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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Shootist Jeff

Blue water performance cruiser - do they exist?

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I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

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50' to 60' is a hell of a lot of boat for two people to handle in all conditions. Unlikely that you could even carry one of the sails - would have to winch them on deck.

Do you want to be completely dependent on power type gear working all the time?

I'd go 10' shorter for what you want to do.

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Jeff,

Comes down to displacement when talking monos. Brianjb is probably a good guy to chat with. Doublehands a Big, heavy C&C 60 iirc or reach out to Evans. Keeping normal loads within the range of what a single person can handle makes a big difference in how simple it is to cruise. In my mind, 30k lbs displacement is an upper limit for a very capable couple.  Stealth Chicken is a good start for consideration.  

Brian’s main is about 250lbs, kites are 100, Genoa 150 just to give you an idea.  

OTOH, folks have cruised class 40’s and for a couple, I’d look very, very hard at a POGO.  When you go bigger, you’ll have to make more trades to limit loads.  

 

 

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It is not length that makes the loads, it is displacement as hinted above. Length is good for stability. As well as low displacement and reasonably narrow beam. I single- and double-hand a  Santa Cruz 50 all over the Pacific. I think it is perfect. Seven years now. She is in cruise configuration: windlass, asym, watermaker, dinghy, outboard. Can just lift the main out of the hatch. Sailing loads are low. The biggest headsail is 135% and not hard to lift...but little used as she flies along upwind and down with much less. Same displacement...about 10T as much smaller popular heavy cruisers.

You cannot carry all the popular cruising crap even though there is plenty of room: easy to overload. Don't think having SUPs, bicycles, tools, a gazillion spares, etc, would work. But that has not been a problem.

Performance boats can be a problem in some areas due to deep draft. But that is rare in the Pacific.

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20 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

50' to 60' is a hell of a lot of boat for two people to handle in all conditions. Unlikely that you could even carry one of the sails - would have to winch them on deck.

Sloop Low 50's SA/D around 15/16 with not a monster sail plan ie 500 ft2  main, good running rigging plan and decent winches not toys is very doable for a couple. 

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It is impossible for two people to crew a 60 footer easily - 53 ft is as big as you should go.Stanley Paris traded down for a reason.

Take a look at a Swan 48 (Frers version). Maybe a Farr Beneteau 50.

 

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There are two of my designs for sale right now that would work very well for you, possibly three. All three boats were designed for ex-racers who wanted to cruise with comfort and performance. STEALTH CHICKEN 56', FREE RANGE CHICKEN 59' and FOXFIRE 54'. They are all in my book. I don't know who the brokers are but I could give you contact info if you can't find them on Yachtworld. They are very comfortable and fast cruising boats. FREE RANGE CHICKEN was designed expressly for a cruising couple.

All three boats are in my book, if you can find a copy.

Here is FREE RANGE CHICKEN. Westrely Marine build, very nice.

37716457021_6718c72282_k.jpgFR Chicken  SP by robert perry, on Flickr

37459041050_64b66ad371_k.jpgFR Chicken layout by robert perry, on Flickr

37006995464_b85dd45697_k.jpgFRC by robert perry, on Flickr

37046336263_8a7922f137_b.jpgFR Chicken by robert perry, on Flickr

If you want more info you can contact me through my web site. I am not a broker.

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1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Pano. Those are nice picks. For two up, you are right.  The 14 is a better choice. 

Yes, the cigale 14 must be sub 15 000 lbs displacement empty thus you can manage everything by hand without being an elite athlete and it is still big enough to handle well all kind of weather. Finot owned one for quite a long time, it speaks a lot about the boat.

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38 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, the cigale 14 must be sub 15 000 lbs displacement empty thus you can manage everything by hand without being an elite athlete and it is still big enough to handle well all kind of weather. Finot owned one for quite a long time, it speaks a lot about the boat.

Listing says 15,400 empty, which is pretty impressive. Add 5k for cruising gear and stores and you are off the dock to cruise at just over 21. Should be pretty easy to handle. 

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

You would have done better to put this in Cruising Anarchy...

I used to race too, and I had the exact same thoughts and discussions with my wife. I couldn't bear to own something that was a "wallowing pig". We didn't buy something that was, IMHO, but some racers would prefer to commit seppuku before sailing on a boat like mine.

In reality, unless you move to something really light you will have to get used to some differences. Passagemaking and cruising is a VERY different style of sailing than racing. The type of attention to speed you put into a two-hour race around the cans is not something you're going to sustain for five days, never mind fifteen.

There are many boats that are faster cruisers, but still wouldn't be called "performance" by anyone that races. Our HR 53 is a good example. It's a Frers design, and sails quite well. We've put up 200 mile days and are faster than most cruisers we know. But we're still a heavy boat by any standard you're used to. Our keel weighs two tons more than the whole 40.7 I used to race. She's a big powerful boat, she points well, and is like a freight train on a reach. Waves need to be pretty big and steep to slow us down, unlike the 40.7 which would get slapped to a stop by them if you caught them wrong.

