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3 hours ago, rcbrds said:

That was little to good to pass up.

All 3 in top 5 isn't one of them getting smashed though.

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3 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

I'd not seen that article, but here is what it said...

AIS? Really? His last statement in red there is the key. No, Gerald, it's not impressive if it's not accurate.

So, if anyone is using dubious data to support an argument, it's you. I'm not nearly as willing to take Gerald and John's word for it as you are. Let's see some proof from a reliable measurement source. It's not that hard. SGP does it every day.

At the end of the day, I don't discount that these AC75s are capable of doing 50 knots. They are super powerful and they foil. So they should be able to.

That does not make them, however, good race boats. We've seen that in spades as every single team has found the bottom with these ridiculous things - and have a hell of a time trying to keep them consistently fast in maneuvers.

That's my point. And it's backed up by data - not some chucklehead looking at AIS.

Total deflection. You challenged the boat speeds and the apparent winds they might produce and I provided you with an indication.  I am not interested in buying into or debating your new self imposed argument about how good race boats AC75’s are.

And FWIW Solent spring tides could give up to +/- 4 knot difference between (AIS) SOG and through the water boat speed depending on direction of travel and location on the Solent at the time of the AIS data points.

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Again - we can only go by what we see. The conditions in this photo are not the level we see in the AM photo above.

Until we have video and actual conditions data, I'd have to give it to AM at this point based on the evidence provided. They were out in it while the Emiratis were in the barn. And even then, we're still talking moments in time - not the extended control needed for racing (back to the problem with the class itself).

There's only one way to cut through the BS and theoretical/hopeful postulation. Proof.

1/ You don't know Auckland.

2/ The only evidence we've seen so far from video taken by people on the ground in Auckland, shows AM lacking either technique, power or control, causing issues with their maneuvering.

3/ You are the last person that should talk about proof. Its not something you're good at providing. I've been waiting for weeks for the proof of your statement that AM were pulling off maneuvers 6 months ago as crisp, clean and fast as Te Aihe was on July 15th.

Its been weeks of stalling from you, and you still haven't produced it. 

 

 

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From everything we are seeing and yet so early these things will obliterate an AC50 especially around a course where they will have higher sustained speeds through a tack. To be fair though we are comparing a 50 foot cat vs a 75 foot mono albeit less a wing sail. All we need is close racing to make it a great spectacle. All 4 teams competing are well funded and sailed so it should be close enough to make it a spectacle. Conversely could we see one team a way ahead like the Kiwis?

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7 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Some of you want to confuse Boat Speed, True Wind Speed and Apparent Wind Speed to suit your arguments.....

Maybe Te Aihe and Defiant haven’t hit 50 knots yet, but I am sure that you have seen this from the early posts on the InEOS thread.... and InEOS should be faster by now:

https://www.sailweb.co.uk/2019/10/30/americas-cup-ineos-team-uk-go-for-the-full-monty/

And all boats will have seen way over 50kt AWS, with those huge rigs. Impressive.

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8 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Total deflection. You challenged the boat speeds and the apparent winds they might produce and I provided you with an indication.  I am not interested in buying into or debating your new self imposed argument about how good race boats AC75’s are.

And FWIW Solent spring tides could give up to +/- 4 knot difference between (AIS) SOG and through the water boat speed depending on direction of travel and location on the Solent at the time of the AIS data points.

What you provided was a second-hand, hearsay guess at boatspeed. If that's enough for you to accept - fine. But even you undermine your own point with your last sentence - which means you at least understand some of why I don't buy it. So, I too am uninterested in debating guess work - which is pretty much all I see from you and the other posters above.

There is more than enough evidence to prove my points - photos, videos, direct statements from the actual stakeholders. And I've provided that in my arguments while I've been around here. There's almost none to prove the opposite. So you guys produce the actual proof for your arguments and we'll talk. Oh, and words like "will" and "will have" and "seagulls" and "Gerald said..." are clear indicators that you don't have it.

