Dave J

Pilothouse For Puget Sound, $40K Or Less

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 2:45 PM, JAndrews said:

Dorothy sails really well. She's easy to balance and comes up to speed quickly. That said, even with brand new sails, she doesn't point AT ALL.  *Maybe* 45 degrees apparent. I haven't tried running inside sheets using the #2 jib--right now, our ability to point is limited by the spreaders and line angles. Summer air is very light, so we usually have a drifter (mostly retired now) or a 120% genoa mounted. Someone who really knows what they're doing might help me with that... but for now, we only sail directly up-wind if we don't care when we get there. That said: fall off to 50 degrees to the wind or further, she's well-mannered, easy to balance, fast, and responsive.

If you have not done it yet, get the rig tuned. No idea of your sailing background, but check halyard tension for draft position and then genoa block for proper angle.  My pilothouse sailboat is sheeted outboard to the rail and in anything over about 7 kts of breeze can easily hold around 35-40 degrees. Under that and she struggles a bit.

WL

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On 10/18/2017 at 1:56 PM, Alan H said:

There's a really cool looking Skookum 34 built with a pilothouse that's been on the Oly Peninsula craigslist for a long time.

https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/bod/d/34-ft-1981-skookum-34/6320646179.html

 

Personally, I think that looks like a great boat. I'm just not a full keel + wheel steering kind of guy.

 

On 10/18/2017 at 3:23 PM, Bob Perry said:

To my eye that Skookum appears to be hogging at the chainplates. Not a good sign.

 

assuming this is the case, what is "hogging at the chainplates?"

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32 minutes ago, Albert_pnw said:

 

 

assuming this is the case, what is "hogging at the chainplates?"

The structure of the boat is getting soft, so the chainplates are pulling that part of the hull up and inwards. Usually this means that the ends droop. This is never a good sign.

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The structure of the boat is getting soft, so the chainplates are pulling that part of the hull up and inwards. Usually this means that the ends droop. This is never a good sign.

Assuming the photos are the same as the original listing, how can one tell? 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/bod/d/34-ft-1981-skookum-34/6463132734.html

Also, one user previously noted:

..."I don't see the hogging,  the sheer looks OK to me, but that IS just one picture and you have a better eye for that stuff than I do, Bob..."

thoughts? 

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I think you'd have to see the boat in person.  I'd probably hunker down on deck and sight down the toerail, looking for any significant irregularities.

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2 hours ago, Albert_pnw said:

Assuming the photos are the same as the original listing, how can one tell? 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/bod/d/34-ft-1981-skookum-34/6463132734.html

Also, one user previously noted:

..."I don't see the hogging,  the sheer looks OK to me, but that IS just one picture and you have a better eye for that stuff than I do, Bob..."

thoughts? 

It would take a lot of deterioration in the hull structure for a glass boat to hog significantly. I'd want to see what it does when it's hauled out. Or measure distance bow to stern, slack off rig and measure again.

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Skookum 34' are shall we say, not built lightly.  They're freaking tanks. In fact they're so ridiculously beefy that the sheer weight and mass would put me off. I'd prefer something more sprightly.

However, I live and sail down here on SF Bay and I only know Skookum by reputation.  Bob Perry lives, works and farts around in Skookums back yard, AND his business is boats.  I'm sure he knows the Skookum guys.   If Bob says he's suspicious about the sheer hogging, I would not take that lightly.

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Hey, it looks fine to ME, but I'm just some schmuck who'se seen the boat on Craigslist. 

Personally, that boat features prominently in my late-night-at-work fantasies of chucking it all and moving to Port Townsend.  However, honest truth is that while I'd probably like living on it for a year or two, sailing it might not quite be my cup of tea.  But that's just me.  Whatever makes folks happy...

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It's been a few months of boat looking and trying to find something interesting out there.  If I up my price to $60K to $75K, any suggestions for a decent sailing pilothouse or something with inside steering for Puget Sound?  I've looked at a couple Coopers but they don't seem proportioned for us.  Freedoms look interesting.  We chartered a Panda 40 years ago but not a pilothouse.  That was a great boat.  We looked at an Islander 36 Freeport which is close other than the inside steering.  Size can be in the 33 to 40 range and low maintenance so doesn't need a lot of exterior wood.  It'll be mainly for the two of us (retired) with some guests from time to time.  We prefer something with a more open layout.  My wife would like something finished off nicely, cockpit with seats long enough to sleep on, an aft head and separate shower, quarter cabin and forward cabin, walk through transom or step for easier boarding, but that's all flexible.  I'm probably leaving out a bunch of info but this seems like a good starting point.  Thanks.

