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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Ajax

Lief Erikson

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Since Leif landed in what is now Canada, he probably celebrated with turkey and stuffing ... happy Canadian Thanksgiving Leif!

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just hold on there, what about the indigenous peoples? what about the whales and baby seals and,,,, and the polar bears for that matter?

and wops,, what about them?

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Here in Maine where a number of towns wouldn't celebrate Columbus, I expect Leif wouldn't get a lot of love. As Bob says, "I pity there poor immigrant"- well maybe not.

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Thor Hyerdrahl (spelling) had a theory part of this mob wound up on easter island...

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It is my belief that Lief (NPI) planted Scandinavian socialism among Native Americans and in the soil of Canada. 

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2 minutes ago, Bull City said:

It is my belief that Lief (NPI) planted Scandinavian socialism among Native Americans and in the soil of Canada. 

And some good old-fashioned European diseases and STD's.

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The socialism only stuck in Canada but the European propensity for warring on each other really took root in the States.

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How much time must pass after migrating across the land bridge before you can call yourself “indiginous?”

As for the “European” propensity for warring, ahem.  The conquering, colonizing and enslaving was a worldwide pastime for millenia and certainly not limited to Europeans.  Hell, Spain had recently recovered some of its territory from the Ottomans and Moors shortly before Columbus set sail.

When he arrived in the Bahamas, Columbus found warring tribes grabbing land from other tribes and enslaving their neighbors.  The Dominican Republic and Jamaica were especially hostile to neighboring tribes.

Forget the Mongols, Chinese, Persians, Ottomans, Moors, Egyptians, etc.  White European males who migrated to the US are responsible for every injustice in history.

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Yeah. They shoulda stayed home! Funny that now that they conquered the place, we think everyone should get to come in!

If I was a Native American I’d wonder what the hell is up with the white man. First he takes our land from us...then his ancestors fight to give what was our land to everyone BUT us :blink:

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10 minutes ago, Crash said:

Yeah. They shoulda stayed home! Funny that now that they conquered the place, we think everyone should get to come in!

If I was a Native American I’d wonder what the hell is up with the white man. First he takes our land from us...then his ancestors fight to give what was our land to everyone BUT us :blink:

Well, Native Americans did not originate here—and they fought each other  for the land before and after we got here.  We’re just the newcomers who did what EVERYONE was doing in those days.  I’m tired of taking the blame for shit my family played no part of in the past 1000 years.

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The Vikings were a funny lot because they would initially rape and plunder but then not colonise but assimilate with the locals. This occured all throughout Europe and in places as faraway as the Middle East.

America for them was sort of the odd one out where they didn't settle, didn't push south and explore and after a short while just packed up and left. This appears to be a combination of the rarity of the Indians being a match for them in a military sence and with that and the long arduous journey to and from, there were comparitivley much easier pickings still left in Europe. 

If the Indians had not been so strong and stubborn then maybe their current position and world history would be slightly different. Imagine if the Indian population of Nth America had been reinforced with Viking numbers and blood for the next 500/600 years before anyone else showed up looking to settle. 

If that had happened the British, Spanish and French colonists of the 1600's might have found things pretty uncomfortable and kept going and settling in other places a 100 or more years earlier than they did. 

I had this lightbulb moment seeing the thread title so I wonder if anyone has properly researched this possibility??

 

 

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1 hour ago, Whisper said:

Well, Native Americans did not originate here—and they fought each other  for the land before and after we got here.  We’re just the newcomers who did what EVERYONE was doing in those days.  I’m tired of taking the blame for shit my family played no part of in the past 1000 years.

What? no Noblesse Oblige in your upbringing?

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2 hours ago, Whisper said:

Well, Native Americans did not originate here—and they fought each other  for the land before and after we got here.  We’re just the newcomers who did what EVERYONE was doing in those days.  I’m tired of taking the blame for shit my family played no part of in the past 1000 years.

We American's (writ large, as a whole) have no real sense or understanding of History.  Slavery was certainly not invented in America...hell, we didn't hold a candle to either the Romans or the Egyptians...and yes North Africans (The Barbary States) held white slaves throughout the reign of the Ottoman Empire.  Both the Japanese and Germans used what was, for all intents and purposes, slave labor during WWII.  Doesn't make slavery right.  But it was and continues to be part of the human experience since we first walked upright.

