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42 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Remember the early video where they showed a perfect foiling tack and every bodies head exploded?

In AC35 the buildup and the enormous ACWS series that led up to it inAC45s that were foilers for the in the final season before the Cup in AC50’s, the progression through the Cup was

Foiling while reaching (first time we saw it was OTUSA on SF Bay in an AC 45)

Foiling gybes

Foiling even upwind

Foiling tacks

Foiling 100%

That progression order will likely be the same for the AC75s.

 

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

That’s the shit quality/far enough away not see anything of a vid that’s been posted before that DID have a tow line on it. 
 

the bloke by the mast bit is identical 

1263116629_whiningpom.jpg.23d6332c1375d64ba8934a787135a55a.jpg

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46 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

In AC35 the buildup and the enormous ACWS series that led up to it inAC45s that were foilers for the in the final season before the Cup in AC50’s, the progression through the Cup was

Foiling while reaching (first time we saw it was OTUSA on SF Bay in an AC 45)

Foiling gybes

Foiling even upwind

Foiling tacks

Foiling 100%

That progression order will likely be the same for the AC75s.

 

Well, if AC75 follows the AC45 progression, but I don't remember having seen AC45 towed to foil.

 

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Its possible you're right. I reckon you're wrong. We'll see progression so fast it'll all seem like it happened on the same day.

 

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@Indio is it TC or Stingray that I'm supposed to either ignore or give a hard time to?

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14 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

@Indio is it TC or Stingray that I'm supposed to either ignore or give a hard time to?

Hahaha!! You're welcome to both :wub:

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

In AC35 the buildup and the enormous ACWS series that led up to it inAC45s that were foilers for the in the final season before the Cup in AC50’s, the progression through the Cup was

Foiling while reaching (first time we saw it was OTUSA on SF Bay in an AC 45)

Foiling gybes

Foiling even upwind

Foiling tacks

Foiling 100%

That progression order will likely be the same for the AC75s.

 

I thought it was we saw the ETNZ SL33 foil before Oracles feeble attempts to foil the 45

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If you want to argue or brag about the NZ boat, please do so on the NZ thread.  This is all spam to those that want to read about NYYC progress.

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On 9/22/2019 at 1:02 PM, Herfy said:

If you want to argue or brag about the NZ boat, please do so on the NZ thread.  This is all spam to those that want to read about NYYC progress.

You're starting to sound like @dg_sailingfan in his Larrys AC50 Circus thread telling people to go away unless they have something positive to say about SailGP lol

This discussion started with ETNZ haters saying AM were well advanced on ETNZ because they are able to foil without the aid of a tow rope. You were once again wrong.

It is perfectly within the scope of the conversation, so No. Its not spam, its just not something YOU want to hear. I can't help that so you'll just have to suck it up and take it.

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6 hours ago, Rskiff said:

I'd say where is the tow boats wake if towing?

 

 

Blimp? Racing blimp?

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6 hours ago, Indio said:

1263116629_whiningpom.jpg.23d6332c1375d64ba8934a787135a55a.jpg

I guess that’s me having a cry is it? Look I am not hating your super lovely clever inventive team  but the fact is that from the first hit out footage they needed a tow to get going. End of. 

why? Cos there was fuck all wind! It’s impressive they could then keep it on the foils for a bit, no one knows how long or if they did and manoeuvres, they got the shot for the cameras and that’s great. 

are they gonna want to run races where boats have to tow them up to speed to foil? No cos it looks fucking stupid and putting in a minimum wind strength for racing is sensible.

comment and the truth IS NOT criticism ok

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Tow wake + line

Capture.PNG.53d3fd30f708c8c3d0b9e89015d84a1b.PNG

that shot isn't the same as the "business time" video, so you can't compare it. In the video there isn't any wake from a chase boat  

 

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11 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Tow wake + line

Capture.PNG.53d3fd30f708c8c3d0b9e89015d84a1b.PNG

True to form TC. Way to use a completely different picture to try and prove your point lol

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On 9/21/2019 at 5:06 AM, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Riding very high in comparison too. Cant wait to see Flipper in a decent breeze.

