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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
rgeek

The LV (not the AC) WS

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So the announcement would be made before the choice of the AC new boat to steal the show ?

Well, their best chance for success would be that they choose a conventional foil assist mono.

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22 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So the announcement would be made before the choice of the AC new boat to steal the show ?

Since teams who want to enter AC36 have until Dec '18 to do so, it makes little difference when any LVWS announcement happens. 

The Framework Agreement was mostly about providing continuity. It was intended to have a steady stream of WS events starting as soon as 4th quarter '17 and so for teams who like that then perhaps it simply makes good sense to decide this sooner rather than later.

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8 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Since teams who want to enter AC36 have until Dec '18 to do so, it makes little difference when any LVWS announcement happens. 

The Framework Agreement was mostly about providing continuity. It was intended to have a steady stream of WS events starting as soon as 4th quarter '17 and so for teams who like that then perhaps it simply makes good sense to decide this sooner rather than later.

As a spectator I will watch the most spectacular boat

Sponsors will choose the best bang for the buck event

Sailors mercernaries at the easiest to participate

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12 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

TC, hypothetically if Land Rover BAR challenges for AC 36 and wins I think we're going back to Multis, don't you think?

The Gang of 5 were OTUSA, Artemis, SBTJ, GTF and BAR. It looks like one of the 5 will challenge for AC 36...and the other 4 will wait on that outcome.

Dalts & ETNZ better defend their beloved Cup otherwise their monos will go up in smoke rather fast.

Idle speculation. If LRBAR win AC36, there's practically zero chance they'll abandon the class they just won in and go back to cats. They were fucking useless in cats the last time so surely your opinion defies logic, A4E.

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From comments by RG in a recent article at http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Americas-Cup---AC50s-to-make-a-return-to-Bermuda/157817

With close to 20 boats of the AC50 or its smaller sister the AC45S in storage it seems hard to believe that with the shift to monohulls in the America's Cup that some regatta circuit would not be established using the boats which caught the imagination of the younger sailing fans at least.

In addition a smaller fleet of AC45F - one designs used for the America's Cup World Series is still in storage - waiting for a circuit. An annual regatta using that class was mooted for San Francisco, without further announcement.

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Just now, Alinghi4ever said:

Wrong....Benny loved the cats.

More like he was a dog lover. Which is fine by me.

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36 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

As a spectator I will watch the most spectacular boat

Sponsors will choose the best bang for the buck event

Sailors mercernaries at the easiest to participate

As an AC fan I will watch the more significant event. And the LE50 sideshow as an addon.

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Sheesh ... evidently, the Bertelli DoG fantasy has run its course, now this: it's not silly, it's idiotic season. Wake me up on Nov 15

[the LE-sponsored "LVWS" already happened - it was called AC35, and was a smashing hit with the general public]

 

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So which LV trophy do they want to use?

Louis Vuitton Cup 1983-2007

Louis Vuitton Challenger Cup 2017

Louis Vuitton Pacific Series Cup 2009

And how are they going steal it from the RNZYS?

Alt_BoatShowDay 2 024.jpg

Americas-Cup-Louis-Vuitton-Challenger-Playoffs-Trophy-1.jpg

lvps-trophy-cc-7991-1.jpg

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A Torture-Tran of http://segelreporter.com/regatta/americas-cup-meldet-sich-larry-ellison-zurueck-neue-plaene-mit-den-alten-foiler-kats/

Little things is not the thing of Larry Ellison. It had become suspiciously quiet around the software billionaire after the delicate clapping in Bermuda. Since he had created the best sailing regatta of all time with his buddy Coutts and convinced even the opponents of the correctness of his vision, and then the only critic withdrawn the can of his reach. He had, by the withdrawal of the Vorregatten, supposedly so cleverly and decisively weakened the New Zealanders that they should no longer be a danger. Are you kidding me? Are you serious when you say that! They formed an alliance with the other enemy (Luna Rossa), who had knocked him out of the field early on by the change in boat size, defeated him against all the early predictions and now turn the bike back with pleasure. Italians are looking for revenge The return to the Monohull is a little bit like the actions of a trump, which is more out of principle to reverse the Obama achievements, but compared to the US president, the kiwis with the revenge-seeking Italians can make their game clearer and clear exercise. But Ellison would not be himself, if he would just go back quietly. That is why the message from the Australian journalist Rob Mundle sounds not unlikely that the software mogul plans a counter-event. Mundle has been well connected to the Oracle team since he just released the biography of skipper Jimmy Spithill. Now, on his website, he published a report that states that Ellison is about to announce a so-called "World Series of Sailing", which uses the flying AC50 catamarans. "Obscene" regatta? Louis Vuitton is supposed to sponsor the series, which is difficult to believe, as the long-standing representative Bruno Troublé was the sharpest critic of the Kat circus, and he described the regatta as "obscene". However, he did not seem to have any great influence on the French market. Finally, she was also expelled from Prada's Kiwi Cup. In addition to the Oracle team, Softbank (JPN), Team France and Artemis would be logical participants. They all have problems or little interest in participating in the 36th Cup. Mundle even mentions Ernesto Bertarelli as a possible participant, who is also not exactly as an Ellison friend. Whether the message can be much more than a rumor is still not clear. But they might have a meaning as there is nothing comparable to the flight catamarans, and the product works well for viewers. Ellison must be interested in protecting his investment. And with onedesign flyers, several teams would be able to participate in the event. There have been many efforts to install counter-events for the Cup. It has never worked. But if an Ellison makes serious and brings in his financial power - unlike any of his hard-hitting Japanese Sofbank-mates - this could be the decisive difference.

 

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Let me see if I've got this straight:

1: Ellison and Torvquist between them blew over $300+ mil on AC35 and failed miserably to win THE prize, the America's Cup. Now we're asked to believe that Ellison is willing to spend a few million$ more in a "series of regattas" in former AC cats (except they won't have the AC prefixes), racing the same fellow losers they played with in BDA for 2 years, for yet another Louis Vuitton trophy, and what else..? bragging rights?? 

