Barnyb

Team NYYC

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FWIW,

Richard DeVos, Amway founder, owner of the Magic, and father-in-law of Betsy DeVos, dies at 92

https://articles.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2018/09/richard_devos_amway_founder_ow.amp

A better article

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/09/the-strange-ascent-of-betsy-devos-and-erik-prince/amp

... In Donald Trump, the Medicis of West Michigan have found someone they can do business with. The partnership has helped usher in our brutish times, and each day the slogan MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN feels less like a promise than a threat.

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On 9/7/2018 at 6:08 AM, Stingray~ said:

Richard DeVos, Amway founder, owner of the Magic, and father-in-law of Betsy DeVos, dies at 92

Hooray - pure scum...!! The Christian right and DeVoses can suck my brown arse. Hope AM is the first team eliminated. My loathing for everything the DeVoses stand for, knows no bounds.

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Hooray - pure scum...!! The Christian right and DeVoses can suck my brown arse. Hope AM is the first team eliminated. My loathing for everything the DeVoses stand for, knows no bounds.

Please include the fracker in your evening curses... Thakns.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Please include the fracker in your evening curses... Thakns.

Hydraulic fracturing is a despicable method of resource extraction. BA has sold his soul to the devil. 

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Hooray - pure scum...!! The Christian right and DeVoses can suck my brown arse. Hope AM is the first team eliminated. My loathing for everything the DeVoses stand for, knows no bounds.

For me this Team doesn't even qualify as an American Team as half of their Sailors come from NZ, GB and AUS. I'm a bit sad that Team USA21 is likely not going to make it.

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Let me get this right A4e, you hate everyone who is in, but everyone who has bailed or can't get there is 'wunderbar'!?

You are renowned for your shallow allegiance

I hope for another banning soon

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11 minutes ago, nav said:

Let me get this right A4e, you hate everyone who is in, but everyone who has bailed or can't get there is 'wunderbar'!?

You are renowned for your shallow allegiance

I hope for another banning soon

I'm not hating anyone and I'm not A4e. AM CEO Terry Hutchinson said he wants to grow the sport of sailing in the USA but I find that a little bit odd when you give Key Positions to Foreign Sailors.

And maybe you need to calm down a bit and get your facts straight when it comes to TEAM UK because none of what you said over there is true at all.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I'm not hating anyone and I'm not A4e. AM CEO Terry Hutchinson said he wants to grow the sport of sailing in the USA but I find that a little bit odd when you give Key Positions to Foreign Sailors.

And maybe you need to calm down a bit and get your facts straight when it comes to TEAM UK because none of what you said over there is true at all.

I would say the Alinghi team, and their AC success had a lot to do with the enthusiasm for sailing now showing out of Switzerland. Both Alinghi and Team Tilt are consistently winning regattas around the world, and guess what...that Alinghi team was predominantly Kiwi. 

 

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I'm not hating anyone and I'm not A4e. AM CEO Terry Hutchinson said he wants to grow the sport of sailing in the USA but I find that a little bit odd when you give Key Positions to Foreign Sailors.

Ineos' latest signing does much the same. LR has Spithill. Challengers claiming to be national champions is just BS.

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8 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

For me this Team doesn't even qualify as an American Team as half of their Sailors come from NZ, GB and AUS. I'm a bit sad that Team USA21 is likely not going to make it.

I agree, it is a joke to claim all this American Pride and then fill half of the team with foreign retreads.

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9 hours ago, Herfy said:

I agree, it is a joke to claim all this American Pride and then fill half of the team with foreign retreads.

Surely that is at least an improvement on the numbers from Oracle USA?

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On 9/13/2018 at 12:08 PM, Horn Rock said:

Hydraulic fracturing is a despicable method of resource extraction. BA has sold his soul to the devil. 

Sigh.

1. Frakking is a tiny part of Ineos activity.  Ratcliffe made his money the hard way by rescuing and turning around the European bulk chemical industries that nobody else wanted to own and then the noncompetitive chemical divisions of US companies that were hemorrhaging money and jobs .

2. Ineos is as big in biofuels as it is in frakking.

3. Why is hydraulic frakking despicable?  Shale gas produces power at a fraction of the CO2 emissions of coal.   The same folk who linked arms to try and prevent the shut down of the British coal mines are now opposed to extracting gas in the UK.  Its your country...do as you damn well please....but in the USA we have closed dozens of coal power plants and replaced them with gas.     

The problem with the Brits is that they dont really like to be seen to be successful.  It was nice to win the war but their favorite bit was the "blood sweat and tears" suffering in the middle.  Commercial success is really frowned upon....Freddie Laker was a hero because he ran an airline (planes and music is okay) and he went bust.  Ratcliffe makes them a bit uncomfortable because he worked hard, made lots of money and he isnt a "character"  like Richard Branson. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Sigh.

3. Why is hydraulic frakking despicable?  Shale gas produces power at a fraction of the CO2 emissions of coal.   The same folk who linked arms to try and prevent the shut down of the British coal mines are now opposed to extracting gas in the UK.  Its your country...do as you damn well please....but in the USA we have closed dozens of coal power plants and replaced them with gas.   

The environmental impacts of fracking are well documented.

First, burning shale gas extracted during fracking creates carbon pollution. Even more damning, methane, a greenhouse gas exponentially more potent than carbon, is released at multiple steps during the fracking process. Fracking released 5.3 billion pounds of methane into the atmosphere in 2014 during just one of these stages — well completion — as much global warming pollution as 22 coal-fired power plants produce in a year.

Perhaps most notorious for causing tap water to light on fire, fracking also poses critical risks to our water supplies. Fracking requires huge volumes of water for each well - water that is often needed for other uses or to maintain healthy aquatic ecosystems. At least 239 billion gallons of water have been used in fracking since 2005, an average of 3 million gallons per well.

Fracking uses vast quantities of chemicals known to harm human health, including hydrochloric acid and petroleum distillates, which can irritate the throat, nose, and and eyes; cause dizziness and nausea; and can include toxic and cancer-causing agents. People living or working nearby can be exposed to these chemicals if they enter drinking water after a spill or if they become airborne. Between 2005 and 2015, fracking used at least 23 billion pounds of toxic chemicals.

Most of the water and toxic chemicals used in fracking — sometimes along with naturally occurring radioactive materials — return to the surface as wastewater, causing greater risks to our waterways and drinking water. Fracking wastewater has leaked from retention ponds, been dumped into streams, and escaped from faulty disposal wells. In 2014 alone, fracking wells produced at least 14 billion gallons of wastewater.

Fracking has also left a legacy of marred landscapes across the country. Well pads, new access roads, pipelines and other infrastructure built for fracking turn forests and rural landscapes into industrial zones. Infrastructure to support fracking has directly damaged at least 675,000 acres of land since 2005, an area only slightly smaller than Yosemite National Park.

From contaminated water, to marred landscapes, to increased global warming pollution, fracking has been an environmental disaster.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/margie-alt/how-10-years-of-fracking_b_9806768.html

The above is a far from complete example of the downsides of fracking, but a little research will give you a greater awareness. In Australia fracking has been responsible for the contamination of underground aquifers (fresh water).