I've had chat with few knowledgeable guys this we.

AM rudder looks quite longer than ETNZ one (number I heard is 50 cm longer, not sure is accurate) so probably the 2 boats are designed to fly at different heights.

It should be opposite for the elevators, with the americans with a smaller one (in span).

It's interesting how teams are definitely getting to different conclusions... can't wait to see LR and the UK boat

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55 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

True to form TC. Way to use a completely different picture to try and prove your point lol

I don't care what video it is in or not.  What I care is knowing if they foiled by themselves yesterday, see pics of Flipper foiling in 18 kts of wind, probably above 30 kts, it must be great. But also why they came back towed.

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42 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't care what video it is in or not.  What I care is knowing if they foiled by themselves yesterday, see pics of Flipper foiling in 18 kts of wind, probably above 30 kts, it must be great. But also why they came back towed.

They were testing just off Long Bay. That's to the North East of the base. (Mmmm roughly) The wind was South West yesterday. Sailboats cannot sail directly into the wind. (Even ones painted red and black). It was a fine weekend. Many boats were out enjoying the water. Many boats were returning to their respective marinas yesterday. It was busy at the entrance and a foiling 75 foot mono that is in the early testing stages would most likely be a  unwelcome addition to the mix.

Does that reduce the complexity of why they were towed in down to the level a Trump supporter like you can understand?  Please reply and we'll send you a lollipop and handgun as reward.

@Indio (like this?)

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So, it's been a while. What's The Platypus been up to?

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I got to see first hand AM make two runs today in the upper bay, and these videos don't do these boats any justice.  Seeing them come ripping through at 30-40kts is absolutely incredible. The noise you hear as they go by is something else.  Seeing two of these beasts actually race will be worth the trip to NZL.  No doubt these are exciting times.

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21 hours ago, Rskiff said:

that shot isn't the same as the "business time" video, so you can't compare it. In the video there isn't any wake from a chase boat  

 

Would have been more appropriate if they would have left the part in that song about lasting for 2 minutes though.

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Haven't seen AM boat for a while on this thread but will still comment about it.

Higher ride height might be a good advantage when looking at early maneuver. As stated above, second foil dip in the water seems to induce quite some drag, leading then to drop of height. First foiling maneuver will come when they manage to power up the boat before it touches the water.

Wonder what is the best combination, I would go instinctively for rather smaller foils to maximize high speed and higher ride to have more margin for maneuvers given lift has been sacrificed for max speed. This might be AM philosophy while TNZ has gone for more lift, lower ride by the look of it (which has its own advantages).

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14 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, it's been a while. What's The Platypus been up to?

I still prefer "The Big MAC".

WetHog  :ph34r:

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On 9/20/2019 at 10:41 PM, Sailbydate said:

Nice demonstration of how much drag is induced by that second foil immersion - then she flops onto her big guts as the new windward arm is raised. But I have to say, Defiant seems a bit more advanced with manoeuvres than, Flipper at this stage. 

remember that AM has been sailing the mule for the past year so they have a lot more knowledge, experience and confidence sailing a foiling mono. ETNZ will quickly get the hang of it. 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

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That looks like a boat that is flying in optimal condition.

What is that black fabric on the boom.  Could that be a deck sweeper (not in use) that just cuts off the downdraft between leeward and windward sails?  Don't really need it to provide any special lift, just reduce the drag.

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2 hours ago, Herfy said:

That looks like a boat that is flying in optimal condition.

What is that black fabric on the boom.  Could that be a deck sweeper (not in use) that just cuts off the downdraft between leeward and windward sails?  Don't really need it to provide any special lift, just reduce the drag.

My guess too since the sweeper is almost all about simply preventing flow from the high to the low pressure sides of the main under the boom to eliminate the vortex there and effectively elongate the main - it needn’t be too-too fancy. 