You are talking about a LOT of boat for two people at 50-55 feet. Kathy and I are now looking at an empty nest in less than a year, and are sometimes wishing we could stick Evenstar in the dryer and shrink her by about eight feet. With power winches, hydraulic furling, etc. we're not worried about being able to handle her so long as all systems are working properly. But that's it, it does require a number of electromechanical systems to keep the loads manageable. Changing sails is a pain in the ass; our sails weigh around 130 lbs (which is about 15-20 more than my wife) and are a nuisance to move around. Happily, they stay furled most of the time so changes are infrequent.

Here's another secret about pointing well - sailing to windward on passages sucks serious balls. If you have to do it for more than a day you will hate life, no matter how well your boat points. A couple of degrees of difference just aren't worth it for the motion, the heeling, and the lack of comfort. Most autopilots can't sail upwind for crap, so to make any kind of decent headway you're hand steering. You don't have ten guys flattening the boat for you, and it doesn't end in half an hour when you get to the windward mark. Hand steering a day of racing can be exhausting, and it can be just as demanding. That gets exhausting, eventually. Eventually comes quickly if there are only two of you. We hand steered 2,700 miles on a broad reach with four drivers and it was exhausting.

Cruisers spend a fair amount of our lives planning them so we don't have to sail upwind. I am not making this up; our trip from Tahiti to New Zealand was upwind most of the way and I never want to do that again. Even without the stuff that broke, it was a deeply unpleasant experience crapping, cooking and sleeping under a steep heel for 16 days. People sailing the Pacific from West to East from NZ (as we're likely to do in another year or two) sail way the hell south through the Australs and Gambiers to avoid sailing upwind in the trades for a reason.

Unless you put yourself on a closed end schedule and rush through every place you go with an eye on the next destination, you're going to spend 90% of your time at anchor. Life is a few passages a year, separated by little day sails and overnights. In truth, a daysail for fun becomes a rarity because it's a bit of a hassle. If you're someplace like Fiji or the Caribbean, you do enough moving around just changing islands and anchorages. Not that we don't do it on occasion, but generally our sailing is accompanied by a desire to get from point A to point B, eventually. We still enjoy the sails, but if you add up the days spent sailing versus days spent doing stuff locally, your passage time isn't a huge portion of your life.

YMMV of course, and you may find yourself ready to wrap yourself around an anchor and throw yourself overboard after your third consecutive 160-mile day. There's no speaking to personal preferences. But based on what I've seen for the last five years I'd rather be in something a bit more stout like an HR than something which is too light and will get slapped around offshore.

Our boat, or a boat like is not the solution for everyone and I'm not trying to suggest it is. But your sailing performance...as you'd think of it with a race boat anyway...really has a lot less effect on your life than many other comfort and safety issues will in the long term.

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

50' to 60' is a hell of a lot of boat for two people to handle in all conditions. Unlikely that you could even carry one of the sails - would have to winch them on deck.

Do you want to be completely dependent on power type gear working all the time?

I'd go 10' shorter for what you want to do.

This^^.

If I was leaving next year with just my wife and no kids, I'd be looking at something around 45-48', max.

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44 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

With power winches, hydraulic furling, etc. we're not worried about being able to handle her so long as all systems are working properly. But that's it, it does require a number of electromechanical systems to keep the loads manageable.

Don't know what winch sizes you have BJ but I notice most powered setups are on the limit of being undersized or worse. Being oversized in case you need to revert to manual mode would be a big help as well as the benefit of less load on motors and gearboxes. That obviously seldom happens as winch sizing these days is now done by accountants.

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9 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Don't know what winch sizes you have BJ but I notice most powered setups are on the limit of being undersized or worse. Being oversized in case you need to revert to manual mode would be a big help as well as the benefit of less load on motors and gearboxes. That obviously seldom happens as winch sizing these days is now done by accountants.

I have Lewmar 66 Ocean winches on the primaries. 48s for the secondary. They can move the sails OK, if we can find a winch handle...

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see undersized power winches on some boats being a problem.

"Undersized" is rarely a problem for anything on an HR except maybe a holding tank.

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There's a couple who have been circumnavigating the hard way (via the capes) on an Open 40 with 3 young kids. Get an IMOCA Open 60 , made for solo so two handed would be a piece of cake.

Just spend a few extra bucks on fitting some creature comforts, preferably made in CF and you'll be laughing.

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Imoca-Open-60--2509082/Italy#.WePYDBOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Finot-Conq-Ex-Imoca-60-%26amp%3B-Eco-60-Class-monohull-3116072/France#.WePYGhOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Imoca-Open-60--2509079/United-Kingdom#.WePYKxOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/Neville-Hutton-Imoca-60-3041727/France#.WePYNxOCxFw

 

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For (non) starters, the interior of an Open 60 is pretty small and awkward for the amount of waterline, and you can't really change much of it as a lot of it is structural bulkheads etc...

