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Hard vs soft dinghy

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Ive got an 8hp on a 320 rib.   With one  person onboard it hauls ass...seagulls take fright, women  scream , grab thier children and flee ashore 

with two crew the rib will only plane downwind.

it's good compromise.

 

motors above 9hp should be avoided.

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3 hours ago, willp14335 said:

In Anacortes I got the chance to drive three different dinghies with the same 4 hp Tohatsu 4 stroke. The first was a 9 ft rigid floor rollup Bombard, and could barely plane with just me in it. It had a top speed of 10 knots accotding to my GPS. The second was a 10.5 ft (but lighter) Zodiac roll up dinghy with a soft floor. That one was the fastest out of the hole, but felt slower at top speed out of the three. The last is a 9 foot aluminum AB rib, which reached 13 knots. None of them planed with 2 people. 

How much did you weigh at the time?

1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

motors above 9hp should be avoided.

They're less fun to carry around but my old aluminum boat behaved only a bit better than your RIB when it had an 8 hp. Quick with one, planes with two, will very slowly get on plane with the coordinated effort of three. The three were my brothers and me, two around 160 lbs and one around 200.

I put a 15 and it goes almost 27 knots stripped and not a lot slower with my wife and me and fishing gear, leading me to believe it could go faster with a different prop. But I mostly use the engine on a bigger skiff for which the prop is right. It planes easily and still goes fast with three but I haven't clocked it.

My wife bought a Solo Skiff, which is a pretty cool hybrid of SOT kayak and motorboat (two things that probably shouldn't be mixed, but anyway). It's rated for 5. She bought a 6 because they weigh the same. Turns out she should have listened to the people who said a 3.5 is the right engine. My little 3.5 Nissan drives the boat at darn near the same speed as her 6 when lightly loaded, but weighs and costs quite a bit less. Mine's the flavor that has no neutral and she hated that a lot. I'll eventually give it to the grandkids for the little boat above, after I'm sure they can row and sail it.

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When you sail internationaly  operators of boats with power greater than 10 hp  may require a license.  

  Tenders with greater than 10 hp may be treated as separate vessels , not yacht tenders, and will require  documentation, insurance, in addition to a seperate cruising permit .  Complicated 

 

best to stay under 10 for true yacht tenders

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2 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

When you sail internationaly  operators of boats with power greater than 10 hp  may require a license.  

  Tenders with greater than 10 hp may be treated as separate vessels , not yacht tenders, and will require  documentation, insurance, in addition to a seperate cruising permit .  Complicated 

 

best to stay under 10 for true yacht tenders

That makes sense. I think we have 9.9's and 9.8's because some of the freshwater rules here say "10 hp or more" so they keep it legal by a tenth.

We towed my 18' Hydra Sports w/150 and a friend's 15' Whaler w/70 to the Bahamas once in a daisy chain. They were regarded as tenders by the authorities.

 

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Yup...9.8

that whole family of 9.8 size motors.. 6, 8 , 9.8 , 15  may use the  same block  , but are rated differently for different markets for legal reason 

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

How much did you weigh at the time?

My scale says 85 kg, but I've put on a little weight as Five Guys delivers in Southampton, and I've had a lot of assignments.... 

I'd guess I weighed around 75-80 in the summer when I was sailing and cycling more frequently, so about 180 lbs. 

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Restoring a Dyer Dhow sailing dinghy (lots of fun and a great winter project)...and we have an Avon inflatable floor with 4hp.   Can see when we want both when bopping about.  Anyone try towing both?   Besides the obvious mechanics seems like its doable except for the silly look factor (just us...no kids to deflect silly look too).

Was thinking of trying  just the hard with oars and see how that works out, but the sailing rig and rudder will be underfoot or need to go on mother-ship before rowing.

Such problems...

 

 

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I'm pretty sure the Dyer has a motor mount, doesn't it? I used to covet one when I was younger, although now I'm a bigger fan of the Trinka. 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Yup...9.8

that whole family of 9.8 size motors.. 6, 8 , 9.8 , 15  may use the  same block  , but are rated differently for different markets for legal reason 

The ubiquitous Tohatus4 stroke can be turned from a 4 horse power to a 6 horse power engine with a carb change . It can be labeled for a number of manufacturers so the applicability is more general then made the obvious. 

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1 hour ago, sshow bob said:

The ubiquitous Tohatus4 stroke can be turned from a 4 horse power to a 6 horse power engine with a carb change . It can be labeled for a number of manufacturers so the applicability is more general then made the obvious. 

It's a bit hard to keep up, but last I knew, Tohatsu=Nissan=Merc in the little engines.

Then there's the Tohatsu/Honda merger. My understanding is that anything 50 hp and under is a Tohatsu, even with silver paint and a Honda label. Our 60 hp Tohatsu is actually a Honda, as are all the bigger ones.

I guess they're all really NissTohMercDa's these daze. Except Evinrudes, which are Canadian.

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18 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

It's a bit hard to keep up, but last I knew, Tohatsu=Nissan=Merc in the little engines.

Then there's the Tohatsu/Honda merger. My understanding is that anything 50 hp and under is a Tohatsu, even with silver paint and a Honda label. Our 60 hp Tohatsu is actually a Honda, as are all the bigger ones.

I guess they're all really NissTohMercDa's these daze. Except Evinrudes, which are Canadian.

I believe that is correct ..tohatsu is the largest manufacturer of outboards. They supply the industry

 

its odd that the brand is not popular .  Commercial operators commonly use Tohatsu.  The 50 hp unit is very popular for work skiffs and rescue boats

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2 hours ago, willp14335 said:

I'm pretty sure the Dyer has a motor mount, doesn't it? I used to covet one when I was younger, although now I'm a bigger fan of the Trinka. 

Nope...rudder gudgeon fittings are in the way.   Need an offset and I believe my 4hp is too much for her (spec wise).  I have an 8hp in addition to the 4hp and I am not buying a 3rd outboard...