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2 hours ago, Herfy said:

That looks like a boat that is flying in optimal condition.

Agree... it's a still, but it does appear to be sitting well and tight, nice nose down angle, team well tucked in... going like stink... :-)

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10 minutes ago, underperformer said:

I’d say it is time for the first capsize pics. As everybody knows you are not sailing if you haven’t capsized

Agreed, capsizes will be amazing events.

They are supposed to be self-righting but gawd knows how exactly that’s supposed to happen or what impact a capsize will have on the boat and the systems. Yikes!

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2 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Agree... it's a still, but it does appear to be sitting well and tight, nice nose down angle, team well tucked in... going like stink... :-)

Ground effect, looks very possible too.

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

Ground effect, looks very possible too.

I don’t believe GE is going on with a ‘wing’ (beam) that size. It’s simply ‘slippery.’ 

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53 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I don’t believe GE is going on with a ‘wing’ (beam) that size. It’s simply ‘slippery.’ 

Cormorants (and many aquatic birds who fly over flat water) use GE while flapping their wings

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Just now, Rasputin22 said:

I bet they will try and slip out of sight and do a righting exercise before doing so in front of the spies and naysayers.

it would be cool to see the teams showing reality, good and bad. it's gonna happen to everybody at some point. if you aren't crashing, you aren't learning.

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14 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Cormorants (and many aquatic birds who fly over flat water) use GE while flapping their wings

Have you noticed their wingspans relative to the height above the water, to achieve ground effects? 

There could be a very-minimal ground effect for the Magic hull but it looks primarily just aero-slippery. They plan to fly.

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9 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

9890104A-89CE-4F17-81C2-0A4C3FE09AB9.jpeg.8d27c82158521f8297dc77b1a656587c.jpeg

For some time now, the jib appears to me to have volume. I know it doesn't,  but it looks that way to me. When combined with the main, it looks like a two element wing. Weird. I am liking this jib setup better than ETNZ's, sorry. 

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Have you noticed their wingspans relative to the height above the water, to achieve ground effects? 

There could be a very-minimal effect for the Magic hull but it looks primarily slippery.

I observe Pied Shags as I have a colony on my water front.  It is amazing to feel them fly past your head as you swim.  They flap their wings and fly higher than their  body width and at amazing speed.  Their wings touch the water sometimes.  Mostly ground effect I am told.

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4 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

I observe Pied Shags as I have a colony on my water front.  It is amazing to feel them fly past your head as you swim.  They fly higher than their width and at amazing speed.  Mostly ground effect I am told.

I’m sure that’s cool to observe. 

Look at an Albatross for the very best example, they are nature’s ultimate GE evolution. Those Italian guys, while fantasizing about Magic’s hull, named Magic ‘The Albatross.’

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10 minutes ago, Varan said:

I am liking this jib setup better than ETNZ's, sorry.

Te Aihe was using a much smaller head sail for some of the windy conditions they were out in the other day. AM look to be using the same setup for the moderate conditions they've been out in. Wouldn't read too much into it at this stage.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Te Aihe was using a much smaller head sail for some of the windy conditions they were out in the other day. AM look to be using the same setup for the moderate conditions they've been out in. Wouldn't read too much into it at this stage.

In the last AC, at over 40 knots, headsails were little more than drag. This time I suspect won't be a lot different...

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4 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

In the last AC, at over 40 knots, headsails were little more than drag. This time I suspect won't be a lot different...

Headsails were useful for transitions, they would not have raced with it if it was just for drag.

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That video is making AM look pretty damn fine.

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20 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Interesting to notice they fly lower, very close to the water for max RM. I would like to see them in more wind now.

Hard to tell a lot from 5s but looks to me like they're slowing from a gust, probably hit the water & stop shortly after the end.

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1 minute ago, hoom said:

Hard to tell a lot from 5s but looks to me like they're slowing from a gust, probably hit the water & stop shortly after the end.