2: From all accounts, the broadcasting arrangements for AC35 were somewhat underwhelming in generating and maintaining interest outside of...NZ and Bermuda? And now they're selling the same "broadcasting model" to the same advertisers/sponsors who at least in AC35 had the Auld Mug as the drawcard - why would any advertiser/sponsor see a petulant cat series with nothing to play for as a worthwhile spend?

I call bullshit on this claim. These guys didn't become billionaires by recklessly spending money just because they can...

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2 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

LE is taking his bat and ball to another field to play his own game by his rules, nothing more.

There's the ESS already - and much more popular.

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4 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

LE is taking his bat and ball to another field to play his own game by his rules, nothing more.

And it may prove to be the better game. Could be blast comparing the LVWS racing to the PCWS racing.

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If Larry, Ernesto, Torvquist, perhaps Ben, and a few others, join their forces with a 62 foiling cat, even an improved 50, while the AC is sailed on a classic slow mono, the comparison is a no brainer.

At least it will be an incentive for a good AC boat !

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31 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If Larry, Ernesto, Torvquist, perhaps Ben, and a few others, join their forces with a 62 foiling cat, even an improved 50, while the AC is sailed on a classic slow mono, the comparison is a no brainer.

At least it will be an incentive for a good AC boat !

Agreed, the prospect of competing with bad-ass-fast winged foilers may sway some AC75 thoughts more towards the extreme of what could be done in a mono, for example at the Nov 15 Challs input-gathering meeting ahead of the Nov 30 final decision/reveal.

GD made an interesting comment on about if they did choose a foiler when he said it would be bad if they could foil down but not up, because a 3 boat lead approaching the top mark would turn into a 20 boat lead as soon as the first boat rounded it. He said it was very important to not get 'half pregnant' and he complimented the AC50 foilers for being able to avoid that. 

So to me, the AC75's either will be up & down foilers that can compare to Next Gen AC50's, or they will be far slower and instead 'JAR' boats.

 

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

So to me, the AC75's either will be up & down foilers that can compare to Next Gen AC50's, or they will be far slower and instead 'JAR' boats.

 

I agree. In fact, despite what fans may write, it is good news for DG to negotiate the new concept with P$B.

 

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7 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I agree. In fact, despite what fans may write, it is good news for DG to negotiate the new concept with P$B.

Yes. If what gets presented is a choice between two concepts, and the possibility of competing for eyeballs helps sway the decision towards the top-end of those concepts, a try to be 'as fast or faster than AC50s' then that could be cool - very cool.

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The number of teams entering this will be small as one of the biggest problems with running the AC50s was the cost.  As Andy Claughton noted, they are complex (he'd prob argue too complex) boats that weren't really all that practical.  Teams could justify the cost and hassle of running a 50 (or multiple) because of the lure at the end of the rainbow. Take the prize away and add in the fact that sponsors and the TV audience weren't really interested when the AC was on the line, and this feels DOA.  It's hard to see any new teams signing up outside of the London Five and even then I'm not sure France or Japan are locks to return and I think Ainslie wants to win the cup so running two unrelated campaigns might be a distraction that neither he nor his sponsors want given the weak ROI.

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25 minutes ago, ezyb said:

one of the biggest problems with running the AC50s was the cost. 

That will be the least of LE's concerns. He can do and does do anything he wants to do in sailing and other endeavors - it's been that way since forever already.

But if you do think about it from purely a cost standpoint then even BAR may do a head-turn since they already have an AC50 program plus a lot else around it and - think about it - which series might provide Land Rover the best overall exposure?

In the AC36 Protocol it says the PCWS will 'possibly' have 2 events in late '19, then 3 plus the 'Christmas Cup' in '20 in NZ in a bad time zone, and only after those anything actually Cup points related - in '21 which is even farther distant. And on top of that, any PCWS events still run entry fees of $335K each time, plus (and here's one of many financial zingers in the Prot) any cost overruns, at any PCWS events, have to be borne by Challengers; P$B can spend at will, charging them for it, at every one of them. The cost equation may not be as obvious as at first blush, or the timing, or the frequency, or the locations, or the amount of LiveLine coverage. LE has taken on a great deal of that over the past two cycles and so can presumably continue to - even redouble the effort if he so fancies. 

 

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10 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That will be the least of LE's concerns. He can do and does do anything he wants to do in sailing and other endeavors - it's been that way since forever already.

But if you do think about it from purely a cost standpoint then even BAR may do a head-turn since they already have an AC50 program plus a lot else around it and - think about it - which series might provide Land Rover the best overall exposure?

In the AC36 Protocol it says the PCWS will 'possibly' have 2 events in late '19, then 3 plus the 'Christmas Cup' in '20 in NZ, and only after those anything actually Cup points related - in '21. And on top of that, any PCWS events still run entry fees of $335K, plus (and here's one of many financial zingers in the Prot) any cost overruns, at any PCWS events, have to be borne by Challengers; P$B can spend at will, charging them for it, at every one of them. The cost equation may not be as obvious as at first blush, or the timing, or the frequency, or the locations, or the amount of LiveLine coverage.

 

You're dreaming Stinger, completely off the reservation.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about this new thing. The AC is the main event and everything else that Lazza might dream up is irrelevant.

Why do you think ETNZ bent over and touched it toes for the '07, 12 and '17 events?

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14 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Nobody gives a flying fuck about this new thing.

If LE and friends do then that's who most care about still moving ahead with the progression of extreme foiling multihulls. Will anyone care enough to watch it? Probably so but who else besides the $B's really matters? Nobody watches the J's either, it's also a passion thing by the owners.

GD may have misjudged what it was going to mean when he trashed most everything that was already in motion and changed the game this much. Or, both the LVPS and AC36 will still be fine independently - just a lot different.

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13 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That will be the least of LE's concerns. He can do and does do anything he wants to do in sailing and other endeavors - it's been that way since forever already.

But if you do think about it from purely a cost standpoint then even BAR may do a head-turn since they already have an AC50 program plus a lot else around it and - think about it - which series might provide Land Rover the best overall exposure?

