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5 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Quote: "Your arguments seem vague and unconvincing"
Cute, thanks.

My arguments are based on my daily experiences, and me being part of the program. The car was bulit is Saarlouis, GER, and engineered in Cologne, GER.
And when I reference "company culture", it's the way the hierarchies are built, the opportunity to voice your opinion, the way the employees work together and communicate. This does not mean that there are no a##hats at Ford, but the culture encourages more own opinion, allows flatter hierarchical structures and a more empowered organization altogether than e.g. at VW, Kia, Hyundai and BMW. Well, BMW has at least style, but the rest?

Bad news day :-(

https://jalopnik.com/why-so-many-ford-focus-rs-owners-are-freaking-out-about-1820280550

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17 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Thank goodness, since it does look like a great little car

“Ford is aware that some 2016-17 Focus RS customers have experienced concerns with their engines, which may initially show white exhaust smoke and/or coolant consumption. We are working on a repair for all customers. In the meantime, if vehicles show these symptoms, customers should visit their dealer for an inspection and repair under warranty.”

Still, it reminded me of this

https://mobile.twitter.com/uready4football/status/927600376790110208

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On 11/8/2017 at 1:55 PM, Rennmaus said:

I love tumble weeds.

And just because I want to show off a bit, this was the first car I worked on in project management (still super proud of it):
ford-focus-rs-hot-hatch-vergleich-2-4812961352292681641.thumb.jpg.e20f9e5eabae51638c27e3c5ae346f1b.jpg

Thats pretty damn cool, Renny.  

Question for you, Renny.  Is the RS for sale right now at my local ford dealer a close cousin to this?  I ask because I am a Ford guy, but more Ford truck than car, Ford cars give me pause. 

http://www.uppermarlboroford.com/new/Ford/2017-Ford-Focus+RS-a7e378540a0e0a6b12046eb8d2621bc9.htm?searchDepth=3:4

But I love me a hot-hatch and I"ve driven a Focus ST in anger and I enjoyed it.  I suspect the RS version is more enjoyable than a ST.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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46 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Thank goodness, since it does look like a great little car

“Ford is aware that some 2016-17 Focus RS customers have experienced concerns with their engines, which may initially show white exhaust smoke and/or coolant consumption. We are working on a repair for all customers. In the meantime, if vehicles show these symptoms, customers should visit their dealer for an inspection and repair under warranty.”

Still, it reminded me of this

https://mobile.twitter.com/uready4football/status/927600376790110208

And there is my pause....

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Looks like it’s really going to happen this time around. Could drive a guy to succumb to their horribly basest-instinct urges! The project’s code name is ‘Zora.’

http://www.motortrend.com/news/spied-mid-engine-chevrolet-corvette-caught-track-testing/

Speculation too:

571398.jpg

C8-Zora-ZR1-Mid-Engine-Corvette-Renderin

Now that is a fucking cool looking car. Especially in red.

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16 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Now that is a fucking cool looking car. Especially in red.

Yep. Looks fabulous. But is it any good?

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50 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Yep. Looks fabulous. But is it any good?

I'll plead the 5th on that one SBD. 

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I'll add to the speculation that has dogged this subject for decades.  Among the difficulties of committing to a mid-engine design are (1) The comparative difficulty and cost of tooling an evolving design, relying on off-the shelf-parts, and committing to a design that has too little in common with past efforts to provide an opportunity for cost-saving.  A mid-engine configuration calls for an entirely new approach to designing the frame, suspension and drive train.  Not much of consequence carries over from the front-engine car.  To confront this challenge while maintaining production of the current design, if only for a year, suggests Chevrolet has more than fully recovered from the financial horrors of 2007.  (2) Time after time Chevrolet has sampled its enthusiasts concerning their receptivity to an entirely new Corvette.  In their response Corvette owners display an affinity for the past that equals that of the Porsche community.  No Porsche owners shared the factory's interest in the 928 and 944 series of front-engine sports cars.  Porsche marketing cited legacy; current owners of the 911 knew better and walked away.  The number of current Corvette owners expressing delight for a mid-engine car of the same name is no greater.   There may be some tolerance among younger owners but the bulk of the ability to pay and especially the ability to pay a premium for a new idea of what a Corvette should be is vested in owners sampling shows to be fifty-five years old and older.  What interest there is lies largely in owners too few in number and too little in wealth to carry the cost of a fresh start to what makes a sports car a Corvette.  Even if Chevrolet gets the engineering right, design and management presentations to the national Corvette Owner's Club bare an hostility to this change that could lead to resistance for resistances sake.

A future that has a place for the Corvette will demand the car and with it, Corvette owners, abandon the bragging rights that go with displacement and horsepower.  A dual overhead cam V6 of 3 liters and 310 horsepower will deliver more of what makes a 2600 pound, mid-engine sports car responsive than Corvette owners have known in the decades the plastic pachyderm has delivered performance at low cost.  The Corvette will come into its own only to find the hot rod thinking that dominates discussions of the car's advantages works to deny the Corvette an opportunity to mature.  Le Mans is a showcase for accomplishments Corvette owners  fail to appreciate when the Chevrolet asks What's next?  

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9 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Yep. Looks fabulous. But is it any good?

The Lotus or the Ferarri??

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15 hours ago, WetHog said:

Thats pretty damn cool, Renny.  

Question for you, Renny.  Is the RS for sale right now at my local ford dealer a close cousin to this?  I ask because I am a Ford guy, but more Ford truck than car, Ford cars give me pause. 

http://www.uppermarlboroford.com/new/Ford/2017-Ford-Focus+RS-a7e378540a0e0a6b12046eb8d2621bc9.htm?searchDepth=3:4

But I love me a hot-hatch and I"ve driven a Focus ST in anger and I enjoyed it.  I suspect the RS version is more enjoyable than a ST.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yes, the 2016 RS (the blue AWD one) is also available in the US. But you read the article above, so I would wait for the fix to be implemented. It is kind of related to the green one, same platform, but has more horsepower, AWD and more features. 