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If inside steering is simply a no go, an enclosed cockpit or good dodger and cockpit cover on a typical sloop will probably be next.

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On 10/19/2017 at 10:07 AM, Bob Perry said:

A bit bigger and maybe a bit more dough but one hell of a motor sailer, the Cheoy Lee 43 Long Range MS. Designed by my good friend bob perry. This one is in Europe and getting ready for a family circumnavigation. A bit too much crap on de back for me but I suppose it's practical if not beautiful. The lovely contours to the cabin trunk were crafted by my helper at the time Gary Grant. There is a lot of subtle complexity going on there. These boats will surprise you with their performance. Many years ago I went to the SFYC Stagg Cruise on a CL 43 MS. In the crew were designers Dave Pedrick and Frank MacClear. They were puzzled by how the boat could motor so fast. The only boat that passed us as we steamed up the Delta was a SC 50. I sent them the hull lines when I got home. It's a chunk of a boat with huge tanks. I think I started the design with the tank layout then wrapped a hull around it.

23943394018_a63a6da21c_k.jpgCL 43 MS at dock by robert perry, on Flickr

37764331322_90b6674207_k.jpgCL 43 MS 2 by robert perry, on Flickr

I am in love.  How have I never heard of this boat? Me want. Pant pant

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Can't...hold...out....much ....longer.  Gasp!  Reaching...for...my....wallet. Double gasp!  Must...have....boat....now!!!

OK, that's pretty much what I'd like.  Now if we can just find an owner of one of these who is as desperate to sell as I am to buy...

 

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Not for your price(s).

Those things are always well into 6 figures.

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My buddy has a 42 and I've come to the conclusion that it's a great PNW boat. As a motorsailor, its got plenty of power for those no-wind PNW summers while its modest SA/D is just fine in the windier shoulder seasons. She's snug as a bug in the winter. They hold their value well, for better (resale) or worse (initial purchase price). 

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A distant neighbor had a 42 (I think) and sure liked it.  He was the one that mentioned some have fin keels.  Before then, I never thought much about them due to price and what I thought were full keelers. I know they're not cheap but if this is going to be my last boat (famous last words, right?)...

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Last boats don't exist unless you die while owning it.  Next boats are just around the corner and can be pretty much anywhere (you least expect it)

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I'm in the process of buying my third last boat.

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We rowed by two Scepter 41's in the same marina tonight and had to drift awhile next to them.  I've always liked them.  This one in the above ad is "only" $6K more than the Nauticat 35 for sale in Seattle. Hey, you only live once!

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

While not a “real” pilot house, more a deck saloon, what about a Newport 35? There’s one in budget range with a full canvas enclosure in BC.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/Newport-Pilothouse-3209881/Maple-Bay/Canada?refSource=browse listing#.Wvxv4RZlDYU

I'll not forget seeing the plastic thru hulls on a Newport 41 many years ago.  And No, not Forespar Marelon ones.  I mean cheap, brittle looking plastic ones.  Kinda made me a bit leery of Newport boats after that....

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I like the looks of those Newports and that this is a Gary Mull design.  I think it's a 33 footer.  It looks pretty nice and well equipped.  I saw the 39 foot version of this boat last year in Semiahmoo (or nearby).  That was the first 39 I'd seen.  With pilothouses/inside steering boats with decent upwind performance not too abundant around here, a deck saloon type would be a comfortable 2nd place.  Yes, good thru hulls are important, but I wonder just how good of a boat anyone really needs for Puget Sound?  I assume the Newports would outlast me.   Thanks for the link.

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1 hour ago, Dave J said:

Yes, good thru hulls are important, but I wonder just how good of a boat anyone really needs for Puget Sound? 

Exactly - not exactly rounding the Horn around here.