Very possible, then it would have been interesting to see how the boat reacts when hitting water.

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wins loses or spectacular crashes

these things are going to be friken awsum to watch

 

auckland xmas 2020 / 2021 .....  be there !!!

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5 hours ago, underperformer said:

I’d say it is time for the first capsize pics. As everybody knows you are not sailing if you haven’t capsized

That is one area that NYYC will happily let NZ be first.

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

In the last AC, at over 40 knots, headsails were little more than drag. This time I suspect won't be a lot different...

In one of the articles it was mentioned that the headsail makes the boat much more stable.

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4 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

World's fastest boats don't have headsails. just useless drag in high apparent wind speeds.

 

This may be true, but outright speed isn't the only important factor.  Headsails may be extremely useful for maneuvering and accelerating back to top speed. 

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19 minutes ago, shoeby11 said:

This may be true, but outright speed isn't the only important factor.  Headsails may be extremely useful for maneuvering and accelerating back to top speed. 

Fair enough. But what could the bowsprit be for?

They could be planning to use a code-0 downwind in light-air displacement mode. But if they start foiling even in light air, the apparent wind will quickly wrap a code-0 back around the mast. Logically then the only situation to use it in would be air so light that foiling is not possible at all, and in air that light it would be hard for the RC to set a course and in all likelihood there'd be a postponement until the wind fills in and then, well, the wind is back to the point where using a code-0 would be illogical. 

So I don't understand the sprit. 

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5 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

World's fastest boats don't have headsails. just useless drag in high apparent wind speeds.

 

They don't tack either.

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1 hour ago, 2Newts said:

So I don't understand the sprit. 

It was for breaking the champagne  bottle.

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I don't keep up with the AC rules, etc. But I do have a question: why is Deano skippering AM? Is he a dual citizen or something?

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2 hours ago, Swanno said:

They don't tack either.

Or have sails, gybe and have a crew of one and a wing with no hydraulics 

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

I don't keep up with the AC rules, etc. But I do have a question: why is Deano skippering AM? Is he a dual citizen or something?

There always have been mercenaries, er, non-national sailors. Current AC36 nationality rule allows for a percentage of non-national. I forget what. There is a residency requirement.

That's why I called Oracle's AC team OTAUS cause they had like one American on board. Lots of Aussies. Wikipedia gives teams.

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5 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Fair enough. But what could the bowsprit be for?

They could be planning to use a code-0 downwind in light-air displacement mode. But if they start foiling even in light air, the apparent wind will quickly wrap a code-0 back around the mast. Logically then the only situation to use it in would be air so light that foiling is not possible at all, and in air that light it would be hard for the RC to set a course and in all likelihood there'd be a postponement until the wind fills in and then, well, the wind is back to the point where using a code-0 would be illogical. 

So I don't understand the sprit. 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSz8aAAVUQ9h3eFM3JtRBc

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30 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

There always have been mercenaries, er, non-national sailors. Current AC36 nationality rule allows for a percentage of non-national. I forget what. There is a residency requirement.

That's why I called Oracle's AC team OTAUS cause they had like one American on board. Lots of Aussies. Wikipedia gives teams.

Non-nationals need to live in the challenger's country for a certain time to count as "national" in the AC sense. I forgot the number, it's somewhere in the prot. Too lazy to look for it; SD can certainly read for itself.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

There always have been mercenaries, er, non-national sailors. Current AC36 nationality rule allows for a percentage of non-national. I forget what. There is a residency requirement.

That's why I called Oracle's AC team OTAUS cause they had like one American on board. Lots of Aussies. Wikipedia gives teams.

Thanks Clew. Again, I don't care at all about who did what in previous iterations. Using past perceived wrongs to justify a present wrong certainly doesn't equal moral high ground. And there's a hell of a lot of that kind of hypocrisy around there.

I do think the AC would be much more interesting if it were truly national teams instead of corporate teams loopholing/hiding under national flags. But that's me. And I understand that money is money.

