Blue water performance cruiser - do they exist?

[Shootist Jeff 1,170]

On 10/19/2017 at 4:26 PM, Innocent Bystander said:

Seriously, listen to BJ.  Anytime you buy a brokerage boat and sail it for a couple of years prior to heading off you have to plan for

- Rigging inspection and potential replacement

- New main and primary headsail plus full inspection of other sails

- New electronics unless new at purchase.  Figure they have a 10 year life cycle and check if the manufacturer still supports what is installed.  If you cant buy a display or have a controller fixed, you might want to start the cruise with fresh stuff rather than put in a new system on some remote island. 

- New batteries

- Major engine service or rebuild

- Major generator service or rebuild

- Raft service or replacement

Basically, the more complex the boat, the higher the prep costs even if the boat has been well maintained and passes a stringent survey.  You need to plan that in the "boat cost" prior to sailing away.  You've set an expensive bar in a 50 plus foot performance cruiser.  Some great boats out there but they are not cheap to purchase and maintain. 

IB and KIS - both very good bits of advice.  Thanks.

[B.J. Porter 1,301]

1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

On 10/19/2017 at 10:26 PM, Innocent Bystander said:

Seriously, listen to BJ.  Anytime you buy a brokerage boat and sail it for a couple of years prior to heading off you have to plan for

- Rigging inspection and potential replacement This is actually pretty good; we put new standing rigging on a couple of years ago. But a few of my halyards and other lines need replacement soon. At this size, you generally need the expensive lines - very strong, high modulus if you don't want freaking tree trunks hanging from the rig. That's like the $3-$4/foot or more stuff (e.g. 7/16" Endura, I believe).  Your halyard length needs at least 150-160 feet (67' each way up and down, plus some tail and splicing).

- New main and primary headsail plus full inspection of other sails Brand new main, but the headsails are older. Newest one is from 2011, though the 100% working jib I'm flying right now is original to the boat I do not believe it has ever been hoisted before we put it up a couple of months ago. Are sails are generally in working shape now that the ten year old main is replaced. A new main or headsail from something like Hydranet radial is ~$8K ish.

- New electronics unless new at purchase.  Figure they have a 10 year life cycle and check if the manufacturer still supports what is installed.  If you cant buy a display or have a controller fixed, you might want to start the cruise with fresh stuff rather than put in a new system on some remote island.  I upgraded the electronics completely in 2010. The MFD's are old school big chunky style, not flat screen, not touch. They work, but they are nearing EOL and could consider upgrading. The Autopilot works, but speaks NMEA 0183 instead of N2K. The radios are solid.

- New batteries I'm actually covered on this, I just dropped a ton on LiFePO4 batteries and had a kickass bank that could be good for 10-20 years. The only issue is the new battery chargers aren't compatible with the old school charging methods of wind, solar, and alternator for technical reasons I won't go into here. So there are some things to be kluged in still.

- Major engine service or rebuild My Volvo Penta TAMD41-HA is twenty years old now. That's a 145HP turbo diesel; good sized engine. We pulled it out of the boat two years ago and gave it a reasonable going over, but I've no doubt things would turn up in survey. I'm about to replace the wet exhaust muffler ($722 USD for the part, plus it needs to be cut and welded).

- Major generator service or rebuild The Genset is two years old. Pretty good shape there.

- Raft service or replacement Due for service again, dammit. It's five years old though and should be good. $1,000 - $1,500, depending on what gear needs replacing (SOLAS flares are expensive)

Basically, the more complex the boat, the higher the prep costs even if the boat has been well maintained and passes a stringent survey.  You need to plan that in the "boat cost" prior to sailing away.  You've set an expensive bar in a 50 plus foot performance cruiser.  Some great boats out there but they are not cheap to purchase and maintain. 

My teak is a horror. I re-caulked it about seven years ago, but its getting pretty due for replacement. One our AC units is wonky; we never use it so we haven't gotten around to sorting it. The saloon cushions are also pretty grotty after five years in the tropics (and 20 years of use), though that's something we'd likely replace before selling for curb appeal. Ditto for the shitty carpets. We're just about to put a new membrane in the water maker, and I just replaced the primary feed pump as well (the two were related though...feed pump fails = can't pickle watermaker to protect it). My refrigeration is...creaky, old and inefficient. If I were leaving all over again I'd rip it all out and replace it.

Bottom line is an actively cruised boat is always a work in progress, and there's always stuff deferred. Unless someone parks the boat and dumps a crap-ton of money into right before you buy it, which most people don't want to do because $1.00 put into the boat never adds $1.00 to the sale price, you're going to win the work list with the boat.

Oh, and the bottom needs to be painted again, though we're booked to get hauled in two weeks for that. That's another $4K or so.

 

IB and KIS - both very good bits of advice.  Thanks.

Just for comparison...comments on my "sail away, cruise ready boat" that I live on and am actively cruising. Comparable vintage boats (1997 Hallberg-Rassy 53, +/- say three years) are running $440K to $521K in generally similar condition, and you'd be looking at an as-is, where-is deal on them for the most part unless a real deal breaker turned up in survey.

I bought the boat in 2006 for $550K, and have probably put $100K or more into her in upgrades, systems, and maintenance preparatory to going cruising. If you bought it today I'd be shocked if, after survey and your planning, it would take less than 10%-15% of the cost of the boat to get it ready to go anew. Not including replacing the teak.

You want to pre-emptively sort as much as you can before you go. With few exceptions, parts and equipment are almost all cheapest in the U.S.

 

[kent_island_sailor 1,899]

11 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Just for comparison...comments on my "sail away, cruise ready boat" that I live on and am actively cruising. Comparable vintage boats (1997 Hallberg-Rassy 53, +/- say three years) are running $440K to $521K in generally similar condition, and you'd be looking at an as-is, where-is deal on them for the most part unless a real deal breaker turned up in survey.

I bought the boat in 2006 for $550K, and have probably put $100K or more into her in upgrades, systems, and maintenance preparatory to going cruising. If you bought it today I'd be shocked if, after survey and your planning, it would take less than 10%-15% of the cost of the boat to get it ready to go anew. Not including replacing the teak.

You want to pre-emptively sort as much as you can before you go. With few exceptions, parts and equipment are almost all cheapest in the U.S.

 

This is exactly why I suggest a 1 year cruise that starts and ends in the USA and doesn't get too far away. For the most part it will be MUCH easier to fix anything here in a major yachting port than elsewhere. If the radar craps out halfway between Annapolis and Newport, buy a new one.  At the end of the year everything should be sorted.