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A Open 60 conversion would be OK for deaf dwarfs with built in shock absorbers. Also deep keeled waterballasted/canter not very friendly and you won't be seeing too many anchorages in a lot of places.

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  The noise of the slamming carbon fiber drum will drive you to a Mcgregor 26.  Alex T always had noise canceling earbuds hanging around his neck - and i'm sure the rest of the fleet did also, we just didnt see such candid shots of them

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FREE RANGE CHICKEN has cruised Mexico, been thru the Canal and done up and down the East Coast It's a capable two person cruising boat that is a lot faster than a H-R. In boom furling helps as does the frac rig with smaller headsails. Put up a masthead asym in a sock and have some fun. I thought that was one of the OP's origonal requirements.  Four powered winches also help. Given the relatively low displ of a boat like this so long as tankage and gear stowage requirements can be met, I don't see a down side. I think being over 13,000 lbs lighter than the H-R 53 makes handling easier.

 

I suspect  the asking rice at $873,000 is more than the Op would like.

Nevermind.

37012103254_9345ed9038_b.jpgFRC upwind by robert perry, on Flickr

 

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45 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

FREE RANGE CHICKEN has cruised Mexico, been thru the Canal and done up and down the East Coast It's a capable two person cruising boat that is a lot faster than a H-R. In boom furling helps as does the frac rig with smaller headsails. Put up a masthead asym in a sock and have some fun. I thought that was one of the OP's origonal requirements.  Four powered winches also help. Given the relatively low displ of a boat like this so long as tankage and gear stowage requirements can be met, I don't see a down side. I think being over 13,000 lbs lighter than the H-R 53 makes handling easier.

 

I suspect  the asking rice at $873,000 is more than the Op would like.

Nevermind.

37012103254_9345ed9038_b.jpgFRC upwind by robert perry, on Flickr

 

Nice boat, lools fun.

I think an HR53 is too big for two people, especially starting out cruising with it.

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Something to consider is draft. Many places and boats, it’s not an issue but other places, a 9’ Draft means anchoring our, missing some of the better places or just skipping the region. Probably worth deciding up front what your maximum harbor draft will be. For example, Stealth Chicken is a great boat but the 9.5’ Draft makes her a non starter for a lot of places. 

 

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I know someone planning on doing this with a Santa Cruz 50. Someone else on here was posting really nice photos of an Olson 40 being fixed up for cruising.  It seems like there are a lot of options in old racer/cruisers that can do the job. Since the boats are lighter the loads aren’t too huge.  Draft would be an issue in areas though, and of course the boats are usually missing standard cruising gear like heat, a windlass, etc.

We do a lot of coastal cruising in our Express 37, but I think I’d want something with more built-in storage for longer trips. Our boat really doesn’t have any (my prior Pearson 28-2 had more) and we live out of suitcases when cruising.  The bigger Oyster Lightwave 42 is based on the same design and could be nicer for cruising.  

 

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The ULDB's have plenty of room for your storage. But you do not want to use it. At least half my many SC50 lockers are absolutely empty. There is that huge sail storage area just ahead of the mast, and the entire stern volume is only empty fuel jugs and fenders...air. If you fill up the lockers with "storage stuff" you should probably look at a higher displacement boat as you will lose the entire reason for having a ULDB. 

Those CIGALE's posted above are the right idea. Most of the others suggested miss the idea of racer-pleasing performance. The reason they sit at anchor is they are zero fun to sail. And too much work. Sailing a ULDB is more like sailing a dinghy. Flies upwind in 5 or 25 knots, which is frequent for a cruiser on the move vs. one that languishes in port looking for that elusive "window". I have no power assist except the anchor windlass. Most of the time I have not even had that. The only grunt task I dread is grinding the mainsheet in a heavy air gybe. Small jibs are plenty quick and tack almost effortlessly.

It is really to best way to cruise. No extra junk to buy, lug around, repair. Shorts, flip flops, a toothbrush, satphone, a box full of cash, and a few other things. And older ULDB's are cheap to buy compared to the bloated furniture wagons. Who needs all the cherry wood joinery and two heads?

There is that old adage that a sailor's boat should be as long in feet as their age in years. Might move up to a 70.

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Don't know what winch sizes you have BJ but I notice most powered setups are on the limit of being undersized or worse.

 

6 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I have Lewmar 66 Ocean winches on the primaries. 48s for the secondary. They can move the sails OK, if we can find a winch handle...

4 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I think being over 13,000 lbs lighter than the H-R 53 makes handling easier.

 

3 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

i think an HR53 is too big for two people, especially starting out cruising with it.

BJ your LOA thoughts based on your HR53 are probably spot on. There is a lot of load happening.

However as Bob points out lighter displacement is easier to handle as the HR53 is carrying around 13000 lb more than his FRC and many other half decent slippery cruisers the same size.

As for ease of sail handling  yes older folk are helped by by the kite skills of Mr Franklin to power things up but as you correctly point out are only good if they are working . In terms of going to emergency manual mode you may be surprised that there are production boats of your HR's size and vintage and over 13,000 lb lighter, yet came standard with winches the next size up back then ie ST70's and 52's. 

