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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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rh2600

Dan Bernasconi Describes The Three AC75 Concepts

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55 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Don't waste your time trying to compare mono vs multi speeds. They won't compare favourably. They never have.

For anyone that rates speed as a thrill sailing is way down the list as far as competitive sporting events go anyway.

There are guys pedaling bikes faster than any AC boat has ever gone 

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We recently watched the 65s race; agreed winds were light but what an excruciating yawn.

Monohulls, unless they're 18s or Moths or of similar ilk, are finished.

And even the 18s are going to be dumped for the new tri-foiler.

Maybe Guiiaume Verdier can surprise us with a beyond radical 75 foot monohull; one we have never seen before, in fact has never existed  - but he is going to be held back by old world farts yabbering in his ear?

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1 hour ago, BobBill said:

Maxmini +1. Helmets on sailboats say it all!

Thank god they lid up on J's and more these days.

Putting aesthetics ahead of someone else's safety? Safety every time.

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5 hours ago, Groucho Marx said:

We recently watched the 65s race; agreed winds were light but what an excruciating yawn.

Monohulls, unless they're 18s or Moths or of similar ilk, are finished.

And even the 18s are going to be dumped for the new tri-foiler.

Maybe Guiiaume Verdier can surprise us with a beyond radical 75 foot monohull; one we have never seen before, in fact has never existed  - but he is going to be held back by old world farts yabbering in his ear?

Let's hope.

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You "sail" you do not need helmet. Your armchair tunes will change...we hope!

You want alternative art...Ninja out of SA, but too small to be noticed, sadly gone.

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18 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Don't waste your time trying to compare mono vs multi speeds. They won't compare favourably. They never have.

probly what OR engineers were saying in 2011: These cats will never foil.

Never say never.

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22 minutes ago, barfy said:

probly what OR engineers were saying in 2011: These cats will never foil.

Never say never.

You're right.  But SbD is right, no mono will fly as a multi

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6 minutes ago, jorge said:

You're right.  But SbD is right, no mono will fly as a multi

What does that mean? Does a Moth fly "as a multi" or faster and better than most? Does a Quant 23 keelboat " fly "as a multi" while it takes off before a foiling A cat in light air?

There tremendous potential to design a very, very fast flying 75' keelboat! Despite what some punks and old men are saying........

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2 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

What does that mean? Does a Moth fly "as a multi" or faster and better than most? Does a Quant 23 keelboat " fly "as a multi" while it takes off before a foiling A cat in light air?

There tremendous potential to design a very, very fast flying 75' keelboat! Despite what some punks and old men are saying........

You know what I mean. No matter how much potential it has, a 75 ft. monohull foiler can't compete  with a multihull foiler. And certainly won't be as fast as AC 50 nor AC72. Period. End of it. No matter how much pods or foils you stick to it. And I really doubt a  75 ft. monofoiler can stay on it's foils for more than one leg

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37 minutes ago, jorge said:

 I really doubt a  75 ft. monofoiler can stay on it's foils for more than one leg

Perhaps Bernasconi and Verdier say

dgjLj.gif

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  ^ Once again, don't forget that it's not Just Bernasconi and Verdier: whatever concept they come up with, it has to be something designers from other teams may be able to develop competitively too

On the opposite tack, paradoxically Marcelino Botín's hiring by the NYYC suggests that the AC75 won't be a "big TP52". Since all recent TP52s have been designed by him - and by Judel-Vrolijk, with less success, nobody else - ETNZ and LR would be stupid in giving such an advantage to the competition. A canting keel and some embryonic foils are now more than likely

 

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As for scaled up moth designs, come on guys, get off the coolaid. We are going to get boats that are similar to VOR70s (or 65s), or IMOCA60s. In all reality, I am gutted they aren't simply using IMOCA60. The ROI for having a boat that can be used again and again would make the race finally relevant to sailing. Joining the global circuit of fastnet, vendee, hobart, etc. Finally getting a proper professional circuit embedded into the existing events - and getting a 20 boats faster then Oats and Comanche,,, f'n priceless!

 

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4 hours ago, jorge said:

You know what I mean. No matter how much potential it has, a 75 ft. monohull foiler can't compete  with a multihull foiler. And certainly won't be as fast as AC 50 nor AC72. Period. End of it. No matter how much pods or foils you stick to it. And I really doubt a  75 ft. monofoiler can stay on it's foils for more than one leg

An AC72? Given the agricultural foil control it would be a shame if they didn't manage that.

The issue isn't so much the potential speed. It's whether a high performance foiling mono hull will actually address any of the criticisms of the cat in terms of prestart action, stored power requirements and sail handling.

If it gets near AC72 speed then sail handling is out the window.

If it requires foils for stability that's low speed prestart manoeuvring gone.

If the foils extend to give the required righting moment that's close sailing gone.

If there's swinging lead that means stored power will have to stay or the cost of tacking and gybing will be prohibitive.