[Marinatrix447 24]

*60/40 mix*

This Shipman's been on the market (cough) for sometime.... the carbon build should bring points-n-prizes performance wise...

http://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/2007-shipman-50-5954508/

Still time to get it over this fall/winter via the trade wind route to St. Lucia... then bring it home to the USA... Just remember its on 220v so you'd need to buy EU rated electricals appliances... like a hair-dryer if your other half has long hair....or a Laptop if you're using that for admin/nav  back-up.

Tis why few folk this side of the pond will buy a USA 110v fitted boat...too much hassle to change out.

[Innocent Bystander 347]

31 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is exactly why I suggest a 1 year cruise that starts and ends in the USA and doesn't get too far away. For the most part it will be MUCH easier to fix anything here in a major yachting port than elsewhere. If the radar craps out halfway between Annapolis and Newport, buy a new one.  At the end of the year everything should be sorted.

KIS,

Keep in mind, Jeff is in the UAE at present and has already said he would put in 2-3 years of coastal cruising before heading off so he would have that time to "discover and fix" as well as put 2-3 years of wear and tear on things so he'd get a good start on working a project list.  If his plan is to buy the boat and keep it in AD, that will complicate things getting it there and getting away. 

Jeff.  You going to come home and do this stateside or try to stay as a expat and have the boat there until you head off? 

[Shootist Jeff 1,170]

1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

KIS,

Keep in mind, Jeff is in the UAE at present and has already said he would put in 2-3 years of coastal cruising before heading off so he would have that time to "discover and fix" as well as put 2-3 years of wear and tear on things so he'd get a good start on working a project list.  If his plan is to buy the boat and keep it in AD, that will complicate things getting it there and getting away. 

Jeff.  You going to come home and do this stateside or try to stay as a expat and have the boat there until you head off? 

That's the dilemma at the moment.  Ideally, I would like to get the boat and bring here as there is lots of coastal cruising to be done and I could do it will still earning money to sink into this money pit.  If I came back to the US, that might be more difficult to do as I would likely earn 1/2 of what I am over here.  So.....

And I'm not sure keeping it here will necessarily complicate things.  Yes, the costs would be higher for some things.  But labor is probably far cheaper for other stuff.  Lots of boats available in the Med or in the the Indian Ocean (thailand, Malaysia, Indo, etc) and all deliverable to the UAE.  We have friends who bought a 55' or 58' something in Thailand and sailed it here and now they live aboard it in AD.  

[Elegua 231]

On 10/19/2017 at 5:26 AM, Innocent Bystander said:

Seriously, listen to BJ.  Anytime you buy a brokerage boat and sail it for a couple of years prior to heading off you have to plan for

- Rigging inspection and potential replacement

- New main and primary headsail plus full inspection of other sails

- New electronics unless new at purchase.  Figure they have a 10 year life cycle and check if the manufacturer still supports what is installed.  If you cant buy a display or have a controller fixed, you might want to start the cruise with fresh stuff rather than put in a new system on some remote island. 

- New batteries

- Major engine service or rebuild

- Major generator service or rebuild

- Raft service or replacement

Basically, the more complex the boat, the higher the prep costs even if the boat has been well maintained and passes a stringent survey.  You need to plan that in the "boat cost" prior to sailing away.  You've set an expensive bar in a 50 plus foot performance cruiser.  Some great boats out there but they are not cheap to purchase and maintain. 

Right. So if you push this analysis then you you get to; well, if you are going to need to replace everything anyways, why not buy a design you like that is fully depreciated and as un-modified as possible? Either way, you're never going to get your money back, other than the market value of what you have tied up in the hull. If you do the mods yourself, at least you know where and how things are screwed up. One line from BJ I won't forget is, "I can screw this up myself for $100/hr". 

Personally I think it makes sense to buy something where if God's thumb came down and squished it, and insurance didn't pay, you'd could easily replace it without impacting your plans that much.  

 

[Zonker 931]

I'm surprised BJ has an issue with propane. Never had any real struggles finding it. Our friends with a kerosene stove would sometimes buy little 1L glass bottles of it because that was all there was. Lots of fun with 10 bottles clinking in the backpack on the bus. 

We carried 2 x 18 lb fiberglass tanks + 1 x 10 lb BBQ/backup tank. A tank would last easily 6 weeks if kid wasn't baking a ton of cookies with friends. (Ovens are on a lot longer than a top burner cooking food). So ~3-4 month supply with the 2 main tanks. Left Mexico with full tanks. Filled in Tahiti, Fiji, and uh Oz; that's all I can recall for Pacific Crossing. April - Nov inclusive = 8 months. So starting with full tanks you get 3+ months, then a fill in Tahiti (both tanks; 1 only needed a top up), gets you another 3 months, until Fiji. Didn't stop in New Cal. Any place there are lots of cruisers you'll find the local entrepeneur who will fill tanks.

Top cruiser tip: If your fiberglass tank is getting close to date for reinspection, you can sand off the molded manufactured date. It's on the plastic cover, not the tank itself. Then heat up those little metal punches you use to stamp metal parts until they are hot. Push into plastic cover and voila, new date. I may have had to do this in Oz. In Oz where even though the tank was certified for sale, and I had the manufacturer's documents saying so, nobody would do an inspection of it. Oz is very anal about rules / safety. It was also the only country where one marina flat out refused to fill the tank, saying they could only fill steel tanks.

[kent_island_sailor 1,899]

58 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Right. So if you push this analysis then you you get to; well, if you are going to need to replace everything anyways, why not buy a design you like that is fully depreciated and as un-modified as possible? Either way, you're never going to get your money back, other than the market value of what you have tied up in the hull. If you do the mods yourself, at least you know where and how things are screwed up. One line from BJ I won't forget is, "I can screw this up myself for $100/hr". 

Personally I think it makes sense to buy something where if God's thumb came down and squished it, and insurance didn't pay, you'd could easily replace it without impacting your plans that much.  

 

This is a well known factor in buying used and applies to airplanes and cars too to an extent.

1. Buy the best and let the previous owner eat deprecation of the new boat and/or improvements. We did that with a 3 year old boat that was hardly used when we got her.

2. Buy the worst because you are going to fix everything anyway. Why pay extra for things you want to replace anyway.  Why pay extra for an old vacuum tube radar, 9 sails that are all end-of-life, etc etc

[B.J. Porter 1,301]

7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is exactly why I suggest a 1 year cruise that starts and ends in the USA and doesn't get too far away. For the most part it will be MUCH easier to fix anything here in a major yachting port than elsewhere. If the radar craps out halfway between Annapolis and Newport, buy a new one.  At the end of the year everything should be sorted.

You can't get anywhere in a year - what's the fun of that? A year isn't enough to touch even a fraction of the Caribbean.

Prep well, carry spares, and learn how to do as much of the work yourself as you can.