My point stands. And we'll only see who is right when the racing happens - if it happens.

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SGP data analysts are very clear and upfront  that they correct boat speed using detailed tide/current models and feed that corrected speed to the boat tactical software displays. If you doubt this, ask one.

Because models are obviously +/- something I would not get too excited unless I was a marketer over a couple of tenths of knots over 50. Let's  see how the AC75s do with their corrected speeds. And the newly tweaked F50s. 

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4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

SGP data analysts are very clear and upfront  that they correct boat speed using detailed tide/current models and feed that corrected speed to the boat tactical software displays. If you doubt this, ask one.

Because models are obviously +/- something I would not get too excited unless I was a marketer over a couple of tenths of knots over 50. Let's  see how the AC75s do with their corrected speeds. And the newly tweaked F50s. 

AIS doesn’t...... Read the cite given.

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

What you provided was a second-hand, hearsay guess at boatspeed. If that's enough for you to accept - fine. But even you undermine your own point with your last sentence - which means you at least understand some of why I don't buy it. So, I too am uninterested in debating guess work - which is pretty much all I see from you and the other posters above.

There is more than enough evidence to prove my points - photos, videos, direct statements from the actual stakeholders. And I've provided that in my arguments while I've been around here. There's almost none to prove the opposite. So you guys produce the actual proof for your arguments and we'll talk. Oh, and words like "will" and "will have" and "seagulls" and "Gerald said..." are clear indicators that you don't have it.

My point stands. And we'll only see who is right when the racing happens - if it happens.

To summarise:

There are a number of scenarios mentioned where it is easy to see that AC75 can and will experience apparent wind speeds of 55 knots plus. There are others on this thread who agree with that observation.

Go find another irrelevant excuse and pick on someone else in the sand pit.

 

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27 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

AIS doesn’t...... Read the cite given.

Correct. SGP claims they correct the boat SOG using tide and current models.  Still +/- model error and measurement error.  But the claimed "speed record" at Cowes was their corrected speed, fwiw.

I don't know what other teams do. 

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40 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

To summarise:

There are a number of scenarios mentioned where it is easy to see that AC75 can and will experience apparent wind speeds of 55 knots plus. There are others on this thread who agree with that observation.

Go find another irrelevant excuse and pick on someone else in the sand pit.

 

Excuse me there sweetheart, but I believe you are the mouthy newb who toddled into my sand pit and started making irrelevant points while SBD and I were enjoing a scotch and throwing a couple of jabs around....

1041706875_ScreenShot2020-08-20at4_44_12PM.thumb.png.d8f154313bdb62e82c733212dcdb115e.png

Clew is still trying to explain to you why you're looking like an idiot. You should listen to her. And as I said, Sting's math makes sense - so read his stuff and think about things a bit.

Then maybe buy some floaties and you can try the deep end again...by showing us proof of sustained 55 AWS with full rag by these boats - which is where you began your toddle.

I'll wait.

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Excuse me there sweetheart, but I believe you are the mouthy newb who toddled into my sand pit and started making irrelevant points while SBD and I were enjoing a scotch and throwing a couple of jabs around....

1041706875_ScreenShot2020-08-20at4_44_12PM.thumb.png.d8f154313bdb62e82c733212dcdb115e.png

Clew is still trying to explain to you why you're looking like an idiot. You should listen to her. And as I said, Sting's math makes sense - so read his stuff and think about things a bit.

Then maybe buy some floaties and you can try the deep end again...by showing us proof of sustained 55 AWS with full rag by these boats - which is where you began your toddle.

I'll wait.

OK. I'll admit I may have gotten a little over-excited with my numbers, Smack. Would you settle for 38 - 40 knots AWS? ;-)

But without knowing the TWS on the day, or the vectors being sailed, it's a bit difficult to establish AWS accurately. But if you take wind speed (as in gusting to) and assume the vector was maybe 37 (I have no idea what high mode in an AC75 might look like) you can add maybe 25 - 30% of SOG (let's not worry about 3 knots of tide) to said TWS and get a pretty close AWS. 