Don't try to get an MK1 (1998-2006), it's a dog.

The quality of the green one ("my" car, MK2, frt wheel drive, revo knuckles, 2009-2016?) is great, but it was never sold in the US. Initially it was planned to build just 8000 units, but in the end it were >11K. Then the tools were done, and we needed the line for the successor.
 

16 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Thank goodness, since it does look like a great little car

“Ford is aware that some 2016-17 Focus RS customers have experienced concerns with their engines, which may initially show white exhaust smoke and/or coolant consumption. We are working on a repair for all customers. In the meantime, if vehicles show these symptoms, customers should visit their dealer for an inspection and repair under warranty.”

Still, it reminded me of this

https://mobile.twitter.com/uready4football/status/927600376790110208

Never ever has this been broadcast this way, but really funny.
 

13 hours ago, jaysper said:

Now that is a fucking cool looking car. Especially in red.

Agree, this is pure emotion.
 

11 hours ago, Rskiff said:

what a shit thread this turned into, just saying

Open your own, go the the AC porridge thread, or even better, post some news about the NYYC AC challenge?

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5 hours ago, rgeek said:

The Lotus or the Ferarri??

The Chev Corvette.

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On 11/8/2017 at 8:22 PM, jaysper said:

Interestingly I used to work in industrial automation also.

With regards to the quality issue, I look at consumer stats and class actions.

If you look at the Focus and Festiva (IIRC), they are currently the subject of a large class action in Oz.

With regards to Toyota, I have been of the opinion that they aren't all that for a number of years now despite owning one. However seems that Mazda sits atop the quality heap at the moment and Hyunkia atop the value for money heap.

I’m not worried. The bulk of serious issues with the Focus/Fiesta (not Festiva, we Americans pay attention to detail) relate to shitty automatic transmissions. My car isn’t even offered with one of those. I could care less if the boring people suffer. 

Regarding Mazda, nice, but bland. There’s currently no Speed3 hatchback available here, so they never crossed my radar when I was car shopping last year. 

I’m not a die hard Ford guy, just a big fan of their new found love for hot hatches here in America. When someone else builds a better toy, I’ll buy that. 

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I have no kids, by choice, but do have a 17 yr old newphew from my brother and only sibling.

Bro and I decided that since we can’t afford to keep him in the $B kids Ferarrari crowd at school it’d be fun to do something old-school instead and so he drives a fresh ‘68 Mustang Fastback, with new modern everything to make it safe and fun.

And my nephew, mostly into other cool things besides cars, now loves it. The amazing/surprising thing is how the girls love it too. It is absolutely the coolest car in town, was even the featured focus in the photo’s of the players and cheerleaders after their underdog Lake Washington team creamed across the lake Mercer Island in football recently.

:)

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On 09/11/2017 at 1:24 PM, jaysper said:

For example, I wouldn't buy ANYTHING VW regardless of where it was designed and built because that company has a really shitty culture.

 

Thanks for keeping this thread on topic and for your expert point of view, I was surely wrong to drive a Jetta TSI, Audi A4 or Audi A5 S line TFSI; my buddies in this cold snowing winter country  must be stupid to drive the Porsche Cayenne TurboS, or Macan. And when I am back in my native european country rich people must be nut to drive Bentley, Bugati, or Lamborghini.

Back on topic, where do you think the Auckland AC match will be held ? :huh:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Thanks for keeping this thread on topic and for your expert point of view, I was surely wrong to drive a Jetta TSI, Audi A4 or Audi A5 S line TFSI; my buddies in this cold snowing winter country  must be stupid to drive the Porsche Cayenne TurboS, or Macan. And when I am back in my native european country rich people must be nut to drive Bentley, Bugati, or Lamborghini.

Back on topic, where do you think the Auckland AC match will be held ? :huh:

 

 

Well if you are happy to drive a car from a company that pumped vast amounts of poison into the atmosphere illegally in order to make a bigger profit, then that's your business.

Will be held in Gulf same as last time. 

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7 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I have no kids, by choice, but do have a 17 yr old newphew from my brother and only sibling.

Bro and I decided that since we can’t afford to keep him in the $B kids Ferarrari crowd at school it’d be fun to do something old-school instead and so he drives a fresh ‘68 Mustang Fastback, with new modern everything to make it safe and fun.

And my nephew, mostly into other cool things besides cars, now loves it. The amazing/surprising thing is how the girls love it too. It is absolutely the coolest car in town, was even the featured focus in the photo’s of the players and cheerleaders after their underdog Lake Washington team creamed across the lake Mercer Island in football recently.

:)

Great, very independent thinking. Thanks for sharing.
 

4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Thanks for keeping this thread on topic and for your expert point of view, I was surely wrong to drive a Jetta TSI, Audi A4 or Audi A5 S line TFSI; my buddies in this cold snowing winter country  must be stupid to drive the Porsche Cayenne TurboS, or Macan. And when I am back in my native european country rich people must be nut to drive Bentley, Bugati, or Lamborghini.

Back on topic, where do you think the Auckland AC match will be held ? :huh:

How is this more "on topic" than car talk? This thread is not about the AC in AKL (there is already a thread for it), but about the NYYC challenge. Tsk...

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The image of Terry Hutchinson on board Fauth's 72-foot Bella Mente just about sums their campaign up.

Last year they mentioned with some pride that instigating a post-race debrief improved their performance.

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On 10/11/2017 at 3:49 PM, jaysper said:

Now that is a fucking cool looking car. Especially in red.

It has a fat arse and needs a bit of a diet to resolve... 8)

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

How disgusting are these cars, even in a slow period. Any idiot can go fast with a car, just has to push one of his 2 feet.

