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10 minutes ago, uflux said:

You can certainly see a slight look of desperation in that interview. Which is an unfortunate position for AM to be in. 

Yes, both TH had GS are getting a touch desperate to have assurances around dates, understandably so. One of them used the word ‘Chaotic.’
 

AC36-wise, well it has the potential to badly tilt the competition if those dates go late, while ETNZ just sails and continues on developing at will. 

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45 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Sorry - how does domestic tourism within the EU relate to the AC?

Okay, not domestic tourism to Italy but on the subject of inevitable international visits at some point:

I think it was Simmer who said in one of his recent interviews that there’s an agreement between ETNZ and LR (did they say it’s even in the Protocol?) that under certain circumstances the Match would instead be held in Italy. He was answering a question about if it got postponed to a time in the northern hemisphere summer, a Deed-governing requirement. 

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

It doesn’t have to be a NZ yacht club. It could still be one of the challenging yacht clubs, just do what Connor did in 95. Pick the fastest boat, put a team together consisting of all members who are able to enter NZ (Kiwi and Aus) there would most likely be enough. Amend the protocol to allow 2 boat testing and get it on.

 

It would have to be one of the current challenging yacht clubs, it would have to be their yacht, and the crew would have to be nationals of that country. The current challenger of record would have to step down so that a new challenger of record could be named, unless they are the boat/club selected. As the Protocol is currently written, they would have to hold a CSS in NZ to select the final challenger.

The current protocol could be amended to accommodate some of these things, if the Defender, the current COR, or the "new" COR agreed to it. What do you think the chances are of the other Challengers walking away from their half-billion-dollar total investment to give one of the other challengers the chance to take the Cup to their home club might be?

In 1995, whatever boat won the Defender selection trials still had to represent the San Diego Yacht Club in the Match, since they were the Defender, so it didn't really matter what boat DC chose. All the US boats met the CiC requirements of the DoG.

In the scenario you propose, there's a reasonable chance one of the other Cup trustees might file suit saying that the changes made by RYZNYS had violated their fiduciary responsibilities under the DoG. RNZYS might be ordered to forfeit the Cup to the last holder, which  would be GGYC. That would be a bitter pill to swallow.

Think it couldn't happen? Think what happened in the AC the last two times the Cup ended up in the courts. Who would have thought it would end that way, after months/years of litigation in both instances?

I can see lawyers with dollar signs in their eyes.

Maybe just better to hope that somehow, the Cup goes on as scheduled.

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27 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Yes and ironically NZ quite possibly could be one of the first to open :-)

Correct.

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12 minutes ago, accnick said:

Maybe just better to hope that somehow, the Cup goes on as scheduled.

‘As scheduled’ is key for sure, but so is this problem with if and when Challs can even get to the venue. And on that front Simmer was a little ‘cagey’ when responding to the fact that AM already made the ‘strategic’ decision to send a boat in that direction. 
 

But it’s not like Ineos are looking too brilliant right now either, given that it was shortly after they bailed out of Cagliari that (coincidence?) LR got a dispensation to go ahead and  carry on sailing.

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19 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Okay, not domestic tourism to Italy but on the subject of inevitable international visits at some point:

I think it was Simmer who said in one of his recent interviews that there’s an agreement between ETNZ and LR (did they say it’s even in the Protocol?) that under certain circumstances the Match would instead be held in Italy. He was answering a question about if it got postponed to a time in the northern hemisphere summer, a Deed-governing requirement. 

Envisioned in the prot:

4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.

And ironically NZ could be one of the last country to reopen its borders.

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Envisioned in the prot:

4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.

And ironically NZ could be one of the last country to reopen its borders.

How well has it worked for countries like the US that didn't close their borders?

There are 30 open COVID-19 cases currently in NZ. The last recorded case was almost a week ago. 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/05/coronavirus-no-new-cases-of-covid-19-in-new-zealand3.html

One thing is pretty certain is that when AC teams arrive in Auckland, they'll be in one of the safest places from COVID-19 on the planet.

 

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4 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

How well has it worked for countries like the US that didn't close their borders?

There are 30 open COVID-19 cases currently in NZ. The last recorded case was almost a week ago. 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/05/coronavirus-no-new-cases-of-covid-19-in-new-zealand3.html

One thing is pretty certain is that when AC teams arrive in Auckland, they'll be in one of the safest places from COVID-19 on the planet.

 

^^ Yes, before they arrive. The irony is that the least case you the more you want to close the border until a vaccine, if any.

I guess the NZ gov will let AC teams get in with strict restrictions, but when ? If we believe the brits nobody knows yet.

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48 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Envisioned in the prot:

4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.

And ironically NZ could be one of the last country to reopen its borders.

Thanks, that could well be what Simmer was referring to. 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ Yes, before they arrive. The irony is that the least case you the more you want to close the border until a vaccine, if any.

I guess the NZ gov will let AC teams get in with strict restrictions, but when ? If we believe the brits nobody knows yet.

Within weeks NZ is well placed to be COVID-19 free. Keeping the place free is a bit easier than when you have to be constantly monitoring outbreaks within the population as well.

The time it will take the US, UK & Italy to be in a similar position might be next year.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, both TH had GS are getting a touch desperate to have assurances around dates, understandably so. One of them used the word ‘Chaotic.’
 