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3 hours ago, willp14335 said:

I'm pretty sure the Dyer has a motor mount, doesn't it? I used to covet one when I was younger, although now I'm a bigger fan of the Trinka. 

My Dyer had a motor mount.  I saw another out cruising that had a really elegant motor mount, and the owner (now in his 50s) said it was original.  It had two pads exactly located for whatever ancient outboard was on there.

My Dyer Midget towed terribly, it rarely wanted to hop onto a plane and would just drag a big hole in the water.  I replaced it with a Gig Harbor Ultralight and that tows a lot better (but doesn't have nearly the style points).  My outboard was a 2hp Honda, I sold it last summer since I just prefer rowing.

I've also owned a few rollup Zodiacs and they suck to row, but seemed to tow a little better than the Dyer (guessing based on old memories and pulling on the tow rope as I motor), but take up the least room when not in use and work well with an outboard.

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1 hour ago, sail69 said:

Nope...rudder gudgeon fittings are in the way.   Need an offset and I believe my 4hp is too much for her (spec wise).  I have an 8hp in addition to the 4hp and I am not buying a 3rd outboard...

Most small outboards can be mounted around the rudder gungeons, since the outboards have two clamps on the outside edges and none on centerline.  I originally had my outboard mounted off center on the Dyer, but moved it to the centerline.

I do think 4hp is a lot for that boat.

alex

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The motor I use on the pudgy sits either side of the gudgeons without a problem. I have 3.5 hp, which is twice what the boat needs, and most of the extra power is wasted. I usually run at 1/2 throttle, because the fuel lasts a lot longer to go 5 knots at half throttle than 6 at full speed. 

I don't have any good pictures of the engine fitting around the gudgeons, but you can see how the clamps are off centerline in this one. 

20525914_1605579132868370_1789802461277617734_n.jpg

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14 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Ive got an 8hp on a 320 rib.   With one  person onboard it hauls ass...seagulls take fright, women  scream , grab thier children and flee ashore 

with two crew the rib will only plane downwind.

it's good compromise.

 

motors above 9hp should be avoided.

That's interesting. I love to gun it with our 15 hp when I'm driving the inflatable alone. It goes fast. 

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10 hours ago, willp14335 said:

That's interesting. I love to gun it with our 15 hp when I'm driving the inflatable alone. It goes fast. 

That's fun isn't it?

There's lots of navel-gazing on SA about the decline of sailing, all focusing on sailing. Like no other boats exist.

Long, hot, calm summer days and fast powerboats were what killed my interest in sailing for many years.

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On 12/14/2017 at 6:46 AM, slug zitski said:

Ive got an 8hp on a 320 rib.   With one  person onboard it hauls ass...seagulls take fright, women  scream , grab thier children and flee ashore 

with two crew the rib will only plane downwind.

it's good compromise.

 

motors above 9hp should be avoided.

I have an 18 hp Nissan/Tohatsu.

Fast is good.

Faster is better.

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8 minutes ago, TQA said:

I have an 18 hp Nissan/Tohatsu.

Fast is good.

Faster is better.

No wake zones around old farts rowing real dinks, please.

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

No wake zones around old farts rowing real dinks, please.

"Real dinks"...now it's getting personal....;)

I love sailing and rowing dinghies with a passion (and grew up with them), but I have also come to love powerboats over the last few years. Someday I want to design and build a devolopable stitch and glue plywood "mini GT" type racing boat. I've done research, and 35-40 knots is possible with 15-20 hp on an 8' skiff with the right hull shape. The pic is of me driving my landlord's 34' Chris Craft last summer. 

download.jpg

Capture.JPG

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Yeah, yow, yao. I could post a pic of my real dink but I'd hafta bail it out first and with the weather in the 50s ... ain't happening. We're I to shoot a selfie- -it would be a first-- a bridge too far. A video? 'Soon as I read the manual. 

I don't mind going slowly. Ive nowhere I need to be, and no hurry to get there.

Whew! Nap time. 

 

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7 hours ago, willp14335 said:

I want to design and build a devolopable stitch and glue plywood "mini GT" type racing boat. I've done research, and 35-40 knots is possible with 15-20 hp on an 8' skiff with the right hull shape.

I'm planning a mini version of the classic Dargel TX flats skiff, built for me to use alone with my 15 hp.

I expect it will go close to 30 knots and will do it in half the water required by my current skiff.

I also expect that I might wish I had bought an engine one model year newer. The year they started to come with kill switches. Going that fast in a boat that has no sides could be a bad idea as I learn how it behaves in turns. The general answer for TX tunnel hulls is "not well."

This is the boat that inspired me. I thought it was a silly boat until I ran my 11' Whaler hard aground and it ran by me in shallower water, stirring mud with the hulls but not the engine. That got my attention. I thought only jet boats could do that.

dargelshlcrk.JPG

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15 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

But what if it hits a wave? Will the front fall off?

 

(Someone had to...)

The front is optional equipment. 

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54 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

But what if it hits a wave? Will the front fall off?

 

(Someone had to...)

You just row it out of the environment.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

But what if it hits a wave? Will the front fall off?

 

(Someone had to...)

mmmmhhhmmm... a frontal lobotomy 

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On 12/10/2017 at 7:40 PM, Uncooperative Tom said:

For the "pics or" crowd:

24862587_10212916073690625_1941579608127

RKoch told me to get rid of the silly gaff and get a better sail. But I LIKE the silly gaff!

The new toy is in the pond, awaiting the arrival of the new owners.

I tried rowing it around a bit. It didn't go well. I paddle. I don't row. And this little thing really, really dislikes going straight. And the oars seem very short, but what do I know? I don't row.

Poor kids are going to learn what "Those who can't do, teach" means.

Too windy this morning to even think about playing with the sail but our grandson will stay with us all week and we'll probably at least get to give it a shot.