That's true, but to be successful it requires more than just LE signing up and I just don't see that happening without the lure of the Cup.

In terms of Land Rover, I can guarantee you that the money men within the company will always opt for the AC over a second tier regatta as it will provide certain exposure in major publications whereas the WSL will just be another ESS-type series which no one in the mainstream media cares about. Everyone here will watch it because that's what we do, but from a marketing/sales perspective like I said earlier it's DOA.

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And then there's the inconvenient stigma of trusting a convicted cheater to run an honest and fair series of regattas without gaming the rules in their favour. What sponsor in their right mind needs that association??

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12 minutes ago, ezyb said:

That's true, but to be successful it requires more than just LE signing up and I just don't see that happening without the lure of the Cup.

In terms of Land Rover, I can guarantee you that the money men within the company will always opt for the AC over a second tier regatta as it will provide certain exposure in major publications whereas the WSL will just be another ESS-type series which no one in the mainstream media cares about. Everyone here will watch it because that's what we do, but from a marketing/sales perspective like I said earlier it's DOA.

Lots of people sink money into non-AC programs and enjoy them.

Re: LR - Yes the Cup has enormous cache. But guess what? It's concentrated mostly in just NZ. How does that help LR when Cook's wharf is full of crappy/used cars imported from Japan that already passed their Japanese used-by dates pollution-wise?

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These guys are losers   - shouldn't they get off the stage!             (thanks Dennis for the quote)

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25 minutes ago, ezyb said:

That's true, but to be successful it requires more than just LE signing up and I just don't see that happening without the lure of the Cup.

In terms of Land Rover, I can guarantee you that the money men within the company will always opt for the AC over a second tier regatta as it will provide certain exposure in major publications whereas the WSL will just be another ESS-type series which no one in the mainstream media cares about. Everyone here will watch it because that's what we do, but from a marketing/sales perspective like I said earlier it's DOA.

I think you need to look at.the ACWS to see how successful this thing could be. Nobody much gave a shit about it. In fact a large percentage of people probably didn't even know it was on.

If the ACWS was largely ignored despite being linked to the AC, imagine how many fucks (zero) the general populous will give about this thing if it happens. And THAT is what drives sponsorship dollars. 

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17 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Lots of people sink money into non-AC programs and enjoy them.

Re: LR - Yes the Cup has enormous cache. But guess what? It's concentrated mostly in just NZ. How does that help LR when Cook's wharf is full of crappy/used cars imported from Japan that already passed their Japanese used-by dates pollution-wise?

Well, let's put a pin in this thing Stinger because I have zero doubt you have got this wrong. Dead wrong.

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5 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

TC, hypothetically if Land Rover BAR challenges for AC 36 and wins I think we're going back to Multis, don't you think?

The Gang of 5 were OTUSA, Artemis, SBTJ, GTF and BAR. It looks like one of the 5 will challenge for AC 36...and the other 4 will wait on that outcome.

Dalts & ETNZ better defend their beloved Cup otherwise their monos will go up in smoke rather fast.

 If they chose a classic mono, monos will go up in smoke unless P$B, and him only, wins.

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22 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Well, let's put a pin in this thing Stinger because I have zero doubt you have got this wrong. Dead wrong.

Yep, could be. But all those $Billions matter. They could park a few super yachts off Porto Cervo with nobody else around and still indulge in watching their teams compete in the fastest in-shore course racers in history.

LE said what he liked about the Framework Agreement in a short video, it was by far the most we ever heard him say about AC35. There's little reason to think he has changed his mind about it.

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

2: From all accounts, the broadcasting arrangements for AC35 were somewhat underwhelming in generating and maintaining interest outside of...NZ and Bermuda? And now they're selling the same "broadcasting model" to the same advertisers/sponsors who at least in AC35 had the Auld Mug as the drawcard - why would any advertiser/sponsor see a petulant cat series with nothing to play for as a worthwhile spend?

Who owns the IP for all the whizzo broadcast stuff from AC34/35?

Was that part of the AC assets transferred to RNZYC/ETNZ when they won, or does some entity controlled by LE own that stuff?

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They lost me with this sort of shit when they called it the "World Series of Sailing". Call anything a 'world series' and you know it's a fabricated crock of shit that doesn't involve the world at all.

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6 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Who owns the IP for all the whizzo broadcast stuff from AC34/35?

Was that part of the AC assets transferred to RNZYC/ETNZ when they won, or does some entity controlled by LE own that stuff?

It may still be subject to whatever broadcast license agreements were done.

GD said that through the ACPI the 'americascup.com' gets transferred but he didn't know the rest and that Russell Green was going to look into it soon and that if they do get all the vids they'd be published freely accessible since Why Not. He also said the ACEA crew were employed until only the day of the final race but some lawyer guy in Bermuda was left as a follow-on contact, for a time. 

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1 minute ago, Nutta said:

Who owns the IP for all the whizzo broadcast stuff from AC34/35?

Was that part of the AC assets transferred to RNZYC/ETNZ when they won, or does some entity controlled by LE own that stuff?

Dalts intimated that the Stan Honey developments used in the TV broadcasts were owned by Ellison (don't know whether directly or via Oracle). In the same comment, Dalts mentioned alternatives such as Swiss Timing, part of the OMEGA stable so we won't miss out on quality..

 

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Well, let's just sit back and see how this all develops. Unless they come-up with something better than what the course and tactics were in AC35 I don't expect more attention than what we saw in June.

The foiling is neat, the speed is neat, but it is just slot cars running around the groove with no lane changes. Hell, even my 67, 69, 70, 73 Chevelle/Malibu (take your choice) can change lanes, sometimes when I did not necessarily want it to...

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26 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Hell, even my 67, 69, 70, 73 Chevelle/Malibu (take your choice) can change lanes, sometimes when I did not necessarily want it to...

Wait a daggumm minute.. wasn't the 70 model a big improvement over the 67?

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yep, could be. But all those $Billions matter. They could park a few super yachts off Porto Cervo with nobody else around and still indulge in watching their teams compete in the fastest in-shore course racers in history.