OK. So we've established I'm shit at math - but to borrow one of your most favoured saying, "my point still stands". Is there another 75'er which can carry her full main in those sorts of AWS's? 

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30 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

OK. I'll admit I may have gotten a little over-excited with my numbers, Smack. Would you settle for 38 - 40 knots AWS? ;-)

But without knowing the TWS on the day, or the vectors being sailed, it's a bit difficult to establish AWS accurately. But if you take wind speed (as in gusting to) and assume the vector was maybe 37 (I have no idea what high mode in an AC75 might look like) you can add maybe 25 - 30% of SOG (let's not worry about 3 knots of tide) to said TWS and get a pretty close AWS. 

OK. So we've established I'm shit at math - but to borrow one of your most favoured saying, "my point still stands". Is there another 75'er which can carry her full main in those sorts of AWS's? 

Heh. I would definitely buy ~40 AWS. As you say, and as I was pointing out to the toddler, none of us around here have enough actual data to be heralding any kind of "record breaking" speeds...except ForOurSheikh who is omniscient in his own mind. But he's harmless.

As you say, when you really start working those numbers, getting to 55 AWS is certainly doable - but I just haven't seen it, at least not reliably. Maybe it's happened...who knows? Thus far it's all been seagulls and second-hand AIS around here. And this is also from the same crowd who think that Deano pumping for speed at take-off is somehow "lack of control".

Now, to your other point - yes, it is unquestionably the only 75' monohull sailboat I've EVER seen going this fast - much less with a full main. And I suppose that's breaking some kind of record. So, you sir, are correct.

Another scotch?

PS - Does anyone really know how tight these things can sail to a 15-20 knot TWS? That would certainly help.

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8 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Another scotch?

Craft beer for me, thanks. :-)

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5 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Craft beer for me, thanks. :-)

Jeez, you're bossy.

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24 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

As you say, when you really start working those numbers, getting to 55 AWS is certainly doable - but I just haven't seen it, at least not reliably. Maybe it's happened...who knows? Thus far it's all been seagulls and second-hand AIS around here. And this is also from the same crowd who think that Deano pumping for speed at take-off is somehow "lack of control".

You can bluster, insult and bully all you like, but any boat speed over 30 knots is capable of producing 55 knot apparent wind speeds in the upper wind range of AC conditions.

Don’t wait for the experts, borrow a primary school geometry set and learn how to use it.

Pretty much anything over 15 degrees AWA will get you there. There are plenty of boats which can do wind speed upwind at  23 degrees AWA and AWS 1.85 TWS. And as I said at the very beginning, I would expect an AC75 to do a lot better that that.

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

...any boat speed over 30 knots is capable of...in the upper wind range ...

Pretty much anything over 15 degrees AWA... plenty of boats which can do....

And as I said at the very beginning, I would expect an AC75 to do a lot better that that.

Exactly. You've got nothing. That's my freakin' point! Run along now.

Geez, children these days.

Now, back to the adult conversation...who has reliable/proven numbers on upwind angles these AC75s can actually do? Anyone? That really is the starting place.

Stingers - you heard anything?

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40 minutes ago, Tropical Madness said:

 

obviously subjective but... ETNZ look alot faster than nick.

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1 hour ago, bigrpowr said:

obviously subjective but... ETNZ look alot faster than nick.

What’s the subjective bit? Massive prototype boat with hydro and foils is faster in open water than bloke on 5k kite set up. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, OldWoodenShip said:

I'm not sure about the 75s, but the AUS SGP guys said they hit 54kt AWS accelerating on the reach to M1 in one of the races at Cowes.

wasn't it 51.4 not 54?