I was trying to make a joke about the apparent contradiction that the same people that say we've stolen what was rightfully the property of the Native Peoples are the same people (generally, I'm sure there are some exceptions) arguing for more open immigration, and citizenship for illegal aliens...guess it didn't come out quite the way I meant it.

 

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5 minutes ago, Crash said:

We American's (writ large, as a whole) have no real sense or understanding of History.  Slavery was certainly not invented in America...hell, we didn't hold a candle to either the Romans or the Egyptians...and yes North Africans (The Barbary States) held white slaves throughout the reign of the Ottoman Empire.  Both the Japanese and Germans used what was, for all intents and purposes, slave labor during WWII.  Doesn't make slavery right.  But it was and continues to be part of the human experience since we first walked upright.

I was trying to make a joke about the apparent contradiction that the same people that say we've stolen what was rightfully the property of the Native Peoples are the same people (generally, I'm sure there are some exceptions) arguing for more open immigration, and citizenship for illegal aliens...guess it didn't come out quite the way I meant it.

 

All of that is correct, and I understood you.

I’m sick of hearing from the clueless folk who don’t have any grasp of history.  You’re not one of those.

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Leif introduced Ingressive Pulmonic speech to the Newfies and it spread by other means.

You may be affected. An Atlantic Canadian speech pattern, explained - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News

 

Russian mobs drove out the Norse settlers. That and global cooling. Reverse Colonialism - How the Inuit Conquered the Vikings | Canadian Geographic

 

trek (15).jpg

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44 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

Russian mobs drove out the Norse settlers. That and global cooling. Reverse Colonialism - How the Inuit Conquered the Vikings | Canadian Geographic

Norse this article is based upon science author Jared Diamond's theory that society's collapse cannot be attributed solely to environmental factors, and in this case believes the Vikings were driven out of Greenland by the Inuit. However this guy also seems to want his cake and eat it too as he then goes on to say the driving force to which he attributes the demise of civilisations like that on Easter Island and the Mayans was entirely environmental. Interestingly most of his critics believe him wrong on these three counts where Vikings in Iceland was 100% environmental and Easter Is and the Mayan civilisations was a combination of factors. The Vikings short stay (a few years at best) in North America was clearly not environmental (excluding distance from their homeland) and so their demise a combination that included opposition from the locals.

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On 10/9/2017 at 6:33 PM, Whisper said:

Well, Native Americans did not originate here—and they fought each other  for the land before and after we got here.  We’re just the newcomers who did what EVERYONE was doing in those days.  I’m tired of taking the blame for shit my family played no part of in the past 1000 years.

You're obviously not of Appalachian or Balkan descent. There, grudges do go back (for a - it seems, and b - for real) for a millennium.

We made the mistake of employing both Croats and Serbs simultaneously at my wife's restaurant. Never again.

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Sloop not really a blood feud as while they might have had a common Slavic connection a trillion years ago, all conflicts pre and post the single entity of Yugoslavia have been founded on nationalism with religion and some good old ethnic cleansing thrown in for good measure. 20 odd years ago a hellish place, nowdays where the millennials from around the world go in summer to jump on a boat, party hard and get laid. Probably not much of an improvement.

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On 10.10.2017 at 12:41 AM, Ishmael said:

And some good old-fashioned European diseases and STD's.

At least we were not able to export hysterical political correctness - we can still laugh at rude sailor jokes in the open!

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A brief treatise on the America's.

If you have to blame someone, blame Genghis Kahn.  The Mongolian Hegenomy stabilize Central Asia and made the Silk Road a saf e passage between Mediterranean and the Far East.  This dynamic period, came to a nasty end when eastern pathogens found new hosts in the east. The plague killed enough people to break the  Silk Road, and enough Europeans and Africans to crater both societies.  The people who survived had enhanced resistance to these diseases, and their offspring could endure diseases that had been lethal only generations before.

When the sailing ship developed that was capable of reaching the America's it also introduced these pathogens to a new population which had no immunity. The mortality rate among Americans on the eastern seaboard in the period between first contact and colonization is somewhere north of 95%.  What the Pilgrams encountered wasn't a virgin wilderness, but the overgrown infrastructure of a recently extinct population.  

The next consequence of this was that there was an insufficient population of indigenous people to put to work exploiting the resources of the "New World."  So labor had to be acquired.  Slavery was a time tested solution and the Portuguese, who had the greatest expertise in trans Atlantic navegation made a market in supplying the America's with African slave labor.  

