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Lucky Dog

How to remove First 40.7 Rudder

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Hello,

 

going to fair my rudder this winter.  Never taken the rudder off this boat.  I am expecting the take off quadrant and I expect a bushing above the bottom bearing.   is there more to it than that?  are there lurking a set screw(s) that I need to remove ect....

  any advice from someone who has done is greatly  needed.

 

 

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Well I figured it out - take the quadrant off and on the top is a pin pull that and rudder should drop out.   Funny the rudder floats or is buoyant not used to seeing that as my old boats rudder was ---- not.

Once rudder is out will template to Original Farr Spec's.  The front is about 2 inches short per the original templates/drawings.  Do not have the "new" and improved ones so I am stuck with original.

will post pics as I go.

 

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Are you suggesting that it is possible to remove the rudder with the boat in the water?  I suppose so as you say the rudder floats... In every description I have read, the boat was on a craddle. Have you really done this?

 

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10 hours ago, kotick said:

Are you suggesting that it is possible to remove the rudder with the boat in the water?  I suppose so as you say the rudder floats... In every description I have read, the boat was on a craddle. Have you really done this?

 

Yah...

common on large sailboats .

 

 On land the boat may need to be lifted very high into the air to generate enough air clearance under the rudder to facilitate removal..then lifted again to reinstall the rudder. 

all boats are different ...some boats need a coffer dam built inside at the rudder bearing  to prevent flooding .  

If yourboat is small you can deflect the bow down with a barrel of water or whatever needed to  get the stern up and remove the rudder without flooding ...then fit a plywood cap to make water tight 

a diver can easily ballast the rudder To sink it  

normally I schedule rudder work for when I have access to a keel pit.

 

 

IMG_7528.JPG

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No idea as to the specifics of your boat but I was able to remove and install my rudder and prop shaft in water.  The holes weren't big enough to cause a huge amount of water.  I just had someone standby with a Truplug and shove it in as the shaft/stock dropped out of the boat.  Boat sat with the plugs keeping her afloat for a few weeks.  I put some blocking behind them, but they worked as advertised and didn't let in a drip.  You are only looking at a foot or two of head pressure and yeah it seems like a lot of water but it isn't anything you can't stop with a hand.  

 

truplug-original-plug-1.jpg

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I asked because my boat is a 40.7, and it I will need to check the rudder bushings/bearings some time soon. I didn't think about this possibility. But I won't be able to sink the bow significantly, even with all my friends standing there... Thank you for the answers. 

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BTW, Slug, isn't this rudder hanging from a crane in Palma de Mallorca? Castle seems familiar.   Rudder's much bigger than mine. 

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43 minutes ago, kotick said:

I asked because my boat is a 40.7, and it I will need to check the rudder bushings/bearings some time soon. I didn't think about this possibility. But I won't be able to sink the bow significantly, even with all my friends standing there... Thank you for the answers. 

 

15 minutes ago, kotick said:

BTW, Slug, isn't this rudder hanging from a crane in Palma de Mallorca? Castle seems familiar.   Rudder's much bigger than mine. 

Always best to do that kind of work when out of the water.  Close visual inspection and high quality work takes time, good light  and proper work space. 

The other advantage is professional advice and supplies that are normally available at a shipyard.  

I dont know your project but sometimes its very difficult to pull the old rudder bearing out 

normally a wheel puller type rig is used....nothing fancy , just specific to your project .

 

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Of course, I will do this when standing on hard ground. I was just curious about the possibility, if the need arose. Thank you anyway!

 

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Might save some money if you can drop the rudder before shoring...while in the slings. Or at least measure how much room you need to clear the stock.

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Yes but, as Slug said, it is possible that the rudder stock might need some persuading force before it is freed from the bushings. This should be easier on a non-moving surface. The distance needed is not much, about three feet at most, at least viewed from the inside after some contorsions. 

 

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I think I'll leave this to the pros, I'm afraid to break something... or to spill some blood (mine!). Thank you for the suggestions.

When he opened this thread, LuckyDog said he was going to post pics of the removal. I'm taking a front seat and wait to see them. 

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On 10/8/2017 at 6:07 AM, Lucky Dog said:

Well I figured it out - take the quadrant off and on the top is a pin pull that and rudder should drop out.   Funny the rudder floats or is buoyant not used to seeing that as my old boats rudder was ---- not.

Once rudder is out will template to Original Farr Spec's.  The front is about 2 inches short per the original templates/drawings.  Do not have the "new" and improved ones so I am stuck with original.

will post pics as I go.

 

The factory 40.7 rudder is not as drawn by the Farr office. I suspect Bene had a "close enough" rudder mold on hand that they substituted. 

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I've heard that too. From a link on the Farr web site: http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Farr-Ben407_Promo2017-v1.pdf

$8100! I  think I'd have to test sail one to be convinced it's worth that much. Admittedly, the steering on mine is a shortcoming but how much can be changed with a new foil is something I'm skeptical about. 

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On 12/28/2017 at 3:00 AM, kotick said:

I think I'll leave this to the pros, I'm afraid to break something... or to spill some blood (mine!). Thank you for the suggestions.

When he opened this thread, LuckyDog said he was going to post pics of the removal. I'm taking a front seat and wait to see them. 

Well - it was really easy.   I took the quadrant apart (forgot the get the stainless pin).  Removed the Top pin, pushed straight down with a broom handle very hard (fast) and the rudder popped out.

You can see I got lucky with the quadrant pin - it stayed in the post for some reason.  I grabbed that before fell out.  If you try to float yours get this pin when you take apart the quadrant.