Botin :  "The boats need to have similar speeds and be capable of engaging in typical match-race maneuvers..."

https://www.nyyc.org/news/2222-botin-partners-signed-ac

 

You just catch your train, TC and leave the cool toys to us, OK? ;)

IMG_3075.jpg

Edited by Sailbydate

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16 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

You just catch your train, TC and leave the cool toys to us, OK? ;)

IMG_3075.jpg

One day one of these, in blue, will be mine.  :wub:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What is it?

A German badass:

http://www.vw.com/models/golf-r/

I am obsessed with owning a R.  My buddy had an ''83 Rabbit GTI and let me drive it back in '93.  I"ve been in love ever since.

2lm84s3.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

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20 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

You just catch your train, TC and leave the cool toys to us, OK? ;)

IMG_3075.jpg

With a VW you are forgiven, but a Tornado, or any boat, is cooler than a Ferrari. ;)

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Ok.  We get it. NYCC is not your interest.  Fucking cars on a sailing forum is not my interest.  Time to let go of the GREATEST THREAD HIJACK EVER!

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2 hours ago, pluscount said:

Ok.  We get it. NYCC is not your interest.  Fucking cars on a sailing forum is not my interest.  Time to let go of the GREATEST THREAD HIJACK EVER!

So, what you got instead? 10 things we should know about seed potatoes?

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7 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, what you got instead?

 

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10 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, what you got instead? 10 things we should know about seed potatoes?

In the spirit of charity, i can send you some seed potatoes so you can grow your way out of one of the worst calamities in NZ history:

Chipocalypse: potato shortage in New Zealand sparks crisp crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/16/chipocalypse-potato-shortage-in-new-zealand-sparks-crisp-crisis

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12 hours ago, pluscount said:

Ok.  We get it. NYCC is not your interest.  Fucking cars on a sailing forum is not my interest.  Time to let go of the GREATEST THREAD HIJACK EVER!

Then count yourself lucky that you are witness of history in the making.

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13 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Then count yourself lucky that you are witness of history in the making.

After significant introspection, this.

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2 hours ago, pluscount said:

In the spirit of charity, i can send you some seed potatoes so you can grow your way out of one of the worst calamities in NZ history:

Chipocalypse: potato shortage in New Zealand sparks crisp crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/16/chipocalypse-potato-shortage-in-new-zealand-sparks-crisp-crisis

Ha, ha. Well played, +count.

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Poor old Team NYYC. They bet the bank on black and we have white. They are a bust!

Think about it. They set up a team based around good old TP52 programmes, with conventional leadmine sailors to the fore. Their CEO was pleased to be back in monohulls after making a fool of himself on the AC45's, never getting the hang of the apparent wind sailing, winning the Captain Splash award and certainly not having a clue about foiling. Now these poor leadmine sailors have been handed a beast that is so radical that you need a whole new way of thinking about things. Hutch is not the man to be leading such a campaign and I doubt any of the top helms who you would want would sign up for him.

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46 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Poor old Team NYYC. They bet the bank on black and we have white. They are a bust!

Think about it. They set up a team based around good old TP52 programmes, with conventional leadmine sailors to the fore. Their CEO was pleased to be back in monohulls after making a fool of himself on the AC45's, never getting the hang of the apparent wind sailing, winning the Captain Splash award and certainly not having a clue about foiling. Now these poor leadmine sailors have been handed a beast that is so radical that you need a whole new way of thinking about things. Hutch is not the man to be leading such a campaign and I doubt any of the top helms who you would want would sign up for him.

On the other hand, with a radical new development class, has there EVER been a flatter AC playing field?

I'm pretty sure Botin and his team will have one or two ideas about exploiting the new Rule, when it's announced. 

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18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

On the other hand, with a radical new development class, has there EVER been a flatter AC playing field?

I'm pretty sure Botin and his team will have one or two ideas about exploiting the new Rule, when it's announced. 

All very well having a great boat but you need the right people to sail it and Hutch certainly isn't that person. I was always sceptical about him running an AC campaign, but doing so with boats he doesn't understand and has no affinity with doesn't fill you with confidence. It is clear that they thought that we were going to see a TP52 on steroids and that having some of the best TP52 people as the backbone of the team was a great strategy. How wrong they were, but unlike BAR who also thought the TP52 was a good training boat, the NYYC team doesn't have any seasoned foiling sailors. BAR and ETNZ have the most proven foiling sailors, even if BAR didn't get the boat to match their skills. Everybody else is going to be playing catch up with NYYC needing to do the most. 

Then think about the potential free agents who you would want on your boat. Do you really think Nathan Outteridge would sign to a team run by Hutch? Not a hope, after Outteridge watched Hutch fall apart in front of his own eyes. That sort of thing isn't easy to forget. Who could Hutch attract? Probably Dean Barker. Chris Draper? I expect to see him back at LR. With a more conventional monohull I would have given Hutch and his team a chance, now I say they are on the back foot.

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24 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

All very well having a great boat but you need the right people to sail it and Hutch certainly isn't that person. I was always sceptical about him running an AC campaign, but doing so with boats he doesn't understand and has no affinity with doesn't fill you with confidence. It is clear that they thought that we were going to see a TP52 on steroids and that having some of the best TP52 people as the backbone of the team was a great strategy. How wrong they were, but unlike BAR who also thought the TP52 was a good training boat, the NYYC team doesn't have any seasoned foiling sailors. BAR and ETNZ have the most proven foiling sailors, even if BAR didn't get the boat to match their skills. Everybody else is going to be playing catch up with NYYC needing to do the most. 