 

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The new toy is in the pond, awaiting the arrival of the new owners.

I tried rowing it around a bit. It didn't go well. I paddle. I don't row. And this little thing really, really dislikes going straight. And the oars seem very short, but what do I know? I don't row.

Poor kids are going to learn what "Those who can't do, teach" means.

Too windy this morning to even think about playing with the sail but our grandson will stay with us all week and we'll probably at least get to give it a shot.

 

There's all kinds of formulas, but the simplest is oar length = 1.5 X distance between oar locks. So a typical 8' dinghy with 4' beam uses 6' oars. Takes a little practice to row well.

A dinghy half as wide as it is long isn't going to have a natural directional stability. Most have a skeg. About 4-6" deep, and 24-30" long should be about right. Cut a handhold for safety if you like. A metal or fg rubbing strip along bottom resists chafe.

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I like the Shaw & Tenney formula which you have you end up with oars a bit longer. With a 4’ beam you end up with oars about 7.5’.  It’s like having an overdrive gear when going long distances with heavy loads. 

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6' is a joke.  7 good for kids, 7.5 for most adults.  I'm a large guy and run 8s.  Before you say they're unmanageable, you should see my girlfriends 11 year old girl row.  Does take some practice.  

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38 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

XmasDink2017.jpg

I know, I know, no life jackets. Couldn't put life jackets on them. It would ruin the surprise! Nobody drowned.

Excellent rowing technique. You'd be the first thrown off the trireme.

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7 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Excellent rowing technique. You'd be the first thrown off the trireme.

What are you talking about? Those guys pulled on one oar and that's what I was doing!

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18 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Here is Santa's new 10'11" nesting dink. He is dropping by later to pick it up, I'll get some photos!

 

 

St-Nick-Nester.jpg

I'm a bit sick of Santa, but I'd like to see more of your dinghy, Ras.

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On 12/26/2017 at 7:17 PM, Russell Brown said:

I'm a bit sick of Santa, but I'd like to see more of your dinghy, Ras.

Finite Element Santa is the stuff of nightmares, but he is in a neat boat.

Stumbling

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Funny you should say that Stumbling. I guess you are referring to the blocky mesh Santa I used for a sense of scale on my dink. Hard to find NURB's based Santa's these days...

 

    Russ, the rowing pram with Santa was rejected by my client for being 'too easy to row'! Had to leave out a strake and re-configure for more OB power but still trying to not let it turn into a Carolina Skiff. Working on that now and will share later.

Nester1.thumb.jpg.5680fb5e5326a817184c5092249abbc9.jpg

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15 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

still trying to not let it turn into a Carolina Skiff.

Worse things could happen.

Just about every mullet and crab guy around here is running a Carolina Skiff 24 or bigger. All the other work boats got fired for not being as good.

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Many of the older FL boats with engines forward came up to NC after the Fl net ban. The "Mullet Mafia"...self styled. 

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19 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Funny you should say that Stumbling. I guess you are referring to the blocky mesh Santa I used for a sense of scale on my dink. Hard to find NURB's based Santa's these days...

 

    Russ, the rowing pram with Santa was rejected by my client for being 'too easy to row'! Had to leave out a strake and re-configure for more OB power but still trying to not let it turn into a Carolina Skiff. Working on that now and will share later.

Nester1.thumb.jpg.5680fb5e5326a817184c5092249abbc9.jpg

Too easy to row? Maybe you should find a different client. I'd like to see the easy to row version at some point. I have never been a pram fan, but they make some sense (obviously) and yet it's hard for me to find one that I like looking at. 

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William and John Atkin have designed a bunch of prams and dinghies. It would be hard not to find one you like. I rather like Katydidnt, a micro-pram of 6'6". It could be strip built or cold molded pretty easily, low materials cost, and small/light enough to stow on deck of boats with limited space. Looks good, too.

 

image.gif

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Too easy to row? Maybe you should find a different client. I'd like to see the easy to row version at some point. I have never been a pram fan, but they make some sense (obviously) and yet it's hard for me to find one that I like looking at. 

Hi Russ,

     I had been told that the pram would be nice if it could use one of the small Torqeedo OB's so I was figuring a max of about 4-6 HP being available at the prop which would never plane a hull that was also expected to displace 650 lbs at full capacity. Maybe with a small kid but it turned out that I read more into the Torqeedo request than warranted. Now that rowing is secondary with the client and the HP range is restated at 4-10 HP gas, then I left out one of the strakes and took out a lot of the rocker, especially aft. Basically re-tweaked the whole design to get a wider flat bottom especially at the stern and when you consider that a 10 HP outboard is really the same motor as a 15 HP (especially in 2 stroke) I can see this planing with maybe two normal sized people. I have still tried to keep enough taper in plan to the stern so as to not totally ruin rowing abilities and I hope the client comes around. Today I am going to use the Orca3D power and speed prediction tools to compare the two prams and see if I have swung the pendulum far enough to the planing side of the spectrum. 

    I watched your vids of the PT 11 planing and surfing under sail and wonder what it would do with a torquey Torqeedo 4HP. Maybe I can get a ride in one of the PT's next time I'm in your area. 

image.thumb.png.4bd52240567914752c5e5502952db2da.png

 

 

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Several years ago I designed and built a basic flat-bottom  rowboat for my nieces. 11' long, 4' beam. Because they were too young to use an ob, I designed it for rowing only, particularly with a passenger in back. I pushed the max beam back a bit, and rolled the rocker up a bit at stern to lessen the transom dragging. It rowed even better than I imagined. My brother, their dad, eyed it in mind of clamping an ob on it. I strenuously objected, telling him it would perform badly. He did, and it did.

Dinghies are so small, you can't design one for all around ideal performance. What rows nice won't motor well.  What sails well won't beach well. Best you can do is pick the primary function the dinghy is to serve and design to that, and live with the lesser characteristics the remainder of the time.

