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13 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

Don't be so sure.

DRC

Hmmm,

At the far end of trickle down could be a single hander.  A small slender hull boat with two canted Y or T main foils up front might be fun.  Put them on a beam for simplicity, but make them easily retractable.  Put some small floats next to them just so it wont fall over at rest. 

You know, someone with some UFO parts laying around could play with that idea.  But then again it would take having two main foils.  Hmmm.

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Please stop calling it a skeg. It is a keel:

A skeg, (skegg or skag) is a sternward extension of the keel of boats and ships which have a rudder mounted on the centre line. The term also applies to the lowest point on an outboard motor or the outdrive of an inboard/outboard.
 
keel1
/kēl/
noun
noun: keel; plural noun: keels
  1. the longitudinal structure along the centerline at the bottom of a vessel's hull, on which the rest of the hull is built, in some vessels extended downward as a blade or ridge to increase stability.
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5 minutes ago, A3A said:

Please stop calling it a skeg. It is a keel:

A skeg, (skegg or skag) is a sternward extension of the keel of boats and ships which have a rudder mounted on the centre line. The term also applies to the lowest point on an outboard motor or the outdrive of an inboard/outboard.
 
keel1
/kēl/
noun
noun: keel; plural noun: keels
  1. the longitudinal structure along the centerline at the bottom of a vessel's hull, on which the rest of the hull is built, in some vessels extended downward as a blade or ridge to increase stability.

The return of the keel yacht :wub:.

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7 hours ago, Hemi said:

 

Wow almost crashed it on the test drive. Apparently still really difficult to mimic the new boats behavior in the simulator?

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Better tie Hutch to the pie warmer bracket to keep that rudder down, oh wait...

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Nice big file, plenty of detail on the foil arm and foil wings

EkauvRWVMAIeFfR?format=jpg&name=4096x409

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Better tie Hutch to the pie warmer bracket to keep that rudder down, oh wait...

More driver error than the rudder letting go.  Mind you they were ballsy (or stupid) to go out in that wind strength first up.

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AM B2 rudder looks smaller width wise than Ineos' but I am not very good at geometry. May be an illusion? I did look in the class rule, there are requirements for depth below, symmetry and articulation in sec 16 but I did not see width? 

photocollage_20201016161712361.jpg

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6 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

AM B2 rudder looks smaller width wise than Ineos' but I am not very good at geometry. May be an illusion? I did look in the class rule, there are requirements for depth below, symmetry and articulation in sec 16 but I did not see width? 

photocollage_20201016161712361.jpg

I’m curious about it’s little flaccid nose... 

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They have that red line rather far down, that's for sure. 

20201016_164046.jpg

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14 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

She looked in good shape when they hauled her out - no obvious damage, so I'd guess she'll be straight back out after some human/control system kinks are worked out.


rudder.thumb.JPG.e196fe2c43b26abfcf02728f2ef3bdcf.JPG

That rudder looks to be hanging a little loose?

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18 hours ago, I14RACER said:

Looks like a simple yet elegant solution. All the reliability and quick adjustments of a traditional boom (like they had before), but with a deck-following profile.

But it’s not articulated like Te Aihe, is it? (re INEOS thread)

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19 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

That rudder looks to be hanging a little loose?

Na, it was like that when they launched

P1130599-01.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

More driver error than the rudder letting go.  Mind you they were ballsy (or stupid) to go out in that wind strength first up.

It was a stable 20knots out there

Screenshot_20201016-182612.png

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They are building yachts that potentially will breaks 55 knots, can go to windward like a bitch and potentially carry multiple people around in relative comfort.

I find it pretty inconcievable that people are looking at this and not seeing potential ways of using aspects of it in smaller cheaper options.  I mean the teams literally just about built the trickle down designs for us with their test mules!

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13 minutes ago, Boybland said:

They are building yachts that potentially will breaks 55 knots, can go to windward like a bitch and potentially carry multiple people around in relative comfort.

I find it pretty inconcievable that people are looking at this and not seeing potential ways of using aspects of it in smaller cheaper options.  I mean the teams literally just about built the trickle down designs for us with their test mules!