In the 15th & 16th centuries, slavery was one of the many things that life could deal out.  If you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, anyone could be captured and enslaved.  The peoples of the Mediterranean were enslaving each other all the time. Arabs were importing slaves from Africa and dealing them into the east.  The thing that was different about the Atlantic slave trade was that the displacement caused by the sailing ship was as extreme as if you or I was transported to Mars. The other thing was that slavery took on a racial aspect that did not exist in the Mediterranean. You couldn't tell that a Greek or a Turk was a freeman or a slave, but on the western shores of the Atlantic, anyone that was black was a slave. In these was American Slavery is distinct from other slave holding traditions.

It is also important to point out that the African societies didn't know or particularly care about what they were getting themselves into.  They didn't know what actually happened after the ships sailed away, and they didn't know just how much of their populations they would be exporting.  In some ways this was as if another plague tore through the population and carried away the young and the fit.

The further refinement of the sailing ship brought more and more people from Europe including the disposed and labor classes who were willing to risk all for a chance to work.  Ultimately this made more economic sense than slavery, and the Colonies closest to Europe could abandon owning labor because there was plenty available for rent on a daily basis. You didn't have to feed, clothe and house them either. As a final kicker, the commerce they created buying food etc added to the economies of the north and made them grow faster than the slave colonies of the south.

A long way around to saying that the consequence of Columbus' voyages to America was the North Atlantic Slave Trade and to a certain extent the Black Lives Matter movement.  

SHC

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3 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

A brief treatise on the America's.

If you have to blame someone, blame Genghis Kahn.  The Mongolian Hegenomy stabilize Central Asia and made the Silk Road a saf e passage between Mediterranean and the Far East.  This dynamic period, came to a nasty end when eastern pathogens found new hosts in the east. The plague killed enough people to break the  Silk Road, and enough Europeans and Africans to crater both societies.  The people who survived had enhanced resistance to these diseases, and their offspring could endure diseases that had been lethal only generations before.

When the sailing ship developed that was capable of reaching the America's it also introduced these pathogens to a new population which had no immunity. The mortality rate among Americans on the eastern seaboard in the period between first contact and colonization is somewhere north of 95%.  What the Pilgrams encountered wasn't a virgin wilderness, but the overgrown infrastructure of a recently extinct population.  

The next consequence of this was that there was an insufficient population of indigenous people to put to work exploiting the resources of the "New World."  So labor had to be acquired.  Slavery was a time tested solution and the Portuguese, who had the greatest expertise in trans Atlantic navegation made a market in supplying the America's with African slave labor.  

In the 15th & 16th centuries, slavery was one of the many things that life could deal out.  If you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, anyone could be captured and enslaved.  The peoples of the Mediterranean were enslaving each other all the time. Arabs were importing slaves from Africa and dealing them into the east.  The thing that was different about the Atlantic slave trade was that the displacement caused by the sailing ship was as extreme as if you or I was transported to Mars. The other thing was that slavery took on a racial aspect that did not exist in the Mediterranean. You couldn't tell that a Greek or a Turk was a freeman or a slave, but on the western shores of the Atlantic, anyone that was black was a slave. In these was American Slavery is distinct from other slave holding traditions.

It is also important to point out that the African societies didn't know or particularly care about what they were getting themselves into.  They didn't know what actually happened after the ships sailed away, and they didn't know just how much of their populations they would be exporting.  In some ways this was as if another plague tore through the population and carried away the young and the fit.

The further refinement of the sailing ship brought more and more people from Europe including the disposed and labor classes who were willing to risk all for a chance to work.  Ultimately this made more economic sense than slavery, and the Colonies closest to Europe could abandon owning labor because there was plenty available for rent on a daily basis. You didn't have to feed, clothe and house them either. As a final kicker, the commerce they created buying food etc added to the economies of the north and made them grow faster than the slave colonies of the south.

A long way around to saying that the consequence of Columbus' voyages to America was the North Atlantic Slave Trade and to a certain extent the Black Lives Matter movement.  

SHC

So we can blame Genghis Khan for rap music? I want somebody more accountable.

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15 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Blame his descendants 

I'm tired of blaming myself. I want someone else to bitch at.

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16 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

It was this guy.. but I wouldn't complain too loudly.

images (99).jpg

Quite so. And he does have descendants.

//J

 

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18 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Quite so. And he does have descendants.