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Russ and RKoch

     Here is a photo that I sent the client after my sweet little rowing pram Ver1 was rejected. 

Image result for table top with outboard motor

    The edits are not that bad for Ver2 and I just now did my first 'Holtrip Analysis' which is a displacement speed/power prediction routine. With 600 displacement I get a resistance total of just 30lbs at a speed of 5 knots, about what I would expect from all the times I have grabbed the a dinghy painter to pull it in to shorten up when approaching a mooring. I also am going to illustrate for the client with the latest Torqeedo as seen in this profile on the boat. I've moved the midship rowing station fwd a bit to account for the relatively flat run since the earlier version to keep the transom out of the water. 40 deg half entry angle is a bit brutal though! Another requirement was to be able to step into the very bow of the boat so I need the breadth up fwd for stability when doing so.

image.thumb.png.8835115cea80380dada46689520998b4.png

 

    Now to move on to the Savitsky (planing) analysis and see just how much abuse this little pram can take!

 

 

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For stepping into the bow, or stepping off the bow onto dry beach, it's hard to beat a flat-bottom Opti-style pram. Great option for a short row from mooring to dinghy beach. Sucks to row a distance though.

Hmmm...how about grafting a rowboat bow under a pram bow? Bow transom enough above waterline to not hinder rowing, but when you step in the pram bow acts likes sponsons to increase WL beam forward and add stability. Rocker on bottom then could be pretty straight for good performance under power, yet not kill rowing performance. The sponsoned out pram bow would also throw spray well out to the sides, making a drier ride under motor.

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Finally got the Savitsky method to run with reasonable results. It didn't like the topsides panel or the transom and I had to just use the flat bottom and sides as you see in this screenshot. I guess it assumes that waterflow off of the second chine and transom would be thrown off as spray. I had to trim the prop up a couple degrees as one would expect to keep the boat trimmed going over the 'hump' as it reaches planing speeds and I moved the LCG forward just as you would expect to hold the bow down at that awkward speed. If one has ever spent any time in such a small planing dink you know that the 2" PVC pipe tiller extension and a jockey like posture as the boat accelerates is a must. Although the wide flat bottom is approaching the planing 'table top' in my photo above, I think the pram overall will still row if not overloaded and is tapered enough at the ends to not look like a ice chest. Hope the client agrees!

 

Nester2.thumb.jpg.fe7d6569d0851bbe9d324598708327a4.jpg

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You could also improve the rowing performance by moving the rowing position forward, pulling the transom out of the water for one rower.

With a few people onboard the rowing performance will match Comanche in the Derwent, but that’s life with a compromise hull.

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9 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Hi Russ,

     I had been told that the pram would be nice if it could use one of the small Torqeedo OB's so I was figuring a max of about 4-6 HP being available at the prop which would never plane a hull that was also expected to displace 650 lbs at full capacity. Maybe with a small kid but it turned out that I read more into the Torqeedo request than warranted. Now that rowing is secondary with the client and the HP range is restated at 4-10 HP gas, then I left out one of the strakes and took out a lot of the rocker, especially aft. Basically re-tweaked the whole design to get a wider flat bottom especially at the stern and when you consider that a 10 HP outboard is really the same motor as a 15 HP (especially in 2 stroke) I can see this planing with maybe two normal sized people. I have still tried to keep enough taper in plan to the stern so as to not totally ruin rowing abilities and I hope the client comes around. Today I am going to use the Orca3D power and speed prediction tools to compare the two prams and see if I have swung the pendulum far enough to the planing side of the spectrum. 

    I watched your vids of the PT 11 planing and surfing under sail and wonder what it would do with a torquey Torqeedo 4HP. Maybe I can get a ride in one of the PT's next time I'm in your area. 

image.thumb.png.4bd52240567914752c5e5502952db2da.png

 

 

I think that you are on the right track for use by the average modern motor-head boater. The planing performance could be really good and there's not many hard dinghies designed for planing. Graham Byrnes has sold lots of plans and kits for planing capable, pointy bowed dinghies, but I don't know how they perform with weight and larger HP. I think your planing pram has a definite place in the market, even if my tastes differ.

I like good rowing and sailing dinghies. Even a dinghy that could perform well with a tiny electric outboard, but the idea of hoisting a 100 pound outboard off an on the dinghy every time I want to go somewhere is not appealing to me.

I got to do a long cruise with a nesting rowing dinghy and the interest in my dinghy led me to look hard at what people go through with inflatables and larger outboards. Going fast is a big compromise. All that being said I think your 5 panel hull shape will work great. I liked the 7 panel one better, but I don't think that I represent the average boater in my taste in dinghies.

If you come this way, please get in touch so we can meet.

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That is a great looking pram. The biggest drawback to our Nutshell - is, it's only 9'6" long. There were many times with a family of four and a load I wished for another 2 feet of boat.

To my eye, after a life time of prams(an acquired taste), the raised stern transoms, bow and stern, are what make the Nutshell a nice tender. With a normal load, say two adults and some gear, the stern rides above the waterline. It rows nicely. I use the forward station often with loads, mostly to balance the boat(load in the middle, passenger aft). When the stern goes down, rowing becomes a chore. With 7'6" oars, you have to cross your hands at the end of the stroke as the bow is narrower. 

38677803874_6111c0287e_b.jpg

The bow transom is raised even higher and never submerges. 

38508324915_3c90a50bd7_h.jpg

I've never had any kind of outboard on it. I know it wouldn't plane but I suppose a 2 hp would work but rowing is what we like to do.

39356149782_58fc37a1ed_h.jpg

If I went back 20 years to when I built this Nutshell - knowing now, it would never go on deck - I'd have look seriously at a longer pram. With the stern out of the water, a pram tows with so little resistance, another couple feet wouldn't effect the lack of drag. 

37122575416_f07009cee0_h.jpg

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18 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Basically re-tweaked the whole design to get a wider flat bottom especially at the stern and when you consider that a 10 HP outboard is really the same motor as a 15 HP (especially in 2 stroke) I can see this planing with maybe two normal sized people.