AC36-wise, well it has the potential to badly tilt the competition if those dates go late, while ETNZ just sails and continues on developing at will. 

Of course two months ago everyone was discussing how behind the rest ETNZ would be from their AC75 being on a container ship. Each team makes their choices and then has to live with it. If anyone is to blame for AM predicament. It’s the US governments inept response to the virus.

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10 hours ago, Xlot said:

!!!

Visa situation not helpful if your schedule for success means every day (or hour even) lost costs your team. It's hard enough in an Olympic campaign let alone an AC 75.

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

Of course two months ago everyone was discussing how behind the rest ETNZ would be from their AC75 being on a container ship. Each team makes their choices and then has to live with it. If anyone is to blame for AM predicament. It’s the US governments inept response to the virus.

That may or may not be true but the point of the post you responded to had to do with if AC36 can be a decent, fair competition or not. ETNZ is on a roll from here on out with boat development as things currently stand. Great for them, of course..
 

If no Challs can get a fair shot well then guess what? They won’t bother showing up, is what TH basically said in at least 3 interviews this past week. The next 4 weeks is crunch time for the event happening in Feb and March. Your guess is as good as mine about if NZ will decide in time or not.

They need need to agree on a fair Cup or not bother until later.

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That may or may not be true but the point of the post you responded to had to do with if AC36 can be a decent, fair competition or not. 
 

If no Challs can’t get a fair shot well then guess what? They won’t bother showing up, is what TH basically said in at least 3 interviews this past week. The next 4 weeks is crunch time for the event happening in Feb and March. Your guess is as good as mine about if NZ will decide in time or not.

Yes the competition is fair....The world is not

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

AC36-wise, well it has the potential to badly tilt the competition if those dates go late, while ETNZ just sails and continues on developing at will. 

Exactly. The advantage to keeping everyone else in the dark means you get to do whatever you want to do - in the dark as well. TH (and the other challengers) has every right to demand a decision one way or another.

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7 minutes ago, uflux said:

Yes the competition is fair....The world is not

What’s your point? Do you honestly want a Defender to go down that path in AC History? 
 

The only honorable path is to face a real, well-prepared Challenge since it is otherwise just a foregone conclusion and a farce. There’s no pride to be had out of that, in fact it’s to the contrary. 

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3 hours ago, accnick said:

In the scenario you propose, there's a reasonable chance one of the other Cup trustees might file suit saying that the changes made by RYZNYS had violated their fiduciary responsibilities under the DoG. RNZYS might be ordered to forfeit the Cup to the last holder, which  would be GGYC. That would be a bitter pill to swallow.

Think it couldn't happen? Think what happened in the AC the last two times the Cup ended up in the courts. Who would have thought it would end that way, after months/years of litigation in both instances?

Precisely. We're inching that direction with every day that passes.

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Am looking forward to hearing from CoR LR on this subject but since the strength of their management already got shot-canned it’s hard to guess the new posture.

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15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

What’s your point? Do you honestly want a Defender to go down that path in AC History? 
 

The only honorable path is to face a real, well-prepared Challenge since it is otherwise just a foregone conclusion and a farce. There’s no pride to be had out of that, in fact it’s to the contrary. 

This is no farce. It’s not caused by anyone. 
if the AC needs to be postponed. Yes some of the challengers will fold (even ETNZ might fold). That is simply the reality of life at the moment. In the same way that many businesses will go out of business due to the pandemic. 
This is no good guy verse bad guy BS in any of this (as much as our resident troll would like it to be). Life will carry on and the AC will survive to be sailed another day. 

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3 hours ago, accnick said:

 

It would have to be one of the current challenging yacht clubs, it would have to be their yacht, and the crew would have to be nationals of that country. The current challenger of record would have to step down so that a new challenger of record could be named, unless they are the boat/club selected. As the Protocol is currently written, they would have to hold a CSS in NZ to select the final challenger.

The current protocol could be amended to accommodate some of these things, if the Defender, the current COR, or the "new" COR agreed to it. What do you think the chances are of the other Challengers walking away from their half-billion-dollar total investment to give one of the other challengers the chance to take the Cup to their home club might be?

In 1995, whatever boat won the Defender selection trials still had to represent the San Diego Yacht Club in the Match, since they were the Defender, so it didn't really matter what boat DC chose. All the US boats met the CiC requirements of the DoG.

In the scenario you propose, there's a reasonable chance one of the other Cup trustees might file suit saying that the changes made by RYZNYS had violated their fiduciary responsibilities under the DoG. RNZYS might be ordered to forfeit the Cup to the last holder, which  would be GGYC. That would be a bitter pill to swallow.

Think it couldn't happen? Think what happened in the AC the last two times the Cup ended up in the courts. Who would have thought it would end that way, after months/years of litigation in both instances?

I can see lawyers with dollar signs in their eyes.

Maybe just better to hope that somehow, the Cup goes on as scheduled.

No court is going to award the cup to anyone else...COVID will legally be considered an act of god. Therefore outside ETNZs control. The Cup is not going anywhere 

5B5F73A3-D2A3-460E-8477-CBE7EBDCAEF8.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, uflux said:

This is no farce. It’s not caused by anyone. 
if the AC needs to be postponed. Yes some of the challengers will fold (even ETNZ might fold). That is simply the reality of life at the moment. In the same way that many businesses will go out of business due to the pandemic. 
This is no good guy verse bad guy BS in any of this (as much as our resident troll would like it to be). Life will carry on and the AC will survive to be sailed another day. 