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10 hours ago, Forourselves said:

wasn't it 51.4 not 54?

51.4 +/- ?

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Some of the most coveted info would be pointing angle/downwind angle when powered up.  Having access to that on a public forum at this juncture would not make much sense, considering the teams probably only know their own data so far.

Maybe fast and low downwind will win the race.

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11 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

What’s the subjective bit? Massive prototype boat with hydro and foils is faster in open water than bloke on 5k kite set up. 
 

 

Thanks. I didn't want to be the first one to break the love bubble.

I've noticed ALL the AC75s are far faster than a duck too.

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

51.4 +/- ?

But mostly “-“

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The speed potential of these boats is obviously enormous.

Way back, Burns Fellow, North Sails designer and ETNZ team member (who helped write the AC75 Rule) had some interesting things to say about apparent wind sailing and about sailing mechanics of these boats: “As soon as you start foiling and your apparent wind gets higher, you become much more aware of drag...Drag becomes a very important consideration when you have 45-50kts of apparent wind coming across the deck.” 

Also on the AC75 rig being small and using the double skinned mainsail: “…we can approach a lift coefficient of around 2.0 with a soft wing and headsail configuration where a conventional sail would be 20% lower than that”.

I haven’t been able to find any references to optimum vectors though.

 

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

The speed potential of these boats is obviously enormous.

Way back, Burns Fellow, North Sails designer and ETNZ team member (who helped write the AC75 Rule) had some interesting things to say about apparent wind sailing and about sailing mechanics of these boats: “As soon as you start foiling and your apparent wind gets higher, you become much more aware of drag...Drag becomes a very important consideration when you have 45-50kts of apparent wind coming across the deck.” 

Also on the AC75 rig being small and using the double skinned mainsail: “…we can approach a lift coefficient of around 2.0 with a soft wing and headsail configuration where a conventional sail would be 20% lower than that”.

I haven’t been able to find any references to optimum vectors though.

 

 

Funny you bring that up, SBD. Burns also provided the answer long ago as to why Deano was pumping the boat in some of these videos while coming up on the foils...

Quote

“Upwind the AC75 will need to build speed by coming off its optimal VMG upwind course for some time, and may have to sail a reaching course to some degree.”

Of course, the "geniuses" around here thought it was lack of control...just like they think that 100% flight time is the fastest way to race.

#NOFREAKINCLUE

As for the vectors, I haven't seen anything solid either. I was hoping Stingray had found something. He's one of the few reliable/knowledgeable posters around here with the ability to back up what he says with facts - well, in addition to me, of course.

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stinger and you have a few things in common, spamdaddy

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So you're stalking me again? You really don't have to follow/read my stuff. I don't mind. I don't read/follow yours.

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Looks like old footage but only just posted on YT. Good close footage of some tacks  


 

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From the video...light winds, low speed, so tough to take much from this...but the AC75 doesn't exactly seem be a wind-hugger in Bermuda conditions..

vectors_AM01.thumb.png.fa004268f4868111714f788b86032391.png

Anybody else have anything better?

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Nice light zephyr. 7 knots or so. Hopefully will build a bit from the north east.

Screen Shot 2020-08-22 at 9.45.06 AM.png

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18 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

What’s the subjective bit? Massive prototype boat with hydro and foils is faster in open water than bloke on 5k kite set up. 
 

 

subjective meaning speed relative to AM vs the kite... dickhead.

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Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

:P

 

IMG_20200822_150356.jpg

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

Hmm not too impressed with your social distancing there Weta with RG and beware gulls do pair for life.

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

Spent about 2 hours sharing a rock with RG waiting for Defiant to come back in from around behind Rangi (that's me on the left).

RG gave up and went home in the end (around 5pm), it was getting cold and the light was fading fast.

Then, a short while later, Defiant was TOWED back in to base!

So not much to show for the afternoon, I'm sorry.

Plenty of seagulls but no boat.