That’s hilariously optimistic!  I’ve come around and like the boats, but they won’t trickle down to “us” anytime soon. 

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Just now, Monkey said:

That’s hilariously optimistic!  I’ve come around and like the boats, but they won’t trickle down to “us” anytime soon. 

Oh I don't expect to have my own one ever... But there is an aweful lot of trickle room available above my pay grade!

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50 minutes ago, Boybland said:

They are building yachts that potentially will breaks 55 knots, can go to windward like a bitch and potentially carry multiple people around in relative comfort.

I find it pretty inconcievable that people are looking at this and not seeing potential ways of using aspects of it in smaller cheaper options.  I mean the teams literally just about built the trickle down designs for us with their test mules!

uh huh, like I can visualise admiral dad taking Mum and the kids for a sunday spin on the family frightener

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41 minutes ago, 167149 said:

uh huh, like I can visualise admiral dad taking Mum and the kids for a sunday spin on the family frightener

Oh we all want to be that dad!

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I would think more likely will be trickle down to a boat sailed by someone who might currently sail something like a ClubSwan 36, or some performance 40 or something like that.

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Regardless of how she sails, the paint job is well polished.  It’s been scientifically proven that boats with shiny paint jobs sail faster.  It’s a known fact.  All the reflected light parts the water.

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

That’s hilariously optimistic!  I’ve come around and like the boats, but they won’t trickle down to “us” anytime soon. 

Both the LR test boat and Te Kahu looked like they could be classes in their own right. Would be substantially cheaper than the big boats.

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9 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Both the LR test boat and Te Kahu looked like they could be classes in their own right. Would be substantially cheaper than the big boats.

What’s the cost on all the hydraulics to raise and lower the arms, systems to control them, the loads they need to handle, and the weight that would add to the boat? 

I think something more realistic would be closer to how Imoca’s foil in complexity, weight, and cost. (Kinda like the youth cup boat)

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6 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

What’s the cost on all the hydraulics to raise and lower the arms, systems to control them, the loads they need to handle,

I've got a couple of tractors, and my harvester has an external hydraulic pump that mounts on the PTO. That hydro pump is less than half the size of a soccer ball, and its flow rate can drive three hydraulic motors simultaneously, as well as a big lifting ram. The PTO on that little tractor would be less than 20hp as well. It's not overly expensive either. That pump would lift the arms on Mini Moon - easily I reckon.

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I think this is the YouTube upload of the above instagram footage. Credit to Justin Mitchell he's gotten some good footage on his channel.

 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Both the LR test boat and Te Kahu looked like they could be classes in their own right. Would be substantially cheaper than the big boats.

Sure, and require a staff to maintain all the systems year ‘round. These are heavily computerized, precision hydraulic toys. The average tractor mechanic won’t be doing the maintenance. I suppose you’re right though, assuming the owner has a few million a year to run a forty foot toy. 

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46 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I've got a couple of tractors, and my harvester has an external hydraulic pump that mounts on the PTO. That hydro pump is less than half the size of a soccer ball, and its flow rate can drive three hydraulic motors simultaneously, as well as a big lifting ram. The PTO on that little tractor would be less than 20hp as well. It's not overly expensive either. That pump would lift the arms on Mini Moon - easily I reckon.

And if you’ve got that much expertise, this is the thing you’d build? 
seems like easier options or more exciting options exist depending on which way you want to go. 
Also didn’t mini moon break? And ineos’ little thing was tippy as hell, not sure it’s the best sail. 

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8 minutes ago, Monkey said:

These are heavily computerized, precision hydraulic toys.

I'm not an expert in hydraulic circuits by any stretch, but the circuit to drive a couple of lifting rams for Mini Moon wouldn't need to be that complex. A four way tractor bucket would be more complex. You'd need a power source of around 10-12hp to drive the pump - which could be electric. I reckon it's doable without running into hundreds of thousands - much less.

14 minutes ago, Monkey said:

assuming the owner has a few million a year to run a forty foot toy. 

