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C. Spackler

Heavy #1 vs #2

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We typically shift directly from our #1 (150%) to our #3 (105%) on our masthead rigged boat.  For those in-between days, we've been getting by with a used sail from a fractionally rigged boat, It's about a 145% sail on our boat, but the luff is short which helps to keep the power down low and the slot open. Seems ugly, but it worked fine until the sail disintegrated...because it gets the hell beat out of it.  

Now shopping for a new sail. Wondering about the functional differences between a heavy #1 vs a #2.  It seems many people use these terms interchangeably, but I've always thought a heavy #1 to be a 150% with the leach hollowed out and maybe a shorter luff that can handle gusty conditions. While a #2 is a regular cut 130% sail with a normal cut leach. 

Any practical comments on how these sails actually differ in cut and how they behave? 

Thanks!



 

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5 minutes ago, C. Spackler said:

We typically shift directly from our #1 (150%) to our #3 (105%) on our masthead rigged boat.  For those in-between days, we've been getting by with a used sail from a fractionally rigged boat, It's about a 145% sail on our boat, but the luff is short which helps to keep the power down low and the slot open. Seems ugly, but it worked fine until the sail disintegrated...because it gets the hell beat out of it.  

Now shopping for a new sail. Wondering about the functional differences between a heavy #1 vs a #2.  It seems many people use these terms interchangeably, but I've always thought a heavy #1 to be a 150% with the leach hollowed out and maybe a shorter luff that can handle gusty conditions. While a #2 is a regular cut 130% sail with a normal cut leach. 

Any practical comments on how these sails actually differ in cut and how they behave? 

Thanks!



 

The type of boat, and type of sailing would help a lot.

 

Just remember about free advice, its worth exactly what you pay for it. 

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It depends on the boat doesn't it?

 

My heavy #1 is a 155% sail cut as big as it can be and holds shape from about 5 knots to 20 knots apparent upwind.  We usually switch to the #3 before seeing it's upper limit, and use the drifter (about 130% but very lightly made) in lighter conditions.  

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Schock 35, a masthead 35' racer/cruiser boat.  Going straight from the #1 to the #3 is pretty common for the boat, but it'd be nice to have an in-between sail to save our #1 from sailing in the top of it's wind range too often. 

But I'm mostly interested in the technical differences between a #1 vs a heavy #1 or regular #2.

Honestly, four head sails is three to many for any sane person, but that's the life of an 80's race boat owner. 

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The 35 class did not allow #2 as a cost cutting measure. But that just meant more crew on the rail & 3! heavies blowing out quicker. A racing 2 will be full hoist, about 140% overlap, pretty flat cut sail. Less than 140 overlap the sheeting angle gets wider & the sail shape gets round as the sail still has to get around the shrouds. Not used much, but a weapon in it's 3 - 4 knot range.

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L/M/H #1 in my experience are all the same cut just different materials/cloth weights to handle their respective wind ranges.

 

When you start fooling with luff/foot lengths or leech hollows/clew heights is when I think you get into the #2/#3 range. When you have noticeabley different cuts.

 

HW

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Typically I would think a L/H #1 are same dimensions, but the H will be flatter, have less luff round, and obviously heavier cloth.

#2 is definitely smaller.

 

Your real question should be - what's the overlap of  #1L & #2 ?  Can you carry the #1L safely into a high enough wind range (12+ TWS?) that a change to #2 doesn't hurt.

 

If the answer is no overlap, or very little, then you need a #1H as well, or replace with a heavier all-purpose #1.

 

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26 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Typically I would think a L/H #1 are same dimensions, but the H will be flatter, have less luff round, and obviously heavier cloth.

 

Less luff round?

The H would need more luff hollow to allow for more forestay sag wouldn't it?

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#1's are traditionally all the sames size.  Just flatter and heavier as you work up the range.  Max size usually either 150 or 155 on a genoa boat.  A #2 is defined as anything between 135 and 150, generally on the bigger end to make the sheeting angles work around the shrouds.  A #2 will be heavier and flatter than the heaviest #1.  A #3 will be 100-105.

Generally all of the jibs are full hoist until you get to a #4 or #5, generally to keep a higher aspect ratio.

 

The 35 would be best with a #2 in the 145-148 range to cover the biggest gap between the #1 and #3.  Stick with an AP (all purpose) #1.  Anything else would be too many sails or too big of a gap to the #3.

Also don't get too hung up on the sail names.  Get a sail maker who will build the right sail for your inventory.

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2 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

Wouldn't one increase forestay tension in higher winds?

Yes generally.  On a boat with straight spreaders and a masthead rig like a Schock you need to use the backstay, and possibly shorten the headstay itself.  Check the headstay sag, 4-6" in light, less in heavy.

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My Schock has light 1 / heavy 1 / 3 / 5 jibs.

My older heavy 1 is a full 153%.  Newer heavy one is smaller, I'd say 10" shorter on foot.  Exactly as you'd expect, the boat is lightning fast in the smaller sail when you are uprange.  But, the overlap in ranges shrinks as you shrink the sail area - really this means the cost of picking wrong dail becomes unacceptably high...

 

If I was starting from scratch I would get an AP#1 and probably a 2ish sized sail, rather than light and heavy #1 sails.  The reason being, the Schock is a weapon upwind in light air anyways and I could afford to sacrifice a bit of light air oomph for a Genoa with a wider range and fewer sail changes.  The 2 would help us find a low/fast mode that we are missing because you'd be able to drop traveller without the main backwinding immediately.