Then think about the potential free agents who you would want on your boat. Do you really think Nathan Outteridge would sign to a team run by Hutch? Not a hope, after Outteridge watched Hutch fall apart in front of his own eyes. That sort of thing isn't easy to forget. Who could Hutch attract? Probably Dean Barker. Chris Draper? I expect to see him back at LR. With a more conventional monohull I would have given Hutch and his team a chance, now I say they are on the back foot.

But he's Skipper/CEO for the NYYC Challenge isn't he? He's not the helm, or even on the boat, IIRC. I think there are one or two young up-and-coming moth sailors in America aren't there?

Wait...that's right. They import, Aussies, Kiwis and an occasional, Brit.

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

...BAR and ETNZ have the most proven foiling sailors, even if BAR didn't get the boat to match their skills.

 

I thought you said Artemis had the "best" foiling sailors in AC35 :lol:

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Just now, Xlot said:

Still, not a peep from them ...

I think they're still picking their jaws off the floor!!!B)

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35 minutes ago, Indio said:

I think they're still picking their jaws off the floor!!!B)

I think they are just trying to figure out what to say when they drop out.

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Doubt they are going to waste much energy on PR at this stage. They have a lot of catching up to do.

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2 hours ago, rgeek said:

Doubt they are going to waste much energy on PR at this stage. They have a lot of catching up to do.

What makes you certain they even want to play this game?

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

But he's Skipper/CEO for the NYYC Challenge isn't he? He's not the helm, or even on the boat, IIRC. I think there are one or two young up-and-coming moth sailors in America aren't there?

Wait...that's right. They import, Aussies, Kiwis and an occasional, Brit.

Bora?

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2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

What makes you certain they even want to play this game?

No other club has the AC history the NYYC has. An AC with out the NYYC almost isn't an Americas Cup.

They skipped 1 after a bad campaign and have then been locked out by there being a US defender. Mean while members have been yotting about in M32s.

The question is more; who has reason to think they won't be in?

Will they wipe the egg of their face in public? Now that I doubt.
Will it be fuel to the fire?

 

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10 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

All very well having a great boat but you need the right people to sail it and Hutch certainly isn't that person. I was always sceptical about him running an AC campaign, but doing so with boats he doesn't understand and has no affinity with doesn't fill you with confidence. It is clear that they thought that we were going to see a TP52 on steroids and that having some of the best TP52 people as the backbone of the team was a great strategy. How wrong they were, but unlike BAR who also thought the TP52 was a good training boat, the NYYC team doesn't have any seasoned foiling sailors. BAR and ETNZ have the most proven foiling sailors, even if BAR didn't get the boat to match their skills. Everybody else is going to be playing catch up with NYYC needing to do the most. 

Then think about the potential free agents who you would want on your boat. Do you really think Nathan Outteridge would sign to a team run by Hutch? Not a hope, after Outteridge watched Hutch fall apart in front of his own eyes. That sort of thing isn't easy to forget. Who could Hutch attract? Probably Dean Barker. Chris Draper? I expect to see him back at LR. With a more conventional monohull I would have given Hutch and his team a chance, now I say they are on the back foot.

Remember THutch was winning the match racing in the AC45's when AR ditched him, so no slouch in high speed boats.

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22 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Includes some about Botin

In the new Cup Protocol TP52s are exempt from a ban on ‘Surrogate Yachts’ – only a part of the reason nine TP52s are in build. ROB WEILAND
https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/current-issue/115-content/december-2017/553-surrogate

 

 

 

......such as TP52s used only for the participation in and preparation for their class or any other official regattas

 

That doesn't read to me like an 'exemption' for TP52s - it's just there as an example. The same exemption applies to any class over 12m with a set program as long as that is all you use the boat for .

20m+ tri  inshore series would probably make the most sense :D

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11 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

All very well having a great boat but you need the right people to sail it and Hutch certainly isn't that person. I was always sceptical about him running an AC campaign, but doing so with boats he doesn't understand and has no affinity with doesn't fill you with confidence. It is clear that they thought that we were going to see a TP52 on steroids and that having some of the best TP52 people as the backbone of the team was a great strategy. How wrong they were, but unlike BAR who also thought the TP52 was a good training boat, the NYYC team doesn't have any seasoned foiling sailors. BAR and ETNZ have the most proven foiling sailors, even if BAR didn't get the boat to match their skills. Everybody else is going to be playing catch up with NYYC needing to do the most. 

Then think about the potential free agents who you would want on your boat. Do you really think Nathan Outteridge would sign to a team run by Hutch? Not a hope, after Outteridge watched Hutch fall apart in front of his own eyes. That sort of thing isn't easy to forget. Who could Hutch attract? Probably Dean Barker. Chris Draper? I expect to see him back at LR. With a more conventional monohull I would have given Hutch and his team a chance, now I say they are on the back foot.

You switch teams like you switch underwear. One minute its BAR, then its not, then its Artemis, then its not, then its NYYC, then its not. You have no credibility when it comes to selecting teams. Just pick one and go with it. 

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Seen on Twitter:

Dean Barker is rumoured to be going to sail for the American syndicate in the next #AmericasCup “Expect a press release soon” says Dennis Conner

 

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6 hours ago, sunseeker said:

I think they are just trying to figure out what to say when they drop out.

For what possible reason? This new class of boat offers no real advantage (or disadvantage) to any team.

It will be a bloody difficult boat for ALL the teams to make go fast IMO.

Assuming they were genuine in their intent to challenge and not just flying kites, I expect them to pull on their big boy pants and bring it.

Will be good to see them down here.

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48 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ Reasonably interesting, worth a listen

This podcast by DC is dated Nov 14 but Tom Whidden says a few things about the NYYC Challenger, around halfway into it

http://specialtyproducenetwork.com/episode-20-my-conversation-with-the-latest-inductee-to-the-sailing-hall-of-fame/

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7 hours ago, Indio said:

I thought you said Artemis had the "best" foiling sailors in AC35 :lol:

I still think they did, but ETNZ did a brilliant job of building a better boat and they learnt to sail it really well. Artemis pushed ETNZ harder than any other team despite having a vastly inferior boat.

