since you are the only one who reads that crap, maybe it’s best that after enough self-repetition it will end some day :D

To try take you seriously for 20 secs: Who got the $6M? And why is anyone even racing this weekend? Who is trying to force them to, and why? 

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yawn!!! Keep repeating and posting your own version of AC history to yourself. Since you are the only one who reads that crap, maybe it’s best that after enough self-repetition it will end some day :D

To try take you seriously for 20 secs: Who got the $6M? And why is anyone even racing this weekend? Who is trying to force them to, and why? 

Who cares about 6M!? No one. Not Dalton, not the Government, not the sponsors, not MBIE, not even the Herald anymore! So you can carry on with your bitter little crusade against Dalton while he, and WE keep winning.

Thats a new one. Now the teams are being forced to race! You've lost your mind!

Since you trust TH absolutely, you'll agree when he says "its not their job to question the ability, or the mindset of the RC" The races ago according to the rules, its that simple.

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14 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

And why is anyone even racing this weekend? Who is trying to force them to, and why

It's the rules.  Been a number of historical races where only one boat turns up but has to complete the course.

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9 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

It's the rules.  Been a number of historical races where only one boat turns up but has to complete the course.

Sponsors paid to have their brand broadcast, so satisfying them if nothing else?

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46 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Sponsors paid to have their brand broadcast, so satisfying them if nothing else?

Maybe.  But think about it.  What happens if before the next scheduled match against AM and INEOS or LR break something?  You can't give a point to anyone.  They still need to turn up and run the course successfully to earn the point.

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Your message of support, sent straight to the boat shed!
 
Have some encouraging words for the team as they work 24/7 to rebuild PATRIOT? 
 
In an effort to make sure more of our team members see the overwhelming number of messages we have received since Sunday's near-sinking, and especially those working to rebuild the yacht at all hours of the day and night, we have set up a screen about 25 feet away from the AC75 repair zone in the shed. Post your messages of encouragement at this link and they'll (quite literally) be sent directly to PATRIOT!

https://www.kudoboard.com/boards/KFt6xwLg?fbclid=IwAR2tTtncrI7SoG58HjR5q9LKlUqQmB1OK-O5Dz6UhJfTgYa6A-szokTgcBc

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1 hour ago, Lat35sowth said:

Unusual that a boat is built to NOT withstand the impact of water against hull.

99% of boats would handle that port bow impact.

99% of boats are a) not 75' long b) not travelling at 45kn and c) not dropping from a height having completely exited the water.

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1 hour ago, Lat35sowth said:

Unusual that a boat is built to NOT withstand the impact of water against hull.

99% of boats would handle that port bow impact.

Sure they would. I see you are new here. Perhaps you are new to sailing?

Own a boat?

We'll all chip in for a JATO rocket to get it up to 45 knots, remove the keel and give it a slide on it's side using a giant twisted angle floating waterski ramp so it lands on it's side, and then see what happens. I think we could put it Youtube and cover all our costs.

Mythbusters sort of did this with a car. Because we don't need to go quite as fast, only 1 or 2 rockets will be needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHUsGFGhfmk

image.thumb.png.b96ad25d7f046acc7c660f0f2a46c70e.png

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16 minutes ago, ianz said:

not travelling at 45kn

The 45 knots was forward velocity which had dissipated considerably by the time the hull hit the water.  However all those forces you mention at one stage were transmitted through the port foil and arm.  In my opinion it is from that process that the hull was distorted and weakened popping out the panel.

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The reason to let the last two boats race on Friday is because that’s what they want.. Get the RR Series over with, one way or the other!
 

There’s a good chance the Semi’s won’t even happen, so why even bother racing more than one afternoon? It means nothing, GBR and LR are the only teams left, so both straight to the CSS finale.

Why bother? GD and ACE and TV money? Who cares about that, when TV has been given away to the whole world (but bizarrely not the USA) anyway? There’s nothing to lose, just let the World Feed fill the empty space with replays. It’d beat watching dead ducks floating around, I bet the attention span on that was extremely short :D 

 

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

The reason to let the last two boats race on Friday is because that’s what they want.. Get the RR Series over with, one way or the other!
 

There’s a good chance the Semi’s won’t even happen, so even why bother racing more than one afternoon? 

Why bother? GD and ACE and TV money? Who cares about that, when TV has been given away to the whole world (but bizarrely not the USA) anyway? There’s nothing to lose, just let the World Feed fill the empty space with replays. It’d beat watching dead ducks floating around, I bet the attention span on that was extremely short :D 

 

What a stupid post. You're an idiot.

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10 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

What a stupid post. You're an idiot.

Did you read the IM quotes in the NZ Herald? 
 

oh that’s right, you like nav wasted months and months making both yourselves looking like idiots, questioning his judgement in SF. Idiot, yourselves.. 

The racing this weekend logically requires agreement between only 2 teams, who do you suppose is trying to f that up? The sheepshanker who owns the bar across the street? 