LE said what he liked about the Framework Agreement in a short video, it was by far the most we ever heard him say about AC35. There's little reason to think he has changed his mind about it.

Nothing to lose apart from the fact he'll look like a sore AC loser - and everyone will know it's a fact. 

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Some of you guys need to remove your heads from your arses and stop sniffing your own fumes. For many, the AC50's are the coolest racing sailboats we have ever seen. A fleet of them racing would be special. This is not about being a sore loser. Lots of people are asking what is going to become of these great boats. Imagine that somebody other than Ellison came along and said they wanted to create a series for these boats because they are so cool and because that is what interests them, they wouldn't get the same abuse as Ellsion is getting for (maybe) doing the same thing. It's not the AC. It doesn't cut across the AC. It isn't intended to replace the AC. It's simply a way of getting the coolest boats racing again and this time hopefully in a fleet situation.

The other thought that springs to mind is that all the animosity suggests that some see it as either a threat to AC36 or that it might shade it. If that is the case, it suggests they are getting it wrong with AC36 and if it isn't, then why worry about it and heap abuse on it?

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54 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Some of you guys need to remove your heads from your arses and stop sniffing your own fumes. For many, the AC50's are the coolest racing sailboats we have ever seen. A fleet of them racing would be special. This is not about being a sore loser. Lots of people are asking what is going to become of these great boats. Imagine that somebody other than Ellison came along and said they wanted to create a series for these boats because they are so cool and because that is what interests them, they wouldn't get the same abuse as Ellsion is getting for (maybe) doing the same thing. It's not the AC. It doesn't cut across the AC. It isn't intended to replace the AC. It's simply a way of getting the coolest boats racing again and this time hopefully in a fleet situation.

The other thought that springs to mind is that all the animosity suggests that some see it as either a threat to AC36 or that it might shade it. If that is the case, it suggests they are getting it wrong with AC36 and if it isn't, then why worry about it and heap abuse on it?

I think LE wants to get even. But not in a fair AC fight, because he tends to lose those. 

So, good luck to him. I hope he has fun playing in his new sand box. But the big kids will be engaged elsewhere. 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Nothing to lose apart from the fact he'll look like a sore AC loser - and everyone will know it's a fact. 

This "rumour" sounds suspiciously like Rob Mundle falling for Spithill's propensity for baiting Kiwi media...

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

I think LE wants to get even. But not in a fair AC fight, because he tends to lose those. 

I have to accept that is your view, and I also believe that he is vindictive, but in this case, I really do believe there are enough people excited about racing the AC50's that this is not the case. It's more of a case that they have something super cool they simply want to keep going and why not. FFS! If I had the money I would want to do it

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8 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Well, let's just sit back and see how this all develops. Unless they come-up with something better than what the course and tactics were in AC35 I don't expect more attention than what we saw in June.

The foiling is neat, the speed is neat, but it is just slot cars running around the groove with no lane changes. Hell, even my 67, 69, 70, 73 Chevelle/Malibu (take your choice) can change lanes, sometimes when I did not necessarily want it to...

Agreed, I don't doubt LE (and others) want to make this a thing, and will even try to throw money at it to do so. But they struggled to make it a big enough media spectacle for sponsors when they had the prestige of the AC attached to it. How an earth do they think they will make it bigger and better (hell even the same!) when its just yet another regatta (arguably there already are too many diluting coverage of sailing).

And again, if you even needed more proof that for some of these syndicates this wasn't about winning the cup, witness who elects to join this little circus vs chasing the actual fucking cup. It will be in black and white.

Even if they do get it off the ground, it will become a second-rate private regatta much like a maritime Ferrari Challenge /  Corse Clientio where the only people interested in it are those competing. No TV, no media, no big sponsors, no gate takings = no money here so it will ultimately (and probably quickly) die.

Best thing about it existing would be for A4E to set up her own little forum somewhere so that she can argue with the voices in her head that tell her that Land Rover would put as much money into this little side show as opposed to sponsoring a proper sporting event.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

Some of you guys need to remove your heads from your arses and stop sniffing your own fumes. For many, the AC50's are the coolest racing sailboats we have ever seen. A fleet of them racing would be special. This is not about being a sore loser. Lots of people are asking what is going to become of these great boats. Imagine that somebody other than Ellison came along and said they wanted to create a series for these boats because they are so cool and because that is what interests them, they wouldn't get the same abuse as Ellsion is getting for (maybe) doing the same thing. It's not the AC. It doesn't cut across the AC. It isn't intended to replace the AC. It's simply a way of getting the coolest boats racing again and this time hopefully in a fleet situation.

The other thought that springs to mind is that all the animosity suggests that some see it as either a threat to AC36 or that it might shade it. If that is the case, it suggests they are getting it wrong with AC36 and if it isn't, then why worry about it and heap abuse on it?

What's wrong with ESS? Lack of wing?

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Just now, rh2600 said:

 

What's wrong with ESS? Lack of wing?

The boats are, IMO, pretty tame compared with the AC50's. Upwind foiling, 100% airtime. 40+knots downwind. It's Formula 1 vs F3 or whatever other metaphor you want. I can helm a GS32 but I know I cannot helm an AC50.

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Screw using the actual AC50 class rules though, better to make a wide open 50 foot class that the existing AC50s complied with, then you would have something interesting!

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11 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Screw using the actual AC50 class rules though, better to make a wide open 50 foot class that the existing AC50s complied with, then you would have something interesting!

+ 1

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42 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I have to accept that is your view, and I also believe that he is vindictive, but in this case, I really do believe there are enough people excited about racing the AC50's that this is not the case. It's more of a case that they have something super cool they simply want to keep going and why not. FFS! If I had the money I would want to do it

They might race the existing  boats but they will build no more because this series simply has zero prestige associated with it and THAT is why it is irrelevant. 

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

They might race the existing  boats but they will build no more because this series simply has zero prestige associated with it and THAT is why it is irrelevant. 