37 minutes ago, IPLore said:

The problem with the Brits is that they dont really like to be seen to be successful.

I'm not a Pom, but I'm sure the ones who do inhabit this board may take exception to that rather generalised view of their attitudes towards success. To me it sounds like you're saying that they're happy to be losers? Kind of odd thing to say really.....

 

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Even more damning, methane, a greenhouse gas exponentially more potent than carbon, is released at multiple steps during the fracking process. 

The comparison between methane and carbon dioxide is false because methane does not stay in the atmosphere for very long but carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere nearly forever.

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7 hours ago, IPLore said:

The problem with the Brits is that they dont really like to be seen to be successful. 

The problem with Americans is that many believe they understand the rest of the world based on what they see in the movies. Success is seen here as just fine. Here's a couple of things I don't much like about Ratcliffe.

1. He's a vocal backer of Brexit, which is an unfolding catastrophe. After telling us how great it will be for Britain, he's fucked off to live in Monaco.

2. He currently suing the National Trust to drill on land they own. That is a UK charity with 5M members, which is approaching 10% of the UK population. He's suing us all to drill on land we collectively own and want to conserve for future generations. He shows utter contempt for other people.

As far as fracking is concerned, I'm not opposed in principle, it's about risk and reward. However I live in southern England where most of our water supply comes from aquifers. There is no alternative supply. For us, risking pollution of aquifers to extract marginal quantities of gas would be just stupid.The reward is not worth the risk.

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11 hours ago, IPLore said:

The problem with the Brits is that they dont really like to be seen to be successful.

I think this is a clear misunderstanding of British culture around success.  There is nothing wrong with being successful in Britain.  What many Brits do however have a dislike for are people who show off their wealth and success in a brash and crass way.  Remaining classy and understated in such circumstances is a trait that many British people still value but that does not mean that success itself is frowned upon.

3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

After telling us how great it will be for Britain, he's fucked off to live in Monaco.

This is exactly the kind of thing that winds me up about Ratcliffe and others like him. On the one hand promoting Britain but then choosing to leave.

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1 hour ago, JMore said:

I think this is a clear misunderstanding of British culture around success.  There is nothing wrong with being successful in Britain.  What many Brits do however have a dislike for are people who show off their wealth and success in a brash and crass way.  Remaining classy and understated in such circumstances is a trait that many British people still value but that does not mean that success itself is frowned upon.

 

I think we agree. I tried to phrase my sentence carefully : 

Quote

"they dont like to be seen to be succesful"

I think Jim Ratcliffe is archetypal understated Brit'. Before the frakking debate and before the Ineos AC challenge, very few people had heard of him. The Daily Express calls him "The Richest man you never heard of" .  He is worth over $20bn. From our perspective that is refreshing. We have daily tweets from someone probably worth less than $1bn who tells us he is worth over $10bn .

Here is what strikes me as interesting about Jim Ratcliffe;

1. He started life in a council house (low income housing as we call it over here). No silver spoon.

2. He worked as an industrial chemist until starting his won company at 40.  He spent his time in the trenches. He is not a tech wunderkid.

3. Ineos has been successful in a tough industry. He has succeeded where large corporations like BP,  ICI, Bayer and DuPont have failed. His reputation is that of being an extraordinary manager.

4. He has hiked to both poles, North and South pole.  That is a very British kind of adventure but it is also hard.

5. Last year, over the age of 60 , he completed a full Iron man marathon in under 15 hours.

6. he is building a version of the Land Rover Defender because the Indian owners have made it too poncy.

7. His idea of celebrating his wealth is taking a one month vacation on a motorbike in Africa.

I dont know, but trying to be objective rather than swayed by frakking phobia, I would not underestimate the British Challenge.  You have some great sailors  backed by someone who seems from afar to be a very determined guy who knows how to get things done.

Our NYYC challenge is manned by a bunch of TP52 sailors backed by an inherited fortune made from pyramid selling of beauty and household products and members of the New York Yacht Club. I hope we beat you, but I'm a bit nervous.

 

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

 

1. He's a vocal backer of Brexit, which is an unfolding catastrophe. After telling us how great it will be for Britain, he's fucked off to live in Monaco.

 

I agree with Dog on this.  Brexit makes zero sense. It makes even less sense for the largest private owner of manufacturing plants in the UK.   He must have an illogical streak.

Some have suggested this as an explanation for the Brexit vote, the nearest thing to Turkeys voting in favor of Thanksgiving

IMG_0634.thumb.JPG.88d8be06ea0f3936fdfbe60112cb2bfd.JPG

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On 9/14/2018 at 4:09 AM, Herfy said:

I agree, it is a joke to claim all this American Pride and then fill half of the team with foreign retreads.

That's only one Point though. What's really odd is what Hap Fauth said in this Tweet:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1029751109781540869

I don't see any grassroots at all.

Guess who placed 1-3 in the Red Bull Youth America's Cup last year:

# 1 Britain

# 2 New Zealand

# 3 Switzerland

If they wanted to do the grassroots thing they should have sponsored a Team in the Extreme Sailing Series or the ARGO Team who is sailing under American Flag in the GC32 Series.

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On 9/14/2018 at 12:50 AM, dogwatch said:

Ineos' latest signing does much the same. LR has Spithill. Challengers claiming to be national champions is just BS.

This is not accurate. The only two Foreigners on the Sailing Team are Jono Macbeth and Iain Jensen and maybe Luke Parkinson should he join the Team. Andy McLean has dual citizenship NZL and GBR and so does Joey Newton with AUS/GBR.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

(...)

Our NYYC challenge is manned by a bunch of TP52 sailors backed by an inherited fortune made from pyramid selling of beauty and household products and members of the New York Yacht Club. I hope we beat you, but I'm a bit nervous.

The world is rarely good vs. bad. Most of the time it's bad vs. bad.

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52 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This is not accurate. The only two Foreigners on the Sailing Team are Jono Macbeth and Iain Jensen and maybe Luke Parkinson should he join the Team. Andy McLean has dual citizenship NZL and GBR and so does Joey Newton with AUS/GBR.

Just a little bit pregnant then.

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

Some have suggested this as an explanation for the Brexit vote, the nearest thing to Turkeys voting in favor of Thanksgiving

IMG_0634.thumb.JPG.88d8be06ea0f3936fdfbe60112cb2bfd.JPG

Not really as British turkeys don't fear Thanksgiving. It is however clear that the regions that voted strongly for Brexit are also the ones who will worst affected.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This is not accurate. The only two Foreigners on the Sailing Team are Jono Macbeth and Iain Jensen and maybe Luke Parkinson should he join the Team. Andy McLean has dual citizenship NZL and GBR and so does Joey Newton with AUS/GBR.

Perhaps this table is helpful :

80793498_ACTeams.PNG.ac4c6e1523f7f8904f4eab2a90a5db93.PNG

:rolleyes:

 

Hat, coat....good bye

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Perhaps this table is helpful :

80793498_ACTeams.PNG.ac4c6e1523f7f8904f4eab2a90a5db93.PNG

:rolleyes:

 

Hat, coat....good bye

First row is yacht club country though eh?