1 hour ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Remember THutch was winning the match racing in the AC45's when AR ditched him, so no slouch in high speed boats.

Incorrect conclusion. While he was leading the match racing, if you check the conditions during the match racing, it was predominantly sailed in lighter winds. Hutch got fired because he couldn't sail in a breeze and was scaring the whole crew because his reactions in situations were not naturally right and he capsized the AC45 more than anybody else.He might have been good in high speed boats, but only when they were going slowly. His rookie errors were fine in the early days but he was expected to learn from them and improve. He didn't. 

 

1 hour ago, sclarke said:

You switch teams like you switch underwear. One minute its BAR, then its not, then its Artemis, then its not, then its NYYC, then its not. You have no credibility when it comes to selecting teams. Just pick one and go with it. 

More BS. How can you run with a single team when commenting on performance? (BTW, this is the first time I have made a comment about NYYC).

48 minutes ago, jaysper said:

This new class of boat offers no real advantage (or disadvantage) to any team.

I think it does. I believe that ETNZ have a significant advantage, although i don't believe they chose the design because of that. My reasoning is due to what they learnt about foil control systems and also the simulation systems they developed. Both of these give them a head start over everybody else. New teams need to develop this sort of technology while any other existing team needs to play catch up.

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30 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I still think they did, but ETNZ did a brilliant job of building a better boat and they learnt to sail it really well. Artemis pushed ETNZ harder than any other team despite having a vastly inferior boat.

Incorrect conclusion. While he was leading the match racing, if you check the conditions during the match racing, it was predominantly sailed in lighter winds. Hutch got fired because he couldn't sail in a breeze and was scaring the whole crew because his reactions in situations were not naturally right and he capsized the AC45 more than anybody else.He might have been good in high speed boats, but only when they were going slowly. His rookie errors were fine in the early days but he was expected to learn from them and improve. He didn't. 

 

More BS. How can you run with a single team when commenting on performance? (BTW, this is the first time I have made a comment about NYYC).

I think it does. I believe that ETNZ have a significant advantage, although i don't believe they chose the design because of that. My reasoning is due to what they learnt about foil control systems and also the simulation systems they developed. Both of these give them a head start over everybody else. New teams need to develop this sort of technology while any other existing team needs to play catch up.

If you look at it critically, an argument can be made that ETNZ would have had an advantage regardless of the boat chosen because they have a high performing track record in pretty much any style of boat.

 

* Foilers (regardless of type) - Tick.

* Big arse beamy monos ala TP52 - Tick.

* More streamlined monos ala IACC - Tick.

 

If they had chosen to stay with 50s, the advantage would have been YUGE!

This way, much of the advantage they have has been mitigated.

But yes, the defender picks the boat and always has some unavoidable advantage because they have earlier knowledge of the boat design.

Short of having an independent body design the class rules (will never happen), this is about as good as it gets IMO.

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^ The AC72 had a lot of folks involved early, including M&M. I forget how the AC62/50 came about but this AC75 has by all accounts been kept to just ETNZ and whoever-all at LR.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

If you look at it critically, an argument can be made that ETNZ would have had an advantage regardless of the boat chosen because they have a high performing track record in pretty much any style of boat.

 

* Foilers (regardless of type) - Tick.

* Big arse beamy monos ala TP52 - Tick.

* More streamlined monos ala IACC - Tick.

 

If they had chosen to stay with 50s, the advantage would have been YUGE!

This way, much of the advantage they have has been mitigated.

But yes, the defender picks the boat and always has some unavoidable advantage because they have earlier knowledge of the boat design.

Short of having an independent body design the class rules (will never happen), this is about as good as it gets IMO.

Not sure I agree. There are design teams out there who have very sophisticated modelling capability for conventional boats such as big arse monos or even streamlined oones which use conventional foils, which is something ETNZ doesn't have at the moment. What they did 10 or more years ago is no longer relevant. I don't think they have any designers left from that era. Where ETNZ leads the world is in the simulation systems they developed for foiling related sailing and their control systems. Take out foiling and their advantage disappears. I am nopt suggesting that they wouldn't do great conventional monohulls, but they currently have no systems or simulation software aimed at that area, so why would they have any lead in that? 

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29 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Not sure I agree. There are design teams out there who have very sophisticated modelling capability for conventional boats such as big arse monos or even streamlined oones which use conventional foils, which is something ETNZ doesn't have at the moment. What they did 10 or more years ago is no longer relevant. I don't think they have any designers left from that era. Where ETNZ leads the world is in the simulation systems they developed for foiling related sailing and their control systems. Take out foiling and their advantage disappears. I am nopt suggesting that they wouldn't do great conventional monohulls, but they currently have no systems or simulation software aimed at that area, so why would they have any lead in that? 

I disagree that they don't have any systems or simulation software aimed at a conventional monohull. They would have tested conventional concepts leading up to the foiling concept they released a couple of weeks ago. Bernasconi stated they had tested concepts over a broad spectrum from conventional monohull concepts, to foil assist to fully foiling concepts. So somewhere during the design phase of the AC75 they would have used simulation software aimed at conventional monohulls. 

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Interesting to see you could build some 11.99m boats as surrogate design boats. If I was a serious team I'd have a parallel early design path to get one of these built as soon as possible; foils to be sorted out later sort of thing. The dynamics of the new boats are so far different from anything out there that time in a 1/2 scale boat will be very valuable.