Why would it have any less prestige than any other non AC series. Are you saying the Extrme series has zero prestige, or the TP52 series has zero prestige or that no new series will ever have any prestige. I call you on that. If you think that racing the fastest, coolest sailboats won't have prestige, you really are a bit out of touch, and I have never thought of you as that.

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Just now, Team_GBR said:

Why would it have any less prestige than any other non AC series. Are you saying the Extrme series has zero prestige, or the TP52 series has zero prestige or that no new series will ever have any prestige. I call you on that. If you think that racing the fastest, coolest sailboats won't have prestige, you really are a bit out of touch, and I have never thought of you as that.

Ok,  so I would have thought most people could spot hyperbole. 

Obviously what I meant is that it would have very little prestige compared to the AC, but i suspect you knew that and we're being intentionally obtuse. I'm just not sure why.

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LVWS > ESS? Clearly

LVWS > TP52? OK, I think so, provided they keep the development element

LVWS > a trad monohull AC? We're getting into murky territory. Prestige and old world style vs much cooler boats.

So is this really just a lean on LR and the "it should be the sport I fell in love with 40+ years ago" thinkers in terms of not going trad with the boats?

Will GD be grumpy if shifts the dial towards a more aggressive boat choice for AC36?

Seriously Kiwis, I'm not sure why you're bagging on this one.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

The boats are, IMO, pretty tame compared with the AC50's. Upwind foiling, 100% airtime. 40+knots downwind. It's Formula 1 vs F3 or whatever other metaphor you want. I can helm a GS32 but I know I cannot helm an AC50.

Won't ESS just evolve over time to solve this though?

You'd probably be better at driving today's F1 vs an F3 from the 90s ;-)

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3 minutes ago, rgeek said:

LVWS > ESS? Clearly

LVWS > TP52? OK, I think so, provided they keep the development element

LVWS > a trad monohull AC? We're getting into murky territory. Prestige and old world style vs much cooler boats.

So is this really just a lean on LR and the "it should be the sport I fell in love with 40+ years ago" thinkers in terms of not going trad with the boats?

Will GD be grumpy if shifts the dial towards a more aggressive boat choice for AC36?

Seriously Kiwis, I'm not sure why you're bagging on this one.

I don't it's a matter of bagging it so much as adding some realism to balance the belief of some that it will somehow supplant the AC which of course it won't. 

We have history to tell us that this is the case. I still remember the LV Pacific Series that was set up whilst the Lazza vs Ernie cluster fuck was going on.

It was an interesting series but was never going to supplant the AC and indeed was never intended to. 

If Lazza is doing this just because he wants a cheaper option than entering the AC or because he prefers cats, then cool. But to expect it to place the AC in its shadow is utterly unrealistic. 

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1 minute ago, rh2600 said:

Won't ESS just evolve over time to solve this though?

You'd probably be better at driving today's F1 vs an F3 from the 90s ;-)

You've never seen me drive! I am sure I could kill myself just as well in either :D

As for the ESS, I don't think it needs to evolve further. The style of racing and the locations they go to make the GC32 a good boat for what they are doing. You couldn't sail an AC50 on their courses. It was bad enough they tried the foiling AC45's on some stupid locations. 

3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

But to expect it to place the AC in its shadow is utterly unrealistic. 

Agreed. I think it is a great idea as a stand along series and I would be a supporter of it, but if it was being done to throw shade on the AC, that would be another matter. Besides the simple fact it would fail, I couldn't support something with that intent.

Come on! Let's get real! Forget the AC just for a minute. Forget whether cats or monos would be better for the AC. This isn't about any of that. It would be about fleet racing the coolest boats - the fastest (race) boats with (some of) the best sailors. What's not to like?

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If we're to take it seriously for a second...

Totally agree. The LVPS was pathetic. Hauling out dreary old lead mines with no further development meaning you knew which boat was faster/would win before the warning signal and relying on the same nationalism and 'prestige' as it seems we're potentially heading back to with the AC.

Equal if they go OD it'll go stale fast.

If they keep the design element and the boats are clearly kicking the ass of what ever is in the AC and constantly evolving.

Ferrari Challenge vs Vintage Grand Prix (or what ever that thing was with the cool music and old farts getting drunk, exuding bonhomie and racing their old skool sports cars at exclusive events

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9 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Come on! Let's get real! Forget the AC just for a minute. Forget whether cats or monos would be better for the AC. This isn't about any of that. It would be about fleet racing the coolest boats - the fastest (race) boats with (some of) the best sailors. What's not to like?

If they stopped worrying about a crowd on shore, took it to places with beautiful backdrops where there is wind and made it free to online, that would be deeply cool. 

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13 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

You've never seen me drive! I am sure I could kill myself just as well in either :D

As for the ESS, I don't think it needs to evolve further. The style of racing and the locations they go to make the GC32 a good boat for what they are doing. You couldn't sail an AC50 on their courses. It was bad enough they tried the foiling AC45's on some stupid locations. 

Agreed. I think it is a great idea as a stand along series and I would be a supporter of it, but if it was being done to throw shade on the AC, that would be another matter. Besides the simple fact it would fail, I couldn't support something with that intent.

Come on! Let's get real! Forget the AC just for a minute. Forget whether cats or monos would be better for the AC. This isn't about any of that. It would be about fleet racing the coolest boats - the fastest (race) boats with (some of) the best sailors. What's not to like?

We'll for the cat lovers out there it is probably awesome.

But I never found the AC50s compelling to watch and one of my biggest concerns AC36 is that etnz might pick a boat that is likewise not compelling. 

 

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Well there is one less AC50 to use as Aotearoa is destined to be a museum piece on the waterfront. Unless LE wants for say $100 million lol

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

Why would it have any less prestige than any other non AC series. Are you saying the Extrme series has zero prestige, or the TP52 series has zero prestige or that no new series will ever have any prestige. I call you on that. If you think that racing the fastest, coolest sailboats won't have prestige, you really are a bit out of touch, and I have never thought of you as that.