BTW tell The Schwester to relax a bit. Good gravy she's uptight.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Non-nationals need to live in the challenger's country for a certain time to count as "national" in the AC sense. I forgot the number, it's somewhere in the prot. Too lazy to look for it; SD can certainly read for itself.

Deano will have qualified on residency (about 380 days minimum, from memory) by Cagliari. The other Aussie mercs may well qualify if they have residences in the US ... just saying :P

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8 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Fair enough. But what could the bowsprit be for?

They could be planning to use a code-0 downwind in light-air displacement mode. But if they start foiling even in light air, the apparent wind will quickly wrap a code-0 back around the mast. Logically then the only situation to use it in would be air so light that foiling is not possible at all, and in air that light it would be hard for the RC to set a course and in all likelihood there'd be a postponement until the wind fills in and then, well, the wind is back to the point where using a code-0 would be illogical. 

So I don't understand the sprit. 

Part of the original class smoke and mirrors.  "Look its a conventional monohull, it'll even have spinnakers"

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The bow sprit + code 0 were used in the early months of the AC72s and soon abandoned, they even cut the bowsprit to improve the aero drag. We have not seen it used on the AC75 either, even in light conditions, the only time we saw it was on the artist rendition of the yacht.

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8 hours ago, Swanno said:

They don't tack either.

Right. A Class catamaran without or with lifting foils can't tack, lousy to windward? Or how about a C Class with foils? They're dogs beating too? Or the 40 odd year old D Class designs, held  world's speed record for a number of years. Can't go to windward either? Just trashed all competition of the day and  first to average over 30 knots over measured distance. 18 square metres were hopeless performers too? Mayfly had una rig, held class speed record for many years, sailed to windward fine. Even ancient Finns,  (with rotating masts, no less) dogs to windward too? Not to mention the one way tack world's speed record proa VSR (ok, one way) but where no other design has come close, nor likely to? Put a headsail on that machine? Beyond humorous joke?

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The bowsprits only disappeared off the AC72 because the effective wind limits were raised to 10 knots or so, when it was the original 3 knots there was a very viable reason to carry them.

The AC75 will foil in much less wind than it will lift out in (hence the tow launches we have seen on almost flat water), the code 0 is to allow lift off in a couple of knots less breeze, it will then be roller furled and lowered, at least that's the logic.

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7 minutes ago, Boybland said:

The AC75 will foil in much less wind than it will lift out in (hence the tow launches we have seen on almost flat water), the code 0 is to allow lift off in a couple of knots less breeze, it will then be roller furled and lowered, at least that's the logic.

The AC50 and F50 don't need code 0 because they are light, powerful, and foil faster without the added drag.

The only reasons I see are either, to please Bertellli, to rise on the foils in light wind, or because they were not sure of the performance of their boat when writing the rule.

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

:lol:Thanks Clew. Again, I don't care at all about who did what in previous iterations. Using past perceived wrongs to justify a present wrong certainly doesn't equal moral high ground. And there's a hell of a lot of that kind of hypocrisy around there.

I do think the AC would be much more interesting if it were truly national teams instead of corporate teams loopholing/hiding under national flags. But that's me. And I understand that money is money.

BTW tell The Schwester to relax a bit. Good gravy she's uptight.

Really, Dean Barker's an ETNZ plant. If AM and ETNZ meet in the match, Barker's choking skills will kick in... :lol:

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Deano will have qualified on residency (about 380 days minimum, from memory) by Cagliari. The other Aussie mercs may well qualify if they have residences in the US ... just saying :P

Dean who? :lol:

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51 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

Right. A Class catamaran without or with lifting foils can't tack, lousy to windward? Or how about a C Class with foils? They're dogs beating too? Or the 40 odd year old D Class designs, held  world's speed record for a number of years. Can't go to windward either? Just trashed all competition of the day and  first to average over 30 knots over measured distance. 18 square metres were hopeless performers too? Mayfly had una rig, held class speed record for many years, sailed to windward fine. Even ancient Finns,  (with rotating masts, no less) dogs to windward too? Not to mention the one way tack world's speed record proa VSR (ok, one way) but where no other design has come close, nor likely to? Put a headsail on that machine? Beyond humorous joke?