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Not sure I agree. There are design teams out there who have very sophisticated modelling capability for conventional boats such as big arse monos or even streamlined oones which use conventional foils, which is something ETNZ doesn't have at the moment. What they did 10 or more years ago is no longer relevant. I don't think they have any designers left from that era. Where ETNZ leads the world is in the simulation systems they developed for foiling related sailing and their control systems. Take out foiling and their advantage disappears. I am nopt suggesting that they wouldn't do great conventional monohulls, but they currently have no systems or simulation software aimed at that area, so why would they have any lead in that? 

Hmm, the last AC to be run in monos was versus Alinghi where they had the 2nd fastest boat and it was a pretty close run race.

I am sure they have those tools still somewhere that could be brought out of the closet and dusted off as a starting point, albeit a fairly crude one.

However, as I've said before I don't think it is possible for the defender to have ZERO advantage over the rest of the field with regards to boat design, no matter how egalitarian they are unless they completely 100% outsource the class rule to a 3rd party with strict instructions NOT to release details to ANYONE (including the defender) until it is ready for publication.

Clearly no defender will ever do that, because they have an agenda just as ETNZ did with this class rule. From my point of view, I liked their agenda but am not convinced they actually met the stated objectives of that agenda.

 

But back to the story, I think ETNZ have done as much as they reasonably could to ensure a level playing field in this matter.

I don't think that their experience in foiling would offer them such a huge advantage over the others and next to nil over Artemis, GTF, Oracle and BAR because the foil design is so completely different and all the other teams have a pretty damned good idea how their "auto-pilot" worked. They may take a year or more to replicate the auto pilot, but you would expect achieving that to be a relatively trivial task. All you need is an expert controls theoretician and someone to implement said control scheme in a PLC or similar.

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9 hours ago, rgeek said:

No other club has the AC history the NYYC has. An AC with out the NYYC almost isn't an Americas Cup.

They skipped 1 after a bad campaign and have then been locked out by there being a US defender. Mean while members have been yotting about in M32s.

The question is more; who has reason to think they won't be in?

Will they wipe the egg of their face in public? Now that I doubt.
Will it be fuel to the fire?

 

You make me laugh. You seem to think the members of NYYC sit in the model room jerking off talking about the America’s Cup like a bunch of Republican members of Congress who sext their whores. 

99.9999% of the members of NYYC don’t give a wet shit about the AC. Ken Read and Whidden care because North might make some money, and at the end of the day that’s all Devos and Hutch care about too.  Hap Fauth is just the bitch in this deal. 

Let the kiwis and the 12 people in this forum that seem to think any of this means fuck all to the rest of the sport jerk themselves into a frenzy over a freak boat.

This isn’t about NYYC, it’s just about one billionaire who got a millionaire to help split costs for a team that would promote a sail brand. We’ll see if they really end up being serious. Right now all they have done is issue one press release. 

 

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

I disagree that they don't have any systems or simulation software aimed at a conventional monohull. They would have tested conventional concepts leading up to the foiling concept they released a couple of weeks ago. Bernasconi stated they had tested concepts over a broad spectrum from conventional monohull concepts, to foil assist to fully foiling concepts. So somewhere during the design phase of the AC75 they would have used simulation software aimed at conventional monohulls. 

As usual, you read what you want to read but never what i said. Where do i say that the don't have ANY systems or simulation software aimed at conventional monohulls?  What I said is that they do not have the same level of highly sophisticated software that a specialist designer might have. They simply wouldn't spend the time and money to develop that sort of thing when they have no need for it because they could test the ideas well enough without it.

Where ETNZ leads the world at the moment is in design, prediction and simulation software plus control systems aimed at foiling boats. When it comes to "conventional" boats, they do not have the same lead in technology.

1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Hmm, the last AC to be run in monos was versus Alinghi where they had the 2nd fastest boat and it was a pretty close run race.

I am sure they have those tools still somewhere that could be brought out of the closet and dusted off as a starting point, albeit a fairly crude one.

Come on! That was over 10 years ago. I have more sophisticated design software than that on my laptop, which is more powerful than the computers they were using then (Moores Law and all that).

8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

However, as I've said before I don't think it is possible for the defender to have ZERO advantage over the rest of the field with regards to boat design, no matter how egalitarian they are unless they completely 100% outsource the class rule to a 3rd party with strict instructions NOT to release details to ANYONE (including the defender) until it is ready for publication.

Clearly no defender will ever do that, because they have an agenda just as ETNZ did with this class rule. From my point of view, I liked their agenda but am not convinced they actually met the stated objectives of that agenda.

Although I don't have a problem with what ETNZ is doing, your history is a little shaky because GGYC/Oracle Racing did completely outsource the rule for the AC72 to US Sailing and Morrelli and Melvin. They were provided with a briefing paper by the defender but the rule was independently developed. The draft rule was circulated to everybody at the same time, including Oracle Racing. M&M subsequently went on to work for ETNZ. The defender chose that route for developing the rule because one of their big criticisms of Alinghi was that they developed a rule giving themselves a huge head start over all the other teams.

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22 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I don't think that their experience in foiling would offer them such a huge advantage over the others and next to nil over Artemis, GTF, Oracle and BAR because the foil design is so completely different and all the other teams have a pretty damned good idea how their "auto-pilot" worked. They may take a year or more to replicate the auto pilot, but you would expect achieving that to be a relatively trivial task. All you need is an expert controls theoretician and someone to implement said control scheme in a PLC or similar.

In ‘the little movie’ as Cammas put it, that model appears to be fully ‘sailing’ which suggests a great deal of sophistication having been already developed. I give them credit for how fast the all-new design is coming out but unless they are also sharing these models out then, as BA pointed out yet again this week, this Defender may be self-dealing a bit here.

Given how radical this boat is, I also wonder if teams would now much prefer to be allowed to two-boat test. 

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14 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

As usual, you read what you want to read but never what i said. Where do i say that the don't have ANY systems or simulation software aimed at conventional monohulls?  What I said is that they do not have the same level of highly sophisticated software that a specialist designer might have. They simply wouldn't spend the time and money to develop that sort of thing when they have no need for it because they could test the ideas well enough without it.