Te Kahu would be a step up in complexity and cost, but a 40ft conventional racing yacht aren't exactly cheap. The sort of dudes that run the TP50's could afford this.

17 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

And if you’ve got that much expertise, this is the thing you’d build? 

Wouldn't mind giving it a crack......lol....Lob down to my local hydro supplier, and Bob's your uncle - foiling mono hull....hahahaha......

20 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

Also didn’t mini moon break?

Not sure, we never saw much of it though.....Was a cute little boat - and fast.......Mini Frack was a joke though......

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Looks to me like they really are trying to get the bow down as much as possible. In lighter airs and smoother seas just dipping the razor thin "keel" (not skeg) in the water could translate lateral movement (many meters by the look of it in previous videos from all teams) to forward speed. LR B1 is similar but has too much wetted surface area to get away with it from drag penalties. Or possibly I am smoking too much crack lately. 

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I'm not an expert in hydraulic circuits by any stretch, but the circuit to drive a couple of lifting rams for Mini Moon wouldn't need to be that complex. A four way tractor bucket would be more complex. You'd need a power source of around 10-12hp to drive the pump - which could be electric. I reckon it's doable without running into hundreds of thousands - much less.

Te Kahu would be a step up in complexity and cost, but a 40ft conventional racing yacht aren't exactly cheap. The sort of dudes that run the TP50's could afford this.

Wouldn't mind giving it a crack......lol....Lob down to my local hydro supplier, and Bob's your uncle - foiling mono hull....hahahaha......

Not sure, we never saw much of it though.....Was a cute little boat - and fast.......Mini Frack was a joke though......

Well by all means please do so, you might be the only one. 
 

Many would watch with interest like with the 75s but not sure how many people are racing to put it on their boats. 

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From the limited YouTube items available, everything about the test drive for AM B2 looked pretty much out of sorts.  Seemed like they were going to have to start man overboard drills with the guy climbing out on the arm.  Normal shakedown I suppose but better to just pack it in and try again tomorrow.

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First flight fright!

She was throwing up huge amounts of water off the foil arm from time to time, noticeable on the drone footage especially. Might even out once they get the right 'depth settings'.

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6 hours ago, zillafreak said:

yysw298116.jpg.d422f6917de817f70aac2837a1768faa.jpg

 

Well shit if that doesn't back up what I just said!

It's got fucking lifelines.

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29 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Dive Dive Dive..! 

 

dive dive.jpg

This is the sort of photo Smack would like.......

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16 minutes ago, astro said:

It's got fucking lifelines.

OHS, have to keep the shore crew safe when it is on the cradle

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57 minutes ago, astro said:

It's got fucking lifelines.

Its part of the rule, removable lifelines for dock/shore side.

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

Dive Dive Dive..! 

 

dive dive.jpg

This picture reminds me of my current fixation, i.e. whether the rudder stabilator provides downforce or also, occasionally (sky jumps), upforce.

No doubt in this case, but generally I believe with the rudder flexing under side load, an up/compression force would lead immediately to buckling of the very slender rudder structure

 

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Downforce till it stalls, ventilated/breaches the surface, looses grip and sinks setting up an undesireable angle of attack when flow is reestablished = launch/splat. That’s my understanding anyway 
 

 

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This forum is really falling down on the job - Patriot literally almost cartwheeled into oblivion on its maiden voyage and not one fucks given on SA.  Y’all have become jaded to catastrophic AC boat crashes. :D

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8 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

This forum is really falling down on the job - Patriot literally almost cartwheeled into oblivion on its maiden voyage and not one fucks given on SA.  Y’all have become jaded to catastrophic AC boat crashes. :D

Has been already discussed. And who's "y'all"? Does it include you?

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9 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

This forum is really falling down on the job - Patriot literally almost cartwheeled into oblivion on its maiden voyage and not one fucks given on SA.  Y’all have become jaded to catastrophic AC boat crashes. :D

Just hard to find it amongst all the BS about the 2000s and past catamaran events.....