[El Boracho 499]

7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

..... At the end of the year everything should be sorted.

Ha ha ha. Everything will be one year closer to failure.

[B.J. Porter 1,301]

4 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'm surprised BJ has an issue with propane. Never had any real struggles finding it. Our friends with a kerosene stove would sometimes buy little 1L glass bottles of it because that was all there was. Lots of fun with 10 bottles clinking in the backpack on the bus. 

We carried 2 x 18 lb fiberglass tanks + 1 x 10 lb BBQ/backup tank. A tank would last easily 6 weeks if kid wasn't baking a ton of cookies with friends. (Ovens are on a lot longer than a top burner cooking food). So ~3-4 month supply with the 2 main tanks. Left Mexico with full tanks. Filled in Tahiti, Fiji, and uh Oz; that's all I can recall for Pacific Crossing. April - Nov inclusive = 8 months. So starting with full tanks you get 3+ months, then a fill in Tahiti (both tanks; 1 only needed a top up), gets you another 3 months, until Fiji. Didn't stop in New Cal. Any place there are lots of cruisers you'll find the local entrepeneur who will fill tanks.

Top cruiser tip: If your fiberglass tank is getting close to date for reinspection, you can sand off the molded manufactured date. It's on the plastic cover, not the tank itself. Then heat up those little metal punches you use to stamp metal parts until they are hot. Push into plastic cover and voila, new date. I may have had to do this in Oz. In Oz where even though the tank was certified for sale, and I had the manufacturer's documents saying so, nobody would do an inspection of it. Oz is very anal about rules / safety. It was also the only country where one marina flat out refused to fill the tank, saying they could only fill steel tanks.

It's not in "issue" as in impossible, it's just never as easy as it should be and is often a pain in the ass. We've had a couple of times where we've run out and been stuck for a day or three trying to refill. Our propane locker only fits 2 x 11lb tanks, so we're running 6-8 weeks max on a full refill. So I'm typically looking to fill one tank every 3-4 weeks or so before the other runs out. If you can carry more it would be less of a problem. I wouldn't expect a light, modified boat to carry much more. But with our setup, it seems I'm constantly looking for propane.

When I bought the boat there were three 20lb Home Depot style tanks on it. They were installed in the aft lazarette and secured with bungy cords and foam and plumbed in with rubber hosing. The PO was a smoker; I'm amazed he didn't blow the boat up. Our propane locker is designed to take some tall skinny Euro style tanks I've never been able to find in years of looking. I re-plumbed that locker in properly with flare fittings and put in the tanks I can fit. There are some FRP tanks we've seen that hold a bit more, next time we have to replace a tank we'll likely get one of those if we're someplace you can buy them.

Tahiti is a good example though. We arrived from the Tuamotus without a puff of propane left. We never found a place to refill in the Tuamotus. You can get LPG at a lot of gas stations in Tahiti. But they only send them in for refilling I think twice a week, and our tank is gone for a couple of days. Our first 2-3 days in Tahiti we ate out, ate cold, or ate from the deli counter at Carrefours. We still had hot water for showers and cleaning up.

Fiji was easy to refill; one of the easiest. A five minute cab ride outside Savusavu. Australia is a mid/moderate pain, depends on where you are. Some places like the Pittwater, a few of the waterfront marinas refill LPG. On the Coast there's a dive shop that does it. In Sydney & Brisbane we never found one of those, so you have to take a cab to a BBQ store to get it refilled. You usually spend more getting to the refill store than the propane costs, unless you bring both tanks at once. They don't want you carrying LPG tanks on a bus for some reason...

 

 

[Zonker 931]

14 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

They don't want you carrying LPG tanks on a bus for some reason...

 

That is why you use a large backpack. Sheesh. Newbies.

 

[jack_sparrow 5,041]

Diesel restrictions in Indonesia/Asia on quantity and buying it in jerries (no dockfill) can be a PIA. Rules are there to (a) stop a secondary market as fuel cost is heavily govt subsidised, (b) stop smaller places running out between refueling and (c) stop extremists making diesel/phosphate bombs. 

[B.J. Porter 1,301]

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Diesel restrictions in Indonesia/Asia on quantity and buying it in jerries (no dockfill) can be a PIA. Rules are there to (a) stop a secondary market as fuel cost is heavily govt subsidised, (b) stop smaller places running out between refueling and (c) stop extremists making diesel/phosphate bombs. 

Nothing says fun like filling up 1000L of tankage 20L at a time.

[jack_sparrow 5,041]

16 hours ago, Zonker said:

In Oz where even though the tank was certified for sale, and I had the manufacturer's documents saying so, nobody would do an inspection of it. Oz is very anal about rules / safety.

Zonk yes very anal. They insist on either them being stamped by a certified Australian Gas Cylinder Test Station or they display an Australian design approval number. 

Composite tanks are rare there but those that are, are usually of European origin and carry an Australian design approval number. However if not, the process of getting someone to certify them there would be close to impossible I imagine. 

The latter sounds like your experience. Australian/NZ Standards follow the British/Euro and think Columbus is still enroute to America.

[B.J. Porter 1,301]

39 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Zonk yes very anal. They insist on either them being stamped by a certified Australian Gas Cylinder Test Station or they display an Australian design approval number. 

Composite tanks are rare there but those that are, are usually of European origin and carry an Australian design approval number. However if not, the process of getting someone to certify them there would be close to impossible I imagine. 

The latter sounds like your experience. Australian/NZ Standards follow the British/Euro and think Columbus is still enroute to America.

So far in NZ they've been honoring my NZ inspection stamp on my grotty looking aluminum tanks.

Funny story...

Once in Maine we hoofed it up to a place to get propane. Our tanks were...well, boat tanks. Some buildup around them, oxidation, etc. from being on the boat. We got chatting with the guy there who had just finished his re-cert training. He got to telling us about what he was told to look for on tanks used to cook Meth. Yup...excess buildup of oxidation and stuff, just like you'd see off a boat.

[Panoramix 598]

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

The latter sounds like your experience. Australian/NZ Standards follow the British/Euro and think Columbus is still enroute to America.

Or the USA hasn't managed to realise that they aren't alone.; -). It all depends on your perspective. 

[t3c9 0]

On 10/16/2017 at 5:45 AM, SCANAS said:

Hoppy, he's a lunatic. Memory is a bit rusty but didn't Chilean Navy order him off the boat but instead used the kids as bargaining chip & got a tow. Then begged & borrowed for new mast. Got a shorter one, spent two seasons getting threatened with deportation trying to sort it out. Not exactly how I'd want to do it. Sure he almost made it round the cape .... great. 

What do you think that boats worth? 

[eastern motors 47]

1 hour ago, t3c9 said:

What do you think that boats worth? 