Because every other series started from a need, to fill a gap in the sailing market. Each series exists on its own merits, with its own spot in the market. If some AC50 series started, it would be started purely from a standpoint that Oracle lost the Americas Cup, and instead of competing to win it back, would rather start some kind of series using technology previously developed for the Americas Cup to compete against the Americas Cup. To survive, a series has to be started for the right reasons, not because teams who lost the Americas Cup want to keep doing Americas Cup things without actually being in the Americas Cup.

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7 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Because every other series started from a need, to fill a gap in the sailing market. Each series exists on its own merits, with its own spot in the market. If some AC50 series started, it would be started purely from a standpoint that Oracle lost the Americas Cup, and instead of competing to win it back, would rather start some kind of series using technology previously developed for the Americas Cup to compete against the Americas Cup. To survive, a series has to be started for the right reasons, not because teams who lost the Americas Cup want to keep doing Americas Cup things without actually being in the Americas Cup.

"Coalition of the losers" - now where have I heard that term before?

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Wait a daggumm minute.. wasn't the 70 model a big improvement over the 67?

As is AC36 over the AC35 model... 8)

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35 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Because every other series started from a need, to fill a gap in the sailing market. Each series exists on its own merits, with its own spot in the market. If some AC50 series started, it would be started purely from a standpoint that Oracle lost the Americas Cup, and instead of competing to win it back, would rather start some kind of series using technology previously developed for the Americas Cup to compete against the Americas Cup. To survive, a series has to be started for the right reasons, not because teams who lost the Americas Cup want to keep doing Americas Cup things without actually being in the Americas Cup.

Or you could say it's just a continuation of what they started and believed in enough to but a lot of cash behind with very little chance of a return. The motivation to create something they believed wont die, particularly if they think the AC has been turned backwards.

So not so much sore losers, but rather with the shackles of the DoG off, continuing to put their money where their mouths are ... or at least making noises about it.

Pretty simple to find out. PTNZ can just call their bluff if they like.

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 :lol: Yeah sure.

ETNZ started it - with their foiling 72, ETNZ perfected it (at least under the restricted ACC Rule), and the boats these guys would run are wannabe rubbish - plus they will be trashed in a few weeks without a huge and constant input of work and cash - clearly non-viable.

Also: those who claim there is no spite involved are either lying or deluded.

If 'Grumpy' Grant was ever a thing then surely Shit-stirring Mundle and/or Petty, spiteful, jealous LE?

'NYYC' ;) says - either get aboard or walk away with a little dignity intact.

 

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7 minutes ago, nav said:

Petty, spiteful, jealous LE?

I think people may be misreading LE and his motivations. 

Is he arrogant? Sure. But petty, spiteful, and jealous? Not as much. A shrink might say not at all, that he could not have achieved what he has in life by acting through pettiness or jealousy. 

If you want to understand where this LVWS might be headed, I think you first need to (try) to get inside Larry's head. 

He's ~73 years old. His final major business objective was to get NetSuite acquired by Oracle. Done. He has little else to prove at the office. 

He's worth north of $50b; his salary alone is $50mm - I bet his total income is near $1bn ANNUALLY. 

He's in legacy-setting mode with a SHITLOAD of money with which to shape his legacy. Sure, he'll give away a ton of it, but helping 3rd-world farmers is a Bill Gates thing, not a Larry Ellison thing. 

He loves being an American, he loves the Bay Area, he loves Japanese culture and Japan, and he loves sailing. 

So where does that leave him? 

I'd say it makes total sense that it leaves him in the perfect position to be the France/Ecclestone of sailing and establish a new racing circuit that leverages technology and speed, that he intends to make it the premier circuit that attracts viewers from well outside the current group of sailing enthusiasts. And let us not forget the RedBull/Youth aspect to the equation. I'll wager he plans to set up a varsity (LVWS) and junior-varsity (RedBull) circuit at the same time. And I bet he'll be incorporating the US olympic sailing effort as part of all of this. 

When it comes time for him to depart this earth, he would then have left behind a powerhouse US Olympic team, a legitimate youth circuit to absorb former Olympians, and the premier professional sail racing circuit self sustained by sponsorships across the globe. 

 

As sailing enthusiasts, I think we should be hoping that the above is some rough facsimile of his plans, and I think we should be hoping he achieves it. As Renny said, we as sailors and fans have nothing to lose if he wants to spend part of his fortune on the future of our sport, and a lot to gain. 

 

Fwiw. 

2N

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Larry had every opportunity over various campaigns to support US sailors and US sailing, but to date has done little to support your argument. Will that change in his remaining years, we can all be hopeful but at this stage you're dreaming.  I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.

There are at least 3 circuits of high performance multihulls that travel the world.  Those events cost nowhere near 10 million per year to enter, yet they struggle to gain traction.  How is a more expensive, massively complicated, dangerous and logistically challenging boat going to gather more interest from prospective share holders.  All you're doing is diluting the overall market for sponsorship, not to mention the talent pool of sailors, shore crew and designers.  Someone will get stuck with the short end of the stick and I'm telling you now the traveling events with higher logistic requirements will be the ones that suffer the most.  If this goes ahead, fact of the matter is LE, TT and any other donors will be burning money to keep it alive. The good news is, someone will collect a nice paycheck for a year or two...

 

 

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11 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The boats are, IMO, pretty tame compared with the AC50's. Upwind foiling, 100% airtime. 40+knots downwind. It's Formula 1 vs F3 or whatever other metaphor you want. I can helm a GS32 but I know I cannot helm an AC50.

What's the wind range, and how many attractive venues provide it?
I'm asking, because the EXSS' GC32s can sail non-foiling in very little wind, and foiling in a good breeze, and even then approx. 1/4 to 1/3 (my guess, I haven't counted) of sailing days are canceled during the season.
If the LE50s are more sensitive (ohhh, I think they are), the venue choice becomes rather difficult, or the events become boring.

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15 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The other thought that springs to mind is that all the animosity suggests that some see it as either a threat to AC36 or that it might shade it. If that is the case, it suggests they are getting it wrong with AC36 and if it isn't, then why worry about it and heap abuse on it?