That doesn't happen anymore as most winch offerings now resemble a Barmix.

 

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The Express 37 barely has any lockers.  There are some under the v berth that we always keep empty and a big shallow one under the quarter berth that has emergency PFDs and a race anchor and rode.  There is a small hanging locker across from the head for sheets and regular use PFDs.  Otherwise it is just tiny sliding lockers along the gunwales.

In comparison the SC50 has a lot of locker/storage space under the galley/dinette floor and in the pilot berths. 

The lack of lockers is great for racing because it prevents me from leaving tools or other dead weight onboard. For cruising it would be nice to have a little slightly organized space to throw our bags into, rather than constantly moving them out of the way. 

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6 minutes ago, Alex W said:

The Express 37 barely has any lockers.  There are some under the v berth that we always keep empty and a big shallow one under the quarter berth that has emergency PFDs and a race anchor and rode.  There is a small hanging locker across from the head for sheets and regular use PFDs.  Otherwise it is just tiny sliding lockers along the gunwales.

In comparison the SC50 has a lot of locker/storage space under the galley/dinette floor and in the pilot berths. 

The lack of lockers is great for racing because it prevents me from leaving tools or other dead weight onboard. For cruising it would be nice to have a little slightly organized space to throw our bags into, rather than constantly moving them out of the way. 

Different kettle of fish racing versus cruising coastally versus living aboard full time while cruising. Really, really different in terms of food, supplies, gear, how you use the boat, etc. Tankage, storage, and so on. Of course, it depends on where you are cruising, too. If your plans are island hopping in the Caribbean it's a different set of requirements than crossing the Pacific.

I almost bought an Express 37. The one I offered on would have been a lot of fun around the cans,  but had next to no functional interior. I couldn't see spending a weekend on that particular boat, though it could have been unique to it.

 

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50 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

BJ your LOA thoughts based on your HR53 are probably spot on. There is a lot of load happening.

However as Bob points out lighter displacement is easier to handle as the HR53 is carrying around 13000 lb more than his FRC and many other half decent slippery cruisers the same size.

As for ease of sail handling  yes older folk are helped by by the kite skills of Mr Franklin to power things up but as you correctly point out are only good if they are working . In terms of going to emergency manual mode you may be surprised that there are production boats of your HR's size and vintage and over 13,000 lb lighter, yet came standard with winches the next size up back then ie ST70's and 52's. 

That doesn't happen anymore as most winch offerings now resemble a Barmix.

 

The winch sizing concerns me much less than the furling, in our case. It is, on a good day, on calm weather, a pain in the ass to furl the sails in with the manual backup. You can do it, and I have before. But it's not something I'd want to try deep in the snot with a lot of wind.

Bob's insight is good as always; lighter boat = light loads, of course.

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Yes that is a good point. For some annoying reason builders often make their line furling winch the smallest in the drawer so line speed and load capacity challenged. A snatch block and strop to a bigger winch if available  is the remedy, but a PIA.

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2 hours ago, daddle said:

The ULDB's have plenty of room for your storage. But you do not want to use it. At least half my many SC50 lockers are absolutely empty. There is that huge sail storage area just ahead of the mast, and the entire stern volume is only empty fuel jugs and fenders...air. If you fill up the lockers with "storage stuff" you should probably look at a higher displacement boat as you will lose the entire reason for having a ULDB. 

Those CIGALE's posted above are the right idea. Most of the others suggested miss the idea of racer-pleasing performance. The reason they sit at anchor is they are zero fun to sail. And too much work. Sailing a ULDB is more like sailing a dinghy. Flies upwind in 5 or 25 knots, which is frequent for a cruiser on the move vs. one that languishes in port looking for that elusive "window". I have no power assist except the anchor windlass. Most of the time I have not even had that. The only grunt task I dread is grinding the mainsheet in a heavy air gybe. Small jibs are plenty quick and tack almost effortlessly.

It is really to best way to cruise. No extra junk to buy, lug around, repair. Shorts, flip flops, a toothbrush, satphone, a box full of cash, and a few other things. And older ULDB's are cheap to buy compared to the bloated furniture wagons. Who needs all the cherry wood joinery and two heads?

There is that old adage that a sailor's boat should be as long in feet as their age in years. Might move up to a 70.

There's a lot of ways to cruise, none are right, wrong or best. ULDB's look like fun, but I wouldn't want to cruise one.

A lot of it is how you choose to live, what lifestyle choices you make. A lot of it also has to do with where you cruise, how much time you plan to spend away from civilized hubs, etc. I know that for us having a freezer, a watermaker, a lot of storage and tankage - all that allowed us to spend a couple of months in the Tuamotus with four people, without feeling like we were camping. In theory we could have done it with a lot less, of course. But we'd be buying all our food from the local stores (very expensive, and also disrupts things a bit), we'd have spent a lot more time looking for things like water, and we would have had to hustle for diesel as well as for dinghy fuel.