Where ETNZ leads the world at the moment is in design, prediction and simulation software plus control systems aimed at foiling boats. When it comes to "conventional" boats, they do not have the same lead in technology.

Come on! That was over 10 years ago. I have more sophisticated design software than that on my laptop, which is more powerful than the computers they were using then (Moores Law and all that).

Although I don't have a problem with what ETNZ is doing, your history is a little shaky because GGYC/Oracle Racing did completely outsource the rule for the AC72 to US Sailing and Morrelli and Melvin. They were provided with a briefing paper by the defender but the rule was independently developed. The draft rule was circulated to everybody at the same time, including Oracle Racing. M&M subsequently went on to work for ETNZ. The defender chose that route for developing the rule because one of their big criticisms of Alinghi was that they developed a rule giving themselves a huge head start over all the other teams.

As usual when you get quoted you try and say "No, I didn't say that", even though you did. Quote: And this is a copy and paste from your own post: "I am nopt suggesting that they wouldn't do great conventional monohulls, but they currently have no systems or simulation software aimed at that area" You said EXACTLY that. There was no "they do not have the same level of highly sophisticated software that a specialist designer might have" Those are 2 completely different sentences! Like I said, your credibility is zero.

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28 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

As usual, you read what you want to read but never what i said. Where do i say that the don't have ANY systems or simulation software aimed at conventional monohulls?  What I said is that they do not have the same level of highly sophisticated software that a specialist designer might have. They simply wouldn't spend the time and money to develop that sort of thing when they have no need for it because they could test the ideas well enough without it.

Where ETNZ leads the world at the moment is in design, prediction and simulation software plus control systems aimed at foiling boats. When it comes to "conventional" boats, they do not have the same lead in technology.

Come on! That was over 10 years ago. I have more sophisticated design software than that on my laptop, which is more powerful than the computers they were using then (Moores Law and all that).

Although I don't have a problem with what ETNZ is doing, your history is a little shaky because GGYC/Oracle Racing did completely outsource the rule for the AC72 to US Sailing and Morrelli and Melvin. They were provided with a briefing paper by the defender but the rule was independently developed. The draft rule was circulated to everybody at the same time, including Oracle Racing. M&M subsequently went on to work for ETNZ. The defender chose that route for developing the rule because one of their big criticisms of Alinghi was that they developed a rule giving themselves a huge head start over all the other teams.

As you can see, towards the bottom, it was Morelli and Melvin who wrote the AC72 Class Rule. Oracle and Golden Gate wanted to be removed from the rule writing part of it, so they outsourced it to Morelli and Melvin, who wrote the rule. Your credibility now less than Zero.

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/pete-melvin-americas-cup-multhull-decision-11005.php

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27 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

As usual, you read what you want to read but never what i said. Where do i say that the don't have ANY systems or simulation software aimed at conventional monohulls?  What I said is that they do not have the same level of highly sophisticated software that a specialist designer might have. They simply wouldn't spend the time and money to develop that sort of thing when they have no need for it because they could test the ideas well enough without it.

Where ETNZ leads the world at the moment is in design, prediction and simulation software plus control systems aimed at foiling boats. When it comes to "conventional" boats, they do not have the same lead in technology.

Come on! That was over 10 years ago. I have more sophisticated design software than that on my laptop, which is more powerful than the computers they were using then (Moores Law and all that).

Although I don't have a problem with what ETNZ is doing, your history is a little shaky because GGYC/Oracle Racing did completely outsource the rule for the AC72 to US Sailing and Morrelli and Melvin. They were provided with a briefing paper by the defender but the rule was independently developed. The draft rule was circulated to everybody at the same time, including Oracle Racing. M&M subsequently went on to work for ETNZ. The defender chose that route for developing the rule because one of their big criticisms of Alinghi was that they developed a rule giving themselves a huge head start over all the other teams.

IIRC (and I may not) they still stipulated the broad brief including wing sail and catamaran.

Given that the 72s weren't meant to foil, I would suggest it put Orifice in the box seat and ETNZ should NEVER have got near them.

But it is difficult to criticize them TOO MUCH for selecting a concept that they had a massive advantage with.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

As you can see, towards the bottom, it was Morelli and Melvin who wrote the AC72 Class Rule. Oracle and Golden Gate wanted to be removed from the rule writing part of it, so they outsourced it to Morelli and Melvin, who wrote the rule. Your credibility now less than Zero.

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/pete-melvin-americas-cup-multhull-decision-11005.php

You really cannot read English, because that is exactly what I said. US Sailing were asked to supervise so that no one team got any information before the others. So fuck off and troll somebody else.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

IIRC (and I may not) they still stipulated the broad brief including wing sail and catamaran.

Given that the 72s weren't meant to foil, I would suggest it put Orifice in the box seat and ETNZ should NEVER have got near them.

But it is difficult to criticize them TOO MUCH for selecting a concept that they had a massive advantage with.

I have been very critical of OR over the years but WRT the rule development, they were the best of all recent defenders. The story of how they went for the cat rather than a monhull is pretty interesting and I was in Valencia when they were testing both cats and monos to see what was going to work, they had 2 Extreme 40's and 2 RC44's they were using, developing some of the camera technology at the same time.

They also spent the money on developing both a monhull rule and the AC72 rule at the same time. Some believe that it was all a smoke screen, but as it wasn't public knowledge at the time that both rules were being developed, i have to assume that Oracle hadn't made up their minds and the implication from everybody I know says that they announced the cat as soon as they really made the decision. 

I think that choosing a wing played into their hands a bit,. because of their experience with wings on Dogzilla, but I also think that to have gone with soft sails would have been highly criticised as being well behind the times. If they had really wanted an advantage, I suspect they would have gone with a tri, but they didn't.