Then you can split the money row into private benefactors vs sponsors as these are different. From what I can tell ETNZ are the only team not entirely back rolled by a benefactor?

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15 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

First row is yacht club country though eh?

Then you can split the money row into private benefactors vs sponsors as these are different. From what I can tell ETNZ are the only team not entirely back rolled by a benefactor?

The hardest team to decide country of origin was the Dubai team.    Do I go by where the majority of the money came from (Dubai)?  Do I go by where the skipper is from (Australia)?     I felt I couldn't go by the crew because almost every team has kiwi crew.

So to be consistent across everyone, I followed the money.  

To be fair to the Arab team, they have a kiwi helm and are challenging from a NZ club, so at least it has a kiwi flavor to it.

 

 

(Am I trolling the NZ fans who are always going on and on about nationality of the teams? Maybe a bit....)

67227232_trollingforkiwis.JPG.fa2bbebbfe247b09418f791dcbe69b90.JPG

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

The hardest team to decide country of origin was the Dubai team.    Do I go by where the majority of the money came from (Dubai)?  Do I go by where the skipper is from (Australia)?     I felt I couldn't go by the crew because almost every team has kiwi crew.

So to be consistent across everyone, I followed the money.  

To be fair to the Arab team, they have a kiwi helm and are challenging from a NZ club, so at least it has a kiwi flavor to it.

 

 

(Am I trolling the NZ fans who are always going on and on about nationality of the teams? Maybe a bit....)

67227232_trollingforkiwis.JPG.fa2bbebbfe247b09418f791dcbe69b90.JPG

To your closing comment you have and judging by the sounds of silence you’ve  done a stellar job of it :) I’m sure they will recover soon and think of a way to spin it around but well played ! 

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dogwatch makes valid arguments about the serious risks of frakking to regions that rely on aquifers for their water, and there’s a valid argument to be made about his Brexit stance, but overall the guy seems fairly impressive. He speaks well too, far better than the likes of Sir Keif.

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12 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I live in southern England where most of our water supply comes from aquifers. There is no alternative supply.

For what I have seen of southern england, water is not in short supply :)

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

Perhaps this table is helpful :

80793498_ACTeams.PNG.ac4c6e1523f7f8904f4eab2a90a5db93.PNG

:rolleyes:

 

Hat, coat....good bye

Sorry but you are wrong on AM:

Here is their Sailing Team...

SAILING TEAM

New York Yacht Club American Magic

Skipper & Executive Director:

Terry Hutchinson (Annapolis, Maryland, United States)

Helms/Tacticians:

Dean Barker (Auckland, New Zealand)

Andrew Campbell (San Diego, California, United States)

Bora Gulari (Detroit, Michigan, United States)

Ian Moore (Cowes, Great Britain)

Sail Trimmers:

Trevor Burd (Marblehead, Massachusetts, United States)

Maciel Cicchetti (Mar del Plata, Argentina)

Paul Goodison (Sheffield, Great Britain)

David Hughes (Miami, Florida, United States)

Specialists:

Matt Cassidy (San Diego, California, United States)

Sean Clarkson (Mill Valley, California - Nationality: New Zealand)

Jim Turner (Auckland, New Zealand)

Nick Dana (Newport, Rhode Island, United States)

Grinders:

Cooper Dressler (Coronado, California, United States)

Luke Muller (Ft. Pierce, Florida, United States)

Caleb Paine (San Diego, California, United States)

Luke Payne (Fremantle, Australia)

Joe Spooner (Auckland, New Zealand)

Alex Sinclair (Newport, Rhode Island, United States)

Head Coach:

James Lyne (Granville, Vermont, United States)

 

How can you say Crew: 11 Americans. That is simply not true. Luke Payne & Joe Spooner are from Australia and New Zealand respectivly.

19 Sailors are apparently under contract, 8 of them have a Foreign Nationality. That's 42 % Percent.

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

The hardest team to decide country of origin was the Dubai team.    Do I go by where the majority of the money came from (Dubai)?  Do I go by where the skipper is from (Australia)?     I felt I couldn't go by the crew because almost every team has kiwi crew.

So to be consistent across everyone, I followed the money.  

To be fair to the Arab team, they have a kiwi helm and are challenging from a NZ club, so at least it has a kiwi flavor to it.

 

 

(Am I trolling the NZ fans who are always going on and on about nationality of the teams? Maybe a bit....)

67227232_trollingforkiwis.JPG.fa2bbebbfe247b09418f791dcbe69b90.JPG

Appreciate the niggle, :-) but I do think there are two different types of teams, the private endeavour, and the sponsored consortium.

I think if the team was funded by private capital - the provenance of such capital is clearly more important in the teams 'nationality'. Clearly if someone has personal wealth and wants to have a tilt at the cup they would do it from their own country (even if it means a landlocked one!). You can see with so many AC teams going back to the beginning. Arguably the sponsored consortium is a more modern component to the cup and as it stands today ETNZ is the last of those left (hopefully we'll get a couple more). Matteo de Nora is an interesting consideration - why would a Swiss-Italian want to put any money into what was at the time a losing team from the other side of the world - fortunately MdN has shared his views on this many times. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11886240

But where you have a team that is not dependant on an individual benefactor, then they need to resort to sponsorship, and this is what you see with ETNZ. In some ways it makes life harder, but it might also make a more sustainable team that doesn't live or die on the commitment of one owner.

So when you consider national sporting teams across the world, competing in international competitions, some of those teams have sponsors. Some of those sponsors originate from foreign countries or are global brands without effecting the nationality of that team. Keep an eye out and you'll notice it a lot.

It might confuse some that one of the global brands that sponsors ETNZ has part of another country in its name, but it shouldn't really. ;-)

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

To be fair to the Arab team, they have a kiwi helm and are challenging from a NZ club, so at least it has a kiwi flavor to it

A nationality rule requiring indigenous sponsorship would be a spectacular own goal. We may be parochial but we're not stupid. Our number one sporting team (All Blacks) is sponsored by a dodgy American Insurance company and German footwear giant, so we have form in this area.

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4 hours ago, maxmini said:

To your closing comment you have and judging by the sounds of silence you’ve  done a stellar job of it :) I’m sure they will recover soon and think of a way to spin it around but well played ! 

The point of trolling is to actually get a (angry) response - but no surprise you of all people would demonstrate ignorance of basic facts...

Much like how world sport and global sponsorship has worked in the last half a century seems to have passed you by too but well played!

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6 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Sorry but you are wrong on AM:

Here is their Sailing Team...