Agreed, nobody’s fault for this situation but, again, it’s hard to imagine RNZYS or ETNZ wanting to hold a lop-sided event. There’s simply no honor in it, only potential dishonor.

If you look at the AP decision on Cagliari (and by the way, where is the one to deal with the Portsmouth one?) then perhaps that ‘force majeur’ decision by the AC36 AP leads to an AC36 precedent regarding cancelations and postponements?

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed, nobody’s fault for this situation but, again, it’s hard to imagine RNZYS or ETNZ wanting to hold a lop-sided event. There’s simply no honor in it, only potential dishonor.

If you look at the AP decision on Cagliari (and by the way, where is the one to deal with the Portsmouth one?) then perhaps that ‘force majeur’ decision by the AC36 AP leads to an AC36 precedent regarding cancelations and postponements?

Do the voices in your head have names? The ones making you think ETNZ are going to sail around alone in NZ and call it a victory?

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9 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Do the voices in your head have names? The ones making you think ETNZ are going to sail around alone in NZ and call it a victory?

They obviously won’t sail around alone, :)

The real question is about what they will choose to do if there is no realistic competition. Will they race a syndicate with (say for exaggeration to emphasize the point) only a month’s chance to set up and try to prepare for a Match? What is the ‘honorable’ way forward under that scenario?

A Judge Judy re-run would attract as many viewers and be just about as classy. 
 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

What is the ‘honorable’ way forward under that scenario?
 

I dunno mate, but we sure as shit won't be looking to the Americans for any provenance on that front... 

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33 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

I dunno mate, but we sure as shit won't be looking to the Americans for any provenance on that front... 

Oh, the ‘but they did it too’ argument? :D

More seriously: Yes, ETNZ rocked up fairly late in both AC34 SF and in AC35 Bermuda but in those cases it was by their own choice. They as a Defender can’t reasonably use their own ‘provenance on that front’ to expect other Challengers into that same strategy.

Look, both TH and GS made headlines this week with their issues about having no assurances for if or when entering NZ. Both made reasonable arguments for needing that direction by mid-June. If (IF) they don’t get it on that time-scale well then we may as well yak about alternatives, right? Got any more pressing AC issues to discuss than what they are bringing up? 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

A Judge Judy re-run would attract as many viewers and be just about as classy.

giphy.gif

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This is TH throwing a shot across the Emiratis' legal bow (which is underwater as usual)...from translation...

Is there room in a corner of your mind for the hope of a postponement of the races so as to allow you and your team to better prepare the boat and therefore increase the chances of winning?
“For the moment I would say no, because there is no element indicating that the races can be postponed. We have our own strategy, we still have a lot of work to do and we will continue to develop it. If there was a postponement, then I would have to review things, of course. If these circumstances arise, I think all the teams should agree on new parameters and above all on how to manage the costs of this situation in order not to create imbalances ".

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9 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

This is TH throwing a shot across the Emiratis' legal bow (which is underwater as usual)...from translation...

Is there room in a corner of your mind for the hope of a postponement of the races so as to allow you and your team to better prepare the boat and therefore increase the chances of winning?
“For the moment I would say no, because there is no element indicating that the races can be postponed. We have our own strategy, we still have a lot of work to do and we will continue to develop it. If there was a postponement, then I would have to review things, of course. If these circumstances arise, I think all the teams should agree on new parameters and above all on how to manage the costs of this situation in order not to create imbalances ".

ETNZ won’t be touched legally for what is legally an act of god. Keep dreaming

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5 minutes ago, uflux said:

ETNZ won’t be touched legally for what is legally an act of god. Keep dreaming

I think you'll find that it's not Covid-19 per se that is the issue, it's the various lockdowns and travel restrictions imposed by governments, so more likely that issues will be treated "legally" as force majeure.

Now if an earthquake was to level the team bases 1 month before the event, that would be an "act of god".

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I highly doubt that ETNZ will be dragged into court ... it would have to come from the COR after any mediation has taken place, and it would be against the NZ govt for not allowing access

considering the COR's own govt stopped access for an event and no one has sued them I don't see it happening

 

realistically:

the teams can ship/fly their gear here any time and it will sit around until they can hire people to unload

the NZ govt will allow special dispensation for teams/workers at some point in the near future (probably at the same time as the Tasman bubble) who will have to follow strict testing / 14day lockdown.

 

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You obviously don't grasp the situation, flux.

9 minutes ago, RobG said:

I think you'll find that it's not Covid-19 per se that is the issue, it's the various lockdowns and travel restrictions imposed by governments, so more likely that issues will be treated "legally" as force majeure.

Now if an earthquake was to level the team bases 1 month before the event, that would be an "act of god".

That's right. More importantly is the issue of actions taken (or neglected to be taken) by the Emiratis in light of their obligations - force majeure or no.

Of course, good luck reasoning with these KiWhingersTM who are always fully convinced they know something when they very clearly don't. Kind of like toddlers.

(cue up the toddler retort in 3...2...1....)

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3 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

I highly doubt that ETNZ will be dragged into court ... it would have to come from the COR after any mediation has taken place, and it would be against the NZ govt for not allowing access.

 

Considered the history I don't think the D can expect any leniency from the CoR.

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7 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

You obviously don't grasp the situation, flux.