I've been sailing here since the early 70's and I've never heard of a boat going down due to a construction inadequacy.

Any coastal cruiser will do from that standpoint.

That Newport didn't seem to have an inside helm so not a pilothouse.

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23 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Exactly - not exactly rounding the Horn around here.

I've been sailing here since the early 70's and I've never heard of a boat going down due to a construction inadequacy.

Any coastal cruiser will do from that standpoint.

That Newport didn't seem to have an inside helm so not a pilothouse.

exactly, i'd call it an early Deck Saloon. Funnily enough, newports were raced on SF Bay for a bunch of years.  You don't see them much anymore, but I recall seeing them in the PHRF fleet pac in the 90s. Folks would always say lightly built, but they were still out there.

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On 5/14/2018 at 2:15 AM, Dave J said:

If inside steering is simply a no go, an enclosed cockpit or good dodger and cockpit cover on a typical sloop will probably be next.

I'll vouch for that arrangement. 

A lot of boats already have it, and it would cost quite a lot to add on.

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Thanks.  I think that's probably the way we'll go.  Here are three that appeal to us (on paper anyway). I haven't seen any in person.  We like the simplicity of a Freedom or Nonsuch.  I wouldn't mind if the Freedom was cheaper but it looks well equipped other than radar and it's newer than most boats we've looked at.  It has the shallow draft keel which I can't decide if I want to take a chance on.  I like the idea of better performance with the deeper fin keel but haven't seen much one way or the other specifically on this boat.  There's also the Freedom 32' that could work.  http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=2995

The 2nd is the CS34 (CS30 or CS36 could work depending on the boat, gear and condition). I've only read good things about them.  Here's a sistership  http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/Canadian-Sailcraft-34-3049147/Toronto/Canada?refSource=standard listing#.Wv5JISCQy00

The third is a Mirage 35 (although I'd probably prefer the 33 since it's supposedly the same but without the reversed transom and a little lighter).  I do like Bob's designs so it has that going for it.  http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=3142

So, any thoughts?

 

 

 

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All good boats. Whichever specific one is in the best condition should be the deciding factor IMO.

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Don’t worry about the keel performance differences for an old, cheap, comfy boat. The difference is simply time to enjoy another beer or hot buttered rum. Same logic on those boats for not needing rockstar sails, new running rigging, carbon rig, etc.

Redirect your performace seeking towards maxing comfort: ensuring you can keep your beer cold and the dinner hot, that the donkey is happy, and you’re not going to get crabs from the squabs. And rowaway factor.

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Dave:

You are correct. The Mirage 35 is the exact same hull and rig as the 33. Only the transom is different and with it a bit more LOA. I prefer the look of the 33 but the 35 may be a very slightly better sailing boat.

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Assuming a Baba 40 is still over budget the standard sloop idea is workable. I have a good dodger and in most conditions can duck up forward out of the weather. An autopilot with a remote helps, I am looking at this for mine http://www.madmanmarine.com/shop/4576847473/Remote-Controls. Another thing to consider in our area is reliable heat, the Webasto or similar forced air heaters work well. I have one in my boat and have considered adding a vent in the cockpit forward at foot level.

I suspect that since the pool of used standard sailboats is so much greater than pilothouse boats you can get a much less expensive boat, add the heat dodger and autopilot and still come out ahead. A nice bridge deck to sit on would be icing on the cake.

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Experience tells me the "budget" may be flexible to some degree when the client sees a boat he really wants. I can give you several examples.

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I would appreciate any suggestions, Bob.  The budget is flexible.  I've read through your book a couple of times and have enjoyed your boat reviews.

Good idea on the autopilot remote.  I think that would be a slick way to go.  Also, heat is a definite plus.  We like the idea of year around use.

I suppose worrying about an extra half knot or 5 degrees better angle for just a knocking around the sound and daysailing boat for a couple of retirees doesn't pay.  Maybe I wouldn't even notice the difference in the wing vs the fin keel.  I bought a new J29 years ago and loved the way it sailed.  I had a Santana 30 whose performance pleased me.  We charted a great Panda 40 many years ago which we loved.  I've had other fin keel sailboats and sailed on others' and now that I think about it, they were all fun to sail so maybe I'm overthinking the performance end.  I appreciate the input.