SAILING TEAM

New York Yacht Club American Magic

Skipper & Executive Director:

Terry Hutchinson (Annapolis, Maryland, United States)

Helms/Tacticians:

Dean Barker (Auckland, New Zealand)

Andrew Campbell (San Diego, California, United States)

Bora Gulari (Detroit, Michigan, United States)

Ian Moore (Cowes, Great Britain)

Sail Trimmers:

Trevor Burd (Marblehead, Massachusetts, United States)

Maciel Cicchetti (Mar del Plata, Argentina)

Paul Goodison (Sheffield, Great Britain)

David Hughes (Miami, Florida, United States)

Specialists:

Matt Cassidy (San Diego, California, United States)

Sean Clarkson (Mill Valley, California - Nationality: New Zealand)

Jim Turner (Auckland, New Zealand)

Nick Dana (Newport, Rhode Island, United States)

Grinders:

Cooper Dressler (Coronado, California, United States)

Luke Muller (Ft. Pierce, Florida, United States)

Caleb Paine (San Diego, California, United States)

Luke Payne (Fremantle, Australia)

Joe Spooner (Auckland, New Zealand)

Alex Sinclair (Newport, Rhode Island, United States)

Head Coach:

James Lyne (Granville, Vermont, United States)

 

How can you say Crew: 11 Americans. That is simply not true. Luke Payne & Joe Spooner are from Australia and New Zealand respectivly.

19 Sailors are apparently under contract, 8 of them have a Foreign Nationality. That's 42 % Percent.

How can he say the crew includes 11 Americans? 

Because He can count and do simple arithmetic?

 

19-8 = 11

 

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9 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

How can he say the crew includes 11 Americans? 

Because He can count and do simple arithmetic?

 

19-8 = 11

 

Correct. The following Americans are in the sailing team for the American sponsored and American skippered team America Magic:

1. Terry Hutchinson (Annapolis, Maryland, United States)

2. Andrew Campbell (San Diego, California, United States)

3. Bora Gulari (Detroit, Michigan, United States)

4. Trevor Burd (Marblehead, Massachusetts, United States)

5. David Hughes (Miami, Florida, United States)

6. Matt Cassidy (San Diego, California, United States)

7. Nick Dana (Newport, Rhode Island, United States)

8. Cooper Dressler (Coronado, California, United States)

9. Luke Muller (Ft. Pierce, Florida, United States)

10. Caleb Paine (San Diego, California, United States)

11. Alex Sinclair (Newport, Rhode Island, United States)

The following citizens of the United Arab Emirates are in the sailing team for the Emirates sponsored and Australian skippered team, Emirates Team NZ.

0

Like many other teams, both have a heavy component of kiwis on board.  The Emirates team naturally has more kiwis because they couldnt find any arabs, which is a shame because they could do more for the grass roots of Middle East sailing.

I have a lot of respect for Ian Walker who went to great efforts to find and train some local sailors from the UAE for his Volvo campaign.

 

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12 hours ago, rh2600 said:

It might confuse some that ETNZ has part of another country in its name, but it shouldn't really. ;-)

Not at all.  I think it is great to have a multinational entry. 

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By that stretch, then France doesn't even need to build up a team to be literally into the winning team. Wait until they drink the Champagne!

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

The Emirates team naturally has more kiwis because they couldnt find any arabs, which is a shame because they could do more for the grass roots of Middle East sailing.

When the AC inevitably transitions to foiling feluccas, I'm sure we'll pick up a few Arab crew......

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Does then Amway money really originate in the US? AFAIK, it's a company that sells its stuff all around the world. Where do the nationality trolls want to stop?

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"What did you do today, honey?"

"Well, I spent a good portion of my day arguing with people on the internet about the nationality of people on an America's Cup team roster that has yet to be finalized and will likely change many times before the event."

"Hmmm, well did you win the argument?"

"No,  you see it's not like that...we just spend all day going around in circles until someone stops responding, and then we pick it up again a few days later without any real resolution."

"Interesting.  Honey, I want you take this meat tenderizer, and I want you to smash yourself in the dick.   Once the pain subsides, I want you to go out and buy a set of golf clubs because you clearly have too much fucking time on your hands."

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5 hours ago, RumLine said:

"What did you do today, honey?"

"Well, I spent a good portion of my day arguing with people on the internet about the nationality of people on an America's Cup team roster that has yet to be finalized and will likely change many times before the event."

"Hmmm, well did you win the argument?"

"No,  you see it's not like that...we just spend all day going around in circles until someone stops responding, and then we pick it up again a few days later without any real resolution."

"Interesting.  Honey, I want you take this meat tenderizer, and I want you to smash yourself in the dick.   Once the pain subsides, I want you to go out and buy a set of golf clubs because you clearly have too much fucking time on your hands."

+ 1. I think the Emirati team should be allowed as many kiwis as they damn well like.

 

I dont know what all the fuss is about.

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

+ 1. I think the Emirati team should be allowed as many kiwis as they damn well like.

 

I dont know what all the fuss is about.

we get it... their major sponsor is a foreign brand... you aren't saying anything new or insightful - if that troll is the only thing you've got then best you jog on...

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9 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Does then Amway money really originate in the US? AFAIK, it's a company that sells its stuff all around the world. Where do the nationality trolls want to stop?

I heard that Amway is on the nose in the US, and that the growth was coming from new markets like China. Direct marketing is a crock imo. Selling crap to your friends until they all get pissed off with it. "New Ways" and "Mannatech" went through my area some years ago with the same pyramid model. I think they've gone belly up. If it can't compete on the shelves with other similar crap, then I'm not interested.

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

we get it... their major sponsor is a foreign brand...

One of the reasons one admires the Emirates team so much is that there is no "foreign" or "domestic". They are a truly multinational team. Its not only their sponsors that come from all around the world. The Italian/swiss team principal, the Australian skipper,  the Kiwi helm and their brilliant English and French design leaders work together in harmony showing that the truly great teams transcend national boundaries. 

They will be hard to beat.

But this thread is about the American team.  

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40 minutes ago, IPLore said:

One of the reasons one admires the Emirates team so much is that there is no "foreign" or "domestic". They are a truly multinational team. Its not only their sponsors that come from all around the world. The Italian/swiss team principal, the Australian skipper,  the Kiwi helm and their brilliant English and French design leaders work together in harmony showing that the truly great teams transcend national boundaries. 

They will be hard to beat.

But this thread is about the American team.  

I'm glad you admire ETNZ.  But, enough of this droll fucking "Emirati," "Arab" shit. You may try to defend it as a sly joke but it is insulting to Emiratis and Kiwis alike.

The national team is Kiwi to its roots, regardless of how you chose to spin it.  It competes, and wins, under the burgee of the Royal New Zealand Squadron. What's more it can claim a three-decade-long history dating back to New Zealand's first America's Cup challenge in Perth, WA,

And it enjoys the support of the NZ Government. Well, most of the time!

ETNZ is  headquartered in Auckland, NZ, with an exclusively  NZ Board of Directors and long-standing Kiwi management in the form of CEO Grant Dalton and COO Kevin Shoebridge, both of whom made a name for themselves with early Whitbread Race successes before transitioning to the America's Cup scene. Like all AC competitors it recruits internationally. Its sailing team is almost exclusively Kiwi, while design, construction and support is more heterogenous.