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Did you read the IM quotes in the NZ Herald? 
 

oh that’s right, you like nav wasted months and months making both yourselves looking like idiots, questioning his judgement in SF. Idiot, yourselves.. 

Selective memory huh? If you mean "Rudder gate" IM's "Safety recommendations" changed the class rule. ETNZ took them to the IJ and won.

 

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6 hours ago, zillafreak said:

It seems to me that this sequence rules out the "blowout by hull contact" theory. Clearly appears the hole is there before it hits the water. 

Watch the main vid, and looking at the starboard side, count 9 seconds from when the boat reaches somewhere near its height. After 9 seconds it has well and truly crashed down and starting the roll over. That photo with shit hanging out is after the initial crash down.

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3 hours ago, Lat35sowth said:

Unusual that a boat is built to NOT withstand the impact of water against hull.

99% of boats would handle that port bow impact.

Slam any ultra light displacement day sailor boat down from 30 foot and I am sure some shit will break.

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9 hours ago, maxmini said:

I'm going to take a wild guess that you are not a grinder . Pairs are stronger than solo as when you are on your power stroke ( over hand ) your opposing partner is in the weaker position ( underhand ) and you balance the power output.. As for power differences between the grinders those balance out and after you spend time with a partner it can work to your advantage . I could be quicker and take the lead at the beginning of a maneuver  and carry my partner knowing he would finish strong . As for the handles rotating forwards they are for both grinders as " forward " with regards to the handles is just the way you are facing the pedestal. I've had a lot of experience in both situations . 

 

So double pedestals are geared for the power of two, so at no point can one person grind it and perform to their optimum. This ties up crew. The power part of the stroke was addressed years ago in cycling with the front crank on the bike going from round to elliptical, I’m pretty sure they’re not using Harken/Lewmar off the shelf gearboxes. They will be geared for the individual grinder. 
On LR they have to stand when they grind hard, this shows that when in their “aero” positioning they can’t perform to their max. 
When you say it can be help to balance out performance differences, I respectfully disagree, in a 20min race, one guy is getting “carried” for periods where he’s not contributing as much as others. Grinding like cycling is all about power output for a given time which in this case like cycling is very measurable, there’s a reason no other boat has a 50 year old grinder.  The proof is there. Ineos generates more than enough grinding power to win races and does it in a way to free up more guys to fly, sail and position the boat. Just like TNZ did in Bermuda. 

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4 hours ago, Lat35sowth said:

Unusual that a boat is built to NOT withstand the impact of water against hull.

99% of boats would handle that port bow impact.

99% of boats do not go 40+ knots, have a very light weight racing hull and fly 20 feet out of the water

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40 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

99% of boats do not go 40+ knots, have a very light weight racing hull and fly 20 feet out of the water

Exactly my point as to why Patriot blew a foofoo valve.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The reason to let the last two boats race on Friday is because that’s what they want.. Get the RR Series over with, one way or the other!
 

There’s a good chance the Semi’s won’t even happen, so why even bother racing more than one afternoon? It means nothing, GBR and LR are the only teams left, so both straight to the CSS finale.

Why bother? GD and ACE and TV money? Who cares about that, when TV has been given away to the whole world (but bizarrely not the USA) anyway? There’s nothing to lose, just let the World Feed fill the empty space with replays. It’d beat watching dead ducks floating around, I bet the attention span on that was extremely short :D 

 

You're a nasty little cunt and now on my Iggy list. The sewage that converts from your mind ravaged by fetal alcohol syndrome to these pages is less than worthless. It actually makes this place depressing as your contribution is almost always to the negitive.

There is no way nor point in arguing with an idiot as there is no comprehension on your side. 

Get help before it's too late. 

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14 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That's the money shot for me.  If you go back a couple or three frames you will see the foil foot plant.  It starts to plane and then wham it digs in and is forced back plus the whole boat pivots on that point.  The kinetic energy must dissipate somewhere and in my opinion that focus point was where the "panel" popped.  That pop was "outwards" not inwards from the force of water on touchdown.

I think it was a double hit effectively, that moment popped it out and then hitting the water popped it in and blew the hole as the panel hit the bulkheads.

There is a visible circular crack around the front on the foil hinge point to prove the theory .

 

 

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On 1/17/2021 at 11:20 PM, The_Alchemist said:

I am not so sure those are cracks.  The surface is made of strands of carbon fiber tape that goes in various directions.  To me, it looks like the object hit the hull and broke most of the carbon fiber strips as it went through, thus the square hole.  But, it did not break all of those carbon fiber strips cleanly and some peeled back and tore off the surface finish of the hull.  It does not make sense that an object would cause those types of cracks in the hull composite.  We are just seeing where those strips peeled back the surface layer.

Looking at those pictures, I would get the boat into the spray shop and get her painted gold. It looks bloody good. My personal opinion is that Patriot is the best looking boat.

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