That's right. More importantly is the issue of actions taken (or neglected to be taken) by the Emiratis in light of their obligations - force majeure or no.

Of course, good luck reasoning with these KiWhingersTM who are always fully convinced they know something when they very clearly don't. Kind of like toddlers.

Ah so ETNZ invoking a force majeure clause  (as opposed to an act of god clause)  helps your how??? Lol :D

It still essentially acts as a legal out due to circumstances outside their control. The exceptional nature COVID will leave them untouched... keep dreaming 

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12 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

I highly doubt that ETNZ will be dragged into court ... it would have to come from the COR after any mediation has taken place, and it would be against the NZ govt for not allowing access

considering the COR's own govt stopped access for an event and no one has sued them I don't see it happening

 

realistically:

the teams can ship/fly their gear here any time and it will sit around until they can hire people to unload

the NZ govt will allow special dispensation for teams/workers at some point in the near future (probably at the same time as the Tasman bubble) who will have to follow strict testing / 14day lockdown.

 

Lol are you seriously suggesting that a yacht club will win a dispute over COVID travel access to their own country. I am so enjoying this BS!

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Oh, the ‘but they did it too’ argument? :D

Not at all... just no moral high ground to pre-emptively accuse others of questionable honour... 

Your definitions of 'making headlines' is somewhat different to mine clearly - all I can see are other teams rightly explaining their predicament, and what they'd need to overcome it... the situation of 'no date' applies to just about every country in the world, and yet you imply it is somehow specifically an NZ engineered situation that they are now also somehow obligated to overcome in advance of every other nation and every other event/reason...

Fuck that... people are DYING bro!

It's in shockingly poor taste to contrive the measures being taken by every nation around the world and use it to insinuate one country's agenda is something anything other than that...

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9 minutes ago, uflux said:

Lol are you seriously suggesting that a yacht club will win a dispute over COVID travel access to their own country. I am so enjoying this BS!

No I'm not ... I'm suggesting that the challenger or COR if they wish to go to court don't have a shitshow of winning that case against the NZ govt.

 

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It's especially fun to watch the KiWhingersTM go after each other.

dumb_and_dumber_to_1.jpg

 

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8 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The Hawaii place beckoning to me is waterfront on the Kaanapali Coast, with a private stretch of beach. My favorite Agriturismo in Toscana has almost-equal appeal. And a top floor apartment with a terrace overlooking splendid Rome is a pretty great spot to exist too! 
 

But yes, obviously NZ and AUS look to be the nirvana spots if you’re looking for complete freedom from worries. 

Puako on the Big Island, lovely and enough supplies at the Puako General Store, no need to even go to town.  Fish market just up the road.  Boat drinks on the lanai watching for the green flash as the sun sets, that's my plan for sheltering in another place other than my paradise looking out over the Straits of Juan de Fuca towards the Olympic Peninsula and getting ready to shelter in place on my boat in my home waters for a few days.  Whatever problems I have are definitely 1st world.  BTW, entertaining watching all the faux drama on AC Anarchy, acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest gift of all.

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

It's especially fun to watch the KiWhingersTM go after each other.

dumb_and_dumber_to_1.jpg

 

It’s especially fun to watch the SailGP fans clamour for attention because their series sucks lol

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

Ah so ETNZ invoking a force majeure clause  (as opposed to an act of god clause)  helps your how??? Lol :D

It still essentially acts as a legal out due to circumstances outside their control. The exceptional nature COVID will leave them untouched... keep dreaming 

Right, but it looks like all ETNZ/RNZYS has to do is to eradicate the virus, so that the challengers are happy. All the while thousands of other businesses go bust, people are dieing, people lose their livelihoods, but of course it's most important that the challengers have planning reliability. 

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12 hours ago, Forourselves said:

The challenging teams should get all their Kiwi team members together, And make one super challenger, put feelers out to see if there’s any NZ Yacht clubs that want to lease out one of the Challenging teams AC75’s and race it against ETNZ With the America’s Cup on the line. The Kiwi public would lap it up. Two of the best Kiwi sailing teams in the world going head to head for the America’s Cup.

A super challenging team as you put it, racing under the banner of a NZ yacht club would not make a head to head race for the cup at all.  At best, a defender series... and an odd one at that....

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10 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

There seems to be a two-step programme being considered to allow people to enter NZ - Those from inside the 'trans-Tasman bubble' and those from outside the 'bubble'. 

From inside the trans-Tasman bubble, you present your negative test result that is less than 72 hours old at the point of departure and they let you on the plane. At the point of entry, you again present your negative test result, but you're tested again and quarantined until a negative result is confirmed. (24-36 hours) Then you're on your way.

Outside the bubble, the same process is being contemplated, only with the 14 day quarantine, but NZ want to be at their alert level 1 for at least 4 weeks.

Patience. It will happen. More likely in July than June may be the case.

 

Level One is only contemplated being returned to following completion of 28 days straight with no new cases... As of today that day count reset once more with one new case recorded.So yes, in all probability at least July, possibly August. All continuing to go well.

The 14 day quarantine undergone by NZ'ers might be a 28 day one for Non-Australian international guests fwiw.