As you correctly note, ETNZ is backed by Italian/Swiss Matteo de Nora as "Team Principal", enjoys sponsorship from an international airline based in Dubai that also backs a wide range of international sporting endeavours, and has an Aussie skipper/mainsheet trimmer in Glenn Ashby.  Helmsman Pete Burling is an America's Cup winner as well as an Olympic Gold Medalist. Space does not permit enumerating his full sailing credentials, much less those of the rest of his team.

As for your American team, they have the money, honey.  Also some good people with past history and AC depth of experience. The question is whether they can coalesce into a winning entity in three short years. 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

One of the reasons one admires the Emirates team so much is that there is no "foreign" or "domestic". They are a truly multinational team. Its not only their sponsors that come from all around the world. The Italian/swiss team principal, the Australian skipper,  the Kiwi helm and their brilliant English and French design leaders work together in harmony showing that the truly great teams transcend national boundaries. 

They will be hard to beat.

But this thread is about the American team.  

Dude this Emirati team BS is getting old. They are a Kiwi Team. They had one Aussie on the boat. The CEO is a Kiwi, the helmsman is a Kiwi, the majority of the crew are Kiwi, the culture of the team is Kiwi, so enough with the "Emirati BS" They are just a naming rights sponsor.

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On 7/4/2018 at 2:04 AM, dogwatch said:

There's an awful lot of grey hair in that picture. I don't think the AC75s are going to be grey-hair friendly.

Agreed and the days of the NYYC winning are in the history books alone.!  American Magic always loses to Black Magic......

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5 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

I'm glad you admire ETNZ.  But, enough of this droll fucking "Emirati," "Arab" shit. You may try to defend it as a sly joke but it is insulting to Emiratis and Kiwis alike.

The national team is Kiwi to its roots, regardless of how you chose to spin it.  It competes, and wins, under the burgee of the Royal New Zealand Squadron. What's more it can claim a three-decade-long history dating back to New Zealand's first America's Cup challenge in Perth, WA,

And it enjoys the support of the NZ Government. Well, most of the time!

ETNZ is  headquartered in Auckland, NZ, with an exclusively  NZ Board of Directors and long-standing Kiwi management in the form of CEO Grant Dalton and COO Kevin Shoebridge, both of whom made a name for themselves with early Whitbread Race successes before transitioning to the America's Cup scene. Like all AC competitors it recruits internationally. Its sailing team is almost exclusively Kiwi, while design, construction and support is more heterogenous.

As you correctly note, ETNZ is backed by Italian/Swiss Matteo de Nora as "Team Principal", enjoys sponsorship from an international airline based in Dubai that also backs a wide range of international sporting endeavours, and has an Aussie skipper/mainsheet trimmer in Glenn Ashby.  Helmsman Pete Burling is an America's Cup winner as well as an Olympic Gold Medalist. Space does not permit enumerating his full sailing credentials, much less those of the rest of his team.

As for your American team, they have the money, honey.  Also some good people with past history and AC depth of experience. The question is whether they can coalesce into a winning entity in three short years. 

Finally!

In all seriousness the New Zealand team is a New Zealand team and hugely respected as such. 

Historically the America's Cup has always had an element of recruiting talent internationally, dating right back to the matches between Columbia and Shamrock.   So when some NZ fans started ragging on the American team for not being "American " enough, I thought I would make the handles hot to hold.

In the history of the AC, there have been different periods when the crews were predominantly international (1901) and predominantly national (12m era). However the big inflection point occurred when designers went international. The rules used to require " the yacht is to be designed by citizens of the nation it represents"   Some of us can remember the acrimony around whether Australia II keel had been tank tested in the Netherlands. It all seems quaint by today's standards. 

What is interesting about the current defender and three challengers is that there exists the possibility that the helms of all 4 boats might be national citizens of the challenging and defending clubs/nations. IMHO,  it is viscerally easier to support a national team when the helm is a national.

I will be supporting America Magic but my money is on  Ineos and ETNZ.  Both have fully committed to foiling talent in their sailing team and design team.  America Magic feels like a TP52 program and I dont think that is a winning formula.

 I'm rooting for the home team and I hope they turn it around.

 

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I might add,emerati brings steini to the party packed in salt ice in the back of a ute.

That's nationality

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6 hours ago, IPLore said:

Finally!

In all seriousness the New Zealand team is a New Zealand team and hugely respected as such. 

Historically the America's Cup has always had an element of recruiting talent internationally, dating right back to the matches between Columbia and Shamrock.   So when some NZ fans started ragging on the American team for not being "American " enough, I thought I would make the handles hot to hold.

In the history of the AC, there have been different periods when the crews were predominantly international (1901) and predominantly national (12m era). However the big inflection point occurred when designers went international. The rules used to require " the yacht is to be designed by citizens of the nation it represents"   Some of us can remember the acrimony around whether Australia II keel had been tank tested in the Netherlands. It all seems quaint by today's standards. 

What is interesting about the current defender and three challengers is that there exists the possibility that the helms of all 4 boats might be national citizens of the challenging and defending clubs/nations. IMHO,  it is viscerally easier to support a national team when the helm is a national.

I will be supporting America Magic but my money is on  Ineos and ETNZ.  Both have fully committed to foiling talent in their sailing team and design team.  America Magic feels like a TP52 program and I dont think that is a winning formula.

 I'm rooting for the home team and I hope they turn it around.

 

Which kiwi fans have been accusing AM of not being an American team? Could have sworn it was American fans...

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6 hours ago, IPLore said:

Finally!

In all seriousness the New Zealand team is a New Zealand team and hugely respected as such. 

Historically the America's Cup has always had an element of recruiting talent internationally, dating right back to the matches between Columbia and Shamrock.   So when some NZ fans started ragging on the American team for not being "American " enough, I thought I would make the handles hot to hold.

In the history of the AC, there have been different periods when the crews were predominantly international (1901) and predominantly national (12m era). However the big inflection point occurred when designers went international. The rules used to require " the yacht is to be designed by citizens of the nation it represents"   Some of us can remember the acrimony around whether Australia II keel had been tank tested in the Netherlands. It all seems quaint by today's standards. 

What is interesting about the current defender and three challengers is that there exists the possibility that the helms of all 4 boats might be national citizens of the challenging and defending clubs/nations. IMHO,  it is viscerally easier to support a national team when the helm is a national.

I will be supporting America Magic but my money is on  Ineos and ETNZ.  Both have fully committed to foiling talent in their sailing team and design team.  America Magic feels like a TP52 program and I dont think that is a winning formula.

 I'm rooting for the home team and I hope they turn it around.

 

 

The rules used to require " the yacht is to be designed by citizens of the nation it represents" 

Think you can find a quote on that? Was this really in your lifetime?

 

Has the ETNZ skipper for AC36 actually been announced? Link?

 

the helms of all 4 boats might be national citizens of the challenging and defending clubs/nations.