I also question your comment that the AC72's weren't meant to foil. M&M wrote the rule and I thought they are on record as saying the rule was never designed to stop foiling. I also believe that it was M&M who got ETNZ to look at it, so they must have been thinking about it when writing the rule.

 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

You really cannot read English, because that is exactly what I said. US Sailing were asked to supervise so that no one team got any information before the others. So fuck off and troll somebody else.

Oh so now you wanna know exactly what you said, makes a change. You were very quiet about your other post where you claimed you didn't say something when you actually did. As per the DoG, the Defender and Challenger of record decide the class of boat to be raced. Thats all that matters.

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44 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I have been very critical of OR over the years but WRT the rule development, they were the best of all recent defenders. The story of how they went for the cat rather than a monhull is pretty interesting and I was in Valencia when they were testing both cats and monos to see what was going to work, they had 2 Extreme 40's and 2 RC44's they were using, developing some of the camera technology at the same time.

They also spent the money on developing both a monhull rule and the AC72 rule at the same time. Some believe that it was all a smoke screen, but as it wasn't public knowledge at the time that both rules were being developed, i have to assume that Oracle hadn't made up their minds and the implication from everybody I know says that they announced the cat as soon as they really made the decision. 

I think that choosing a wing played into their hands a bit,. because of their experience with wings on Dogzilla, but I also think that to have gone with soft sails would have been highly criticised as being well behind the times. If they had really wanted an advantage, I suspect they would have gone with a tri, but they didn't.

I also question your comment that the AC72's weren't meant to foil. M&M wrote the rule and I thought they are on record as saying the rule was never designed to stop foiling. I also believe that it was M&M who got ETNZ to look at it, so they must have been thinking about it when writing the rule.

 

So I will cede to your knowledge regarding monos vs cats and to be fair the writing of the rules is not what I have been critical of them about but rather the rule CHANGES with the shortening of the boats being absolutely disgraceful. 

With regards to foiling I remember vividly Dalton saying repeatedly that the 72s were NOT meant to foil and I believe (IIRC) that the rule against flaps on foils and rudders was the mechanism meant to prevent that.

That said, I've never accused Dalton of being 100% honest,  but the rule limitation does seem to support his statement. 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

M&M wrote the rule and I thought they are on record as saying the rule was never designed to stop foiling. I also believe that it was M&M who got ETNZ to look at it, so they must have been thinking about it when writing the rule.

I don't think that is correct .. the only record that I can recall was M&M giving credit to ETNZ for developing the foiling system.  M&M were employed by ETNZ because of their experience with catamarans rather than foiling.

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Regarding a helmsman, Bora Gulari seems to know a thing or two about foiling moths.  Has he been claimed by a team yet?

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12 minutes ago, pwormwood said:

Regarding a helmsman, Bora Gulari seems to know a thing or two about foiling moths.  Has he been claimed by a team yet?

When Clean asked him a few months ago in a podcast before his accident, Bora did indicate he was in discussion with a potential team; but nothing has been announced yet that’s been posted so far. 

 

Remotely similar subject (NYYC crew) from a Gtran of http://www.lastampa.it/2017/11/23/sport/vela/nel-la-nuova-sfida-luna-rossaazzurra-vIv6NWAKuAfS1UhJzMsHHK/pagina.html

Announcements

Quantum Racing is also the nucleus on which the next American challenge to the America's Cup launched by the New York Yacht Club (which wants the Italian-Argentine Maciel Cicchetti, Azzurra trimmer and currently engaged in the Volvo Ocean Race with Brunel team).

 

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On 11/24/2017 at 8:18 AM, Team_GBR said:

I think it does. I believe that ETNZ have a significant advantage, ...

1

We agree on something!! The foil design and control systems should give ETNZ an advantage over the Challengers, although some LR members who joined ETNZ in AC35 and have returned to LR may have some IP information they can utilise. Maybe this was why Bertelli reportedly dragged his heels on the new AC75..

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Alt_ETNZDay%201%20013.jpg

LR’s 3rd-generation AC45S Pirhana being launched by ETNZ in Auckland.

It was, like the coming AC75...

Battery powered.

It was also designed by Botin, now with QR for AC36.

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New York wants our America’s Cup back

Former Team NZ tactician Terry Hutchinson is bringing the New York Yacht Club back into the America’s Cup fray. He tells Suzanne McFadden what he thinks of the “beast” of a boat he’ll sail on, and why he must make this Cup count.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/11/29/64301/new-york-wants-our-americas-cup-back

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  ^ At the same time, following construction of new TP52 and maxi - not impressed

 

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I am shocked Hutch thinks he will be on the boat. These are going to be as much a young persons boat as the cats. Whiloe he was OK on the cats in light weather, the reason why he was sacked by Artemis was he was scary helming in any decent breeze as he didn't adapt to how you have to sail these apparent wind boats. Surely they aren't going to make the crew so big that you can have an oldie standing at the back calling the shots like in the pre-multi days. 

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8 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

I am shocked Hutch thinks he will be on the boat. These are going to be as much a young persons boat as the cats. Whiloe he was OK on the cats in light weather, the reason why he was sacked by Artemis was he was scary helming in any decent breeze as he didn't adapt to how you have to sail these apparent wind boats. Surely they aren't going to make the crew so big that you can have an oldie standing at the back calling the shots like in the pre-multi days. 

Yes, he looks to be strategist again this season on both new Botin boats, TP52 and Maxi 72, he could be a difficult talent to top and I doubt he just stands around on those boats either.

Anyway, cool article, plenty of go-forward enthusiasm.

So, is he looking forward to this new sailing experience? “Absolutely. Without question. You know this thing is going to be a beast. And I’m excited by it… there’s something very cool about it.”

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