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10 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Okay, not domestic tourism to Italy but on the subject of inevitable international visits at some point:

I think it was Simmer who said in one of his recent interviews that there’s an agreement between ETNZ and LR (did they say it’s even in the Protocol?) that under certain circumstances the Match would instead be held in Italy. He was answering a question about if it got postponed to a time in the northern hemisphere summer, a Deed-governing requirement. 

Yes, there is such a provision, but it was included prior to ETNZ securing the commitment of the NZ government and Auckland City Council to provide the infrastructure they wished to have in place to support bases, spectators, viewing etc for AC36. 

At its simplest the gambit was.. come to the party with infrastructure or we'll go sail this in Italy.  (I think the Middle East was also mooted at one point but from memory only the location of the CoR made it into the document) - and the reference to dates was to ensure that regardless which hemisphere the event was sailed in, it would not be sailed in winter conditions.

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6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

If you look at the AP decision on Cagliari (and by the way, where is the one to deal with the Portsmouth one?) then perhaps that ‘force majeur’ decision by the AC36 AP leads to an AC36 precedent regarding cancelations and postponements?

The Arbitration Panel deals with disputes between competitors, there was one for Cagliari because AM registered a dispute. There was not one for Portsmouth because nobody registered a dispute, it was cancelled by the organiser without complaint by the challengers.

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7 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

What’s your point? Do you honestly want a Defender to go down that path in AC History? 

The only honorable path is to face a real, well-prepared Challenge since it is otherwise just a foregone conclusion and a farce. There’s no pride to be had out of that, in fact it’s to the contrary. 

Actually... the teams may well have hands tied... from ETNZ on out through the CoR and other challengers.

No issue of honour involved.  Without changes to the protocol (and there are real and pressing limits to what changes might readily be accommodated given you'd be looking at a min 6 month delay if not sailed in the NZ summer of 2021) the status quo is maintained, challenging competitors present ad ready to sail or not.

So, on that footing AC36 probably comes to fruition -sailed or not - in March 2021.  Then perhaps on to AC37 in March 2023 (assuming the AC75's are preserved)...for a complete challenge cycle.

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7 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Am looking forward to hearing from CoR LR on this subject but since the strength of their management already got shot-canned it’s hard to guess the new posture.

Actually... only their event planning management team got shot-canned as you put it, not their sailing/syndicate management.  And to be fair there was little need for them by then, with no Cagliari or Portsmouth.

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6 hours ago, uflux said:

No court is going to award the cup to anyone else...COVID will legally be considered an act of god. Therefore outside ETNZs control. The Cup is not going anywhere 

Don't be so sure... In the hands of the American courts... anything would be possible.

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6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed, nobody’s fault for this situation but, again, it’s hard to imagine RNZYS or ETNZ wanting to hold a lop-sided event. There’s simply no honor in it, only potential dishonor.

If you look at the AP decision on Cagliari (and by the way, where is the one to deal with the Portsmouth one?) then perhaps that ‘force majeur’ decision by the AC36 AP leads to an AC36 precedent regarding cancelations and postponements?

There wasn't one for Portsmouth - it was cancelled by the organisers.

https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/news/440_STATEMENT-REGARDING-THE-CANCELLATION-OF-EMIRATES-ACWS-PORTSMOUTH-EVENT.html

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

“For the moment I would say no, because there is no element indicating that the races can be postponed. 

5 hours ago, uflux said:

ETNZ won’t be touched legally for what is legally an act of god. Keep dreaming

The more pertinent point perhaps is that the current protocol provides no basis for a postponement of the event. 

Yes, D/CoR could put heads together and agree a postponement, but with at least a 6 month deferral required under the provisions of the deed in lieu of a northern hemisphere re-location which I think we can all safely assume won't be on the ETNZ agenda, the impacts on budgets and a means of ensuring fairness across the participants would need to be considered.

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Considered the history I don't think the D can expect any leniency from the CoR.

More pertinent point being that CoR would need some reasonable prospect of succeeding in any action...

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11 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

More pertinent point

Good to see you back. That's some whack a troll effort, cheers.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Right, but it looks like all ETNZ/RNZYS has to do is to eradicate the virus, so that the challengers are happy. All the while thousands of other businesses go bust, people are dieing, people lose their livelihoods, but of course it's most important that the challengers have planning reliability. 

It's so laughable isn't it. :-)

This isn't about whether NZ can eradicate the virus, or if this could keep the challengers happy. The onus is on the challengers to get their own covid under control in order to be in a position for their residents to be accepted into other countries. 

If the American administration and enough facets of their population choose to behave as they have been, then it's their problem if they have not put themselves into a position to be able to safely enter another nations borders as a low risk.

It's classic that some of the trolls here think it's someone else's fault they've fucked up their chances so badly they now have to depend on NZs leniency to accept them on terms they can't even meet themselves.

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37 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

Don't be so sure... In the hands of the American courts... anything would be possible.

Why would a US court have anything to do with it? 

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4 minutes ago, uflux said:

Why would a US court have anything to do with it? 

Look to the deed to see who presides over legal issues pertaining to the Americas Cup... the New York Supreme Court is the court of first instance...

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37 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

More pertinent point being that CoR would need some reasonable prospect of succeeding in any action...

There is a feature on this site called "MultiQuote". It's the small "+" sign on the left under each post . Otherwise re. your posts: :wub:

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6 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

There is a feature on this site called "MultiQuote". It's the small "+" sign on the left under each post . Otherwise re. your posts: :wub:

Never mind.  I just won't post if it upsets your sensibilities so.  Or perhaps you could just not read what I post.  