The thing you have to do is sit down and figure out how you want to live, and choose accordingly.

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yes that is a good point. For some annoying reason builders often make their line furling winch the smallest in the drawer so line speed and load capacity challenged. A snatch block and strop to a bigger winch if available  is the remedy, but a PIA.

Not even an option for me, with hydraulic. I've got a little mini handle that you insert into the furler motor to crank the sail in if it packs up.

Hydraulics wouldn't have been my first choice for furling.

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manual-for-types-rb-rc-hydraulic-seldaac

You've got an 8" handle that you stick into that socket on the drum. A winch handle will fit, but on the headsail furler it gets messed up with the bow pulpit and is too big.

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16 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

A winch handle will fit, but on the headsail furler it gets messed up with the bow pulpit and is too big.

Would a low profile 8" handle work up front? Good speed but down on power.

IMG_20171016_150005.jpg

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Different kettle of fish racing versus cruising coastally versus living aboard full time while cruising. Really, really different in terms of food, supplies, gear, how you use the boat, etc. Tankage, storage, and so on. Of course, it depends on where you are cruising, too. If your plans are island hopping in the Caribbean it's a different set of requirements than crossing the Pacific.

I almost bought an Express 37. The one I offered on would have been a lot of fun around the cans,  but had next to no functional interior. I couldn't see spending a weekend on that particular boat, though it could have been unique to it.

 

Last year's Maui race our local competition was an Express 37.  The owner said that it was quite uncomfortable offshore - according to him it got thrown around a lot in the seas.  Mind you that race was marked by a bit of a difficult cross-sea for the latter third of the race.  

I was on a heavy displacement 43' Beneteau.  We did not get "thrown around" even a little, though sometimes we rounded up under kite when we probably shouldn't have.  Operator error may have been a factor.  However I would not go offshore on that particular model of boat again.  

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8 hours ago, hoppy said:

There's a couple who have been circumnavigating the hard way (via the capes) on an Open 40 with 3 young kids. Get an IMOCA Open 60 , made for solo so two handed would be a piece of cake.

Just spend a few extra bucks on fitting some creature comforts, preferably made in CF and you'll be laughing.

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Imoca-Open-60--2509082/Italy#.WePYDBOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Finot-Conq-Ex-Imoca-60-%26amp%3B-Eco-60-Class-monohull-3116072/France#.WePYGhOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Imoca-Open-60--2509079/United-Kingdom#.WePYKxOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/Neville-Hutton-Imoca-60-3041727/France#.WePYNxOCxFw

 

 

Not a good choice. Those people snapped a mast and spent 2 years stranded in Porto Williams.

 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Would a low profile 8" handle work up front? Good speed but down on power.

IMG_20171016_150005.jpg

No...too big. It's stupid little handle...

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1 hour ago, dash34 said:

Last year's Maui race our local competition was an Express 37.  The owner said that it was quite uncomfortable offshore - according to him it got thrown around a lot in the seas.  Mind you that race was marked by a bit of a difficult cross-sea for the latter third of the race.  

I was on a heavy displacement 43' Beneteau.  We did not get "thrown around" even a little, though sometimes we rounded up under kite when we probably shouldn't have.  Operator error may have been a factor.  However I would not go offshore on that particular model of boat again.  

Passages are like < %10 of your time cruising.

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17 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Passages are like < %10 of your time cruising.

and a point that proponents of high seas cruising on multis and wide open wind swept monos bang on about until their blue in the face. 

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15 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

My thought is that there's no such thing as a comfortable cruising boat that's fun to sail.

The best you can hope for is a comfortable cruising boat that is capable of bringing along a little boat that's fun to sail.

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35 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

My thought is that there's no such thing as a comfortable cruising boat that's fun to sail.

The best you can hope for is a comfortable cruising boat that is capable of bringing along a little boat that's fun to sail.

I disagree, but then that depends on what you mean by "fun".

If reaching along at ten knots is dull for you, then I suppose it may be impossible. How fast do you have to go for it to be fun?

Personally, I find sailing my own boat to be quite exhilarating most times, and I almost always enjoy it.  Light air...is pretty crappy in most boats and I will confess I don't love that, especially since we lost the cruising kite a few years back. But we cover a hell of a lot more water than we ever did in the 40.7. We saw that difference right away when all our local cruising destinations immediately got a lot closer.

Again...the characteristics that make a racing boat fun often make it less suitable or downright unpleasant to cruise. We used to race the 40.7 with 10 people. Yee-hah. Cruising with the family...if you tried to sail it the same way without all that weight on the rail it would be miserable.

There are definitely a lot of boats that an ex-racer would hate, no doubt. But there are plenty of cruising boats that sail well and make reasonable compromises.

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3 hours ago, savoir said:

 

Not a good choice. Those people snapped a mast and spent 2 years stranded in Porto Williams.