The only thing we can say for certain is that they will be either 'citizens' or that they will meet the residency requirements of the Protocol. The AC has seen 'Citizenship of convenience' for decades to the point it has no agreed meaning. Are you seriously going to pretend that AC34 Kiwi helm/AC35 Japanese helm Barker now counts for you and the audience as a readily identifiable US citizen :lol:

 

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29 minutes ago, nav said:

 

The rules used to require " the yacht is to be designed by citizens of the nation it represents" 

Think you can find a quote on that? Was this really in your lifetime?

 

 

Prior to the 1987 AC, the yacht had to be designed by citizens of the nation it represented.  Although the rule was relaxed for the 1987 AC in Freemantle, all of the challengers and defenders were designed by a local national.

The first yacht to compete in an AC that was not designed by a citizen of the nation it represented was Il Moro de Venicia in 1992; skippered by Paul Cayard and designed by German Frers.

Yes 1992 was in my lifetime.

 

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Thanks, but not seeing the quote from the DOG?

& while you are looking.......

Is Glen skipper?

Is Dean American?

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Prior to the 1987 AC, the yacht had to be designed by citizens of the nation it represented.  Although the rule was relaxed for the 1987 AC in Freemantle, all of the challengers and defenders were designed by a local national.

The first yacht to compete in an AC that was not designed by a citizen of the nation it represented was Il Moro de Venicia in 1992; skippered by Paul Cayard and designed by German Frers.

Yes 1992 was in my lifetime.

 

Wasn't Johan Valentijn Dutch? Designed Liberty in "83 and worked with Lexcen on Australia. It's an international event and has been for a long time. Since the beginning.  The Kiwi's have even had an American helmsman and designer. 

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The AC is a design contest. TNZ last wing was designed by an aussie, the boat by a french and a brit.

I don't mind, but the same fans who pat their shoulder telling that others teams have kiwis,.... then turn their coat to tell that the team is what counts.

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20 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Wasn't Johan Valentijn Dutch? Designed Liberty in "83 and worked with Lexcen on Australia. It's an international event and has been for a long time. Since the beginning.  The Kiwi's have even had an American helmsman and designer. 

 Johan was born in the Netherlands but he came to the US in 1971 to work for Sparkman and Stephens and became a citizen.  His office used to be in NYC and I think he ended up in Wisconsin.

In 1983, they were very strict on applying the designer rule. 

Rumors were rife that the winged keel had not been designed by Ben Lexcen but by some designers in the Netherlands. Alan Bond has to refute a challenge from the NYYC. The Dutch engineers testified that they had merely been hired to tank test the Australian designed keel. In 2009  the leader of the Dutch team of naval architects, Piet van Oossanen claimed responsibility for the original design of the keel’s winglets and later even claimed he had accepted $25,000 in hush money from Bond to testify that all they had done was tank testing.   I think that the truth eventually came out from Joop Sloof just a couple of years ago (2016).  Joop was the brilliant aeronautical engineer employed by Van Oosanen who had worked most closely on the winglets with Ben. Paraphrasing, he said that Ben and he had independently concluded that winglets could work on a keel, and yes the Nederlands tanks allowed Joop to refine the detail of the design BUT at the end of the day, it was Ben who wanted to investigate the effect of winglets, Ben who understood the whole design and how winglets worked within the whole design. As the guy who did all the heavy lifting in the Netherlands facility, long after everyone else was dead, Joop still feels the credit for putting wings on a 12 meter belongs to Ben Lexcen.  Lot of kudos to Mr. Sloof.

Interestingly, Johan V knew about the wings because he was a friend of Joop Sloof and Joop had told him way back in 1983 that he had worked on designing wings for Australia II.  Johan even mentioned Joop's role in a New York Times article in 1985 about his work on designing Eagle. 

Johan was the cause of the rules of citizenship being tightened up.   He was one of the hot shots of his day in 12 meter design.  I think there is little doubt that he helped Ben on Australia 1 in 1977 and  helped the French team in 1980.  The designer nationality rule was very much in place (issued as a rule by the NYYC as their interpretation of the DOG and part of the rules agreed to accept a challenge) in both those years.  I think that Johan got round it be simply obtaining Australian nationality in 1977 and French in 1980.   So NYYC tightened up the nationality requirement.  

 

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

 It's an international event and has been for a long time. Since the beginning.  The Kiwi's have even had an American helmsman and designer. 

Once the designer rule  was lifted, the kiwis have certainly sought designers wherever they think best.

But I thought that the one unique feature of both the Brits and the Kiwis is that their boats have always been steered by a national.  I could be wrong.

I think Rod Davis had already represented NZ in the Olympics and had become a NZ citizen by the time he helmed a NZ boat.

I would fail the test if asked who steered Michael Fay's DOG monster vs the catamaran in 1988 . I have no idea and cant be bothered to Google.

 

I 100% agree the teams have been very international since 1987.  Its become more like Formula 1.  As a spectator I think its easier to get behind a boat driven by a national.  If the American Challenge really wants to spend a ton of money to make their challenge look suddenly competitive, there is one guy they should hire and he is a New Zealander.   But as an sailing fan and an American I hope he is sailing for NZ .

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The AC is a design contest. TNZ last wing was designed by an aussie, the boat by a french and a brit.

I don't mind, but the same fans who pat their shoulder telling that others teams have kiwis,.... then turn their coat to tell that the team is what counts.

Bernasconi is an NZ resident... to IPLore's point he might have been born in another country, but he's a Kiwi now...

 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

I would fail the test if asked who steered Michael Fay's DOG monster

David Barnes steered KZ1, and yeah he was a Kiwi.

 

1 hour ago, IPLore said:

there is one guy they should hire and he is a New Zealander.

I assume you mean Coutts?

 

1 hour ago, IPLore said:

But as an sailing fan and an American I hope he is sailing for NZ .

While Dalts is running NZ's AC efforts Coutts will never get a look in, and that's no bad thing. Still a lot of antipathy towards him because of the Alinghi affair. As much as I respect Coutts and Butterworth etc as sailors, it wouldn't bother me if they never represented NZ ever again. Besides, they're an out going generation. Burling, Tuke, and other younger guys are the future of NZ sailing, and it has to said, they've been well mentored by the likes of Dalt's, Shoey, Davies, and Ashby, plus probably others. One of the reasons ETNZ has been so strong over the years is the continuity of effort, something other nations haven't really matched, with the exception may be of Oracle. 

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18 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Bernasconi is an NZ resident... to IPLore's point he might have been born in another country, but he's a Kiwi now...

 

Of course. When the Kiwi's use someone from another country they are a Kiwi as soon as they get the papers. When someone like Spithill only has an American wife and kids he is still an Aussie. You faggots would seriously fit right in as Trump supporters. 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

 Johan was born in the Netherlands but he came to the US in 1971 to work for Sparkman and Stephens and became a citizen.  His office used to be in NYC and I think he ended up in Wisconsin.

In 1983, they were very strict on applying the designer rule. 