I really really really appreciate discussing this in open forum...

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17 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

Look to the deed to see who presides over legal issues pertaining to the Americas Cup... the New York Supreme Court is the court of first instance...

Hmmmm I learnt something today!

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27 minutes ago, uflux said:

Why would a US court have anything to do with it? 

25 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

Look to the deed to see who presides over legal issues pertaining to the Americas Cup... the New York Supreme Court is the court of first instance...

7 minutes ago, uflux said:

Hmmmm I learnt something today!

Date I suggest... perhaps also why American syndicates have a pretty winning record in matters that make it that far...

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

Never mind.  I just won't post if it upsets your sensibilities so.  Or perhaps you could just not read what I post.  

I really really really appreciate discussing this in open forum...

You got my post so, so wrong. Just assume the contrary of what you thought, please.

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6 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

You got my post so, so wrong. Just assume the contrary of what you thought, please.

So you weren't slapping me then...?  Oh, what's that you say?  Actually... you were...?  That's kinda what I thought.  

So... I've been looking to see whether I can restrict a user or users from viewing my posts...

So far as I can see, the poster doesn't have that option - seems only the reader can block posts by selected others from appearing on their forum feed. Maybe you could do me a favour and do that for my posts.  Or if it does exist, tell me where the option can be found as I'll gladly apply it for you. Cheers.

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11 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

So you weren't slapping me then...?  Oh, what's that you say?  Actually... you were...?  That's kinda what I thought.  

So... I've been looking to see whether I can restrict a user or users from viewing my posts...

So far as I can see, the poster doesn't have that option - seems only the reader can block posts by selected others from appearing on their forum feed. Maybe you could do me a favour and do that for my posts.  Or if it does exist, tell me where the option can be found as I'll gladly apply it for you. Cheers.

Hey, what's wrong with you? I start to worry...

Please read this carefully:
- I like your posts!
- I usually agree with you.
- You can see that, because I often press the "like"-button.
- Re. above: I was only irritated, because there were so many posts by you in a row, that's why I gave you the information that there it that "MultiQuote" feature. I even added that "love you/your posts" smiley to emphasize that otherwise all is fine.
And no, there is no feature to block a reader, it would render the meaning of the forum a bit useless, I'd think.

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3 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Hey, what's wrong with you? I start to worry...

Seems a bit pointless trying to multi quote 10 different posts from the past couple of days into a single post. I simply replied to each... at least there's no doubting what message I was responding to with each.  But if it's poor form of me to post 5 or 6 times in succession, I'll just not post.  Point taken.

Right now, I need this like I need a hole in the head so will probably just retreat to the shadows and watch the forums scroll by. 

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8 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The real question is about what they will choose to do if there is no realistic competition.

YOu mean like ...

March 29, 1989
12 AM
Times Staff Writers
SAN DIEGO — 

In a ruling unprecedented in the 138-year history of the America’s Cup, a judge Tuesday said that Dennis Conner and the San Diego Yacht Club violated the spirit of fair competition called for in the Cup’s rules and awarded sailing’s most prestigious trophy to New Zealand.

New York Supreme Court Judge Carmen Ciparick decided that, by racing a catamaran against a monohull last September, San Diego had created a “gross mismatch” not in accordance with the “friendly competition between foreign countries” intended by the author of the 19th Century Deed of Gift governing the race.

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3 minutes ago, astro said:

YOu mean like ...

March 29, 1989
12 AM
Times Staff Writers
SAN DIEGO — 

In a ruling unprecedented in the 138-year history of the America’s Cup, a judge Tuesday said that Dennis Conner and the San Diego Yacht Club violated the spirit of fair competition called for in the Cup’s rules and awarded sailing’s most prestigious trophy to New Zealand.

New York Supreme Court Judge Carmen Ciparick decided that, by racing a catamaran against a monohull last September, San Diego had created a “gross mismatch” not in accordance with the “friendly competition between foreign countries” intended by the author of the 19th Century Deed of Gift governing the race.

Wasn't that overruled, although with dissenting votes?

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

Wasn't that overruled, although with dissenting votes?

Yep, but the law is not justice.

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3 minutes ago, astro said:

Yep, but the law is not justice.

Nor is it "honour"...

 

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6 minutes ago, astro said:

Yep, but the law is not justice.

 

2 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Nor is it "honour"...

 

But it decides how the DoG has to be applied - if someone asks.

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7 hours ago, Skipstone said:

Yes, there is such a provision, but it was included prior to ETNZ securing the commitment of the NZ government and Auckland City Council to provide the infrastructure they wished to have in place to support bases, spectators, viewing etc for AC36. 

At its simplest the gambit was.. come to the party with infrastructure or we'll go sail this in Italy.

Great party. I'm sure the NeoZeds are thrilled with the Emiratis at this point.

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7 hours ago, rh3000 said:

This isn't about whether NZ can eradicate the virus, or if this could keep the challengers happy. The onus is on the challengers to get their own covid under control in order to be in a position for their residents to be accepted into other countries.

6 hours ago, uflux said:

Why would a US court have anything to do with it? 

"It's so laughable isn't it. :-)"

I still stand amazed at the level of confident ignorance in these KiWhingersTM. Thank goodness I'm on ignore with these idiots. They are certainly not worth conversing with.