The comment I replied to was thabout the fastest boats, not the fastest boats in a class. Paul Larsen is the record holder in that orange capsule with a wing. That's thing went in one direction

The worlds fastest 420 would have had a symmetrical kite up though, much like your comment, it isn't relevant.

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

Deano will have qualified on residency (about 380 days minimum, from memory) by Cagliari. The other Aussie mercs may well qualify if they have residences in the US ... just saying :P

I guess that's the problem then. So nationality doesn't really matter here in the AC. It's more for show. I mean, that's been pretty obvious for a while now - but I was just curious what the underlying rule was. You basically sail for company, not country - with a yacht club being the team broker. Cool.

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And these guys are also under "developing" rules. 

Plus USA sailed with an Aussie replacement Tom Johnson. 

They make the rules.

20190924_202005.jpg

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1 hour ago, Swanno said:

The comment I replied to was thabout the fastest boats, not the fastest boats in a class. Paul Larsen is the record holder in that orange capsule with a wing. That's thing went in one direction

The worlds fastest 420 would have had a symmetrical kite up though, much like your comment, it isn't relevant.

Yes, your last comment is completely irrelevant.

Try rereading (slowly) what I wrote.

 

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Wait, I'm talking about AC - not SailGP. Are you saying they are the same? I don't think so.

Regardless, one of them is on a committed path to having truly national teams - the other is clearly not. And that's my point - I think AC would be better off if it followed the true nation vs nation model like they used to. It's like it's trying now to be all things to all people. And that's not a good model for sustainability.

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8 hours ago, Boybland said:

The bowsprits only disappeared off the AC72 because the effective wind limits were raised to 10 knots or so, when it was the original 3 knots there was a very viable reason to carry them.

The AC75 will foil in much less wind than it will lift out in (hence the tow launches we have seen on almost flat water), the code 0 is to allow lift off in a couple of knots less breeze, it will then be roller furled and lowered, at least that's the logic.

I think it is too difficult to lower it down as there is no spare crew to do the bow. Rolled maybe.

My guess? they will take a nice chainsaw and cut it.
 

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

I reckon all the teams need to speak in their national language. That's why I liked the French, they had a true national feel.

Apparently Luna Rossa is planning on doing just that for the Americas Cup. Jimmy has had to learn Italian by order of Patrizio Bertelli. Sure is going to be fun hearing Jimmy speaking Italian.

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8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Apparently Luna Rossa is planning on doing just that for the Americas Cup. Jimmy has had to learn Italian by order of Patrizio Bertelli. Sure is going to be fun hearing Jimmy speaking Italian.

ragazzettiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

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5 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Wait, I'm talking about AC - not SailGP. Are you saying they are the same? I don't think so.

Regardless, one of them is on a committed path to having truly national teams - the other is clearly not. And that's my point - I think AC would be better off if it followed the true nation vs nation model like they used to. It's like it's trying now to be all things to all people. And that's not a good model for sustainability.

As opposed to a billionaire with more money than he knows what to do with, that opens his wallet, builds a few boats, buys a few guys and says "Hey Tommy, since I fucked up when I denied you the steering duties and gave Jimmy his camo wheel, go and grab ya mates, money is no object and we can pretend to represent these countries that I've chosen. There's no Kiwi's this time so you can actually win this one"

The AC has existed for over 160 years. It is perfectly sustainable.

SailGP isn't a good model for sustainability, it relies on Larry's interest, which as we've seen wavers once he loses interest. Teams need sponsors, especially if its going to cost 7 million dollars a year (at least) to campaign. 

When SailGP has existed for 160 years, and remains relevant like the AC is, let me know. Until then, you have nothing except your own gullible opinion to base your statements about SailGP being more sustainable than the AC on.

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