Does not seem to be class legal and has a "two piece" mast.  They would be lucky to get $50k imo.

[Weyalan 57]

On 10/21/2017 at 10:01 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Zonk yes very anal. They insist on either them being stamped by a certified Australian Gas Cylinder Test Station or they display an Australian design approval number. 

Composite tanks are rare there but those that are, are usually of European origin and carry an Australian design approval number. However if not, the process of getting someone to certify them there would be close to impossible I imagine. 

The latter sounds like your experience. Australian/NZ Standards follow the British/Euro and think Columbus is still enroute to America.

Last time I tried to get a cylinder approved for use in Australia (for some kit for RAN clearance divers), the importer/supplier (Luxfer Australia) offered to get the approvals for me... provided I purchased several hundred (can't remember the exact figure, but I need 40-ish)

[LB 16 205]

http://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/2007-shipman-50-5954508/

The ad says it has been maintained "at no expense".  Must be a bit of a mess by now.... 

[Grabbler 114]

Fuckit Jeffy!...just go all in...from the mythical FP...

www.seahorsemagazine.com/current-issue/113-content/october-2017

 

[mezaire 7]

All this LPG talk, if I was buying a boat for world cruising I'd ditch the LPG and have a diesel cook top, oven and heater in one unit.

From 2.5-5 hours per liter!!

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 345]

On 2017-10-15 at 8:39 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

Santa Cruz 50.  I helped deliver one from a Vic-Maui race (owner might even be on this site?).  Very well set up for cruising (having been refit).  We were three on board, comfortably.  Two would be roomy.  The owner had raced it, crewed (i.e., Melbourne-Osaka, etc), and cruised it, very often singlehanded (as far south as Ushuaia, Argentina and throughout the tropics, and to Japan).

2:1 main halyard to make raising the main easier.  No powered winches.  We never changed a jib at sea, instead putting on the #4 at the dock before leaving Honolulu...I imagine a sail change would be challenging with two people with those big jibs.

The boat was very nicely set up for short handed, comfortable, fast cruising.  

[dacapo 481]

1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Santa Cruz 50.  I helped deliver one from a Vic-Maui race (owner might even be on this site?).  Very well set up for cruising (having been refit).  We were three on board, comfortably.  Two would be roomy.  The owner had raced it, crewed (i.e., Melbourne-Osaka, etc), and cruised it, very often singlehanded (as far south as Ushuaia, Argentina and throughout the tropics, and to Japan).

2:1 main halyard to make raising the main easier.  No powered winches.  We never changed a jib at sea, instead putting on the #4 at the dock before leaving Honolulu...I imagine a sail change would be challenging with two people with those big jibs.

The boat was very nicely set up for short handed, comfortable, fast cruising.  

or this

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Santa-Cruz-52-2931497/Mamaroneck/NY/United-States#.WfXgH9enFPY

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 345]

24 minutes ago, dacapo said:

or this

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Santa-Cruz-52-2931497/Mamaroneck/NY/United-States#.WfXgH9enFPY

I'm in.

Ill give you a $100K for it, cash, right now.  :-)

[akeeley4834 12]

Blue Jacket (American Designed and Built) makes some good cruising boats with very good performance numbers.  Not sure of the sizes they offer. 

[kent_island_sailor 1,899]

6 hours ago, mezaire said:

All this LPG talk, if I was buying a boat for world cruising I'd ditch the LPG and have a diesel cook top, oven and heater in one unit.

From 2.5-5 hours per liter!!

If your world cruise is in cool areas, a diesel stove would be great. Those things are not good in the tropics.

[yl75 511]

For me that would be either a cat, or in mono a jpk 38 or 45

[RKoch 1,003]

On October 16, 2017 at 3:54 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

I have worked on the types of boats you describe. Keeping them running well is a big job and a cheap one -  

Long, light, and simple is one thing. Think this through - a 60 foot boat with a genset and air conditioners (you'll have two or three for a boat that size) will have how many thru-hulls, how many strainers, how many pumps. etc. etc.  Some people are really good at this stuff, but if you have to call someone to come fix it, cheaper to just hire on a chief engineer to sail around with you.

I agree with this. When you're talking about multiple pumps, motors, hydraulic hoses, electronic gizmos...the maintainence goes up rapidly. Stuff starts failing a year after leaving the builders shed. What was intended as idyllic cruising becomes a full time job (which you were hoping to leave behind), hanging upside down in tiny compartments, or waiting weeks for parts to be delivered. You can hire a full time engineer. Or go to a major port and hope to find competent repair persons.

Not suggesting you revisit the stone ages like the Pardey's. There's a happy compromise point each person has to determine. But I'd err on the side of KISS, and have a manual backup for any crucial component.

[Innocent Bystander 347]

1 hour ago, akeeley4834 said:

Blue Jacket (American Designed and Built) makes some good cruising boats with very good performance numbers.  Not sure of the sizes they offer. 

Only the 40 and you can buy a never commissioned 2014 still sitting in dealer stock. Market doesn’t seem to like the boat much. 

[Shootist Jeff 1,170]

On 10/29/2017 at 8:47 PM, RKoch said:

I agree with this. When you're talking about multiple pumps, motors, hydraulic hoses, electronic gizmos...the maintainence goes up rapidly. Stuff starts failing a year after leaving the builders shed. What was intended as idyllic cruising becomes a full time job (which you were hoping to leave behind), hanging upside down in tiny compartments, or waiting weeks for parts to be delivered. You can hire a full time engineer. Or go to a major port and hope to find competent repair persons.

Not suggesting you revisit the stone ages like the Pardey's. There's a happy compromise point each person has to determine. But I'd err on the side of KISS, and have a manual backup for any crucial component.

You guys are rapidly turning me off this this idea....  

[Veeger 206]

3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You guys are rapidly turning me off this this idea....  

Yup.  There's the Dream....

 

and then the Reality!

[Raz'r 1,607]

On 10/29/2017 at 9:47 AM, RKoch said:

 You can hire a full time engineer.

If the chief engineer is too cute, it can cost you a lot more than a base salary.....

[slap 216]

On 10/29/2017 at 11:37 AM, akeeley4834 said:

Blue Jacket (American Designed and Built) makes some good cruising boats with very good performance numbers.  Not sure of the sizes they offer. 

Blue Jacket is a performance cruiser when compared with other boats built by its parent company, Island Packet.  It's pretty much a 40 foot Tartan built by IP.

[jack_sparrow 5,041]

1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You guys are rapidly turning me off this this idea....  

Call it an opportunity. 

Imagine how many people are out there today running around seduced by sailing vlogs trying to buy a boat. They are driving prices through the roof, so best not be joining them. Have a rest, take up golf, archery, poronography or something. When prices plummet as reality bites and they put all those boats back into the market, your primed ready to jump back in the dream pool. 