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6 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

You got my post so, so wrong. Just assume the contrary of what you thought, please.

And you call me a "troll"?

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40 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

New?
Apparently Terry was on a promo tour...
 

 

Thanks, enjoyed that one by TH too. Fun story in there about ‘spaceship Captain Ken’ - good one.

Minor quibble: TH said about the windspeed limits that they are measured at 5M up, I think Murray said 10M? 

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Thanks, enjoyed that one by TH too. Fun story in there about ‘spaceship Captain Ken’ - good one.

Minor quibble: TH said about the windspeed limits that they are measured at 5M up, I think Murray said 10M? 

one hertz samples over 30 seconds at 5.5 m.

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13 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Puako on the Big Island, lovely and enough supplies at the Puako General Store, no need to even go to town.  Fish market just up the road.  Boat drinks on the lanai watching for the green flash as the sun sets, that's my plan for sheltering in another place other than my paradise looking out over the Straits of Juan de Fuca towards the Olympic Peninsula and getting ready to shelter in place on my boat in my home waters for a few days.  Whatever problems I have are definitely 1st world.  BTW, entertaining watching all the faux drama on AC Anarchy, acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest gift of all.

Thanks for the Puako tip, cabin fever has me adventurously looking into ideas just like that one.

Regarding your paradise, yes that’s exactly my post-retirement plan. Travel and variety is good but there’s no place on earth I’d rather live than in an even nicer part of the PNW. 

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20 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Thanks, that could well be what Simmer was referring to. 

But you and Simmer both make a false assumption that Sicily is specifically being referred to

Q. Who is the COR?

A. It's a moving target. Over time it can change, see AC34, AC35 etc - hell it changed before there was even any racing!

So through pique, 'honour', disgruntlement, as per the plan (ref; Iain 'many hats' Murray @ HIYC), being unsure if they'll get there in time to have a decent crack so giving up or simply being beaten out of the spot by other challengers once the racing actually starts - it will change. That is why the clause (whether it was a dull weapon to use against the Auckland/NZ authorities as explained above or not) allows for the COR's 'home waters' to be in either hemisphere - all challengers (and so potential CORs) being unknown at the point in time it was written......

 

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41 minutes ago, nav said:

But you and Simmer both make a false assumption that Sicily is specifically being referred to

Q. Who is the COR?

A. It's a moving target. Over time it can change, see AC34, AC35 etc - hell it changed before there was even any racing!

So through pique, 'honour', disgruntlement, as per the plan (ref; Iain 'many hats' Murray @ HIYC), being unsure if they'll get there in time to have a decent crack so giving up or simply being beaten out of the spot by other challengers once the racing actually starts - it will change. That is why the clause (whether it was a dull weapon to use against the Auckland/NZ authorities as explained above or not) allows for the COR's 'home waters' to be in either hemisphere - all challengers (and so potential CORs) being unknown at the point in time it was written......

 

Fair enough, and I do think both the Prada Cup and Match will happen on schedule but let’s face the for-now news, the suggestion at least, that a venue change (to somewhere) is at least a possibility. In even NZ articles:

 

Some America's Cup challengers claim they have had no indication from Government as to when they might be able to get their foreign nationals into the country, and there is a growing feeling that if Cup personnel cannot be on the ground by early July, the challengers will push for a delay of the America's Cup for up to a year, or even worse, lobby for the regatta to be moved offshore.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12333579

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9 minutes ago, nav said:

But you and Simmer both make a false assumption that Sicily is specifically being referred to

Q. Who is the COR?

A. It's a moving target. Over time it can change, see AC34, AC35 etc - hell it changed before there was even any racing!

So through pique, 'honour', disgruntlement, as per the plan (ref; Iain 'many hats' Murray @ HIYC), being unsure if they'll get there in time to have a decent crack so giving up or simply being beaten out of the spot by other challengers once the racing actually starts - it will change. That is why the clause (whether it was a dull weapon to use against the Auckland/NZ authorities as explained above or not) allows for the COR's 'home waters' to be in either hemisphere - all challengers (and so potential CORs) being unknown at the point in time it was written......

 

The Protocol is a legal agreement between RNZYS and Circolo della Vela Sicilia, which is specifically named as the COR by that Protocol.

So yes, when the Protocol was written, they knew who the COR was at that time, and the Protocol was written with that in mind.

Article 4.1 says the "...Match shall be held in the coastal waters of NZ...", unless RNZYS "...elects (with the agreement of the COR) .." to hold it in the coastal water of the country of the COR.

So as long as CVS remains as COR, the options are NZ, or Italy. But it is NZ's decision where it will be in any case. The COR is only a bit player in that regard.

To the best of my knowledge, that's the only time a clause of this type has appeared in a Protocol.

You're free to speculate as to why it was written to provide this option.

Everyone who is a Challenger is obliged to abide by the terms of the Protocol in order for their challenge to be accepted.

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26 minutes ago, accnick said:

Everyone who is a Challenger is obliged to abide by the terms of the Protocol in order for their challenge to be accepted.

Not only the terms - but the "spirit and intent" of the Protocol - to which the Emiratis themselves are not bound. Convenient language.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

The Protocol is a legal agreement between RNZYS and Circolo della Vela Sicilia, which is specifically named as the COR by that Protocol.

So yes, when the Protocol was written, they knew who the COR was at that time, and the Protocol was written with that in mind.