Rumors were rife that the winged keel had not been designed by Ben Lexcen but by some designers in the Netherlands. Alan Bond has to refute a challenge from the NYYC. The Dutch engineers testified that they had merely been hired to tank test the Australian designed keel. In 2009  the leader of the Dutch team of naval architects, Piet van Oossanen claimed responsibility for the original design of the keel’s winglets and later even claimed he had accepted $25,000 in hush money from Bond to testify that all they had done was tank testing.   I think that the truth eventually came out from Joop Sloof just a couple of years ago (2016).  Joop was the brilliant aeronautical engineer employed by Van Oosanen who had worked most closely on the winglets with Ben. Paraphrasing, he said that Ben and he had independently concluded that winglets could work on a keel, and yes the Nederlands tanks allowed Joop to refine the detail of the design BUT at the end of the day, it was Ben who wanted to investigate the effect of winglets, Ben who understood the whole design and how winglets worked within the whole design. As the guy who did all the heavy lifting in the Netherlands facility, long after everyone else was dead, Joop still feels the credit for putting wings on a 12 meter belongs to Ben Lexcen.  Lot of kudos to Mr. Sloof.

Interestingly, Johan V knew about the wings because he was a friend of Joop Sloof and Joop had told him way back in 1983 that he had worked on designing wings for Australia II.  Johan even mentioned Joop's role in a New York Times article in 1985 about his work on designing Eagle. 

Johan was the cause of the rules of citizenship being tightened up.   He was one of the hot shots of his day in 12 meter design.  I think there is little doubt that he helped Ben on Australia 1 in 1977 and  helped the French team in 1980.  The designer nationality rule was very much in place (issued as a rule by the NYYC as their interpretation of the DOG and part of the rules agreed to accept a challenge) in both those years.  I think that Johan got round it be simply obtaining Australian nationality in 1977 and French in 1980.   So NYYC tightened up the nationality requirement.  

 

He's fucking Dutch. Just because the US gave him some fucking papers quickly doesn't change it. That guy probably has 5 passports.

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2 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Of course. When the Kiwi's use someone from another country they are a Kiwi as soon as they get the papers. When someone like Spithill only has an American wife and kids he is still an Aussie. You faggots would seriously fit right in as Trump supporters. 

Where does JS live mate?

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46 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Bernasconi is an NZ resident... to IPLore's point he might have been born in another country, but he's a Kiwi now...

 

I know, but it's ironic compared to the comments about Jimmy Spithill at the time. And, I don't have the design member list, but lots of them were not from kiwis. Again, I don't mind, AC is international, but ffs, stop your double standards.

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I know, but it's ironic compared to the comments about Jimmy Spithill at the time. And, I don't have the design member list, but lots of them were not from kiwis. Again, I don't mind, AC is international, but ffs, stop your double standards.

Have I ever accused JS of not being an American?

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

You faggots would seriously fit right in as Trump supporters. 

Trump grabs them, and you lick em. Is that how it goes?

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40 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Have I ever accused JS of not being an American?

He's an Italian now isn't he?

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

Have I ever accused JS of not being an American?

Dunno know if it's you or another, but it was said, repetetively.

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Dunno know if it's you or another, but it was said, repetetively.

cool story bro

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4 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Johan is fucking Dutch. Just because the US gave him some fucking papers quickly doesn't change it. That guy probably has 5 passports.

Turns out that he is now living in the United Emirates. I kid you not. Does that make him a kiwi?

Its amazing to me that he was at Sparkman and Stephens in 1971, designed AC 12 meters Magic, Liberty and Eagle  and is still building yachts (very large ones). 

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^

When you mentioned kiwi skipper making a difference you weren't seriously thinking RC?

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11 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

 

 

I assume you mean Coutts?

Duh.  No. If Coutts thought he was currently the fastest foiling driver in the world, he would have been driving.  American Magic lacks a credible helmsperson. If money and nationality were no object for the American team, how do they fix that situation? For Pete's sake!

 they've been well mentored by the likes of Dalt's, Shoey, Davies, and Ashby, plus probably others.

Do you mean Rod Davis the Olympic gold medalist for the USA and skipper of American Eagle in 1987?

or do you mean Rod Davis helm of New Zealand Challenge in 1992 AC 

or Rod Davis helmsperson for One Australia in 1995

or Rod Davis the sailing coach for Italian team for the next two America's Cups

Before returning to Emirates Team New Zealand, where I agree he has made an unmistakable contribution to NZ yachting and resides as a true New Zealander.

Russell Coutts has made an even more incredible contribution to NZ yachting:, but no, that is not who I meant.

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10 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Do you mean Rod Davis the Olympic gold medalist for the USA and skipper of American Eagle in 1987?

or do you mean Rod Davis helm of New Zealand Challenge in 1992 AC 

or Rod Davis helmsperson for One Australia in 1995

or Rod Davis the sailing coach for Italian team for the next two America's Cups

Nope, none of the above. I meant Ray Davies.

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11 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Nope, none of the above. I meant Ray Davies.

:( Sorry. The opening was too good to pass up. 

 

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5 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Sorry. The opening was too good to pass up.

So what Kiwi Helmsman did you want for AM - Burling?

I think you'll find he's signed up for NZ for the next cup at least, but yeah I could understand the desire.

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18 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

So what Kiwi Helmsman did you want for AM - Burling?

I think you'll find he's signed up for NZ for the next cup at least, but yeah I could understand the desire.

Actually, as I posted, I would be disappointed if Burling was offered $35 million to sail with Magic because I like the concept of the helm being a national for both teams. But yes it was Burling I was referring to when I said the credibility of the US afterguard could be turned around by spending mega dollars on a single New Zealander. I just dont want it to happen is all.

At the moment the two most credible afterguards are Ineos and ETNZ. The Italians seem motivated to head in the right direction. But someone needs to tell American Magic that the Americas Cup is not being hosted in TP52s.

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There aren't that many foiling helmsman around, but the AC75 will be new to everyone and that kinda levels things a bit. I don't think Outerridge has been signed by anyone and that's surprising.

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8 hours ago, IPLore said:

Actually, as I posted, I would be disappointed if Burling was offered $35 million to sail with Magic because I like the concept of the helm being a national for both teams. But yes it was Burling I was referring to when I said the credibility of the US afterguard could be turned around by spending mega dollars on a single New Zealander. I just dont want it to happen is all.

At the moment the two most credible afterguards are Ineos and ETNZ. The Italians seem motivated to head in the right direction. But someone needs to tell American Magic that the Americas Cup is not being hosted in TP52s.

The TP52's are useful for forming, and developing teamwork. Both Quantum and Luna Rossa are excelling in the 52 Super Series, and are certainly well on the way to developing effective sailing teams. Yes, the AC is a design contest, but an effective, efficient, tight team will always beat a team which has none of those qualities. The AC75's require a full sailing team, as opposed to a 5 person, or 6 person sailing team as we saw in the AC50's, therefor defining those crew positions and developing those crew relationships will become very important the closer we get to the Americas Cup. It will remain to be seen how important those TP52 campaigns will ultimately be to the Americas Cup campaigns, but between the Bella Mente Sailing Team (who have just launched a brand new Maxi 72) and the Quantum Racing Team who are currently leading the 52 Super Series, they will certainly be well advanced into developing the required tools for their AC campaign. Personally, I think American Magic will be surprisingly competitive against INEOS, but I would say Luna Rossa still hold the top spot in terms of the Challengers.