If you are really keen fly to New Zealand or Australia as many a circumnavigation, and marriage ends there. Boats like this are cheap as chips (chups in NZ), all just bobbing around offshore waiting to be lasooed..they must be so disalusioned they just bail out and swim to the beach.

[kent_island_sailor 1,899]

1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You guys are rapidly turning me off this this idea....  

I made a lot of $$$$ from elderly couples who sold something like say a Catalina 36, Sabre 38, or C&C 40 they knew like the back of their hands and could handle easily for Big Center Cockpit Boat with Heat AC Watermaker Windlass Bow Thruster Fridge Freezer Genset SSB Big Batteries etc and had no idea how to fix or even use the stuff plus they found out how much harder it was to dock a big high freeboard boat sitting in the center of it vs. docking a fin keel boat from sitting in the stern.

Only you know what you are can and want to do for fun. The Dashews said "90% of maintenance is access" if I recall, so keep in mind what a Rubick's Cube these boats can turn into. Simple robust systems* you can get at without needing a chiropractor beats a boat stuffed so full of wires and hoses you feel like you are reenacting Das Boot

* this doesn't always mean what you think it means. Big enough, and a nice simple AC genset and solid state chargers can beat a kluge of 4 alternators hanging off various parts of the main engine.

[billy backstay 404]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 1:38 PM, Innocent Bystander said:

Only the 40 and you can buy a never commissioned 2014 still sitting in dealer stock. Market doesn’t seem to like the boat much. 

Blue Jacket looks like  real fine boat!  That a new one is still kicking around 3 years after the build speaks ill of the economy still......

[mezaire 7]

On 30/10/2017 at 3:11 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

If your world cruise is in cool areas, a diesel stove would be great. Those things are not good in the tropics.

Really? My unstanding is that when cooking only they create no more cabin heat than LPG

[Shootist Jeff 1,170]

19 hours ago, carcrash said:

On 10/17/2017 at 2:09 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

 

Would one of these be fun for out-of-the-way diving?

I am a BIG fan of these things

They look great, but you would have to have almost glass smooth water or the motor would get swamped.

[Kirwan 262]

20 hours ago, carcrash said:

I am a BIG fan of these things

Those first gas powered hookahs appeared in the 60's ("Air Buoy"), and quickly disappeared when a few people died from inhaling exhaust fumes.  I didn't know any were still made. 

There are a few battery powered electric ones out now, but they are pretty power hungry, and the right batteries get expensive. 

[Zonker 931]

3 hours ago, mezaire said:

My unstanding is that when cooking only they create no more cabin heat than LPG

Bwah ha ha ha! Maybe the Wallace ones are better, but the drip pot (Dickinson type) are like little furnaces. And they take forever to get hot in the morning to make coffee. My parent's boat had one. They had a 2 burner propane camp stove they sat on top for summer use! Only used the diesel stove for spring/fall sailing (but it was great then in Southern BC)

Honestly, BJ aside who has tanks that are too small, it is easy to get LPG. 95% of the cruising fleet uses it.

 

Complexity: on our 40' pretty moderately equipped cat here is a listing of pumps just for fun:

12V fresh water
fresh water foot pump
salt water foot pump
shower sump pump
head pump
diesel engine salt water pump
diesel engine fresh water pump
diesel engine electric fuel priming pump
2 x electric bilge pumps 
1 x manual bilge pump
2 x watermaker feed pumps
1 x watermaker Clark pump (not really a pump, but it leaks so call it one)

Kind of sobering isn't it? Ones that died/needed repair

12V fresh water pumps x 3
shower sump pump x 2
engine salt water pump x 3 rebuilds
electric bilge pump x 2
watermaker feed pump x 2

 

[Autonomous 134]

We have a love-hate relationship with our Wallas cooker.

It is very fuel efficient and works well when it has an abundance of voltage to run it. IMO the voltage demand is too high to be practical. You have to clean it's electrical connections way more often than anything else on board.

It takes a while to heat up and the glass top does retain and throw off heat after use.

[sailorcherry 1]

Smaller than your range at 43 but there are three Serendipity 43s for sale right now. IOR/SORC gem. Excellent feedback from owners who've done rtw's.

SV Wings is still cruising and racing since the 90s (great blog too, I believe it to be the longest running actively cruising and racing blog).

Hooked had a major six figure cruising conversion done in the mid 90s (including to a SS cutter rig) that sets her apart from the rest, imo. Best sailing boat I've ever been on. Needs some cruising gear (and rig is 22 yrs old). Doublehanded (and singlehanded) friendly with a large flush deck to hold all the cruising toys you want (room for a 12' dinghy and a an 18' yak). A sweet combo of speed, comfort and beauty at $80k in NorCal.

http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/54312

[longy 207]

  If that is the correct picture of her in Kenwood Cup, that is the old "Celerity". Said to have a bent keel caused by forklift running over it at Dreyfuss' yard. Can't remember if Wendall got it fixed or not.

[sailorcherry 1]

Just now, longy said:

  If that is the correct picture of her in Kenwood Cup, that is the old "Celerity". Said to have a bent keel caused by forklift running over it at Dreyfuss' yard. Can't remember if Wendall got it fixed or not.

Hauled out in August (showing no evidence of any damage, previous h/o same thing) and all old surveys make no mention. If indeed that is true it was obviously fixed at the time.

[longy 207]

It was very subtle -- took 2 years of full on racing before it was discovered. Probably not apparent until a full set of templates is jigged up & held to keel.

[longy 207]

Surveyors are only concerned with keel bolts & keel/hull cracks. Fairness & alignment are far beyond most of them.

[sailorcherry 1]

Just now, longy said:

It was very subtle -- took 2 years of full on racing before it was discovered. Probably not apparent until a full set of templates is jigged up & held to keel.

•  
• Quote

Quote t

 

Do you care to elaborate how this was proven and how you came to such knowledge? 

This seems like quite the claim. Plus, this has never been mentioned by the past three owners or on the detailed historic site or on any other forums.

She tracks perfectly straight for minutes at a time without any helm input. 

[Ishmael 2,860]

28 minutes ago, sailorcherry said:

1 hour ago, longy said:

It was very subtle -- took 2 years of full on racing before it was discovered. Probably not apparent until a full set of templates is jigged up & held to keel.

•  
•  
• Quote

Quote t

 

Do you care to elaborate how this was proven and how you came to such knowledge? 

This seems like quite the claim. Plus, this has never been mentioned by the past three owners or on the detailed historic site or on any other forums.

She tracks perfectly straight for minutes at a time without any helm input. 