I'm not abusing it. I am just not interested in it. Not at all.

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4 hours ago, 2Newts said:

I think people may be misreading LE and his motivations. 

Is he arrogant? Sure. But petty, spiteful, and jealous? Not as much. A shrink might say not at all, that he could not have achieved what he has in life by acting through pettiness or jealousy. 

If you want to understand where this LVWS might be headed, I think you first need to (try) to get inside Larry's head. 

He's ~73 years old. His final major business objective was to get NetSuite acquired by Oracle. Done. He has little else to prove at the office. 

He's worth north of $50b; his salary alone is $50mm - I bet his total income is near $1bn ANNUALLY. 

He's in legacy-setting mode with a SHITLOAD of money with which to shape his legacy. Sure, he'll give away a ton of it, but helping 3rd-world farmers is a Bill Gates thing, not a Larry Ellison thing. 

He loves being an American, he loves the Bay Area, he loves Japanese culture and Japan, and he loves sailing. 

So where does that leave him? 

I'd say it makes total sense that it leaves him in the perfect position to be the France/Ecclestone of sailing and establish a new racing circuit that leverages technology and speed, that he intends to make it the premier circuit that attracts viewers from well outside the current group of sailing enthusiasts. And let us not forget the RedBull/Youth aspect to the equation. I'll wager he plans to set up a varsity (LVWS) and junior-varsity (RedBull) circuit at the same time. And I bet he'll be incorporating the US olympic sailing effort as part of all of this. 

When it comes time for him to depart this earth, he would then have left behind a powerhouse US Olympic team, a legitimate youth circuit to absorb former Olympians, and the premier professional sail racing circuit self sustained by sponsorships across the globe. 

 

As sailing enthusiasts, I think we should be hoping that the above is some rough facsimile of his plans, and I think we should be hoping he achieves it. As Renny said, we as sailors and fans have nothing to lose if he wants to spend part of his fortune on the future of our sport, and a lot to gain. 

 

Fwiw. 

2N

+1. He has and is doing a lot for tennis too so why not?

It is also not AC36 and there is no harm at all to that event, with a possible exception in the case of Artemis - who may choose between the two, but could  still conceivably do both. No other potential AC teams appear affected.

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5 hours ago, nav said:

 :lol: Yeah sure.

ETNZ started it - with their foiling 72, ETNZ perfected it (at least under the restricted ACC Rule), and the boats these guys would run are wannabe rubbish - plus they will be trashed in a few weeks without a huge and constant input of work and cash - clearly non-viable.

Also: those who claim there is no spite involved are either lying or deluded.

If 'Grumpy' Grant was ever a thing then surely Shit-stirring Mundle and/or Petty, spiteful, jealous LE?

'NYYC' ;) says - either get aboard or walk away with a little dignity intact.

 

TT seems pretty pissed that his investment in developing foiling multihull has been shelved on a whim. Otherwise this has to be shit stirring all the way.

Plenty of spite on all sides, when has there ever not been when you get a split like this in a sport.

NYYC? They wrote the book that OTUSA took their plays from. Slag one, slag them both. It may have a charming grin but when it bites your arm off you'll know it's still a shark.

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5 hours ago, 2Newts said:

I think people may be misreading LE and his motivations. 

Is he arrogant? Sure. But petty, spiteful, and jealous? Not as much. A shrink might say not at all, that he could not have achieved what he has in life by acting through pettiness or jealousy. 

If you want to understand where this LVWS might be headed, I think you first need to (try) to get inside Larry's head. 

He's ~73 years old. His final major business objective was to get NetSuite acquired by Oracle. Done. He has little else to prove at the office. 

He's worth north of $50b; his salary alone is $50mm - I bet his total income is near $1bn ANNUALLY. 

He's in legacy-setting mode with a SHITLOAD of money with which to shape his legacy. Sure, he'll give away a ton of it, but helping 3rd-world farmers is a Bill Gates thing, not a Larry Ellison thing. 

He loves being an American, he loves the Bay Area, he loves Japanese culture and Japan, and he loves sailing. 

So where does that leave him? 

I'd say it makes total sense that it leaves him in the perfect position to be the France/Ecclestone of sailing and establish a new racing circuit that leverages technology and speed, that he intends to make it the premier circuit that attracts viewers from well outside the current group of sailing enthusiasts. And let us not forget the RedBull/Youth aspect to the equation. I'll wager he plans to set up a varsity (LVWS) and junior-varsity (RedBull) circuit at the same time. And I bet he'll be incorporating the US olympic sailing effort as part of all of this. 

When it comes time for him to depart this earth, he would then have left behind a powerhouse US Olympic team, a legitimate youth circuit to absorb former Olympians, and the premier professional sail racing circuit self sustained by sponsorships across the globe. 

 

As sailing enthusiasts, I think we should be hoping that the above is some rough facsimile of his plans, and I think we should be hoping he achieves it. As Renny said, we as sailors and fans have nothing to lose if he wants to spend part of his fortune on the future of our sport, and a lot to gain. 

 

Fwiw. 

2N

Is this a serious post?  Over the last 17 years what has Larry Ellison done in regards to sailing to suggest whatever he does in the future will benefit USA sailing in any way?  This is the same Larry Ellison who has had so many American's on his FIVE AC campaigns that you can probably count how many there were with one hand (maybe two), never flew the American flag over his AC teams base in Valencia during AC32, only embraced the American flag and USA when he was fighting EB in court and needed to drum up support in the States for the AC defense in San Francisco for AC35 and, his biggest contribution to USA sailing to date, defended the America's Cup with his TEAM USA in fucking Bermuda.  Yeah, Larry Ellison:  Supreme Benefactor of USA Sailing!  :lol:

Larry Ellison only gives a shit about Larry Ellison.  Meh, he probably cares about his kids too, but thats it.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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^ Perhaps he is no flag waver but LE's life story is about as American as you can get. Chr*st, his family is even named after a particularly famous island! Not to mention the country of his birth, education, company, headquarters, and probably all of his ginormous, stunning, real estate holdings. As for tennis: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-06-04/oracle-s-larry-ellison-plans-u-s-tennis-revival-indian-wells-growth

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On 10/18/2017 at 5:34 AM, rgeek said:

Most of the teams from AC35 + a previous double AC winner. Same format. Live line. And Louis Vuitton as a sponsor.

