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Greyhound37

Benefit to a loose rig??? Mills 43

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I came across this article about the Mills 43 Cool Breeze. See below. Can someone explain to me how tuning the rig so its flopping around like a noodle benefits boat speed and pointing ability?

Cool Breeze is heavy boat, but this time we went more aggressive with the rig tune. We made it really loose and sloppy so we could compete with the lighter boats like the J/111s and J/122s that in the past have always hurt us.

We took a lot of tension off the diagonals and the cap shrouds. The rig was just flopping around like a noodle. It was really sagging off to leeward, which really powered up the main and gave us all the power we needed to get the bow pointed high against the 111s, specifically. Really sloppy on the rig tune is unnerving on big boats—to have the rig slamming around in the chop—but it was fast.

Even with a couple of embarrassing starts we were able to find a lane, get clear air, and just leg out a little bit. We were kind of slow downwind, but upwind we kept finding the right lanes.

 

 

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more Curve at *'leaiding' edge of mainsail.. more forestay curve... more power in the sail...

See the rigtune for a Melges 24 if you need comparison...

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Keel can't start lifting you up until you get forward momentum on it. Speed = point, especially on boats with skinny chord lengths. Deeper main and jib get you the speed, point comes later. Plus, acceleration and the ability to have boatspeed gets you out in front of tactical situations and allows you to sail your own race sooner. 

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1 hour ago, A-NU-START said:

Keel can't start lifting you up until you get forward momentum on it. Speed = point, especially on boats with skinny chord lengths. Deeper main and jib get you the speed, point comes later. Plus, acceleration and the ability to have boatspeed gets you out in front of tactical situations and allows you to sail your own race sooner. 

i suppose you could get new sails and avoid the floppy rig, but if that's what you have that day...

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where'd you come across that article? At any rate, floppy is a relative term... Cap shrouds are almost never floppy on any boat i've sailed on, but the D1/D2's may not have any static tension on them and may show inches of slack in light air if the rig loads up. The forstay may feel lose compared to how it feels in the 10kt band, but still tighter than, say, a j109 forstay is under almost any circumstance. its all relative. 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

i suppose you could get new sails and avoid the floppy rig, but if that's what you have that day...

Have a different main for every wind speed yet only be allowed to pick one for the whole day? Or change the shape of the one you have?

 

there is nothing inherently incorrect with having a loose or tight rig. People do it unintentionally all the time. 

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Cant talk now I am backing off my turnbuckles.

So I get the deeper sail/power up from the floppy rig but at wind speed over 11 knots or so I would guess more tension and lots of backstay? 

 

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On my (much smaller) boat, my rule of thumb is that I want to get rid of the mast sag once there is enough breeze that everybody is hiking. As the wind builds before that point, I will add backstay to keep forestay sag at a reasonable point. In all but the lightest of stuff, I want the rig to be set up in such a way that I can play the backstay in the puffs and lulls.

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1 hour ago, Greyhound37 said:

Cant talk now I am backing off my turnbuckles.

So I get the deeper sail/power up from the floppy rig but at wind speed over 11 knots or so I would guess more tension and lots of backstay? 

 

go by the tuning guide, go out with your sailmaker, etc. but, ultimately: you set the mast for the wind speed. 0-5, 5-10, 10-18, 18+, or whatever your guide/boat calls for. A swept spreader rig, like the 88, will often behave very negatively to a lose rig with lots of backstay. A swept spreader rig with lose diagonals will tend to overbend easily with lots of (in other words too much, whatever amount that may be) backstay - leading to an even loser forstay and a crappy looking main. 

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10 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

the 88, will often behave very negatively to a lose rig with lots of backstay. A swept spreader rig with lose diagonals will tend to overbend easily with lots of (in other words too much, whatever amount that may be) backstay - leading to an even loser forstay and a crappy looking main

Just returned the rig to the Quantum tuning guide :-)

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There's no one rig tune setting in the world that will be good in 0 and 11. Don't bother trying. If you have a tuning guide for an established OD then use it.


That said, if you're a handicap boat like Cool Breeze and you're trying to mess with tuning modes to address wind-speeds where you're not competitive - why not? 

Does anyone know if Cool Breeze uses a mast jack with shims?

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I used to sail mh 34'er that had fwd and aft lowers and very very loose caps. Loose enough to have to tie them together in the marina. The mast would fall off to leeward and open up the slot allowing the 150% genoa to work without backwinding the main. Looked heinous but worked. The tune changed with the age of the main. 

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On 10/17/2017 at 3:04 PM, A-NU-START said:

There's no one rig tune setting in the world that will be good in 0 and 11. Don't bother trying. If you have a tuning guide for an established OD then use it.


That said, if you're a handicap boat like Cool Breeze and you're trying to mess with tuning modes to address wind-speeds where you're not competitive - why not? 

Does anyone know if Cool Breeze uses a mast jack with shims?

it does. 

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