I don't have the forum lingo down so not sure what "^^^ this" means, Bump This?

 

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"^^^ This" means Agreement with the preceding post

Bump is for bringing back an old thread that hasn't been added to for a while but the person bumping it doesn't have anything new either - just trying to bring it to peoples attention again.

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3 hours ago, steele said:

Assuming a Baba 40 is still over budget the standard sloop idea is workable. I have a good dodger and in most conditions can duck up forward out of the weather. An autopilot with a remote helps, I am looking at this for mine http://www.madmanmarine.com/shop/4576847473/Remote-Controls. Another thing to consider in our area is reliable heat, the Webasto or similar forced air heaters work well. I have one in my boat and have considered adding a vent in the cockpit forward at foot level.

I suspect that since the pool of used standard sailboats is so much greater than pilothouse boats you can get a much less expensive boat, add the heat dodger and autopilot and still come out ahead. A nice bridge deck to sit on would be icing on the cake.

I've had the madman remote for several years, and it is a nice luxury.  I keep one remote on the chart table and the other in my pocket. The main problem is remembering to have fresh batteries available when I want to use it.  One of the remotes went bad after a year or so, and Madman promptly shipped one out to me at no cost from Oz!  I guess the main quibble is that there isn't much feedback as to whether a +1 command has been received, though the +10 is generally obvious.  I have this habit of hitting +1 +1 +1 to make a small course correction, which the madman tends to interpret as "go to standby," and I don't notice until we are getting badly off-course.  

FWIW, I end up sitting in the companionway, to get in on a bit of cabin heat.  I keep thinking of making a seat to slip over the bottom hatch board. But I guess I'll make the new hatch boards first...

Hasn't somebody been advertising a Baba 40 "project" on craigslist for $40K or so?  

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Good to know SloopJonB.

Glad to hear teh company stands behind their product on the wireless remote.

I've seen the ad for a project Baba 40 but not really looking for a project unless it's mainly cleaning, new covers, etc.  This one needs the engine put back together or for $18K I suppose a new one could be installed?  https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/boa/d/baba-40-great-project/6593140100.html

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

Dammit you guys, you've got me drooling over things I can't afford ...

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Valiant-40-Pilothouse-3201152/Mystery-Bay/WA/United-States?refSource=enhanced listing#.WwBqAkgvw2w

Except I'd have to change the name, it strikes me as kinda racist.

Took me a minute but I see what you did there.

Only one cabin so that's a deal-breaker for a family like ours but definitely interesting.

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Thanks for the link.  I've seen the boat on a buoy in the bay.  It's a nice looking one but a little more wood maintenance than what I'm looking for.

 

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Thanks SloopJonB.  I actually called the owner a month ago.  He was advertising the location as "Olympia in transit" at the time and later just Olympia.  The boat is in California.  He had been doing some work on the interior after living aboard for a while from what I remember.  He had more to do.  He was going to get some pics and info to me but never did.  We looked at another one a few weeks ago in Anacortes but it seemed well used.  They have potential but sure seem tall with high freeboard.  We'd almost need to raise the cabin sole or have a perch to see out at the inside helm.  We looked at one in Sydney, BC a couple months ago which since sold.  The dealer told us about a short video the owner made.  It makes the boat look like it sails well.

 

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In that video they are sailing at 50 degrees (instruments are visible at 0:53 in the video), so a close reach.  Most boats sail pretty nicely at that angle.

Having said that it isn't too awfully heavy for it's size and it would probably point higher if they had inboard genoa tracks instead of sheeting to the gunwales.

It's weird that the seller is being fishy about where the boat is actually located.

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Good eye on reading the instruments.

I asked the Cooper seller why he was bringing the boat to Olympia or when it would be in Olympia, ,since the ad said Olympia in transit.  He said he wasn't bringing it up but it wouldn't cost much to bring it up, maybe $3500 or something like that.  His feeling was that if someone was interested, they'd come to California to look at it.

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I bet that'd be a very comfortable boat for the sound.  Maybe have a small boat like a Vanguard Nomad for just fun sailing.  The one I'd prefer is probably the 35 with a fin keel (see pics above) but more money of course.  Everything I like is more money!

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