 

The latest 20 hp four strokes scarcely weigh more than the 8/9.8's. If you build it to take one, someone like me will come along and put the other.

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     Thanks for all the nice response guys. I think I have narrowed the design down to optimise the powered performance for a 9.9/15 HP engine yet still perform well at non-planing speeds with the 3HP Torqeedo. The NUTSHELL pram is my inspiration for the earlier V1 that got Russ' attention, and I really hated to lose a strake per side but to get an effective planing chine and to simplify the design there was little choice. I have long admired a dink/pram design that I had seen that had a small well right in the bow that housed a narrow wheel that barely projected below its well. The idea was to row until you run aground and then step over the transom with your oars which get inserted through holes in the top corners of the transom and then you can wheelbarrow your way up past the high tide line. I found a link to a video of the design but the wheel chosen looks like major overkill in my opinion.

https://www.offcenterharbor.com/videos/ladybug-wheelbarrow-boat/

     I wanted to do something similar for this nester but that went over like a lead balloon, should have realized then that rowing and beaching were way down the list from what Russ calls 'motorhead' mentality. I still wanted to add twin skegs aft (for beached stability) and perhaps sneak some all plastic roller blade wheels on the trailing edge of the skegs and run my oar handles out the pram bow to achieve the same thing with less objection over the wheels, but had reservations about the drag at planing speeds. Still working on that idea to let the small wheels ride in the wash of the skegs. I went ahead and ran another speed/power prediction with the skegs and would have thought that the wetted surface might have a negative effect at speed but to my surprise, the shallow skegs seem to trap outflowing water towards the chines in the last 3 feet of the flat planing surface of the bottom and actually improve the planing performance and top speed! This will have to be verified by building a plywood prototype with easily removed skegs and real world evaluation. 

    Mr Kringle, thanks for the fine photos of the NUTSHELL and is that a CONCORDIA doing the towing? In case you missed it, the V1 of my pram design had Santa at the helm and I plan on him being my first customer after he recovers from his big event at the start of the week. I've got some renders of he and his new ride in the works as my Holidays and New Year greeting card which I'll post here.

    Russ, the 7 panel design one you have been so supportive is on the back burner for now but will get re-examined in due time after I get a satisfied client. He is aiming at more of a mass market (motorheads) and the purists will have to wait a bit for the more refined early model. Thanks for the video of your PT running with the electric motor. The speeds you achieve with that motor seem to be well in line with what I would expect and the SPP (speed/power prediction) results I get for the V1 version. Can you give me a 'bollard pull' figure for that motor? I get a 250 watt figure from the Electric Paddle site which is in keeping with the 900 watt figure that the Torqeedo Travel 1003S is said to produce.

    Tom. I have a 8 HP Yamaha 4 stroke on my Brown SeaClipper 28 that is the heaviest OB I have ever owned. I had a Tohatsu 18 a long time ago that was the champ in the power/weight department and was really more like a 25 HP on the water. This design is hopefully destined for roto molding which will require a big investment in tooling and marketing and will need a USCG rating and I'm thinking a 9.9 HP from them is going to be the limit. Foam flotation and righting will be a big factor in that quest and is in the works soon. The carb and throttle plate on most 9.9's can be changed and it will be the same as a 15 (2 strokes anyway) which is a way around that. A true 18-20 HP would be a real liability in this boat.

image.thumb.png.db691424395f0597025b048394a03340.png

     

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I experimented with the dinghy wheelbarrow thing.

found the simplest option was to mount a wheel on an axle across the forward gunwhales, turn the boat over, use oars under the mid thwart and tied to the transom top.

works well.

the only issue with this option and with transom wheels is leverage, you lift the whole weight of the boat when moving it.

I now use a trolley that sits just aft of the mid thwart, tied across the boat through eye bolts that go into the row lock sockets. It sits right at the balance point, boat is a pleasure to move.

i have a house across the road from a launch ramp, and a 36 footer moored off the ramp, so I am highly motivated in this research.

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5 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

    Tom. I have a 8 HP Yamaha 4 stroke on my Brown SeaClipper 28 that is the heaviest OB I have ever owned. I had a Tohatsu 18 a long time ago that was the champ in the power/weight department and was really more like a 25 HP on the water. This design is hopefully destined for roto molding which will require a big investment in tooling and marketing and will need a USCG rating and I'm thinking a 9.9 HP from them is going to be the limit. Foam flotation and righting will be a big factor in that quest and is in the works soon. The carb and throttle plate on most 9.9's can be changed and it will be the same as a 15 (2 strokes anyway) which is a way around that. A true 18-20 HP would be a real liability in this boat.

Yes, I know it would.

Sincerely,

The owner of a boat that's rated for 8, has a 15, and might have a 20 in its future.

I'm far from the craziest motorhead even in my small circle...

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Tom,

    Your 'need for speed' made me wonder if I should put anti-trip chines on the pram for the guys who want to exceed the design rating. I had a look at the Tohatsu 15 and they claim to be the lightest 15 HP 4 stroke (EFI) in the 15 class at 95 lbs. Then I look further and see the 20 HP is the same 333cc block and weight so I have to had it to you on your tip. I think my Yamaha 8HP is 83 lbs and I dread wrestling it off its sled on my SC28. Putting in on a dinghy transom would be a gut buster or in the drink situation. 

   Here is the pram sporting that Tohatsu.

image.thumb.png.371b3c46549bb86639b10664562243ce.png

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

I had a look at the Tohatsu 15 and they claim to be the lightest 15 HP 4 stroke (EFI) in the 15 class at 95 lbs.

This was a recent development. Suzuki made them do it. Their 20 is a nice, quiet engine and weighs 2 lbs more than the latest Tohasu/Nissan/Merc.