DSC_1476.jpg

Proof that you’re not one in the same person then. Good to see you both wear the right coloured jackets too. 

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13 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

So you're stalking me again? You really don't have to follow/read my stuff. I don't mind. I don't read/follow yours.

So you don't read his posts, yet you react and respond to them......

Add that to your inability to understand AWS (apparent wind speed) from BS (boatspeed, but in your case Bull Shit is equally transferable) and yet you demand "Proof".

Clown Pa fumbling for for anthing that supports his narrative, in any guise, flavour or snapshot. And trying to deflect from his own poorly constructed position.

And stop denigrating the sterling work by @weta27 when he says that July 15 was as windy as the day as defiant was out in, then accept his account for what it represents - Consistent observations and more than a grain of honesty, which is more than you have ever demonstrated. 

YCMTSU.

You can't Handle the Proof........ 

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6 hours ago, Boink said:

So you don't read his posts, yet you react and respond to them......

I think if you look at post histories you'll notice that, between him and me, only one of us stalks the other in threads they are posting in and baits like you saw above. And it's not me.

Also, I don't have an "ignore" list. I'm man enough not to need one. So if someone posts directly at me in a thread I'm in, I choose whether to respond. Most of the time, like with you, I'm not interested enough to engage. But I'll respond every once in a while if I feel it's warranted. In the case above, for reasons you wouldn't understand - it was absolutely warranted.

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22 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

From the video...light winds, low speed, so tough to take much from this...but the AC75 doesn't exactly seem be a wind-hugger in Bermuda conditions..

vectors_AM01.thumb.png.fa004268f4868111714f788b86032391.png

Anybody else have anything better?

WTF is a 'wind-hugger'?

 

Did you not get the memo, you have to use yellow lines!

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Yellow doesn't match my platform shoes.

So, in this vid, Te Ahmed is more powered up and a bit tighter to the wind - but still seems to be tacking through 60° - 70°...just a bit better than AM above which was in lighter conditions...

vectors_NZ01.thumb.png.c35ac94257d60cbd3c8b27e77c806f6a.png

Better hope for some breeze in these races if they expect these AC75s to make the top mark before the cutoff. Heh.

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51 minutes ago, Liquid said:

WTF is a 'wind-hugger'?

Not at all like a "windjammer". Well, maybe a little.

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One from yesterday and one from today. 

They were off Brown's Bay today, looked to be sailing the course up there. Only got to watch them for a few minutes, but looked pretty slick.

Stopped just after we arrived and dropped the jib. Still out apparently.

DSC_1463.jpg

DSC_1480.jpg

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5 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Yellow doesn't match my platform shoes.

So, in this vid, Te Ahmed is more powered up and a bit tighter to the wind - but still seems to be tacking through 60° - 70°...just a bit better than AM above which was in lighter conditions...

vectors_NZ01.thumb.png.c35ac94257d60cbd3c8b27e77c806f6a.png

Better hope for some breeze in these races if they expect these AC75s to make the top mark before the cutoff. Heh.

Um.... So you calculate a yachts VMG up a beat by the angle they tack through the wind?!?! Good luck with that...:rolleyes:

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If we  want anything resembling reasonable estimates for VMG, we need to hold a collection to go toward better drones for SAAC spying.    

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8 minutes ago, uflux said:

Um.... So you calculate a yachts VMG up a beat by the angle they tack through the wind?!?! Good luck with that...:rolleyes:

I'm more curious as to how he came up with 60-70

 

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6 minutes ago, P Flados said:

If we  want anything resembling reasonable estimates for VMG, we need to hold a collection to go toward better drones for SAAC spying.    