Article 4.1 says the "...Match shall be held in the coastal waters of NZ...", unless RNZYS "...elects (with the agreement of the COR) .." to hold it in the coastal water of the country of the COR.

So as long as CVS remains as COR, the options are NZ, or Italy. But it is NZ's decision where it will be in any case. The COR is only a bit player in that regard.

To the best of my knowledge, that's the only time a clause of this type has appeared in a Protocol.

You're free to speculate as to why it was written to provide this option.

Everyone who is a Challenger is obliged to abide by the terms of the Protocol in order for their challenge to be accepted.

Obviously, no Challenger, no Protocol.....didn't think I had to explain that....

The point is that in the unlikely event of the AC being moved the Protocol only allows for it to go to the home waters of the COR, who could by then be any of the existing or potential Challengers - last man standing...ok?

So at the time the Protocol is being written, if you agree (with the present COR) to include such a clause, you have to allow for that location to be at virtually any qualifying Club anywhere...depending on who rocks up before closing time!

 

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25 minutes ago, nav said:

Obviously, no Challenger, no Protocol.....didn't think I had to explain that....

The point is that in the unlikely event of the AC being moved the Protocol only allows for it to go to the home waters of the COR, who could by then be any of the existing or potential Challengers - last man standing...ok?

So at the time the Protocol is being written, if you agree (with the present COR) to include such a clause, you have to allow for that location to be at virtually any qualifying Club anywhere...depending on who rocks up before closing time!

 

The Protocol survives the current Challenger of Record. That's pretty clear from article 1.2.

It is up to RNZYS to determine whether the event is in NZ or in the country of the COR. Unless and until the current COR relinquishes that position, the options for the event are NZ, or Italy. If a new COR is appointed, the options would be NZ or the country of the new COR. But it would still be a RNZYS call.

Maybe we agree, but are talking in circles. If not, we will just have to agree to disagree what the Protocol says.

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D dertermines where the event takes place, D and CoR decide when.

4.1. The Match shall be held in the coastal waters of New Zealand in March 2021, or if RNZYS so elects (with the agreement of COR) in the coastal waters of the country of COR. The above date may be changed by COR/D if the Match venue is to be in the Northern Hemisphere and where required all other relevant dates in this Protocol shall be adjusted accordingly.

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Quote

Robertson said the Government is working on providing more information to teams.

"Obviously they [the teams] want to be in here in the next couple of months. We need to be able to at least give them a response before that time."

...

Team New Zealand has the advantage...

Oh, ya think?

It's getting more douchebaggy by the day.

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Geez, the Tea Spoon of Smack Slap Pappy has been busy. Won't answer to obvious blunders but that's very Trump like.

Amazing what a cry baby he has become now that his beloved team doesnt get the red carpet treatment that he feels they should receive - because he cannot fathom how protection of Citizens and their way of life, in a country other than his own, could ever have precedence over his Flag waving team of the moment.

Really, he should keep his powder dry. The AM team may be achieving such remarkable consistent flight characteristics that clearly they have emphasised ease of flight over pace and acceleration to the point that the performance characteristics will be lame and wanting for a lot.......

There will be references from him for years to come (unfortunately) about how the conspiracy to delay their arrival in NZ put them at such a disadvantage that they could never recover. 

All in all he has become the Whinger that he tries to taunt everyone with. He is not here for the pinnacle of sailing sport, that the AC represents - just to be a hand grenade and start shit fights with whomever will engage. 

He has become the Doug Lord of this cycle, but without the passion, dare I say it, for actual sail boats. (No, I do not  miss that f'wit either....... Just amazed that his vacuum of leaving has been occupied by another equally poisonous prescence - though that role has been vyed for by a few contenders)

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

He has become the Doug Lord of this cycle

Doug was many things, but for the most part I think he genuinely believed in his (often misguided) ideas vs the straight-out trolling that we have seen around here of late.

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On 5/21/2020 at 1:38 PM, rh3000 said:

Glass houses etc

The latest slate of restrictions indicate that while the United States moves toward reopening, the federal government is not ready to ease measures put in place in March that largely sealed off the US to stem the spread of Covid-19. 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/18/politics/extend-border-and-travel-restrictions-coronavirus/index.html

Don’t try to find any logic in the decisions made by this administration.  The virus is wide spread in the US and there is no way of trying to eradicated it.  The only hope is to try and slow the spread to keep the cases within the medical system limitations.  Trying to install restrictions on incoming travel into the US is really of no purpose, except to try and make political statements.  Now with the Trump encouraging people to fight the medical advice it has even gotten crazier.  There are small stores in the south that have signs saying no mask wearing allowed in the store.  You can’t fix stupid.

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50 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Don’t try to find any logic in the decisions made by this administration.  The virus is wide spread in the US and there is no way of trying to eradicated it.  The only hope is to try and slow the spread to keep the cases within the medical system limitations.  Trying to install restrictions on incoming travel into the US is really of no purpose, except to try and make political statements.  Now with the Trump encouraging people to fight the medical advice it has even gotten crazier.  There are small stores in the south that have signs saying no mask wearing allowed in the store.  You can’t fix stupid.

I understand that and appreciate the corner the US has painted itself into. :-)

I was more just pointing out that even still, borders are closed, with no dates to open, and yet the trolls still think NZs lack of date is somehow exclusively disdainful.

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