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My GV11 that I designed as a personal dinghy then later resized to a 10' dinghy to hang on the the stern davits of my catamaran. Rows "OK" with big spoon blade 7.5' scull oars.

About 25 mph with a single person and a 15 HP 2 stroke. 10 degree deadrise at transom, shallow vee, 4 panel hull.

A single person with a 15 HP has to know small powerboats - turn it too fast and it will skid out or the sideways G force will dump you in the water :)

gv11.jpg.c4821cde4f447d2d6b815eb798d711aa.jpg

GV10 with oars. Beamy boat so you need long oars.

GV10-1.jpg.bb55f266482253fa8dc6ef045d75f0b6.jpg

We used the main halyard to lower a 15 HP on to it. Worked well with 2 persons doing the work. 

Some clown dropped a 40 HP on the same hull. Went very quickly I was told but he did have some trim issues!

All I can say is it's hard to design a good planing/rowboat. Pick one!

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11 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Tom,

    Your 'need for speed' made me wonder if I should put anti-trip chines on the pram for the guys who want to exceed the design rating.

You might consider a console.

Mainly because

5 hours ago, Zonker said:

A single person with a 15 HP has to know small powerboats - turn it too fast and it will skid out or the sideways G force will dump you in the water :)

My 12 footer runs just over 26 knots light and it's terrifying in a straight line. Turning would be a bad idea. I hope the 10 footer that replaces it will touch 30. And it won't have sides.

But I have my own limits and getting back to the thread topic of "dinghies" I'd say that a console and wheel makes high speeds much safer but a console doesn't go on a dink. This is just wrong.

Ten Thousand for a four year old

00000_h5wXuLKgHc1_1200x900.jpg

That's a 40 hp. But that's just not a dink to me. Too complex, too many moving parts, too heavy, too much stuff in general and waaay too expensive. The ad says a new one is $19k.

 

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On 12/30/2017 at 12:41 AM, RKoch said:

For stepping into the bow, or stepping off the bow onto dry beach, it's hard to beat a flat-bottom Opti-style pram. Great option for a short row from mooring to dinghy beach. Sucks to row a distance though.

Hmmm...how about grafting a rowboat bow under a pram bow? Bow transom enough above waterline to not hinder rowing, but when you step in the pram bow acts likes sponsons to increase WL beam forward and add stability. Rocker on bottom then could be pretty straight for good performance under power, yet not kill rowing performance. The sponsoned out pram bow would also throw spray well out to the sides, making a drier ride under motor.

There was a short article in March/April 2003 issue of Woodenboat magazine that had a Louisiana Chalon duck boat that closely resembles what you talked about.   It looked like someone merged a giant's swimming kick board with a pirogue, or a panga with a extremely thickend spray rail.   The bow had the sharpness of a pirogue with a large amount of reserve buoyancy well above waterline.   The beam of the pirogue section merged in with the width of the deck about a quarter of the way back.   I was really intrigued by it, as it had a drop in inboard engine, like a go-devil mud boat engine, but inboard.   You had a lever that you could raise the prop and rudder to clear it from weeds while you were running.   I have not found a picture for it on the internet, although there are a number of mentions.

Stumbling

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7 hours ago, olsurfer said:

Tiny dink for a tiny tri.

102_1675 (2) (1024x768).jpg

102_1678 (2) (800x600).jpg

Interesting boat. That plywood is screaming in pain and that rudder looks like it came off a boat three times the size but it's got a funky charm.

What's the upper line to the rudder for? What's the deal with the two pipes, are they oarlocks of some kind (I don't see any others)? Does it track at all? Is that plywood seam at the max beam point immersed when loaded?What happens if you take a wave broadside?

Looks to me more like it should be part of the tri itself rather than the dink.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:18 AM, sail69 said:

Restoring a Dyer Dhow sailing dinghy (lots of fun and a great winter project)...and we have an Avon inflatable floor with 4hp.   Can see when we want both when bopping about.  Anyone try towing both?   Besides the obvious mechanics seems like its doable except for the silly look factor (just us...no kids to deflect silly look too).

Was thinking of trying  just the hard with oars and see how that works out, but the sailing rig and rudder will be underfoot or need to go on mother-ship before rowing.

Such problems...

 

 

We used to tow the Dyer and a Bombard inflatable. The Bombard was a POS, but it was good for the dog(s) to ride in while we were in the Dyer towing them. Also for dog MOBs, the only way to get a 100 pound Chessie back aboard was to haul them into the Bombard first. Our Chessie was off the boat in a heartbeat if he saw a likely looking duck before I could grab him.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:21 AM, willp14335 said:

I'm pretty sure the Dyer has a motor mount, doesn't it? I used to covet one when I was younger, although now I'm a bigger fan of the Trinka. 

We used a Seagull and then a Honda 2.5 HP on our Dyer and both fit fine. The gudgeons did not cause a problem for us. I actually can't remember if I had to offset the engine or not, but I don't think I did.

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On 12/15/2017 at 6:10 AM, Uncooperative Tom said:

That's fun isn't it?

There's lots of navel-gazing on SA about the decline of sailing, all focusing on sailing. Like no other boats exist.

Long, hot, calm summer days and fast powerboats were what killed my interest in sailing for many years.

We used to make raft-ups of a couple sailboats and a couple ski-boats. Windy-choppy, move the anchor to the ski boats and sail for the day. Hot and calm, go ski instead ;)

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15 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Tom,

    Your 'need for speed' made me wonder if I should put anti-trip chines on the pram for the guys who want to exceed the design rating. I had a look at the Tohatsu 15 and they claim to be the lightest 15 HP 4 stroke (EFI) in the 15 class at 95 lbs. Then I look further and see the 20 HP is the same 333cc block and weight so I have to had it to you on your tip. I think my Yamaha 8HP is 83 lbs and I dread wrestling it off its sled on my SC28. Putting in on a dinghy transom would be a gut buster or in the drink situation. 