If only there was an anarchist with a plane and pilots license in Auckland that could take @weta27for a fact finding flight over the boats

Possible.. If he wasn’t spending all his time with his new purple toy :ph34r:
 

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48 minutes ago, uflux said:

Um.... So you calculate a yachts VMG up a beat by the angle they tack through the wind?!?! Good luck with that...:rolleyes:

No. Try to pay attention. This has nothing to do with VMG (yet). As SBD and I have been discussing, this is about the angles that the AC75 can sail upwind...which then begins to give an idea of potential AWS.

Of course, if the mark is dead upwind, then, yes, these angles mean a lot to VMG as well.

So what educated opinion do you bring to the table?

Here's some homework while I'm waiting to be enlightened...what did Burns Fellow mean by this?

Quote

“Upwind the AC75 will need to build speed by coming off its optimal VMG upwind course for some time, and may have to sail a reaching course to some degree.”

Was he right? And if so, where is the transition and what AWS creates it?

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11 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

I think if you look at post histories you'll notice that, between him and me, only one of us stalks the other in threads they are posting in and baits like you saw above. And it's not me.

Also, I don't have an "ignore" list. I'm man enough not to need one. So if someone posts directly at me in a thread I'm in, I choose whether to respond. Most of the time, like with you, I'm not interested enough to engage. But I'll respond every once in a while if I feel it's warranted. In the case above, for reasons you wouldn't understand - it was absolutely warranted.

So yet again you contradict yourself......

That pedestal that place yourself and your percieved knowledge, symbolically upon, is actually to be found in a storage cupboard on Basement level -5 of a very dull and rarely visited archive building miles out of town on a restricted road......

You are just white noise amongst the Hub Bub of this busy place. You do not bring any interesting insights or knowledge. Just criticism and complaint. Mostly self concocted and self inflicted.

Shame really, what we are witnessing here is the space race of the sailing world. Some bits will work, some won't. Failures and mistakes will enevitably be made. Triumphs and conquering of difficulties through technology and new techniques will emerge.

Your negative take is just sad and unwarranted. And seemingly unending.

My Gran always liked to remind people about Not saying anything if you can't say anything nice. Thats very black and white and I respect that nuances and shades of grey exist.

But for your level of comprehension - Just Shut Up.

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Check out this crazy Kiteboarder who actually cut's TNZ's space.. 

 

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5 hours ago, Lickindip said:

I'm more curious as to how he came up with 60-70

 

It’s wrong.

Red lines. 

How can we rely on red lines?!

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6 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

No. Try to pay attention. This has nothing to do with VMG (yet). As SBD and I have been discussing, this is about the angles that the AC75 can sail upwind...which then begins to give an idea of potential AWS.

Of course, if the mark is dead upwind, then, yes, these angles mean a lot to VMG as well.

So what educated opinion do you bring to the table?

Here's some homework while I'm waiting to be enlightened...what did Burns Fellow mean by this?

Was he right? And if so, where is the transition and what AWS creates it?

The angle a yacht comeS out of a tack is largely irrelevant to your argument. Is that enlightening enough??B)

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6 hours ago, uflux said:

The angle a yacht comeS out of a tack is largely irrelevant to your argument. Is that enlightening enough??B)

Well, it's about as "enlightening" as I expected.

Here's another question/hint for you since you're doubling down...what is your estimate of VMG in the videos/photos above? You're welcome to use yellow.

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lol, 30 degrees to the wind as a regular upwind sailing angle.

where did you get that phd of sailing?  maybe from your smack dealer.

They seem to point pretty high at times, but 30 degrees would be too high for a sailboat on a regular basis.

Some of the video looks like they are lower than 45 degrees.

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3 hours ago, david r said:

lol, 30 degrees to the wind as a regular upwind sailing angle.

where did you get that phd of sailing?  maybe from your smack dealer.

They seem to point pretty high at times, but 30 degrees would be too high for a sailboat on a regular basis.

Some of the video looks like they are lower than 45 degrees.

I've not stated any definitive numbers. I've just shown the tack angles from the videos.

And when you say this...