 

So???? They lost the mast in the southern ocean approaching Cape Horn which is something 99% of cruisers do not attempt. Open 60's are designed to sail in that region, so they are tough, but losing a mast can happen to any yacht that ventures there.

As for the 2 years, it can happen to anyone who does not have the cash reserves.

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12 hours ago, hoppy said:

There's a couple who have been circumnavigating the hard way (via the capes) on an Open 40 with 3 young kids. Get an IMOCA Open 60 , made for solo so two handed would be a piece of cake.

Just spend a few extra bucks on fitting some creature comforts, preferably made in CF and you'll be laughing.

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Imoca-Open-60--2509082/Italy#.WePYDBOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Finot-Conq-Ex-Imoca-60-%26amp%3B-Eco-60-Class-monohull-3116072/France#.WePYGhOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Imoca-Open-60--2509079/United-Kingdom#.WePYKxOCxFw

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/Neville-Hutton-Imoca-60-3041727/France#.WePYNxOCxFw

 

Hoppy, he's a lunatic. Memory is a bit rusty but didn't Chilean Navy order him off the boat but instead used the kids as bargaining chip & got a tow. Then begged & borrowed for new mast. Got a shorter one, spent two seasons getting threatened with deportation trying to sort it out. Not exactly how I'd want to do it. Sure he almost made it round the cape .... great. 

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18 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

50' to 60' is a hell of a lot of boat for two people to handle in all conditions. Unlikely that you could even carry one of the sails - would have to winch them on deck.

Do you want to be completely dependent on power type gear working all the time?

I'd go 10' shorter for what you want to do.

Evans Starzinger and his wife doublehanded a 47'  customized Van de Stadt Samoa around the world.

I sailed with him once and I don't recall any powered winches. It can be done.

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Evans Starzinger and his wife doublehanded a 47'  customized Van de Stadt Samoa around the world.

I sailed with him once and I don't recall any powered winches. It can be done.

There is a world of difference between Evans' boat and my 53 footer in terms of loads, etc. 6-7 feet can make a pretty huge difference in weight and size. Especially if a boat is designed from the ground up to be sailed short-handed on long passages, which most stock 55ish foot boats are not.

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20 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Jeff,

Comes down to displacement when talking monos. Brianjb is probably a good guy to chat with. Doublehands a Big, heavy C&C 60 iirc or reach out to Evans. Keeping normal loads within the range of what a single person can handle makes a big difference in how simple it is to cruise. In my mind, 30k lbs displacement is an upper limit for a very capable couple.  Stealth Chicken is a good start for consideration.  

Brian’s main is about 250lbs, kites are 100, Genoa 150 just to give you an idea.  

OTOH, folks have cruised class 40’s and for a couple, I’d look very, very hard at a POGO.  When you go bigger, you’ll have to make more trades to limit loads.  

 

 

New pogo 50 sounds like a perfect boat.  14 foot draft with board down, 4 with it up.  spectacularly well sailing boat and designed from a starting point of shorthanded sailing.  Definitely worth a look.  Interior is quite comfortable looking despite being an absolute rocket.

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Of course you can have a boat that is race boat fun to sail and comfortable. Maybe not Open  40 or TP52 fast but fast enough to do well in many races. FRC has been cruising pretty much full time since it was launched. The owner is older than I am and I am 71. He has always said how much he loved the boat.

This whole subject is so very subjective. "Fun" is subjective. "Performance" is subjective. "Comfort" is subjective.  Ease of handling is subjective. How we see our own sailing skills are very subjective.

The  52' Schumacher design HEART OF GOLD ( D/L around 100 I estimate) owned by Jim and Sue Coreman did a circumnavigation in fine fashion going fast and comfortable. The Corenmans love their boat. They are not young people. There is no comparison in the performance of HOG and a H-R 53. Is there a comparison in the fun factor? BJ's having fun. The Corenmans are having fun, Bruce, owner of FRC is having fun.

I think there is danger in getting too pedantic on this question. Different boats for different folks.

STARBUCK (56' D/L  100  Displ 28,000 lbs.) was home and cruiser the Clutes owned for 22 years. Bill Clute is ten years older than I am. He just sold the boat. This is a fine example of a fast, comfortable, easy to sail offshore capable cruising boat. At least in the eyes of Bill Clute. There is not one answer.

37684773376_2a11873b7e_b.jpgStarbuck hard on wind by robert perry, on Flickr

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

So???? They lost the mast in the southern ocean approaching Cape Horn which is something 99% of cruisers do not attempt. Open 60's are designed to sail in that region, so they are tough, but losing a mast can happen to any yacht that ventures there.

As for the 2 years, it can happen to anyone who does not have the cash reserves.

 

So an Open 40 is not a good choice of cruiser. Neither is any other form of open class racer. In fact it's downright stupid, unless you like Porto Williams.
 

3.jpg

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20 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

STARBUCK (56' D/L  100  Displ 28,000 lbs.) was

I like those numbers for solid and slippery. Bob is there egrees via  hatch up front or only via the companionway?