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13 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

From AM Facebook page

am.jpg

Amazing pic.....  I am curious which foil let go first and it was a manual correction or made by the flight system (00:05 into the video above post 9730)....

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It is an all new boat with major differences in crew weight distribution, helmsman position and most likely a different balance and feel.  At least they went out and sailed it instead of dragging it around behind a chase boat for a week....

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9 hours ago, nav said:

First flight fright!

She was throwing up huge amounts of water off the foil arm from time to time, noticeable on the drone footage especially. Might even out once they get the right 'depth settings'.

Who’s drone was that? Brilliant! 

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Little more footage from JM yesterday - might have still been working out some new hardware issues (00:30) when they decided to step on the gas.....Crew out on each of the foils as they got set up. 4:15 is good to see the acceleration vs. regular powerboats. 

 

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‘Lively’ :) 

 

The AC75's first gybe, attempted with a windspeed of around 20 knots, turned out to be a memorable one. "We had a great nosedive, and that was exciting," said Hutchinson. "It was nothing that we haven't seen or done on our other boats, and our familiarity with PATRIOT will increase rapidly over the coming days."

Helmsman Dean Barker noted that he and team were encouraged by the yacht's performance overall. Barker described the new AC75, built by a team of 50 in Bristol, Rhode Island, as "lively." 
 

https://americanmagic.americascup.com/en/news/60_PATRIOT-COMPLETES-FIRST-SAIL-IN-AUCKLAND.html

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Ineos rib went with it on the acceleration phase 

I would hope so , hence my comment about " regular" powerboats.

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14 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

‘Lively’ :) 

 

The AC75's first gybe, attempted with a windspeed of around 20 knots, turned out to be a memorable one. "We had a great nosedive, and that was exciting," said Hutchinson. "It was nothing that we haven't seen or done on our other boats, and our familiarity with PATRIOT will increase rapidly over the coming days."

Helmsman Dean Barker noted that he and team were encouraged by the yacht's performance overall. Barker described the new AC75, built by a team of 50 in Bristol, Rhode Island, as "lively." 
 

https://americanmagic.americascup.com/en/news/60_PATRIOT-COMPLETES-FIRST-SAIL-IN-AUCKLAND.html

It was not their intention (beyond a system check) to even sail this day.....

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2 hours ago, XPRO said:

.Crew out on each of the foils as they got set up. 4:15 is good to see the acceleration vs. regular powerboats. 

 

I wish we had better sound.  Probably would have been something like

"Steady Dean, keep it fricken steady you guys.  No games now, please no games ...."

Out on a limb.jpg

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13 minutes ago, XPRO said:

It was not their intention (beyond a system check) to even sail this day.....

My guess is they ran into a control system bug, of some kind. Main foil actuators? The crewman going out onto both wings suggests a funny reading; maybe they said ‘screw it, let’s give it a ride anyway’ :) 

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So Barker still helmsman? What happened to Paul Goodson? One would think he has all the credentials and world championship experience to take the helm.

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20 hours ago, Costro said:

Not very close or very smooth, but better than nothing. 

 

 

Great video - they look fast!  Tempting to focus on the clumsy pirouette, but they'll have the ironed out pretty quick.  Can't wait to see all boats out there, we haven't seen a contest of boat designs this good in a long time.    

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Certainly agree with that. Whoever does win this time, they will deserve it. As to the antics on Friday, the first thing that comes to mind is the motto of the British SAS "Who Dares Wins". 

I have total respect for all the teams competing this time. Some thing that has been missing for the last few events.

I'm looking forward to this.

 

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50 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So Barker still helmsman? What happened to Paul Goodson? One would think he has all the credentials and world championship experience to take the helm.