Quote

They seem to point pretty high at times, but 30 degrees would be too high for a sailboat on a regular basis. Some of the video looks like they are lower than 45 degrees.

How exactly do you arrive at that conclusion for these AC75s? Do others agree?

Finally, if these AC75s really can only do 45° upwind (or worse) - SBD is going to be very disappointed in that AWS number.

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7 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Well, it's about as "enlightening" as I expected.

Here's another question/hint for you since you're doubling down...what is your estimate of VMG in the videos/photos above? You're welcome to use yellow.

Well.. I am glad that you finally agree with me :)

As for VMG my perception is that we are seeing some very tight angles upwind. But of course, there can be various modes that will get you the same VMG low and fast through to high and slow. what angles these yachts come out of a tack are completely irrelevant. As I am sure you have realised in your answer above. Keep on flying dude!

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-08-24 at 11.43.42 AM.png

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5 hours ago, cinnr said:

@smackdaddy Are you talking about apparent wind speed (AWS)?

In the original discussion, Smack and I were discussing wind strength and AWS.

But that discussion morphed into questions about the possible vectors (angles to true wind direction) that the AC75's might be capable of sailing. Further discussions included how much more efficient the apparent wind sailing rig of the AC75 is when, compared to a conventional mono set-up (being much smaller, lighter and using twin skins etc).

In other words, how well can theses fuckers point?

 

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

As for VMG my perception is that we are seeing some very tight angles upwind. But of course, there can be various modes that will get you the same VMG low and fast through to high and slow. what angles these yachts come out of a tack are completely irrelevant. As I am sure you have realised in your answer above.

Your "perception"? So what are the angles? I assume you don't agree with david_r that they are most always more than 45° and almost never 30°?

And what are those modes you're referring to? I know the info exists somewhere - I just have very low confidence you either have insight into it, and/or understand it even if you do.

VMG includes a whole lot of factors - especially with these boats...and your upwind angle from tack to tack is absolutely one of those - especially if that's where your mark is. That's part of what Burns was talking about in his quote above. And though I'm sure you're brilliant at something in your life - it apparently ain't this. I'll stick with Burns, thanks.

PS - @cinnr - yes. SBD and I were talking about whether these boats have seen 55 knots AWS across the deck. I don't know one way or the other, I was just skeptical based on what I've seen in the videos thus far - at least for any appreciable amount of time. I have no doubt it's doable on these things, but that's why we were talking about angles/vectors and wind speed. uflummoxed just started howling about VMG in the middle of that discussion for some reason known only to him.

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55 knots of AWS?

Unless you have boat speed, angle to wind and TWS calculating AWS is impossible so the discussion is pointless.

They go fast... hopefully all boats will be similar and the racing will be close.

 

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9 minutes ago, Rushman said:

55 knots of AWS?

Unless you have boat speed, angle to wind and TWS calculating AWS is impossible so the discussion is pointless.

They go fast... hopefully all boats will be similar and the racing will be close.

 

Nooo. Really? "Boat speed, angle to wind and TWS". Who would have thought???

Wait a minute. Isn't that exactly why we're looking at the videos, etc. and seeing what can be derived from them?

Oh, you should throw VMG in there too to keep the peanut gallery happy. I'll let you explain it to them.

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18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

In the original discussion, Smack and I were discussing wind strength and AWS.

But that discussion morphed into questions about the possible vectors (angles to true wind direction) that the AC75's might be capable of sailing. Further discussions included how much more efficient the apparent wind sailing rig of the AC75 is when, compared to a conventional mono set-up (being much smaller, lighter and using twin skins etc).

In other words, how well can theses fuckers point?

 

So, like the last AC, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that and fuck knows how may before that, will be decided on who has the best VMG around a racecourse?

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7 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

So, like the last AC, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that, the one before that and fuck knows how may before that, will be decided on who has the best VMG around a racecourse?

Outrageous suggestion!