PS. Well lite photographs like that make all the difference.

 

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5 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I disagree, but then that depends on what you mean by "fun".

If reaching along at ten knots is dull for you, then I suppose it may be impossible. How fast do you have to go for it to be fun?

Personally, I find sailing my own boat to be quite exhilarating most times, and I almost always enjoy it.  Light air...is pretty crappy in most boats and I will confess I don't love that, especially since we lost the cruising kite a few years back. But we cover a hell of a lot more water than we ever did in the 40.7. We saw that difference right away when all our local cruising destinations immediately got a lot closer.

Again...the characteristics that make a racing boat fun often make it less suitable or downright unpleasant to cruise. We used to race the 40.7 with 10 people. Yee-hah. Cruising with the family...if you tried to sail it the same way without all that weight on the rail it would be miserable.

There are definitely a lot of boats that an ex-racer would hate, no doubt. But there are plenty of cruising boats that sail well and make reasonable compromises.

Speed isn't inherently fun in boats until about 60 knots and I don't have access to Sailrocket.

It isn't so much speed as feel. I like little boats, preferably one that will capsize. And big boats that have some of the responsive feel of little ones. That tends to go away with comfort.

I am amused by bashing through big waves going upwind in cruising boats. At least for a little while. All that weight sure can make some water fly! I get tired of where it lands after a while.

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Jack:

Yes, there is egress from the interior or the deck, if that was your question.

I've been trying to come up with an answer to this basic question for 45 years. You'd think by now I'd have all the parameters distilled down to one perfect offshore cruising boat.

" Here Mr. Client, This is the boat you want. No. Trust me. I know." That's never going to happen.

YONI weighs 50,000 lbs and has an LOA of 50'. STARBUCK weighs 28,000 lbs. and has an LOA of 56'. Both owners had basically the same requirements. Both owners think they got the perfect boat. It's subjective!

Here is STARBUCK's layout. Note the bath tub, an owner requirement.

37476072660_35949a79b8_h.jpgStarb layout by robert perry, on Flickr

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Surveyed a Sundeer 56 a while back, I though that it was pretty much what I would be looking for in a shorthanded blue water performance cruiser

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Jeff,

This is one of those questions that is too subjective without additional requirements definition on your part...And to some degree, I would say you don't know enough yet to actually define those requirements...Its a big step to sell it all and buy the perfect boat on the first try.  For example, you don't define where around the world you want to cruise.  Cruising the Med or the Carribbean is different than cruising the southern regions of South America...

Webb Chiles went around on a Moore 24, and there was a couple that cruised a J/109 around the world too.  Daddle cruises his SC50, but is happy in shorts and flip flops...BJ cruises with his family with more stuff, but can stay off in remote areas longer with less support (till something major breaks anyway), etc, etc.

As BJ says, many cruisers spend less time sailing and more time in an area, living on the boat.  But not all, so it depends on what the goal is.  Is there enough money in the kitty or in monthly retirement income to spend a couple nights with SWMBO in a nice hotel every month or so?  If yes, then likely need less "stuff" on the boat.  Are you going to spend all the time on the boat?  Then likely need more "stuff" on the boat...Does SWMBO consider car-camping in a tent on a prepared site with water and electrical a luxury or roughing it?

While all us racers say upwind performance matters, most point to point cruising is not hard on the wind.  And most route plan to make it that way.  Square rigged ships sailed all over the world, and could barely work they're way upwind.  So giving up the last couple degrees of point seems a pretty reasonable compromise.  With only two of you onboard, how hard do you each want to work every day, every watch to extract max performance out of your performance boat?  A boat that can get to 90% and stay there without you having to constantly "mind" it will likely result in more miles per day over the long run, than a boat that has to be worked hard all the time.

Where are you starting and ending?  New boat or used?  $200K, $500K or $1.5M.  After your couple years of sailing round the world, are you selling the boat and going back to land?  Or keeping the boat and going back to shore...or are you never coming back until age prevents you from sailing the boat?

Etc, etc, etc.

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Gotta be a Gunboat 

Mind you used start at 7 figures.

That should get line honors in any cruising class

Gunboat48-5.jpg

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21 hours ago, savoir said:

 

It is impossible for two people to crew a 60 footer easily - 53 ft is as big as you should go.Stanley Paris traded down for a reason.

Take a look at a Swan 48 (Frers version). Maybe a Farr Beneteau 50.

 

I love these blanket statements. I've got a friend running a Deerfoot 62. Himself. Yeah, he signs up crew. There's always some 20s something wanderer  types around - and he tells me there's a crew list. Most of the time is at anchor anyway. Might as well be comfortable.

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:39 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

My first thought is of course they do and more so than ever before in history.

My second thought is they do not because of how the racing and cruising words are going opposite directions in many cases.