//J

 

he's got some......nowhere near as pretty though

trump.jpg

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On 10/9/2017 at 5:33 PM, Whisper said:

 I’m tired of taking the blame for shit my family played no part of in the past 1000 years.

Tough.

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Just now, Whisper said:

Die Jammer.  You have no value.

I think of him as a benchmark, like zero tide.

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On 10/9/2017 at 9:36 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Norse this article is based upon science author Jared Diamond's theory that society's collapse cannot be attributed solely to environmental factors, and in this case believes the Vikings were driven out of Greenland by the Inuit. However this guy also seems to want his cake and eat it too as he then goes on to say the driving force to which he attributes the demise of civilisations like that on Easter Island and the Mayans was entirely environmental. Interestingly most of his critics believe him wrong on these three counts where Vikings in Iceland was 100% environmental and Easter Is and the Mayan civilisations was a combination of factors. The Vikings short stay (a few years at best) in North America was clearly not environmental (excluding distance from their homeland) and so their demise a combination that included opposition from the locals.

Agree re the short stay on NFLD.

The other reasons include Greenland's dying trade with Europe and Christianity. Others speculate that Skraelings had little to barter compared to other trade partners.

List of Skraelings  Where is Vinland?

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Norse Skraeling actually doesn't sound like a derogatory name unlike say the Greek word barbarian. 

The map is interesting as it describes people's who didn't move around very much and farmed conditions permitting. However their cousins in the central western plains were largely nomadic, following and surviving off the back of the buffallo, a practise which unfortunately lead to their demise in the late 1800's. 

This wasn't natural but a cleaver way the American Government reacted to getting beat up by Crazy Horse and his crew at little Big Horn, because they tried to change the Indian peace treaty on account the economy was shot and they wanted access to the gold on Indian lands. So they simply put a bounty on the buffalo who were then wiped out along with Indians. That is how Buffalo Bill got his name, killed over 4,000 in 18 months just by himself.

 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Norse Skraeling actually doesn't sound like a derogatory name unlike say the Greek word barbarian. 

The map is interesting as it describes people's who didn't move around very much and farmed conditions permitting. However their cousins in the central western plains were largely nomadic, following and surviving off the back of the buffallo, a practise which unfortunately lead to their demise in the late 1800's. 

This wasn't natural but a cleaver way the American Government reacted to getting beat up by Crazy Horse and his crew at little Big Horn, because they tried to change the Indian peace treaty on account the economy was shot and they wanted access to the gold on Indian lands. So they simply put a bounty on the buffalo who were then wiped out along with Indians. That is how Buffalo Bill got his name, killed over 4,000 in 18 months just by himself.

 

Millennials doesn't sound like a derogatory name either...and what are they doing moving to the Rock?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/millennials-rural-newfoundland-trend-lifestyle-bonavista-trinity-1.4344151

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On 10/15/2017 at 12:30 PM, Norse Horse said:

Millennials doesn't sound like a derogatory name either...and what are they doing moving to the Rock?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/millennials-rural-newfoundland-trend-lifestyle-bonavista-trinity-1.4344151

Yeah, that's really gotta suck, where everyone is a small businessman, and supports other small businessmen locally. They'd better get a Tim Horton's to supply crap coffee and fat pills in there Stat!

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On 12/10/2017 at 10:15 AM, Steve Clark said:

A brief treatise on the America's....

A long way around to saying that the consequence of Columbus' voyages to America was the North Atlantic Slave Trade and to a certain extent the Black Lives Matter movement.  

SHC

I have learned much from Steve Clark on these forums, but never before about slavery, plague and American History !  Fuck I love this place - thanks SHC for that insight.

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On 10/15/2017 at 12:28 PM, jack_sparrow said:

This wasn't natural but a cleaver way the American Government reacted to getting beat up by Crazy Horse and his crew at little Big Horn, because they tried to change the Indian peace treaty on account the economy was shot and they wanted access to the gold on Indian lands. So they simply put a bounty on the buffalo who were then wiped out along with Indians. That is how Buffalo Bill got his name, killed over 4,000 in 18 months just by himself.

 

I would be be very skeptical of that claim by Cody. He lived for the spotlight.  

It's not as ridiculous as some of the claims, but it's still close to 9 buffalo a day for 18 months straight.  Remember, the goal wasn't just killing them.  The money ($$) was in the hides and meat (tongues for bounty).  When you consider wagons and skinners trying to deal with 1500 lb animals it gets more onerous, then you take into account carrying 4000 rounds of ammo (and 45-70's with 405gr bullets are big and heavy).  Hunting wasn't what nearly ended the bison.