   Here is the pram sporting that Tohatsu.

image.thumb.png.371b3c46549bb86639b10664562243ce.png

 

 

 

95 pounds for a 4 stroke 15 isn't bad.My 2 stroke 15s are around 72 pounds or so.

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4 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

You might consider a console.

Mainly because

My 12 footer runs just over 26 knots light and it's terrifying in a straight line. Turning would be a bad idea. I hope the 10 footer that replaces it will touch 30. And it won't have sides.

But I have my own limits and getting back to the thread topic of "dinghies" I'd say that a console and wheel makes high speeds much safer but a console doesn't go on a dink. This is just wrong.

Ten Thousand for a four year old

00000_h5wXuLKgHc1_1200x900.jpg

That's a 40 hp. But that's just not a dink to me. Too complex, too many moving parts, too heavy, too much stuff in general and waaay too expensive. The ad says a new one is $19k.

 

A friend of mine bought a 14 foot "dinghy" like that. He has so much fun with it he sold the big boat. I met a guy at my marina doing the Great Loop in one of those.

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The one line aft raises the aluminum section of the rudder. The other two lines go to spring loaded foot pedals steering the rudder. The two tubes in back are for fishing poles. The plywood seam at max beam is 2 or 3 inches underwater. It's really more of a flat water fishing canoe. It only weighs 26lbs so I can carry it down to the river from my house when the steelhead run. After too many beers, I started lookin at removing the rudder, beefing up the transom to mount this little guy and scaring myself silly chasing them fish.5a491fd23f5ac_102_1683(2)(768x1024).thumb.jpg.df14dbf086d2e0435d504e4162614b27.jpg.

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

A friend of mine bought a 14 foot "dinghy" like that. He has so much fun with it he sold the big boat. I met a guy at my marina doing the Great Loop in one of those.

My point exactly. That's not an auxiliary boat. It's a boat.

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I stumbled across one of those 40 horsepower, console "shoreboats".  Adrift.  Half full of water.   It had unknowingly washed off the swim step of a large power yacht.

It towed surprisingly well considering its waterlogged state.  I was not expecting more than perhaps a beer, cheeseburger, and a thank you - for my trouble.  However, the owner was extremely grateful for having his boat recovered, and he expressed it with his wallet to the tune of about 1/4 of new replacement cost.

It told the guy that he can call me for assistance anytime.

Steve

rZihZEI.jpg

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On 12/30/2017 at 3:54 AM, RKoch said:

William and John Atkin have designed a bunch of prams and dinghies. It would be hard not to find one you like. I rather like Katydidnt, a micro-pram of 6'6". It could be strip built or cold molded pretty easily, low materials cost, and small/light enough to stow on deck of boats with limited space. Looks good, too.

 

image.gif

Those stern sections look a lot like the Portland Pudgy. 

 

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3 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Re power:weight in OB...

the Hobie Power Skiff. Go thou and Google. 

A friend had a Hobie Power Skiff, great boat. He would volunteer to be a mark boat at the YC's bigger regattas, I'd volunteer to be on the boat....spent many hours on that boat. Ideal boat for that purpose.

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7 hours ago, willp14335 said:

 

Those stern sections look a lot like the Portland Pudgy. 

 

WillP, William and John Atkin were great designers, be good to study them a bit. 

Here is listing of their designs.

  http://www.atkinboatplans.com

 

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I made a PT11 from the kit with a view to using it first on the Tennessee River and then as a nesting tender to a salt water yacht. It was quite expensive and took me about 18 months/600 manhours to build doing it exactly by the book, by myself, after work and most weekends - much longer than I had anticipated. It rows easily at 5 knots in flat water and sails well too. I haven't used it as as tender yet (my newly-acquired Bristol 45.5. came with an RIB) but I'm now doubting its suitability for this function. It can only take a 2 HP motor max and has limited capacity for people and stores. It also looks so pretty I'd hate to subject it to the abuse a tender must take.  

20171023_210124_1515981084410_resized.jpg

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I wish I could afford the weight penalty ‘cause that Hobie Skiff would have otherwise been the perfect dink. Handled really well, very nimble.  Did surprisingly well in shitty weather; got caught in a t-storm and the boat took it like a champ. 

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On January 14, 2018 at 8:45 PM, Mirror16 said:

I made a PT11 from the kit with a view to using it first on the Tennessee River and then as a nesting tender to a salt water yacht. It was quite expensive and took me about 18 months/600 manhours to build doing it exactly by the book, by myself, after work and most weekends - much longer than I had anticipated. It rows easily at 5 knots in flat water and sails well too. I haven't used it as as tender yet (my newly-acquired Bristol 45.5. came with an RIB) but I'm now doubting its suitability for this function. It can only take a 2 HP motor max and has limited capacity for people and stores. It also looks so pretty I'd hate to subject it to the abuse a tender must take.  

20171023_210124_1515981084410_resized.jpg

Nice work. Take it on the boat, not as your workhorse, but as your fun dink. I have an inflatable for chores - getting provisions, laundry, ferrying, all that shit. I also tow a Trinka 10 with the sailing rig for rowing and sailing fun. Guess which gets more use? Hint: it ain't  made of hypalon.

Where's the big boat live?

 

 

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On January 14, 2018 at 6:45 PM, Mirror16 said:

I made a PT11 from the kit with a view to using it first on the Tennessee River and then as a nesting tender to a salt water yacht. It was quite expensive and took me about 18 months/600 manhours to build doing it exactly by the book, by myself, after work and most weekends - much longer than I had anticipated. It rows easily at 5 knots in flat water and sails well too. I haven't used it as as tender yet (my newly-acquired Bristol 45.5. came with an RIB) but I'm now doubting its suitability for this function. It can only take a 2 HP motor max and has limited capacity for people and stores. It also looks so pretty I'd hate to subject it to the abuse a tender must take.  