To elaborate, "racing" is ever more specialized high performance boats. If you aren't doing 40 knots on foils with sails made of spun gold and paying your crew the annual median yearly income per day, you surely have an old 6KSB and should just give up and cruise. If your "cruiser" does not have a genset, 1,000 watts of solar, batteries stolen from the neighbor's Tesla, air conditioning, heat, hot water, cold water, warm water, fridge, freezer, microwave, satellite TV, a dinghy worth more than both my cars, and more radar sets than the Navy then you are really just a floating homeless person and need to give up and check into the nearest shelter for the night before curfew :rolleyes:

There is a very large spectrum of performance and comfort out there. Island Packets are comfortable and slow, Deerfoots are comfortable and fast, and Amel has perfected sailing big boats with pushbutton ease. It is all available now. What you *really* need to think over once, twice, and three times over is you are buying a HOME. In my experience almost NO ONE that is some combination of live-aboard and voyager is going out for daysails. Everything that is uncomfortable or awkward will bother you every single day and tacking up a river in light air is a rare thing as is high speed offshore. Pushing a boat hard is just too much work for a few people on a long passage. Even if you never step aboard one, read the Dashew's books about the Deerfoot and sailing in general. They really optimized for fast (for cruisers) speed with comfort and low effort. Also we have a resident naval architect here with some experience in this are you can leverage ;)

Also read all of BJs posts and think on these things. If you have a lot of stuff, you'll be fixing a lot of stuff and you need to know how all your stuff works.

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28 minutes ago, savoir said:

You could always get yourself a 62 footer and show us all how it is done. Talk is cheap.

 

that's not my gig. And yes, talk is cheap, but I just hung out with the guy a week ago. He'll be in the Baja Haha

 

Speaking of the HaHa - there's a pretty good example of the diversity of opinion on what makes a good cruising boat.

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31 minutes ago, savoir said:

You could always get yourself a 62 footer and show us all how it is done. Talk is cheap.

 

I knew a guy that single-handed a 95 foot boat. The boat was easier to handle than my 35 foot boat and much faster*

*unless the electrical and hydraulic furlers and winches broke, which would suck donkey balls if you were alone :o

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5 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I knew a guy that single-handed a 95 foot boat. The boat was easier to handle than my 35 foot boat and much faster*

*unless the electrical and hydraulic furlers and winches broke, which would suck donkey balls if you were alone :o

no doubt.

 

But there are plenty of Stealth Chickens, Deerfoot(s/Deetfeet?) and Sundeer(s) out there.  Outbound 44/46 for something smaller.

 

I'll never do it - so feel free to ignore.

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Got any pics of him getting the sails on and off the boat ? Single handed of course. Solo sailors must be independent.

What about a shot of him cranking on the main after the electric winch has crapped out ? Don't worry, if it is electrical it will crap out sooner or later.

The internet is loaded with dreamers who comment with approval on this type of big cruiser but never actually do it. There is a 113 ft cruiser called Apache for sale in Portsmouth RI. It has been there gathering dust for 5 years because it's too big you see. By the way, is it still there at Hinckleys ? I have not looked in a few months.

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Wylie 51, 21,000 pounds, short rig. 5 winches total. Cold molded with Klegicell core. I singlehand it, and cruised for a.year and hàlf with wife ànd 12 year old son. The boat has been over 23k only.3 times. We designed it to get to Hawaii in under ten days. I am reluctantly thinking of selling it. PM me if you find this interesting. 

 

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5 minutes ago, savoir said:

Got any pics of him getting the sails on and off the boat ? Single handed of course. Solo sailors must be independent.

What about a shot of him cranking on the main after the electric winch has crapped out ? Don't worry, if it is electrical it will crap out sooner or later.

The internet is loaded with dreamers who comment with approval on this type of big cruiser but never actually do it. There is a 113 ft cruiser called Apache for sale in Portsmouth RI. It has been there gathering dust for 5 years because it's too big you see. By the way, is it still there at Hinckleys ? I have not looked in a few months.

who said he sailed solo? This isn't PA - you can read the simple note that he signs up crew on some crew list and not feel like you have to win an internet argument. He's told me his boat has crew signed up for the next 3 months, and he doesn't bother any further out than that.  My point, not well stated clearly, is that extra crew seem readily available for passages, then kick them off when you're chilling at anchorage.  As BJ said, hanging out is 90% of cruising anyway.

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6 minutes ago, poncho said:

Wylie 51, 21,000 pounds, short rig. 5 winches total. Cold molded with Klegicell core. I singlehand it, and cruised for a.year and hàlf with wife ànd 12 year old son. The boat has been over 23k only.3 times. We designed it to get to Hawaii in under ten days. I am reluctantly thinking of selling it. PM me if you find this interesting. 

 

would love to see a pic or two/three...

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23 hours ago, savoir said:

 

It is impossible for two people to crew a 60 footer easily - 53 ft is as big as you should go.Stanley Paris traded down for a reason.

Take a look at a Swan 48 (Frers version). Maybe a Farr Beneteau 50.

 

I don't think that would be good choice for big boats to be sailed by a small crew. These are medium to heavy displacement and will be quite hard on the crew.

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