He was probably driving the forklift. Longy has history, you are a grasshopper.

[longy 207]

  Crewed for Wendal (Celerity's boat nanny) on the first retirement cruise. Knew him for years before that. Knew most of the racing crew on the boat.It was stated as a fact, don't know if it was corrected before the owner moved on to his next custom boat, an Andrews one ton, which did much better.

[longy 207]

  Never worked for Dreyfuss, but he sailed with us one day in '83 SORC. Crazy dude, ALWAYS armed, convinced the darkies were going to rise up in armed revolt. Stepping on the boat, he had a snub nosed 38, a knife in his boots, and a trucker style wallet on a chain that had a 38 cal barrel in it that fired when you snapped the chain taught.

[harryproa 35]

On 10/16/2017 at 1:39 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

 

I find it easier to define (and to eliminate) uncomfortable/irritating rather than comfortable.  My list includes:

Living on an angle, the motion of cats upwind in a seaway, not knowing what is approaching behind the headsail, launching the tender to get to the beach, rolling at sea or anchor, sailing under reduced sail at night,  reducing sail in a squall, foredeck work, flogging headsails,  tangled extras, high wind/big seas tacking and gybing, marina costs, marinas located more than an easy walk from the bright lights and shops, filthy commercial harbours and the low lifes that hang around them, not being able to motor at 10 knots when I am in a hurry and becalmed, tenders that can't take the whole crew to interesting locations at 20 knots,  maintenance, capsizing, curved settee seats, paying for 15 tonnes of boat when 4 tonnes will do the job, climbing/pulling the rig to check it, wet sails down below, sails that are not setting correctly, driving a boat when it should be hove to, setting a parachute anchor over the bow, swept back shrouds, hauling out to scrub off, fixed rudders, antifouling, hitting floating objects or the bottom, gadgets and equipment required because the boat is not set up to be easily worked, crawling into a bunk or over my wife, air con because of poor air flow, gensets, waves slapping the stern of anchored fat arsed cats, bridgedeck slamming, stairs and ladders, nowhere to sit down when there are more than 20 visitors on the boat, lee shores, flaking sails, helmsperson and anchor person yelling at each other, fixing a hole in the hull, diesel in the bilges, needing a halyard to get an MOB on board, life lines and staunchions, not being able to see the stars at night, sitting in the midday sun, getting wet when I don't want to, raised or exposed helm seats, holding tanks, marine toilets, cold showers,

Jeez, I thought that would be a short list.  Did not realise I was so picky. ;-) 

No idea what is on your list, but if you make one, it may help you choose.  Maybe start with the "can't do withouts" (mine includes all the cost, safety and performance items above) to get to a short(ish) list,  then give the others a mark out of 10 for importance and use that to fine tune the selection.    Then you "only" have to apply the how does it feel test (looks, appeal, gut feeling) to get the perfect boat

Sailing performance is about weight, sail area, leeway prevention and length.  Cruising performance adds ease of use and speed of changing gears to the mix.  ie how long and how much effort it takes to prep the boat for a sail including getting sails up, down, trimmed and reefed.    

eg A mainsail that requires crew on the cabin top to unzip the bag and move the lazy jacks, careful steering into the wind and hard work on the winch to raise it and again to sheet it on, all hands on deck to drag it down in a squall  and flaking and baggging at the end of the day will not get as much use as a smaller self vanging sail that can be hoisted, reefed, depowered and lowered on any point of sail and which automatically stows into a self closing boom bag.  

Performance is also about money.  Smaller gear costs less, simple stuff is cheaper to replace, light boats need less grunt (engines and rigs) than heavy ones.

Then there is the perception.  Whizzing along at 20 knots without any spray, heeling or other sense of speed apart from the wind in your face gets boring sooner than heeling over, surfing down waves and seeing spray off the bow at 15 knots.  You get there quicker but you mightn't enjoy the sailing experience so much.  Of course, this needs to be tempered with outrunning storms and being able to sail off a lee shore with a rope around the prop, but for most cruisers, it is about enjoying the sailing, not breaking records.  

 

[shaggybaxter 708]

On 11/5/2017 at 3:03 PM, longy said:

  Never worked for Dreyfuss, but he sailed with us one day in '83 SORC. Crazy dude, ALWAYS armed, convinced the darkies were going to rise up in armed revolt. Stepping on the boat, he had a snub nosed 38, a knife in his boots, and a trucker style wallet on a chain that had a 38 cal barrel in it that fired when you snapped the chain taught.

Ferk. And you were stuck on a boat with him? Rather you than me Longy, guys like that, me step away very slowly.

Hate to see him under stress...like in a yacht race!

  

 

[jack_sparrow 5,041]

17 hours ago, harryproa said:

My list includes:...

You forgot the joy of having something that looks like two logs lashed together by a one-armed, one-eyed drunk.

[sailorcherry 1]

On 11/5/2017 at 7:03 AM, longy said:

  Never worked for Dreyfuss, but he sailed with us one day in '83 SORC. Crazy dude, ALWAYS armed, convinced the darkies were going to rise up in armed revolt. Stepping on the boat, he had a snub nosed 38, a knife in his boots, and a trucker style wallet on a chain that had a 38 cal barrel in it that fired when you snapped the chain taught.

Longy, no never had the pleasure to know Dreyfuss, too young (just on dinghies then). He certainly sounds like a crazy and cool legend per all the stories I've ready online. Some people live wild, loud and proud - good for them. Dreyfuss - he lived on a whole other level - no wonder his S43s were the shit!

[longy 207]

On 11/5/2017 at 9:46 PM, shaggybaxter said:

Ferk. And you were stuck on a boat with him? Rather you than me Longy, guys like that, me step away very slowly.

Hate to see him under stress...like in a yacht race!

  

 

Dreyfuss was late getting to the YC one SORC race day, boat had already had to leave to get to the race course area. So he goes to the airport, charters a helo claiming he was a photographer. They get out to the start area, he demands the pilot get lower & closer, than jumps out of the chopper into the water. The unfortunate end result is the chopper pilot got his ticket pulled, the FAA thought it was the pilot's responsibility to keep all bodies within the airframe.

    It was also rumored that he had a kevlar skinned hull out behind the shop that had been condemned out of the mold for some reason that he used as a target for various full auto weapons.

But he did go thru some cool boat names after getting caught in a rating scam:  "Mea Culpa", then "Your Cheating Heart". I think it was "Louisiana Crude" that got busted?

[sledracr 158]

14 hours ago, longy said:

But he did go thru some cool boat names after getting caught in a rating scam:  "Mea Culpa", then "Your Cheating Heart". I think it was "Louisiana Crude" that got busted?

IIRC, it was Williwaw and Acadia that got caught, and Williwaw's owner (Sinnett) was banned from racing for a while.