Erm yes, Goodison is on main trim, always has been 

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Congratulations to Team NYYC! Patriot looks seriously fast and businesslike - beautifully presented boat. Hope they have the helmsman to get the best out of her...AMB2-1.thumb.jpg.ed23436f9a8cd5f8ac10430da73aa2ab.jpg

Looks like a brooding alligator waiting to take a big bite out of the opposition in this photoAMB2-2.jpg.9f02e073afc871217dba96c6c355bb23.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

Congratulations to Team NYYC! Patriot looks seriously fast and businesslike - beautifully presented boat. Hope they have the helmsman to get the best out of her...AMB2-1.thumb.jpg.ed23436f9a8cd5f8ac10430da73aa2ab.jpg

Looks like a brooding alligator waiting to take a big bite out of the opposition in this photoAMB2-2.jpg.9f02e073afc871217dba96c6c355bb23.jpg

He got you to 8-0 in San Fran, only the team/Grant/Kevin etc  inability to provide him with a fast enough boat cost you the cup.

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4 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

He got you to 8-0 in San Fran, only the team/Grant/Kevin etc  inability to provide him with a fast enough boat cost you the cup.

7 years is a lifetime - look at yourself, you probably dropped your nads in that time!

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I agree with the characterization, but I can't go with routinely calling her such. 

Pretty sure gators are pretty scare up where the boat was built.

Here in the Carolinas, we have a few of them.  It is kind of chilling to see one watching you while you are sailing solo in gusty conditions on a tiny & tippy boat in the middle of nowhere.  I don't recall of ever hearing about any problems around here.  Still, they really have that "brooding look" thing down pat.

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6 minutes ago, Indio said:

7 years is a lifetime - look at yourself, you probably dropped your nads in that time!

Nice deflection.. your lot gave him a slow boat, blew the element of suprise with foiling  and then you cast him as the culprit for where it went wrong. 
 

let’s just look forward to the racing eh? 

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19 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

He got you to 8-0 in San Fran, only the team/Grant/Kevin etc  inability to provide him with a fast enough boat cost you the cup.

And you're still waiting.

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16 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

And you're still waiting.

Really? Someone better tell Ben then as I don’t think he has mentioned it before.. 

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48 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Erm yes, Goodison is on main trim, always has been 

Yep - With Andrew Campbell a key player as the flight controller. It’s a very good sailing team.

TH said during TE’s show yesterday they had an issue with the FCS hydraulics, by the conversation context suggesting that’s what accounted for the liftout and dive. He also said it was DB who confidentially called the shot to go for it regardless. 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

So Barker still helmsman?

Good Gawd, out of boredom I read something that you posted, and that was it? Seriously just go F YourSelf, stop with all the slimy personal attacks on every f’ing target you can think of, it got old starting years ago. 
 

DB is key to an excellent team here, it’s great to see. 

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2 hours ago, P Flados said:

I wish we had better sound.  Probably would have been something like

"Steady Dean, keep it fricken steady you guys.  No games now, please no games ...."

Out on a limb.jpg

Extra RM

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Hard to connect the fact that this guy checked out the end of the arms on both sides, with TH’s comments about the supplied system’s hydraulics issue, but I guess it’s possibly related? 
 

The acceleration in that one video was pretty stunning! 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Hard to connect the fact that this guy checked out the end of the arms on both sides, with TH’s comments about the supplied system’s hydraulics issue, but I guess it’s possibly related? 

Heard on the street it is an oil issue (for all teams), but not sure if that was it in this case.

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26 minutes ago, XPRO said:

Heard on the street it is an oil issue (for all teams), but not sure if that was it in this case.

Why would FCS oil go to the bottom of the arms, I wonder? 

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23 minutes ago, XPRO said:

Heard on the street it is an oil issue (for all teams), but not sure if that was it in this case.

Don't see why they'd need to crawl out on the arm to check things if it was an "oil issue": all hydraulics for canting are in the belly of the beast.651303979_Cantingsys.JPG.3199f3e052cfe009b5bd94967264c08b.JPG

 

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Maybe if they get unreliable FCS readouts due to hydraulics issues then there’s a cascading trail of effects, including at the actuators because of the systems being ‘integrated’ logically. 

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It is interesting that TH and DB seem to be pretty much at the top of the game. I always admired both of them for their calm determination, but I wasn't sure they would be able to play on this bleeding edge of high tech/high performance sailing. I guess it will partly depend on whether the water ski keel of Britannia works or not.