At least we'll have something to draw a direct comparison with.

Pass the popcorn!

http://www.robmundle.com/is-larry-ellisons-americas-cup-style-world-series-about-to-be-announced/

 

 

 

"direct comparison with" what?

AC35? No comparison because the winner won't be competing in that mickey-mouse Larry Ellison Petulant Series

AC36? No comparison - it's the America's Cup!

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15 hours ago, rgeek said:

If we're to take it seriously for a second...

Totally agree. The LVPS was pathetic. Hauling out dreary old lead mines with no further development meaning you knew which boat was faster/would win before the warning signal and relying on the same nationalism and 'prestige' as it seems we're potentially heading back to with the AC.

 

1

The alt-Right movement are looking for revisionists to dumb down historical facts. No comparison mate!! The Louis Vuitton Pacific Series was an initiative to keep AC Challengers from previous editions engaged while the self-serving Bertarelli-Ellison dick-measuring contest was going through NYSC, ultimately resulting in the DoG Match.

The Larry Ellison Petulant Series is being touted as a stand-alone event for the 5 AC35 losers, for the bragging rights of being the Biggest Loser :lol:

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ Perhaps he is no flag waver but LE's life story is about as American as you can get. Chr*st, his family is even named after a particularly famous island! Not to mention the country of his birth, education, company, headquarters, and probably all of his ginormous, stunning, real estate holdings. As for tennis: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-06-04/oracle-s-larry-ellison-plans-u-s-tennis-revival-indian-wells-growth

I'm not even sure what this means... an 'American life story'?, a surname, land assets, as if these somehow define how "American" you are...and how that somehow corresponds to how much you care about supporting 'American Sailing'.... 

ummmm what? Pass me the bong stingers!

Actual deeds and real public conduct - not verbal self-indulgent assertions by someone or their surrogates - are what is proof of someone's true self - but I can appreciate how some in the US are struggling with this these days given the obvious example of this playing out right now...

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

TT seems pretty pissed that his investment in developing foiling multihull has been shelved on a whim. Otherwise this has to be shit stirring all the way.

Plenty of spite on all sides, when has there ever not been when you get a split like this in a sport.

NYYC? They wrote the book that OTUSA took their plays from. Slag one, slag them both. It may have a charming grin but when it bites your arm off you'll know it's still a shark.

Oh you mean kind of like LR and ETNZ were pissed when their significant investment in larger multihulls was shelved on a whim last time?

I wonder which way TT voted on that one...

That wasn't even done in the proper manner when the boat design was given to the teams as is the defenders right, but rather arbitrarily some time later.

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29 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

I'm not even sure what this means... an 'American life story'?, a surname, land assets, as if these somehow define how "American" you are...and how that somehow corresponds to how much you care about supporting 'American Sailing'.... 

ummmm what? Pass me the bong stingers!

Actual deeds and real public conduct - not verbal self-indulgent assertions by someone or their surrogates - are what is proof of someone's true self - but I can appreciate how some in the US are struggling with this these days given the obvious example of this playing out right now...

Shrug. WH wanted a more overtly nationalist element to LE's AC campaigns and I agreed he is no flag waver but pointed to how very American he is. Once you're worth $Billions and you continue to be home-country focused, well that's by choice and that's what he has done.

I am no big fan of most $B's, there's plenty to critique LE for too, but to the extent they do 'philanthropic' things that promote goodness, even if that includes lavishing money on a sport they appreciate, well kudos to them for it.

As for your shot at US politics, LE may be no angel (supports mostly moderate Republican candidates instead of my support choices) but the real ire for many of us is aimed at serious megalomaniac $B's. Yes, DeVos unfortunately among them despite the good he may also do for sailing; which is basically true of most NYYC AC owner history. 

Edit, oops that Tennis philanthropy link is to a $ubscriber article but there are many others that describe that effort by LE; there is an analogy to be had to his sailing goals and he has spoken of wanting to build a 'sailing academy' on SF Bay to inspire and fund US sailors.

Wtf P$B's goals are, is maybe the better question looking ahead to AC36..

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

 

Is this a serious post?  Over the last 17 years what has Larry Ellison done in regards to sailing to suggest whatever he does in the future will benefit USA sailing in any way?  This is the same Larry Ellison who has had so many American's on his FIVE AC campaigns that you can probably count how many there were with one hand (maybe two), never flew the American flag over his AC teams base in Valencia during AC32, only embraced the American flag and USA when he was fighting EB in court and needed to drum up support in the States for the AC defense in San Francisco for AC35 and, his biggest contribution to USA sailing to date, defended the America's Cup with his TEAM USA in fucking Bermuda.  Yeah, Larry Ellison:  Supreme Benefactor of USA Sailing!  :lol:

Larry Ellison only gives a shit about Larry Ellison.  Meh, he probably cares about his kids too, but thats it.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Agreed.

Yes, it is theoretically possible Lazza might suddenly turn all charitable towards US sailing, but there is practically zero evidence of that.

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A funny/interesting part of LE's life is about why his first wife left him; it was because he went out and borrowed $30K to buy a sailboat they couldn't afford, after him almost drowning under the Golden Gate in something much smaller.

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43 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A funny/interesting part of LE's life is about why his first wife left him; it was because he went out and borrowed $30K to buy a sailboat they couldn't afford, after him almost drowning under the Golden Gate in something much smaller.

So she left him because he's selfish arsehole?

Yup, sounds about right...

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47 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

So she left him because he's selfish arsehole?

Yup, sounds about right...

The story illustrates his passion for sailing starting since even before he could afford it. If he lost a wife over it, well then that was apparently his priority.. There have been plenty of similar situations described in the Forums over the years by just normal punters.

His horizons have expanded but me? I hope he thinks back and decides to continue to pursue that passion, Big time. 

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