There was a rating protest against Louisiana Crude but there was no ruling against her, so she managed to stay "clean" of the whole mess.  The dockside gossip was that Crude was basically the same boat as Williwaw, so they "must have been cheating too", but it was never proven.

Crap that was a long time ago.  Is there a recycling program for brain cells?

[longy 207]

I exercise them by remembering old crap like this.

[AlR 10]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 9:20 AM, longy said:

  If that is the correct picture of her in Kenwood Cup, that is the old "Celerity". Said to have a bent keel caused by forklift running over it at Dreyfuss' yard. Can't remember if Wendall got it fixed or not.

Must have fixed it before 1983.  That year they were 2nd in Class at Long Beach Race Week, First Overall in the Cabo Race, and 6th Overall in the transpac.

[AlR 10]

4 hours ago, sledracr said:

IIRC, it was Williwaw and Acadia that got caught, and Williwaw's owner (Sinnett) was banned from racing for a while.

There was a rating protest against Louisiana Crude but there was no ruling against her, so she managed to stay "clean" of the whole mess.  The dockside gossip was that Crude was basically the same boat as Williwaw, so they "must have been cheating too", but it was never proven.

Crap that was a long time ago.  Is there a recycling program for brain cells?

Acadia (Frers 40) was the Overall Winner of the 1981 SORC, but was found to rate more than a foot too low during the re-measurement.  They were tossed.   Burt had won Overall the previous year sailing a Serendipity 43 of the same name.

So Crude (a Serendipity 43) was declared the winner.  But someone thought her bumps were not conforming to the minimum radii requirement.  Dreyfus had sold the boat to the Swedes for their Admiral's Cup Team, so the boat could not be re-measured as commanded by the USYRU.  So they were thrown out.  Upon re-measurement in Sweden the boat rated within 0.1', so was within the acceptable range, and no irregularities were found in her bumps.  But they were not re-instated as the Overall Winner.  Dreyfus sued the USYRU and lost.

Williwaw (the 4th Peterson boat by that name for Seymore, this time a 48 footer) was also found to rate too low upon re-measurement and was thrown out.  Seymore was thown out of sailing for two years and never returned to the Grand Prix circuit.

[billy backstay 404]

17 minutes ago, AlR said:

Acadia (Frers 40) was the Overall Winner of the 1981 SORC, but was found to rate more than a foot too low during the re-measurement.  They were tossed.   Burt had won Overall the previous year sailing a Serendipity 43 of the same name.

So Crude (a Serendipity 43) was declared the winner.  But someone thought her bumps were not conforming to the minimum radii requirement.  Dreyfus had sold the boat to the Swedes for their Admiral's Cup Team, so the boat could not be re-measured as commanded by the USYRU.  So they were thrown out.  Upon re-measurement in Sweden the boat rated within 0.1', so was within the acceptable range, and no irregularities were found in her bumps.  But they were not re-instated as the Overall Winner.  Dreyfus sued the USYRU and lost.

Williwaw (the 4th Peterson boat by that name for Seymore, this time a 48 footer) was also found to rate too low upon re-measurement and was thrown out.  Seymore was thown out of sailing for two years and never returned to the Grand Prix circuit.

IIRC ..  The Peterson 48?, ex Wllawaw was tossed for lead shot in the spreader tips, to fool (cheat), the inclination test?  I crewed  on that boat, later from Newport to Bermuda, when it was called, "Flyway", and owned by a NY State Politician, Ogden.....???  

It was a nice boat!  But the owner was a no show, due to challenging weather forecast ??

Or, so we were told at the time....

[AlR 10]

16 hours ago, billy backstay said:

IIRC ..  The Peterson 48?, ex Wllawaw was tossed for lead shot in the spreader tips, to fool (cheat), the inclination test? 

No.  Upon re-measurement there was a discrepancy in the freeboards.  The boat was supposedly floating about an inch higher than she should have been.

This was attributed to the BN (Harvey) filling the bilge with water from a hose for the initial measurement.  This has been debunked to a degree.  Most likely there was an error by the measurer in what datum he used in calculating the freeboards the first time.  Regardless, the owner signed an incorrect certificate and was banned for two years.

[sledracr 158]

1 hour ago, AlR said:

 This has been debunked to a degree. 

To a degree.  I shadowed Witt Davis (SoCal measurer) on a fair number of freeboards and inclines, and he shared a bunch of "stories" other measurers - mostly east coast - had shared about things they'd run across.  Hoses "accidentally" left running overnight, weights "accidentally" stored in forward lockers and bilge compartments, tool boxes "accidentally" left way up in the bow, spin poles with the outboard tip "accidentally" 50 lbs heavier than expected, etc.  Apparently it was rife, at the time, and led to a whole new set of procedures in the early 80s that owners had to sign off on, and measurers had to confirm, asserting that the boat was appropriately configured before the in-the-water measurement process could proceed.

Fun times.

[AlR 10]

5 hours ago, sledracr said:

To a degree.  I shadowed Witt Davis (SoCal measurer) on a fair number of freeboards and inclines, and he shared a bunch of "stories" other measurers - mostly east coast - had shared about things they'd run across.  Hoses "accidentally" left running overnight, weights "accidentally" stored in forward lockers and bilge compartments, tool boxes "accidentally" left way up in the bow, spin poles with the outboard tip "accidentally" 50 lbs heavier than expected, etc.  Apparently it was rife, at the time, and led to a whole new set of procedures in the early 80s that owners had to sign off on, and measurers had to confirm, asserting that the boat was appropriately configured before the in-the-water measurement process could proceed.

Fun times.

Whit, not Witt.

Any boat actually measured with excess water from "accidental" hoses left running would need the measurer to be complicit in the cheating. 

If weights were in lockers and bilge compartments, and were properly fixed, they would be noted on the certificate.  No cheating there, unless the measurer was complicit and didn't note the location of the ballast, which could then be removed later.  Why would anyone try something like that when they knew the measurer would be making a visual inspection?

A 50 lb pole tip would require about 125 cubic inches of lead added.  Think about it.

Gary Mull once wrote about walking the docks before a major regatta and seeing piles of lead ingots on the dock in front of a couple of boats.  This was when Gary was head of the ITC.  This sort of thing was illegal and was done.

But some famous re-measurement problems (like Victory) showed it wasn't the owner or BN cheating, it was incompetence of the measurers.

[sledracr 158]

2 hours ago, AlR said:

A 50 lb pole tip would require about 125 cubic inches of lead added.  Think about it.

You make it sound like that would be hard to do.  It would be ridiculously simple to shove two bags of lead shot into the end of a 18-foot-long tube. 