But any discussion of sail design on this boat can not be complete without tossing in the option of a code 4 jib and code 6 main combination.   Mmm mmm.

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So a true heavy #1 is the same dimensions as a light, just heavier material and a flatter cut. No hollowed out leech or shorter luff. 

I'm hearing a #2 is likely the better option than a heavy #1. I didn't realize a #2 was one design prohibited, I was told "they didn't need a #2". Good to know.

Considering the beam of a Schock, prioritizing a flat boat makes sense.  We always go to the #3 early just to keep the boat flat and pointing nicely. We have mostly flat water, and rarely need the power to work thorough chop. While singlehanding I regularly even reef the main, which other Schock sailors have told me is sacrilege....but flat is fast in my book. 

We have a #4 jib that serves as our storm/delivery sail.   But what is a Code 6 main?     

24 minutes ago, Schnick said:

a code 4 jib and code 6 main combination

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Reefed main is slow.  

 

Code 4 jib would be about the size of a 2, say 145%.  Code 6 main would be bigger (roach plus foot length) by about the same amount you gave up in the headsail.  End goal would be more efficient sailplan, more downwind S.A., same rating.  Look for it on my boat first.

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Yes, properly trimmed full (bladed out) main usually faster than reef - as long as at least the batten panel is kept flying. Once the battens are flogging, than reef. Tales a LOT of work by helm & trimmer.

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A heavy #1 would be the aproximate size of the regular #1 but made from a heavier cloth and with more reinforcements to handle the upper wind range.

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15 hours ago, longy said:

Yes, properly trimmed full (bladed out) main usually faster than reef - as long as at least the batten panel is kept flying. Once the battens are flogging, than reef. Tales a LOT of work by helm & trimmer.

well yes -- just questioning the blanket 'reef is slow'.  It certainly aint' in most boats in 30+ with a #3 or less up, for example.

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Chill out guys. If you want to keep a full main while singlehanding on a breezy day with ZERO weight on the rail and the autopilot driving, be my guest. I never said anything about reefing with a racing crew aboard. 

I do appreciate the comments about the technical difference between a light and heavy #1. 

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I use a number 2 on all the different boats I've owned, although it is much more common not to have one and just go from a #1to a #3.  I like a 130 or so % sail because one can tack easier and sail with fewer crew.  Also, I like them for just day sailing with a couple people.  Back when I had a light #1, a heavy #1, a #2, and a #3, I found myself never using my heavy #1.

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35 minutes ago, DRDNA said:

 Also, I like them for just day sailing with a couple people.  

I have a #2 for the same purpose, but don't think of it as one of our racing sails.  Our #2 is cut with a higher clew so that it doesn't need to be skirted, is (tri-radial) dacron to better handle abuse during short handed sailing, and sized at about 135% to give decent performance in light air when short handed (so not enough weight on the rail).  I worked with Ballard Sails to have this made specifically for cruising and doublehanded races like Race to the Straits.  They even sized it with a slightly short luff so that we could put it on a furler if we ever went in that direction.

For racing we jump from the #1 to #3, and most of the time the #2 isn't even on the boat.  When cruising I leave the #1 and #3 at home and bring the #2 and #4 (our #4 is a 98% sail just like the #3, but cut with a higher clew and made with heavy dacron instead of being a laminate sail).  The drifter is the only sail that comes with us no matter the conditions.

My #1 is an AP sail biased towards being a heavy #1 (as you'd expect from something "all purpose").  I could see the value in a light #1 for racing to fill the gap between the drifter and AP #1, but it's not really in the budget (and at some point more sails just get in the way).

I've never sailed on a Schock 35, but I think it has a fair amount in common with my Express 37.

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  I've been having the same conversation with a couple sailmakers regarding our Bianca 111 MH rig.

I think a lot of this is semantic.  Our AP #1 is a UK Tapedrive 155%.  We then have a dacron #3 (says #2 blade on it in market fro the PO but again semantic) that is full hoist, 105%, with a very hollow leech.  

I've been thinking about a #1 heavy too.  The difference described to me between this and a #2 is the #2 is in the 130% range where a heavy #1 would be ~145-148% with a hollow leach to keep the sheeting angle.  

I feel like the problem we have is no good sail from about 12-18kts TWS when racing.

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Heavy #1 same size as other #1's, but flatter cut, & heavier cloth. A #2 is a bit smaller, flat cut, & often made of dacron due to the beating it takes when tacking in a breeze, thanks to it's overlap of the shrouds. One feature common in many of them is to have a slightly elevated tack & clew as compared to say a #1. So that when the bow submarines, or a solid greenie combs the deck, the sail doesn't catch the full force of the water. Otherwise it'd be much more prone to tearing/blowouts. As to whether or not you incorporate this feature depends on the wave conditions where you sail when it's #2 weather. And how much your bow does or doesn't get  swept by big waves. Since every boat has certain sets of conditions where she'll regularly porpise through waves as long as you're going upwind, & the conditions don't change.

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We race our J35 under a rating system, not one-design. And I experimented with an old HV1 where in I hollowed out the leech so that around the top spreader it had the width as #3. I know had a sail with power down low and a lot less heeling force up high. The first race we used it, boats that owed us time were behind us on the beats. This was because sometime a #3 lacks power when even #2 can be overpowering. 

That sail lasted two races as it was a panelled sail. Which was ok as I was just answering my “What If” question. So I then ordered a Tape Drive #2 with the hollowed leech and never needed a #3 since. 

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