I used hoist to put in pick up.  I could have picked it up as its not very heavy.  

I have the Farr Drawings (paid for them).  The post is not Carbon the paddle inside the rudder is Carbon.  I think the post is e-glass.  The rudder skin is fiberglass - should be carbon.

I am using templates to shape - rudder will be re-skinned with Carbon per the drawing.  The stock rudder is approximately  ~ 20 mm too thick and max thickness way aft (~42%).  The trailing edge is very fat - removing a lot of material there.

 

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   It's best to tie some weights to the bottom of the rudder before removing this way - you want the blade to drop straight down & completely out of the hull quickly. If the buoyancy is high & the blade gets only partially down when pushed it will jam the stock sideways thru the lower bearing. Same when putting rudder back into boat - weight it till it sinks, then use a line led down thru bearings to lift rudder back up.

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On 12/26/2017 at 2:40 PM, kotick said:

I asked because my boat is a 40.7, and it I will need to check the rudder bushings/bearings some time soon. I didn't think about this possibility. But I won't be able to sink the bow significantly, even with all my friends standing there... Thank you for the answers. 

I did not take any water inside the boat when rudder was out.  

One way to check if rudder is free of bushing is to push down with your foot on rudder head.  If it moves down ~20 mm and comes back up then its not stuck.  Assuming yours floats or is not waterlogged.  

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Nice shots, thanks. I know now much more about my rudder care and feeding. As I see this is a "don't do this at home" job, I will wait for a haul-out and ask a pro to  take a look. 

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On 12/31/2017 at 9:38 AM, slug zitski said:

Carefully measure the bearing race surface on the rudder.

it common for rudder shafts, bushings to wear into an egg shape 

Yep - good advice.  The stainless bearing is perfect  except its loose on the shaft - both top and bottom. I am going to use West System G-Flex to re-bond the bearings.  The stainless and "e-Glass" did not stick together (thermo expansion?) very well.  The bog in between the shaft and bearing is very sloppy/not nicely done.  When I see crap I fix it - :)

The bushings in the boat look good may or may not replace them.  The get to them you need a spanner to turn this "nut" off this Al tube on the bottom.  The top bushing is bolted in.

 

The Al tube keeps the water out. So if you take if off to get to bearings need to have boat out of the water.

Note - I took mine off in the water to see if it was possible - it is.   Next step is to create a much smaller emergency rudder and a system to install.  I have seen/heard of this on Volvo boats.  This of course is needed for some of the races that I do and I actually want my emergency steering to work.

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IMG_2139.JPG

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A common solution for transoceanic emergency steering is a cassette rudder 

google it.   Not difficult to build.  Off the shelf components suitable for a 40 footer may be available 

 

IMG_7666.JPG

IMG_7667.JPG

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So, am I reading you correctly that the Farr design was both thinner and longer and your plan is to make yours correspondingly thinner but still not as long? How is that likely to affect performance? I'm guessing substituting CF skins for the original GRP will address any strength losses from thinning the trailing edge. 

My chief complaint with steering this boat is that you can't rely on pressure felt through the wheel to gauge steering input. You turn the wheel, wait a bit, and then counter steer to stop the bow on the  desired course. Response isn't always instantaneous and helm pressure doesn't always change or give any feedback until an over correction happens. I'd love to hear how your mod affects this. I love the boat but would like to improve the steering for sure. 

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K you have nailed the steering perfectly.   I have shoal draft keel so I am sure that I got the shorter rudder - its shorter by 6 inches or so.

The rudder as I measured it goes from 17% foil section at top down to 12% percent thickness.  This is typical of a "stock"rudder.  This is primarly due to the rudder shaft thickness driving the top to be too thick - If the shaft is built correctly (proper layup and materials) out of carbon it will be correct thickness per the design.

 The design from the orginal plan is a 13%ish at top to 12% at tip - this is my estimation looking at the plans.

The boat rudder max thickness location is way off - it needs to be forward.  The trailing edge is also very thick; good news is its all glass so grinding it down is not an issue.

So I will get mine as close to the orginal plans as possible both in thickness and depth.  I will stiffen rudder up (top to bottom) using Uni-Carbon on each side and then cover entire rudder with bi-axial carbon following Farr's recommendations for skin layup.

You can get one made "class legal"  that is a ~12% section with thickness in correct location from Larry Tuttle or Phil's Foils.  Both do excellent work.   They will build the rudder stock correctly so it will be right thickness and the rudder will match the plans perfectly.  However this is an 8K upgrade.  I just bought 2 3Di headsails so the boat kitty is very dry.

SO

I am going to try this rebuilt rudder for next year of so... Then if it's still problematic -  I will purchase the rights from Farr to build a one off "NEW Design class legal".  I will get a new rudder stock and foam blanks made and laminate it together.  I used to build boats /rudders and I like doing this stuff for myself.  Its fun and I really enjoy doing it plus I have all the resin infusion equipment in the basement.

I will post some pictures once I get old rudder shaped - that is going to take me a few weeks doing it at nights and on weekends.

FYI - Another First 40.7 owner re-faired his rudder and he was happy with improvement - at least that is what I read.  

 

 

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On 1/1/2018 at 1:14 PM, slug zitski said:

A common solution for transoceanic emergency steering is a cassette rudder 

google it.   Not difficult to build.  Off the shelf components suitable for a 40 footer may be available 

 

IMG_7666.JPG

IMG_7667.JPG

Nice Idea - However I have  a swim platform so the transom does not lend itself to do that with out some large modification for top pintle.  I guess you could build it 4" and get a 8 " span from top to bottom pintle as its really an emergency rudder.

Thanks for the idea - 

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