A slug of solid lead would only have to be about 8" long (assuming 4-1/2" ID).

And 50 lbs at the end of the spin pole would make a significant difference in the inclines and resulting RM calcs.

In theory.  I have no practical experience in the business of cheating.  Just relating fuzzy recollections of stories Whit (not Witt) told me a million years ago.

[AlR 10]

13 hours ago, sledracr said:

You make it sound like that would be hard to do.  It would be ridiculously simple to shove two bags of lead shot into the end of a 18-foot-long tube. 

A slug of solid lead would only have to be about 8" long (assuming 4-1/2" ID).

And 50 lbs at the end of the spin pole would make a significant difference in the inclines and resulting RM calcs.

In theory.  I have no practical experience in the business of cheating.  Just relating fuzzy recollections of stories Whit (not Witt) told me a million years ago.

That's quite an assumption.  Some might question using a 4.5" ID pole on an 18' JC.  But who are we to argue with a world famous professional IOR rigger like yourself?

I suppose if someone tried to put lead in a pole they might think the measurer wouldn't notice?  What about when the measurer used the pole (lashed at BMAX) to do the inclination (per Section 701.2 of the Rule)?  Of course 701.2 also said if the pole is not being used for the inclination it is not to be onboard.  So just how would a pole that isn't aboard "make a significant difference in the inclines and resulting RM calcs"?

There are too many of these nonsense stories being re-told regarding the IOR days.  IOR had enough problems without people adding fantasy to the equation.

 

[kinardly 73]

FWIW, I knew Whit casually back in the day and he didn't seem like the kind of guy who would make stuff like that up. 

[AlR 10]

1 hour ago, kinardly said:

FWIW, I knew Whit casually back in the day and he didn't seem like the kind of guy who would make stuff like that up. 

Who is saying Whit made stuff up?

[estarzinger 58]

On 10/15/2017 at 11:39 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I have a bit of a difficult design requirement and am struggling on where to go.  SWMBO and I have been discussing selling out, leaving the rat race and buying a boat to cruise around the world for several years similar to @B.J. Porter  However we are both avid racers and are struggling with giving up performance for a 6KSB that can't point and go upwind and is a big heavy tub.  At the same time we get that there is a trade-off for comfort and space if we plan to live on the boat long term.  

Is there such a thing as having the best of both worlds?  If we had to choose, we would likely relent and choose comfort and stability over performance.  But is there anything that would get a 60/40 mix?  Or even a 70/30 mix of comfort / performance?  Ideally we would like something that we could fly an Asym kite downwind for some fun.

Probably looking at a 50-55 ft range.  Maybe 60 ft max.  Something that could be double handed fairly easily.  

Any thoughts?

Regarding boat size . . . . as mentioned above I personally feel there is a bad zone between mid 50s to about 70 - too big for most cruising couples and too small for decent pro help.   Now, ofc there are exceptional people who do make boats in that range work.  Both Steve Dashew and Jim Corenman (mentioned above) are exceptional seamen (we know and have sailed with both) . . . . however neither of them actually had personal boats in my bad zone.  Steve's were 80' and more like small ships with proper engine rooms, and Jim's absolutely superb Heart of Gold was 50'.   Regarding Dashew, I might also note that Linda told Beth that the (last one) power boat was the first of their 'big' vessels which did not scare her.  So, this is obviously owner dependent . . . .  but I would caution anyone thinking about the say 53' to 70' range to think three times really hard.

Second about boat size . . . . . damn they get expensive as they get bigger.  If you are at all budget concerned look into that seriously and with cold eyes.  It should sort of go up with the cube of length but given the 'big boat premium' probably increases even more rapidly. And 'light' big boats can be even more expensive that heavy ones to properly keep going.  If you have bottomless pockets, all well and good, but if the pockets have bottoms then again think three times really hard.

Recreational boats (and their equipment) really really suck in terms of QA. Alot of new buyers think they will be able to buy something and it will be reliable like say their car . . . . but it is nothing like that at all.  The environment is really harsh, and the QA is much worse than any other I have ever run across (much worse than say scuba or bikes).  So no matter how hard you try to get stuff right, there is shit breaking all the time (if you really use the boat).  There are also a lot of people in the industry who think 'marine' is a license to charge exorbitant prices - which as I told several contractors I could stomach if the quality was proportionally high but almost inevitably it is not.  Most blue water owners soon find they are better doing most of their own work because they know more and take more care than the 'pros'. Boat ownership is honestly very frustrating for someone like me who wants stuff right and working. 

Personally, in a very general sense, I think low 40's makes sense for a couple doing 'normal' blue water work and high 40's for more hard core (high latitudes and really long distances) work.  40' does in fact give you plenty of room and is more than capable of crossing oceans and a lot of freedom (slips and draft and costs).

As to draft . . . . deeper helps (righting moment and leeway) and in our second boat we personally wanted the deepest we could felt would not limit us too much . . . and we decided that was 7'.   We ofc know people with deeper (9' and in a few cases 12') but they do face more constraints (in haul out options and remote harbors and passes and bars).

As to 'racy' and 'cruising' . . . . that is all a matter of personal preference, with a full range/spectrum of compromises . . . . . my only caution here is beware of those who say you can 'have it all' (AC & big genset and 'racy' is a very very difficult mix for instance - it can in fact be done but only in ways that introduce other compromises).  You have to adapt your lifestyle to being a seaman no matter what you do.  Our 2nd boat was much more performance oriented, because I found one of my joys in cruising was sailing on and off the hook, into and out of small tight harbors - I really enjoyed that skill and challenge - but few other cruisers do or care about that.  Hawk was decently fast on passage, however fast passage times honestly did not really matter to me - you were out there and it did not really matter much if it took an extra 12 hours or not . . . and fast passages probably have generally more to do with lwl and the skipper/crew than the boat (other than lwl). Beth's offshore watches were usually faster than mine, while mine were faster coastal sailing - had to do with how we managed fatigue.

As to buying a 'turn key' boat . . . . it is rare - almost no matter how complete the boat is you usually have to do significant work to upgrade and get the boat how you want it.  But I will note that the guy who bought Hawk bought her in the fall and left the next spring to (successfully) go thru the northwest passage without doing much to the boat.  But I sold her in full 'ready to go to Greenland' status with everything on board I had used that summer up in greenland & he was a professional commercial ship engineer who (I believe) shared many/much of our fit out philosophy.

As a final note - blue water cruising almost always turns out to be not at all what people expected.  The magazines and vblogs mostly completely mislead what it is like. And it is nothing like say a 10 day charter in the BVI either. It is very very hard to know if you will like it or not without actually giving it a go.  You might hate it, or you might like it for reasons entirely different than you image now.  So, just realize it is pretty much a crap shoot.