The reality is that the only way to deliver what the critics want is a low ride relatively low performance keelboat. Not surprising because everything they want is a function of racing 2 low ride relatively low performance keelboat.

The 3 concepts thing does sound like they've been exploring the possibilities. It's a shame that they've started off with such an apparently limited aesthetic vision to judge them by but may be also that's where you end up for grandeur, limited reliance on stored power and safety.

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2 hours ago, ipexnet said:

 

As for scaled up moth designs, come on guys, get off the coolaid. We are going to get boats that are similar to VOR70s (or 65s), or IMOCA60s. In all reality, I am gutted they aren't simply using IMOCA60. The ROI for having a boat that can be used again and again would make the race finally relevant to sailing. Joining the global circuit of fastnet, vendee, hobart, etc. Finally getting a proper professional circuit embedded into the existing events - and getting a 20 boats faster then Oats and Comanche,,, f'n priceless!

 

Why not an imoca60 with a wingmast?

 

Should be significantly faster and not impossible to use in vendee if you find some smart way if changing area of the mast.

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26 minutes ago, arneelof said:

Why not an imoca60 with a wingmast?

 

Should be significantly faster and not impossible to use in vendee if you find some smart way if changing area of the mast.

Will it match race though? The semi-foiling ones certainly not.

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at https://wtop.com/europe/2017/10/british-star-ainslie-mentors-next-generation-of-sailors/

Ainslie said he’s OK with the shift.

“I guess on the face of it it’s a more traditional approach,” Ainslie said. “From what I can understand, I think this will be in a monohull something like we’ve never seen before. Therefore it still will hopefully fulfill the requirements for being fast and exciting, especially for young people coming through. I’m positive about it.”

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6 hours ago, rgeek said:

The reality is that the only way to deliver what the critics want is a low ride relatively low performance keelboat. Not surprising because everything they want is a function of racing 2 low ride relatively low performance keelboat.

Good post. But the inherent conflict is that a low-ride, low-performance keelboat does not achieve the stated goal of 40 minute races (and apologies if I got the time target from the protocol wrong) ... a 40-minute race in low-performance keelboats would have to be on an INCREDIBLY short course, and then you have removed the opportunity to match race. 

So they MUST be thinking of a high-performance high-speed boat. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. 

Both BA and the NYYC teams have mentioned, in one form or another, that the design brief from what they know so far will be for a monohull that the world has never before seen. 

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4 hours ago, rgeek said:

Will it match race though? The semi-foiling ones certainly not.

 

I guess a wing mast actually makes it a better match racer (faster tacks).

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5 hours ago, arneelof said:

Why not an imoca60 with a wingmast?

 

Should be significantly faster and not impossible to use in vendee if you find some smart way if changing area of the mast.

 

Let's use the proper terms guys ... a wing mast is a teardrop-shaped, relatively large chord rotating spar. It so happens it already is one of two standardized options on IMOCAs (the other being a fixed spar with spreaders). What you are referring to is a wing sail

Now, reefable wing sails, there's been a number of attempts over the years, the latest one by VPLP (pictures somewhere) might be promising. If I understood correctly, the main issue has always been eliminating wrinkles on the leading edge by maintaning adequate longitudinal tension

 

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9 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

  ^ Once again, don't forget that it's not Just Bernasconi and Verdier: whatever concept they come up with, it has to be something designers from other teams may be able to develop competitively too

On the opposite tack, paradoxically Marcelino Botín's hiring by the NYYC suggests that the AC75 won't be a "big TP52". Since all recent TP52s have been designed by him - and by Judel-Vrolijk, with less success, nobody else - ETNZ and LR would be stupid in giving such an advantage to the competition. A canting keel and some embryonic foils are now more than likely

 

Interesting logic, however, remember that Verdier and Bernasconi were necessary to the 3 concepts, it does not mean they will choose the most advanced one.

I don't know why they would choose a regular foil assist in an AC race where the upwind legs are key,  unless they have the possibility to put them up during the upwind legs.

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  ^ Or reserve foils for the reaching leg: don't forget the Prot has the intriguing possibility of a triangle course

(Edit: is it the Prot or which other doc?)

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22 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

  ^ Or reserve foils for the reaching leg: don't forget the Prot has the intriguing possibility of a triangle course

(Edit: is it the Prot or which other doc?)

Yes, from the Prot:

.. the Course to be a windward-leeward Configuration with an upwind Start and may include one or more reaching legs as further Specified by COR/D in the Conditions

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4 hours ago, BobBill said:

Seriously, who cares?

About Sir Ben's endorsement of the new ACC? Nobody.

If he ever holds the Cup aloft, I'll probably have a listen. Until then - noise.

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

 

  ^ Or reserve foils for the reaching leg: don't forget the Prot has the intriguing possibility of a triangle course

(Edit: is it the Prot or which other doc?)

Yes, reaching and downwind.