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On 9/21/2018 at 5:39 PM, mfluder said:

The TP52's are useful for forming, and developing teamwork. Both Quantum and Luna Rossa are excelling in the 52 Super Series, and are certainly well on the way to developing effective sailing teams. Yes, the AC is a design contest, but an effective, efficient, tight team will always beat a team which has none of those qualities. The AC75's require a full sailing team, as opposed to a 5 person, or 6 person sailing team as we saw in the AC50's, therefor defining those crew positions and developing those crew relationships will become very important the closer we get to the Americas Cup. It will remain to be seen how important those TP52 campaigns will ultimately be to the Americas Cup campaigns, but between the Bella Mente Sailing Team (who have just launched a brand new Maxi 72) and the Quantum Racing Team who are currently leading the 52 Super Series, they will certainly be well advanced into developing the required tools for their AC campaign. Personally, I think American Magic will be surprisingly competitive against INEOS, but I would say Luna Rossa still hold the top spot in terms of the Challengers.

 

Unfortunately America Magic is drinking the same kool aid and seems to have convinced themselves that their TP52 campaign and Bella Monte's maxi campaign is the right way to prepare for an America's cup in foiling boats.

The reality is that neither the TP52 or the Maxi were started as part of a deliberate AC campaign. They were already in the works.

America's Magic was not a syndicate which started with a clean sheet of paper and said "What is the best way to win the America's Cup? Who do we hire and how do we get there?"   It feels more like a TP52 team that said, "Hey lets take a swing at the America's Cup".  More time in the TP52 is not going to hone new skills. Many of them have been sailing together in the TP52 for years.

Winning the TP52 series really matters to Devos. The 2019 Maxi 72 World Championship really matters to Hap Fauth .

Nothing matters to Ineos and ETNZ except winning the America's Cup. Everything they do is focused on that goal. 

Ineos has bottomless financial resources. If they thought a TP52 campaign was the right way to prepare for the Americas Cup they would have built a TP52. Neither Ineos (Ben Ainslie) nor ETNZ (Grant Dalton) has a TP52. They are 24/7 concentrated on preparing a team to match race in foiling boats. I thought it was interesting that Ben described how important it was to be rotating the team during the recent G32 event. It was more important to Team Ineos to build the AC team working skills than win the G32 event. They know what they want to win and its not the MedCup.

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On 9/21/2018 at 9:33 AM, Horn Rock said:

There aren't that many foiling helmsman around, but the AC75 will be new to everyone and that kinda levels things a bit. I don't think Outerridge has been signed by anyone and that's surprising.

Agreed it has leveled the playing field considerably. 

Agreed the absence of Nathan Outerridge (and Ian Percy) is intriguing.  Could they be talking to another challenger in the wings?

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

Unfortunately America Magic is drinking the same kool aid and seems to have convinced themselves that their TP52 campaign and Bella Monte's maxi campaign is the right way to prepare for an America's cup in foiling boats.

The reality is that neither the TP52 or the Maxi were started as part of a deliberate AC campaign. They were already in the works.

America's Magic was not a syndicate which started with a clean sheet of paper and said "What is the best way to win the America's Cup? Who do we hire and how do we get there?"   It feels more like a TP52 team that said, "Hey lets take a swing at the America's Cup".  More time in the TP52 is not going to hone new skills. Many of them have been sailing together in the TP52 for years.

Winning the TP52 series really matters to Devos. The 2019 Maxi 72 World Championship really matters to Hap Fauth .

Nothing matters to Ineos and ETNZ except winning the America's Cup. Everything they do is focused on that goal. 

Ineos has bottomless financial resources. If they thought a TP52 campaign was the right way to prepare for the Americas Cup they would have built a TP52. Neither Ineos (Ben Ainslie) nor ETNZ (Grant Dalton) has a TP52. They are 24/7 concentrated on preparing a team to match race in foiling boats. I thought it was interesting that Ben described how important it was to be rotating the team during the recent G32 event. It was more important to Team Ineos to build the AC team working skills than win the G32 event. They know what they want to win and its not the MedCup.

Fortunately for American Magic and Luna Rossa, they have the means to be competing as a team on different events around the World. You are correct that Quantum and Bella Mente are established teams that have decided to take a swing at the Cup, but I think its fair to say that if ETNZ had the means to compete as a team in different regattas around the world, they  most certainly would. They have done it in the past, competed in the VOR, the ESS and the Audi Medcup, as well as the AC, but what we're probably seeing now is a team who has to concentrate its budget on the most important areas of their campaign, that being the AC.

Ray Davies, Pete Burling and many other Kiwi's have, and are competing in regattas around the world, whether it be the 52 Super Series (Ray Davies is Tactician on Sled, and Pete Burling is tactician on Gladiator) the Volvo (Pete and Blair) or the GC32 Series (Glenn Ashby with Team Tilt).

Probably helps that those guys can still compete without ETNZ having to pay them. 

INEOS (Land Rover BAR) started off combining with Team Gladiator before Ratcliffe bought the campaign. Once INEOS took over Ben obviously decided the GC32's were the best way forward for his team. It remains to be seen, but Luna Rossa and American Magic will definitely have full, strong sailing crews after their 52 Super Series campaigns, where Ben will have  a strong core component in himself and Leigh McMillan. Remember the AC75's incorporate a large "sailing" component as well which is where the teams who have competed at a high level as a full sailing crew, may see an advantage.

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Ben had to get involved with TL since he was helping fund their AC campaign which at the time could only afford a one boat operation. Additionally Ben wasn't helming and his team was primarily coaching with the odd bod on board.. Not sure a TP52 campaign has relevance to an AC75 especially regards crew intercommunication and hierarchies. indeed it could do more damage than good.

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1 hour ago, chesirecat said:

Ben had to get involved with TL since he was helping fund their AC campaign which at the time could only afford a one boat operation. Additionally Ben wasn't helming and his team was primarily coaching with the odd bod on board.. Not sure a TP52 campaign has relevance to an AC75 especially regards crew intercommunication and hierarchies. indeed it could do more damage than good.

Ben was tactician and the core of Land Rover BAR was involved with the TP52 campaign, so there was a little more to this campaign for AInslie than the "Odd bod".

http://www.sailweb.co.uk/offshore/29673/land-rover-bar-start-their-tp52-campaign75ec71_4bcdfcf898f84431ab899f4671e34842~

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6 hours ago, mfluder said:

 

  Luna Rossa and American Magic will definitely have full, strong sailing crews after their 52 Super Series campaigns. Remember the AC75's incorporate a large "sailing" component as well which is where the teams who have competed at a high level as a full sailing crew, may see an advantage.

I see what you are doing.

If the kiwis can encourage two teams to waste their time on TP 52s, then they will only be left with one serious challenger.

I don't think Ineos will fall for it.

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I imagine that both America Magic and Luna Rossa would rather the AC was held in TP 52s. 

 

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