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8 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Nooo. Really? "Boat speed, angle to wind and TWS". Who would have thought???

Wait a minute. Isn't that exactly why we're looking at the videos, etc. and seeing what can be derived from them?

Oh, you should throw VMG in there too to keep the peanut gallery happy. I'll let you explain it to them.

No need, most posters have an idea and don’t feel the need to post the obvious, there are a select handful that insist on wasting bandwidth with drivel

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9 minutes ago, Rushman said:

No need, most posters have an idea and don’t feel the need to post the obvious, there are a select handful that insist on wasting bandwidth with drivel

Cool. So what are the numbers? SBD and I would love to know.

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Your "perception"? So what are the angles? I assume you don't agree with david_r that they are most always more than 45° and almost never 30°?

And what are those modes you're referring to? I know the info exists somewhere - I just have very low confidence you either have insight into it, and/or understand it even if you do.

VMG includes a whole lot of factors - especially with these boats...and your upwind angle from tack to tack is absolutely one of those - especially if that's where your mark is. That's part of what Burns was talking about in his quote above. And though I'm sure you're brilliant at something in your life - it apparently ain't this. I'll stick with Burns, thanks.

PS - @cinnr - yes. SBD and I were talking about whether these boats have seen 55 knots AWS across the deck. I don't know one way or the other, I was just skeptical based on what I've seen in the videos thus far - at least for any appreciable amount of time. I have no doubt it's doable on these things, but that's why we were talking about angles/vectors and wind speed. uflummoxed just started howling about VMG in the middle of that discussion for some reason known only to him.

I guess my eyeballs don't count....

Because VMG is King my little cabbage. The yacht with the better VMG wins irrespective of what the highest AWS is in a race. But hey all power to you....do carry on the train wreck.

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3 hours ago, uflux said:

I guess my eyeballs don't count....

Because VMG is King my little cabbage. The yacht with the better VMG wins irrespective of what the highest AWS is in a race. But hey all power to you....do carry on the train wreck.

I think you meant to say "mon petit chou!" 

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On 8/22/2020 at 6:20 AM, Boink said:

 

.

Clown Pa fumbling for for anthing that supports his narrative, in any guise, flavour or snapshot.

he doesn't sail, in fact only had his first guest ride on a sailboat a few years ago. he did one race in a cruising tri.

he doesn't work

he lost his family

he's off his meds

it's all a troll.  literally all of it.

 

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Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

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10 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

No!

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21 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

Yes, because as annoying as it is, we all can scroll by or put it on ignore if we can't handle it. And misogyny was never a reason to ban someone hereabouts 

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having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

See one post up, same time posted as yours, fwiw

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37 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Quick informal survey:

Do you think spamdaddy's posts are useful enough to leave in the forum when he catches his next ban? Yes or no?

 

It wouldn’t make much of a difference because of all the responses would still be there clogging everything up.

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30 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

having reviewed a few hundred of the most recent at the request of the site, I find them to be almost 100% troll content.  It is literally impossible to find a post that includes anything that could be called factual, informative, or useful in any way.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

I eventually ignored him, but it only cut out so much. That being said, what I do continue to see being quoted, is blatantly racist ("te amed", "emeratis", etc..) with the remainder of his "content" having the sole intent of aggravating forum members. If my opinion counted for anything, it would certainly be to remove him and his hateful rhetoric.

 Additionally, I think a few of the folks who have fallen victim to his trolling/who can post more aggressively contest would benefit from a keyboard break as well.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he doesn't sail, in fact only had his first guest ride on a sailboat a few years ago. he did one race in a cruising tri.

he doesn't work

he lost his family

he's off his meds

it's all a troll.  literally all of it.

 

Do what you want, Clean. But none of the above is true.

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a review of your posts shows you are here for one reason only.

 

easy enough to prove any of it wrong. 

 

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48 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

See one post up, same time posted as yours, fwiw

Thanks for your input renn

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