It doesn't fit the narrative of over hunting, but the near extinction of the bison corresponds to the cattle herds being driven north from TX in the 1870s.  There are documented stories of explorers finding valleys in WY full if dead bison.  No doubt there was wanton slaughter of the bison, but the real damage was done by disease.  It's just not possible for hunters with wagons and horses to have eradicated the species as far reaching and in the numbers as the bison heard.

 

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1 hour ago, XTR said:

I would be be very skeptical of that claim by Cody. He lived for the spotlight.  

It's not as ridiculous as some of the claims, but it's still close to 9 buffalo a day for 18 months straight.  Remember, the goal wasn't just killing them.  The money ($$) was in the hides and meat (tongues for bounty).  When you consider wagons and skinners trying to deal with 1500 lb animals it gets more onerous, then you take into account carrying 4000 rounds of ammo (and 45-70's with 405gr bullets are big and heavy).  Hunting wasn't what nearly ended the bison.

It doesn't fit the narrative of over hunting, but the near extinction of the bison corresponds to the cattle herds being driven north from TX in the 1870s.  There are documented stories of explorers finding valleys in WY full if dead bison.  No doubt there was wanton slaughter of the bison, but the real damage was done by disease.  It's just not possible for hunters with wagons and horses to have eradicated the species as far reaching and in the numbers as the bison heard.

 

They are notoriously hard of hearing. They also don't fly.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/1989/09/10/hes-not-making-this-up/197bac9e-b668-4b4d-96db-d7f357f83588/?utm_term=.58bd946bdc0b

 

 

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On 12/10/2017 at 1:45 AM, Steve Clark said:

A brief treatise on the America's.

If you have to blame someone, blame Genghis Kahn.  The Mongolian Hegenomy stabilize Central Asia and made the Silk Road a saf e passage between Mediterranean and the Far East.  This dynamic period, came to a nasty end when eastern pathogens found new hosts in the east. The plague killed enough people to break the  Silk Road, and enough Europeans and Africans to crater both societies.  The people who survived had enhanced resistance to these diseases, and their offspring could endure diseases that had been lethal only generations before.

When the sailing ship developed that was capable of reaching the America's it also introduced these pathogens to a new population which had no immunity. The mortality rate among Americans on the eastern seaboard in the period between first contact and colonization is somewhere north of 95%.  What the Pilgrams encountered wasn't a virgin wilderness, but the overgrown infrastructure of a recently extinct population.  

The next consequence of this was that there was an insufficient population of indigenous people to put to work exploiting the resources of the "New World."  So labor had to be acquired.  Slavery was a time tested solution and the Portuguese, who had the greatest expertise in trans Atlantic navegation made a market in supplying the America's with African slave labor.  

In the 15th & 16th centuries, slavery was one of the many things that life could deal out.  If you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, anyone could be captured and enslaved.  The peoples of the Mediterranean were enslaving each other all the time. Arabs were importing slaves from Africa and dealing them into the east.  The thing that was different about the Atlantic slave trade was that the displacement caused by the sailing ship was as extreme as if you or I was transported to Mars. The other thing was that slavery took on a racial aspect that did not exist in the Mediterranean. You couldn't tell that a Greek or a Turk was a freeman or a slave, but on the western shores of the Atlantic, anyone that was black was a slave. In these was American Slavery is distinct from other slave holding traditions.

It is also important to point out that the African societies didn't know or particularly care about what they were getting themselves into.  They didn't know what actually happened after the ships sailed away, and they didn't know just how much of their populations they would be exporting.  In some ways this was as if another plague tore through the population and carried away the young and the fit.

The further refinement of the sailing ship brought more and more people from Europe including the disposed and labor classes who were willing to risk all for a chance to work.  Ultimately this made more economic sense than slavery, and the Colonies closest to Europe could abandon owning labor because there was plenty available for rent on a daily basis. You didn't have to feed, clothe and house them either. As a final kicker, the commerce they created buying food etc added to the economies of the north and made them grow faster than the slave colonies of the south.

A long way around to saying that the consequence of Columbus' voyages to America was the North Atlantic Slave Trade and to a certain extent the Black Lives Matter movement.  

SHC

Great essay. Thanks.

Isn't the 95% figure mooted for central and southern America, rather than north America? I've spent five minutes on Wikipedia, so am a great expert now . . .

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