After reading what is going around here is my unaducated guess:

- Light flat hull

- Huge code 0

- side retractable foils

- 2 rudder foils

- they may full foil on the reach, not sur sure downwind

Nothing really exciting for me, excepted full foiling reach, if it happens.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

at https://wtop.com/europe/2017/10/british-star-ainslie-mentors-next-generation-of-sailors/

Ainslie said he’s OK with the shift.

“I guess on the face of it it’s a more traditional approach,” Ainslie said. “From what I can understand, I think this will be in a monohull something like we’ve never seen before. Therefore it still will hopefully fulfill the requirements for being fast and exciting, especially for young people coming through. I’m positive about it.”

You need to get an English to American translator working for you. His comments say he is highly sceptical but he will sail whatever he has to. 

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TC

Past Cup competitions have seen the boat trailing on a downwind leg use their position to interfere with the flow of wind to the lead boat.  Will a return to a monohull restore this tactic?  And does the tactic depend on a boat using a spinnaker?  I'm thinking the center of effort created by a spinnaker is too far forward to be mitigated by foil design.  So a match between foiling multihulls would preclude the tactic I look forward to seeing again.

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1 hour ago, scassani said:

TC

Past Cup competitions have seen the boat trailing on a downwind leg use their position to interfere with the flow of wind to the lead boat.  Will a return to a monohull restore this tactic?  And does the tactic depend on a boat using a spinnaker?  I'm thinking the center of effort created by a spinnaker is too far forward to be mitigated by foil design.  So a match between foiling multihulls would preclude the tactic I look forward to seeing again.

 

Spinnaker, more correctly called gennaker or Code 0 on fast boats will definitly be present on AC75, so I would say yes.

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4 hours ago, scassani said:

TC

Past Cup competitions have seen the boat trailing on a downwind leg use their position to interfere with the flow of wind to the lead boat.  Will a return to a monohull restore this tactic?  And does the tactic depend on a boat using a spinnaker?  I'm thinking the center of effort created by a spinnaker is too far forward to be mitigated by foil design.  So a match between foiling multihulls would preclude the tactic I look forward to seeing again.

That's not a multi vs mono issue.  It's a slow boat vs fast boat issue.  The boat behind can't interfere with the boat ahead unless the apparent wind is aft of the beam.  Even my cruising tri goes downwind at 90 deg apparent, so an AC boat would have to be slower than that to return to downwind covering tactics.

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30 minutes ago, Basiliscus said:

That's not a multi vs mono issue.  It's a slow boat vs fast boat issue.  The boat behind can't interfere with the boat ahead unless the apparent wind is aft of the beam.  Even my cruising tri goes downwind at 90 deg apparent, so an AC boat would have to be slower than that to return to downwind covering tactics.

Do you have any insight into what this AC75 will be? It must surely be being spread through various grapevines.

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36 minutes ago, Basiliscus said:

The boat behind can't interfere with the boat ahead unless the apparent wind is aft of the beam.

So, if the problem that they want to solve is "how do we bring back tactics that worked for International Rule boats", one requirement is slow boats. NTTAWWT.  However, as pointed out by rgeek, the mooted designs aren't that.  What problem are they trying to solve?

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52 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Do you have any insight into what this AC75 will be? It must surely be being spread through various grapevines.

No.

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7 hours ago, weightless said:

So, if the problem that they want to solve is "how do we bring back tactics that worked for International Rule boats", one requirement is slow boats. NTTAWWT.  However, as pointed out by rgeek, the mooted designs aren't that.  What problem are they trying to solve?

They are trying to get apples from an oak tree

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12 hours ago, Basiliscus said:

That's not a multi vs mono issue.  It's a slow boat vs fast boat issue. 

Exactly.

12 hours ago, Basiliscus said:

The boat behind can't interfere with the boat ahead unless the apparent wind is aft of the beam.  Even my cruising tri goes downwind at 90 deg apparent, so an AC boat would have to be slower than that to return to downwind covering tactics.

But even if the apparent wind is aft of the beam, the boat behind can't interfere with the boat ahead, if the boat ahead chooses to gybe away from the following boat and is not sailing ddw in order to maximize vmg.

Interference does only exist, when the boat behind is located in the opposite direction from the apparent wind of the leading boat that has vmg < true windspeed. I don't see the apparentwind aft of the beam as a criteria for anything relevant.

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12 hours ago, weightless said:

 What problem are they trying to solve?

The one that only exists inside someones brain, but not in the reality of sailing or sailboats.

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9 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

Interference does only exist, when the boat behind is located in the opposite direction from the apparent wind of the leading boat that has vmg < true windspeed. I don't see the apparentwind aft of the beam as a criteria for anything relevant.

It will depend of the boat they chose, and how fast it goes. And as they talk of huge code 0, it may not be that fast.

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12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It will depend of the boat they chose, and how fast it goes. And as they talk of huge code 0, it may not be that fast.

A boat with huge code 0 will never sail ddw when maximizing vmg. Thus no interference from boat behind on downwind legs, that isn't easy for the leading boat to avoid.

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