20171023_210124_1515981084410_resized.jpg

Hello 'Mirror 16',

I am sorry you have doubts about your PT 11. Your experience noted here differs from most of the feedback we get. We hardly heard from you throughout your project and it would have been good for us to know if the build presented any problems. Build times vary wildly depending on a person's work style and confidence. Based on lots of feedback build times could be 180 hours and up. One woman finished a nicely built PT11 in 4 weeks and, yes, I was impressed. There are a lot of longevity details in the build that take extra time as our intention is to build value instead of a disposable dinghy. One of the more satisfying things for us about our business is that lots of our clients have really enjoyed the build process.  See a customer produced video of building one. (https://vimeo.com/187076801)

The PT 11 is designed to be a hardy tender and we have used our own prototypes a lot. For us, cruising is to slow down and enjoy ourselves, explore, go dinghy sailing, etc. We designed the boat with good rowing capability and prefer to discourage using a motor. We stuff a lot of gear and food into ours as well. The PT 11 is our personal ideal in a dinghy but we also know it is not everyone's ideal. I do hope you have a lot of fun in the boat.  You are always welcome to contact us. I think you know we value good service. More videos if anyone is curious: https://www.youtube.com/user/ptwatercraft            Sincerely, Ashlyn Brown - Port Townsend Watercraft

 

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On 1/16/2018 at 1:14 PM, Russell Brown said:

Hello 'Mirror 16',

I am sorry you have doubts about your PT 11. Your experience noted here differs from most of the feedback we get. We hardly heard from you throughout your project and it would have been good for us to know if the build presented any problems. Build times vary wildly depending on a person's work style and confidence. Based on lots of feedback build times could be 180 hours and up. One woman finished a nicely built PT11 in 4 weeks and, yes, I was impressed. There are a lot of longevity details in the build that take extra time as our intention is to build value instead of a disposable dinghy. One of the more satisfying things for us about our business is that lots of our clients have really enjoyed the build process.  See a customer produced video of building one. (https://vimeo.com/187076801)

The PT 11 is designed to be a hardy tender and we have used our own prototypes a lot. For us, cruising is to slow down and enjoy ourselves, explore, go dinghy sailing, etc. We designed the boat with good rowing capability and prefer to discourage using a motor. We stuff a lot of gear and food into ours as well. The PT 11 is our personal ideal in a dinghy but we also know it is not everyone's ideal. I do hope you have a lot of fun in the boat.  You are always welcome to contact us. I think you know we value good service. More videos if anyone is curious: https://www.youtube.com/user/ptwatercraft            Sincerely, Ashlyn Brown - Port Townsend Watercraft

Russell, I only just came across your post here other otherwise I would've responded sooner. I didn't mean to sound as critical of the PT11 as I evidently did. It rows and sails well, looks great (much interest and positive comments from others) and, as I still haven't actually used it as a nesting yacht tender, it may well be up to that task too. I'm sure it took me a lot longer to build than most people due to my work style and schedule. It wasn't because of any problems. Your instruction book is very clear and well-written, everything fitted as it should and the couple of times I asked you guys basic questions early on, you responded quickly. Here is a photo showing the removable wheels I fitted to launch it easily in one piece by myself at a boat ramp. 

Webp.net-resizeimage.jpg

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I am almost very happy with my Walker Bay 8. It's a great boat, very dependable for full time cruising. The only problem is that I cannot transform it in a nesting one. I cruise on a small sailboat and it would be great to be able to store the dinghy on the cabin top under the boom. Right now is where the WB lives while underway offshore but this prevent us from having a dodger as it extends on top of the companionway. Not a problem for the tropical weather we are in right now, but we are planning some higher latitudes trips so the dodger would come handy.

I decided to build a nesting dinghy using 1/4inch nidacore and fiberglass and I will use my WB as a jig/female mold because I really like the shape and performance. The idea is to place strips of nidacore follwing the boat curves, using strips of lumber as keel and stringers to hold in place the core following the curve of the hull. Once l laminate the inside I will flip it and laminate the outside. The result will be slightly smaller boat, which is ok for us. The opposite would be true if we would use it as a male plug, but even if that would make the work probably easier, we would love to keep the beam narrower rather than wider.

Despite having quite a good idea of the process, I couldn't find any information on the internet about similar experiences. Either because it's a terrible idea, or because people keep it under the radar.

I will start the project in few weeks, if anybody knows of any previous attempt, please send it this way.

Thanks

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3 hours ago, Cuntyhunk said:

I am almost very happy with my Walker Bay 8. It's a great boat, very dependable for full time cruising. The only problem is that I cannot transform it in a nesting one. I cruise on a small sailboat and it would be great to be able to store the dinghy on the cabin top under the boom. Right now is where the WB lives while underway offshore but this prevent us from having a dodger as it extends on top of the companionway. Not a problem for the tropical weather we are in right now, but we are planning some higher latitudes trips so the dodger would come handy.

I decided to build a nesting dinghy using 1/4inch nidacore and fiberglass and I will use my WB as a jig/female mold because I really like the shape and performance. The idea is to place strips of nidacore follwing the boat curves, using strips of lumber as keel and stringers to hold in place the core following the curve of the hull. Once l laminate the inside I will flip it and laminate the outside. The result will be slightly smaller boat, which is ok for us. The opposite would be true if we would use it as a male plug, but even if that would make the work probably easier, we would love to keep the beam narrower rather than wider.

Despite having quite a good idea of the process, I couldn't find any information on the internet about similar experiences. Either because it's a terrible idea, or because people keep it under the radar.

I will start the project in few weeks, if anybody knows of any previous attempt, please send it this way.

Thanks

Walker Bay and performance are two words rarely found in close proximity.

But on to more mundane matters. WHy on earth put yourself through the hassle of cloning a WB. WHy not build something like the Chameleon? You can sail rings around any WB and it will carry three in safety without any buoyancy tube. 

Chameleon plans

ANd yes I have rowed and sailed a Chameleon when I was loaned one when my OB crapped out.

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