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3 hours ago, P Flados said:

 

Out on a limb.jpg

AM ways attempt and Hugo Boss keel walk?

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

DB is key to an excellent team here, it’s great to see. 

I don't think so.  I don't think he has the courage, the unflappable nerve under pressure or the killer instinct that the others have.  Spithall, Ainslie and Burling have all three in spades.  Barker would have got a rattle with that nose dive.  Compare that to Burling - didn't look too bad sitting high in the air after crashing in Bermuda, tacked Te Aihe way ahead of schedule because he knew he could do it, when they nosed dived recently he would have been taking it right to the edge.  

We all saw Ainslie's aggression in Bermuda.  We all know Spithall!

What do we hear from Barker this week - "all the teams need to respect each other because these boats can be dangerous".....  If racing is close he'll bottle it and choke.  Only chance is if Amway is one lap faster than the rest.

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2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't think so.  I don't think he has the courage, the unflappable nerve under pressure or the killer instinct that the others have.  Spithall, Ainslie and Burling have all three in spades.  Barker would have got a rattle with that nose dive.  Compare that to Burling - didn't look too bad sitting high in the air after crashing in Bermuda, tacked Te Aihe way ahead of schedule because he knew he could do it, when they nosed dived recently he would have been taking it right to the edge.  

We all saw Ainslie's aggression in Bermuda.  We all know Spithall!

What do we hear from Barker this week - "all the teams need to respect each other because these boats can be dangerous".....  If racing is close he'll bottle it and choke.  Only chance is if Amway is one lap faster than the rest.

Absolute bullshit.  They’ll all be as aggressive as the rules allow.  They also have to respect the boats too, how would you like a closing speed of 100kph?

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Good Gawd, out of boredom I read something that you posted, and that was it? Seriously just go F YourSelf, stop with all the slimy personal attacks on every f’ing target you can think of, it got old starting years ago. 
 

DB is key to an excellent team here, it’s great to see. 

DB is a great guy and had been very loyal to New Zealand. The removal of him from the Helm was not any easy decision. The fact the he was offered another role in ETNZ is testament to this.  However it was felt there was better options available. Many felt he didn’t have a killer instinct and didn’t handle pressure. Dean is also getter older, At 47 he’s past his prime. The fact he sails for foreign syndicates has also not brought a backlash. It’s not his fault if he’s looking for employment in other countries. 
look at the way DB is treated versus BB in New Zealand. There’s no public hatred towards him and I go to say many of the public are well disposed to DB. 
However as nice bloke he may be, there are better options out there for AM.  Also when DB does finally retire I wish him well. 

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1 minute ago, Teaky said:

how would you like a closing speed of 100kph?

That's the point I don't think Barker has the nerve to sail right to the limits let alone test and remember where those limits are.  The other three do and it shows in their sailing record CV's.  I know this forum has done this to death but what has Barker actually won of any note in a long career?

Ainslie - greatest Olympic Sailor of all time.
Spithall - youngest skipper to win the America's Cup.  Sailed in at least three Sydney - Hobarts finishing in the first three each time.  First to pitch-pole an AC45 and did it twice!
Burling - Olympic Champion, World Champion, Round the World race sailor, America's Cup winner.  First to pitchpole an AC62 in the America's Cup!

Yeah na.  Barker needs a fast boat.

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6 minutes ago, mako23 said:

There’s no public hatred towards him and I go to say many of the public are well disposed to DB. 

Yep Dean Barker is a "nice bloke."  Nice blokes don't win the America's Cup unless they have a very very fast boat!  They reckon Ainslie is a nice bloke on shore but an absolute arsehole on the water.

Wasn't it Ainslie that carved a new drain hole in Barkers team Japan in Bermuda?

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2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Yep Dean Barker is a "nice bloke."  Nice blokes don't win the America's Cup unless they have a very very fast boat!  They reckon Ainslie is a nice bloke on shore but an absolute arsehole on the water.

I’m trying to be tactful, something rare for me. I do honestly AM must have better options than DB. However in saying so doesn’t mean I need to do a character assassination. 

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